Brightwork - oil or laquer?

[MarkCreeker]

I see a lot of pretty brightwork in the pictures posted here. I've just cleaned the comings on #202, and had planned to apply oil. My thought was that the oil finish would be easier to maintain while offering comparable protection.

I'd appreciate hearing opinions on oil vs. laquer, application technique, etc.

[Bill]

For me, Cetole has been the solution. The tung oil approach just seemed to build up gunk and needed an annual cleaning. If you keep applying coats of Cetole (before any weathering), it never needs to be redone. Of course, the operative word is "before." I get close :p

[MarkCreeker]

Thanks Bill. I've heard many praise Cetol, and also Armada. Do you notice/mind an orange hue to the wood after Cetol is applied?

[Bill]

It does not really look "orange" to me, and the grain shows just like varnish.

[Mike Goodwin]

If you dont like the orange cast of Cetol use the West Marine house brand , I think they call it Wood Pro , it is browner and less pigment .

[MarkCreeker]

O.K., last questions...did you sand down the comings to bare wood before refinishing? Would it make sense to remove them from the hull 1st?

[Bill]

For me, yes I removed all the wood trim, chemically removed and bleached the old stuff, then sanded and coated according to directions.

[Scott Galloway]

I applied Semco Teak Sealer last fall (September 2002). It held up very well. I used their "Gold Tone" but like Cetol,it was too orange for my taste.

As a result, I switched to the "Natural" shade this year. Teak looks like fresh-cut teak wood after an application (two coats) of Semnco Natural shade Teak Sealer. The product holds up well and can be scrubbed with soap and water. Additional coats can be applied later without stripping. I used teak oil for years on various boats including my father's 35 foot wood deck cutter, which we completely stripped and reoiled every year or two. We used a variety of teak oils, and tung oil.

Semco used to make the best teak oil, and now, in my opinion, they make the best sealer. West Marine carried it, or you can go the the Semco page on the web.

I bought my quart of Semco at West Marine. It covers well, and a quart will last you a long time.

One cautionary note. however: Don't spill it on your painted or gelcoat surfaces. Apply carefully with a small brush. It soaks into the wood, but the excess runs off easily, so don't apply enough to create excess.

I found that the Goldtone Semco Sealer stained old oxydized gelcoat if I allowed it to run. Mineral spirits did not remove it. I had to use Ajax, and it came off fairly easily with that cleansing powder, but it was a lot of work.

I had no trouble re-sealing my coamings with the natural tone, with no spills, and without stainling the surrounding gelcoat. You apply two coats in one day and that is it. If you neglect your Semco Teak Sealer, Semco makes a two part stripper for the hard jobs. I originally used their stripper to completely strip my untreated but lichen-encrusted coamings last fall,and the stripper works as indicated with no side effects to boat or wood.

[MarkCreeker]

Varnish Quiz
by Bill Rogers

1) When I look at other boats:
a) I adore varnish with loving looks (5pts)
b) I look at other things besides varnish (3pts)
c) I think weathered teak looks grand (1pt)

2) The varnish on my boat is done by:
a) By me, myself and I alone (1pt)
b) By me and my spouse (3pts)
c) I pay professionals (4pts)
d) I make my crew do it (5pts)

3) When I think of my boat, I recall:
a) The big storm I survived (3pts)
b) Quiet evenings at a pretty anchorage (3pts)
c) Grand times sailing (1pt)
d) Puttering around dockside, socializing and working, enjoying a day away from household chores (5pts)

4) I am:
a) 21-30 years old (5pts)
b) 31-50 years old (3pts)
c) 51-60 years old (1pt)
d) 60+ (0pts)

5) I have:
a) Never stripped varnish or cetol (5pts)
b) Did it once or twice before (3pts)
c) Stripped and varnished several times (1pt)

6) I am now:
a) Married with kids and job (1pt)
b) Married but wife and kids can do without me.(2pts)
c) Single (3pts)
d) Unemployed or retired (5pts)

7) I visit my boat:
a) Live on it! (5pts)
b) Every week (3pts)
c) Every one or two months (1pts)
d) Never (-50 pts)

8) My boat is:
a) Under cover (5pts)
b) In a shady area (3pts)
c) Exposed to sun and rain (1pt)

9) The weather in my area is:
a) Sunny and warm everyday (5pts)
b) Nice in summer, cold in winter (3pts)
c) Cold, damp, windy all year around (1pt)

Scoring:

45-31 points
You are of highly regarded social status and know how to live up to your standards. Varnishing is the way to go! You would be ashamed if you fell in with the low-life cetol crowd. Do not listen to the ill advice of the lower dregs. GO FOR IT!

