Sail design for strickly sailing craft

[Bart]

I have no engine for my Ariel by choice and my mainsail is ready for a new one. I'd like to make it and am looking for advice for a high performance cruising sail. In the past 6K miles, I've had numerous repairs around the batten pockets as that is where the main wear is. I've considered no battens, or full battens. I sail at times single handed. Any help would be great. Thanks, Bart bartblank (at) yahoo dot com

[Bill]

Sail making is quite a challenge. Have you Googled it? Here's one site you might want to look at:

www.sailcut.com/Sailmaking

[ebb]

see Sailrite Sailplan Database: Pearson Ariel.
They'll also sell you a sewing machine to keep you in stitches.
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So Bart, looked it up out of curiosity.
Kit cost for MAINSAIL is $522.62.
To have Sailrite complete the sail add $496.68.

There are fabric, boltrope, reefing, batten choices
luff, foot, numbers attachments. And the saibag.
What's included or extra I don't know.
Could be another place to begin looking.

Prices for their famous portable "walking foot" sewing machine start at $700.
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Looking at
who's online list (25 this morning!) a guest was in archives
on the Mail Sail Advice thread from 2004.

CRUISING MAINSAIL
What is the criteria for a modern cruising main would be very interesting.
Dacron, easy hand, dutchman flaking, triple stitching....
....If I had the bucks I'd look up the Carol Hasse loft in Port Townsend.
Best in the cruising sails business!

http://www.porttownsendsails.com/articles.htm
Check out a fantastic 9 page CRUISING MAINSAIL article (also from 2004) by Hasse ! ! !


Ed Ekers, might also be a great source for info on the Ariel main, and all the other rags and strings too.:cool:

Read: Bart cruises by choice without a motor !

[Ariel 109]

Here's the drawing of the main sail I had quoted by Doyle. Loose footed main, full upper battens and two reefing points, nice sail. It was priced at just above a thousand dollars.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/MainSail.jpg

[ebb]

Ben,
Did you get the sail?
Did you compare with local lofts?
Full battens seem to require special slides because they compress the sail against the track.
Maybe it doesn't matter up top there.
Hasse talks pro&con on full-partial-nobatten sails, But not, as I recall, on this partial set up
that seems to be a good compromise.

Are the slides different in any way from the regular.
Is there any problem getting the sail down,
as for reefing from the cockpit, especially singlehanding?

What Dacron fabric was specified. Hydranet? Was UV factored in?


Hasse recomends a storm trisail. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Our mast, to my eye, doesn't allow an extra track to be attached easily.
An extra track (next to the regular track) would be nearly 70 degrees to the pull aft by the storm sail.

[Ariel 109]

Ebb I haven't bought new sails for the Ariel yet.

You could do something like this to load a trysail onto an Ariel mast.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/TrysailTrack2_zpsa6f7853f.jpg

[ebb]

I'm totally mystified !!!

[Ariel 109]

Ebb didn't you play with of these when you were a little kid?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/track1122r_ident_zps3ce850ce.gif

The mainsail track has a switch that allows you to hoist the trysail from an auxiliary track after you've lowered your mainsail.

[ebb]

OH !
But if the main's stack is still on the main track,
the tri would have to be set on top of the stack.
Is that copasetic? Seems a little high for a sail I think you want rigged closer to the deck?

[Ariel 109]

Here's a picture of how a sail track can switch. This is from Eric Hiscock's book "Cruising Under Sail". He's gives a load of good information for using a trysail.


http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/MainSailTrackSwitch_zpsc68b19e5.jpg

[ebb]

Ben, I'll look it up.
What gets me is that when the storm sail is rigged off the side of the mast like that.
the slides will be at very awkward right angle to the sail, on the tear-drop Ariel mast,
and the slides are at the same bad angle to the track connections in the mast........:confused:
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OK, I got that wrong! I could only find a "revised edition" of Cruising Under Sail which naturally has no photos showing the deal.
But the text does say that the storm sail track leads the sail up onto the main track using a curved switch gate.
I'm surprised - but I have no experience and therefor have a problem visualizing -
that the storm sail is rigged above the mainsail slide stack. Hiscock's mast must have been round.
Our mast's aft side is very pointy - How could a switch track be fastened to the mast side and still guide slides around what is obviously the corner to the back?

My original slide gate at the bottom of the main track was a right angle bent piece of stainless (mounted under the track on one of its screws) that wore against the aluminum and caused nasty crevis corrosion in the mast. I guess a slide-type stop is the answer to that, but
Where can I look for this uncommon curved track switch that is made for a storm sail? And won't wear against the aluminum. Is it a custom thing?
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The Pardey "Storm Tactics Handbook" pg201 has an essay about trysails and their rigging. Pardey boats have round wood masts which makes running extra track from the mast foot to about 2/3s up along side main track possible. That's how they do it.
Still confusing to me, but the radical angle of the foot of their trysail seems to be how it's done - tack is rigged way above the mainsail stack.
They seem to show in a photo of the try TRACK that the bottom end is LOOSE, NOT fastenened to the mast because it has to span a number of fittings including the gooseneck and then surely somewhere above it's screwed to the mast. Have I made that up! It allows for the sail to be on the track and bundled on deck, ready to go. I like the extra track idea - but not unattached below the gooseneck. Really?
"Since the trysail is handy and ready to use, we often hoist it instead of putting a third reef in the mainsail for reaching or running when winds top 30 knots." Trysail is rigged sans boom and on its own track, which adds safety and versatility as winds rise. They also diagram '4th reef' trysails for short keel cruisers rigged loosefooted to the boom.
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:eek:Do you think the following is possible or wise?