30-20 points
You are wise and kind. You listen well and are out to explore the limits of your freedom and enjoyment. However you question too many things in life and the world looks increasingly gray. You do not mix with the under-30 crowd. Deciding whether to varnish or cetol your boat is more difficult than voting in a presidential election.

19-10 points
You are in purgatory, neither blessed nor damned. You are a man who knows more than he cares to admit. You do not take advice from others. You are a man with great foresight and do not take kindly to making the same mistake twice. You know how to cetol a boat and are good at making excuses.

10 or less
You are a seasoned old salt. Wise in experience and ways. Newbies flock to you to hear your heroic sailing stories. Nobody wants your advice on how to keep a boat.

I don't know, deciding on who to vote for is pretty easy...

[ebb]

I have used Cetol for outdoor furniture, where given what we used to use (remember: 1/3 varnish, 1/3 turps, 1/3 linseed oil?) it's nothing short of miraculous.

Recently went to the west marine alternative emporium - selected Cetol Lite (packaged in a white can, I think)- clerk nodded and smiled like a bornagen, not as orange, quoth he.

Slathered it carefully on my so professionly prepared beltsanded surface: BEHOLD...the same damn ORANGE. But it lasts. It's one hell of a sealer. I sanded it off but it still seems sealed. Fully exposed all summer. Camoflaged it with pigmented oil stain, no problem. Used it also over grey stained work one time for smooth finish and satin look (mahogany.)

How about some nice varnished GREY teak?:cool:

[Theis]

I just have to tune in to this one. My Ariel has mahogany brighwork. In your inquiry, you did not specify teak, but that was the presumption in many of the responses.

I varnished the mahogany brightwork outside with Epifanes = a Dutch varnish - which is far superior to any American made varnish I know of (I have tried the Captain Z, the Interlux, etc. and they are not even competitive, in my opinion). Do not use a poly. Use only a genuine spar varnish. It has now lasted eight years, and only needs a touch up for next year. Then it may last another eight years. I think Epifanes has a special varnish for teak, but I am not certain. You might contact Epifanes - I believe they have an east coast office. I found them very helpful when I was wondering what I should use.

I do have a teak interior, and removed all the varnish, or whatever my friend put on it. I now use natural teak oil -once or twice a year and it shines. The problem with the varnish or whatever was that it started stripping off and became spotty as I recall.

However, I do have to admit that the teak floor boards outside, which I also oil, look weathered pretty quickly. Not bad, but weathered and gray.

Practical Sailor had a good issue on the subject of teak coverings.

[Mike Goodwin]

I agree with you , there is nothing better than Epifanes varnish , I use the one that requires no sanding between coats within 48 hrs . I do sand if needed .
This is my name board with 6 coats of Epifanes and before the letters are gilded .
There is so little brightwork on these boats , there is no reason not to use the best .
For a good lasting job 6 coats is the minimum and 8 to 10 is best and I have had such things as varnished transoms last over 10 years .

[commanderpete]

WOW!

Where can I get one of those name boards? Can you whittle me one up in your spare time?

I've used varnish and cetol over the years. My only problem with cetol was that it didn't hold up to even light occasional abrasion (like the tops of the coaming boards).

I thought I'd try this new "miracle product" called Bristol Finish. I put on ten coats of this very expensive crap and its not holding up. I'm pretty upset. I had completely stripped the wood before I put it on. Now I'm afraid I may have to do it again.

I should have gone back to varnish.

[MarkCreeker]

I had found an article that proposed that varnish was really not much more difficult to apply than Cetol - prep, number of coats, etc. was the same. Still, I had just about decided on Cetol, tho I was worried about the "orange" color described.

Thanks for keeping the varnish idea alive. I like the thought of a traditional finish on a classic Alberg boat.

[ebb]

To me the problem with Cetol is that it looks like Cetol. Instantly recognizable like a Pepsi can. It mellows to a not so ugly orange. Varnish looks like a lot of hard work, time and dedication. It looks like love and damn foolery.

It's been pointed out that the problem with the deteriation of the varnish is not so much the coating but the sun attacking the surface of the wood under the coating. Therefore UV inhibitors of varius sorts that look muddy and orange to protect the wood.

For years Smith & Co have touted their CPES product as a varnish saver. Seal the wood first with penetrating epoxy.

By the way, Smith has a polyurethane varnish they're proud of. I think P,S. tested it or it's being tested for longevity with a bunch of others.

Wouldn't you rather have something easy to sand than some plastic film that cracks and turns milky and lifts but grips hard in hard to scrape places??

Cetol just lays there doesn't it? Never saw it peel.

[Bill]

Last time I checked, Cetol was winning the durability test at PS. When it "wears" you just add a coat or two to the offending area. No fuss, no muss. Great for us lazy skippers :p

[Theis]

My suggestion is that you specifically avoid polyurethane or any of the polys. I don't care how new they claim it is, or the UV protection or whatever excuse is used. Consider it a high risk finish, and look elsewhere, in my opinion.

What happens with poly in about two to three years is that the poly will crack. That lets in moisture. The moisture will spread and the poly will peel or seemingly disappear leaving discolored wood. I have been told this by guys in the business. This problem has nothing to do with the undercoating or UV as I understand it. As the poly peels, cracks, whatever, you are getting set up for another "take it down to the wood and start again". I've been there, done it, seen it. And I've heard a plethora of "this is a new type of poly that doesn't do that". Redoing poly that has started to peel, crack, whatever is a bear - a grizzly bear!

The reason spar varnish is called spar varnish is that it was used on spars, and spars bend. The varnish, although softer and less wear resistant, remains flexible and will not crack as the spar bends - even in freezing weather. A key in spar varnish, I am told by Epifanes, is the percent of solid matter in the can. The way varnish is cheapened is to reduce the solid matter and replace it with solvent, and secondly to use an inferior solvent (tung oil, as I recall, is the key). Epifanes also has UV filters - and I can't recall the details about the effectiveness of UV filters, or how they work - but my recollection is that the more coats, the more effective the UV filter is. I may be wrong in this regard

Incidentally, when I redid all my brightwork down to the wood, I followed the Epifanes instructions which I recall were the first coat is 25% varnish, the second 50% and the third coat 75%, or something like that - no other primers other than stain (do not use anything that is also a sealer), and I have used both oil and water based stains. Over that I targeted an additional 9 coats of full strength varnish, but because of imperfections (sailors, and that includes myself, tend towards the perfectionist end of the spectrum) there might be anywhere up to 15 coats. If you're going to go to the trouble of doing it, do it right. Epifanes has detailed instructions and follow the regimen they suggest.

[Mike Goodwin]

Pete,
My pal and some time crew Ed Cobb carves those things , I think he gets $250 & up for them gilded and painted , depends on how many letters he carves and how fancy the ends are .

Of the Cetol like products I like and use when needed is West Marine's Wood Pro Gloss , it is not orange but more brown . I prefer Epifanes and an old varnish by Davis Instruments ( that I can no longer find ) called Callahan's Chiltered Varnish .

[Bill]

Practical Sailor releases its rankings of exterior varnishes in the Oct 15 issue. Those they think best are: Epifanes Wood Finish, Pettit's Hi-Build 2056 and West Marine's Skipper.

[MarkCreeker]

Bill - thanks for the tip. I see Practical Sailor referred to often. Do you subscribe and use the web service, or just pick up your copy at the local news stand?

[Bill]

PS is only available by subscription and on the Web. If you are a subscriber, you can look at the complete magazine, otherwise you only have access to limited information.

Subscriptions are expensive, but there is no advertising so the discussions and ratings of products tend to be more objective.

You can view PS at: www.practical-sailor.com