to lag on to the mast a long piece of 1" aluminum angle on the starboard side* using holes drilled thru the pointy corner into the mast. Legs of the angle stock bear on the mast.
The aft facing side of the right angle almost matches the plane of the main track, slightly off.
And would be close to the maintrack but slightly offset forward - and out of slider & fabric traffic.... hopefully.
That shows how much of a corner ( close to 45 degrees) the mast side is right there at the mast track.
Attach 7/8" s.s T-track to that aft face of the angle, and hoist away. Double track,. 23 pardoo!
What's the cost in weight? [20ft 6061T6 1"X 1/8" about 5.6lbs. Plus T-track and screws.]
*that's the side where the halyard winch is.

FEASIBLE? Aye ask you.

[Ariel 109]

Ebb,

I think having another track going up the mast is unnecessary and may screw with your airflow over the mainsail. With the right type of mounting embankment for the trysail auxiliary track, a carved block of teak perhaps, the Ariel's mast foil profile won't present a problem. I think a track switch could also be mounted on some small teak blocks and the switch doesn't look too difficult to make. It could all look quite beautiful. You should see the carved hounds that hold the looped ends of the rigging to the top of an S-Boat mast, amazing made without a five axis CNC mill. I need to take a picture.

Ben

[ebb]

Ben, yeah!......Come aheard with a photo or more of S-boat sculpture. WE'd love to see it!

Making that corner turn from the side of the mast to the backside track would probably take two/three feet of gradual track twisting on the mast - believe I can see that part, but not the meeting of the tracks. How to make the switch I can't see. Like the Lionel track in post #8 the switching has to be on one plane. And any gate or break in the run of the track invites a possible sticking point to smooth raising and lowering of the sail There'd be a a lump where the switch is situated as the transition point.
First inclination is to "cast" the support pad on the mast with thickened reinforced epoxy. Take some noodling to make it possible. A thinner lower pad profile is likely the result. Already have cheek block & winch pads made that way.

You are not persuaded that having a second track
in rising wind - with the trysail ready to hoist - perhaps even from the cockpit - is argurment enough?
And you do look at things with the racer's edge?

Don't know too much about air flow around a mast. To my eye we have a beautifully shaped aerofoil for that - would be sin to mess with.
Yet, for arguements sake, many, maybe most, modern masts are rectangular in profile with rounded corners.
Isn't the wind on a profile like that squirrelling around a non-aerodynamic design impediment? Round masts also create eddies and drag.
What's the cost in air drag of adding that plastic Tides Marine track on top of our T-track that's popular these days: TonyG has it.
What about fully battened sails that require those slide/car thingies to make sure the sail can be lowered that in effect separate the sail from the mast. Those two are behind the mast.

Agree the con is significant. A triangular bumpout along 2/3s mast length (but really it's a low profile 3/4" tall standup bearing 45degrees on its legs) for a seldom used second track is a bit much to excuse.
And a trysail could possibly be rigged without any extra track by providing a normal track gate above the mainsail stack to slide it on.
(Can see the gate: the bottom trysail slide goes on first, and slides down to rest temporarily on the mainsail stack. Each slide put on in succession until the top is reached , close the gate attach ropes and go.) Isn't feasible in any wind, and maybe too high on the mast.
You'd need plenty of weather warning, especially as a singlehand. The main has to be flaked, bundled and the boom lashed before the try can be rigged & raised. (The Pardey alternative has the storm sail always ready to raise at a moment's notice.)
Of course, once the try is on the shared main track, you are committed to it being there - having to derig it entirely to raise the main again.


That's why a second track is so attracktive!
Versatility and options VS whimpy aerodynamics compromising the back of the mast.
Can argue that trysail dedicated track has to be really securely fastened to the mast. Angle idea might not be the best design.
If it gets ripped off in 40knots, there would still be the maintrack.
Perhaps a WOOD filler can be added along the length of the angle to fair the forward surface with the side of the mast?


Once made oak hounds for a round gaff sail mast. Made the spruce mast too - those days are gone forever. Was proud of my spars. Even parceled, served and leathered soft eyes that rested on them. Been so long, can't remember how to spice. Probably didn't do it briontoss. One time I was really immersed in (my idea of) that grand old stuff.

[Ariel 109]

Ebb, Here's the sail track gate (switch) I just made for the S-Boat's mast, somewhat inspired by this thread. It's about three feet above the bottom end of the sail track. The thumb wheel allows one to open and close the gate without a screwdriver. The nylon washer on the bronze thumb wheel acts as a thrust washer I think this could be adapted for the Ariel's aluminum mast.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/5699D501-6E8F-44CA-B37A-5A89B70B600A-1052-0000012AB3E709E2_zps4b5eb8e6.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/Parlordoor/media/5699D501-6E8F-44CA-B37A-5A89B70B600A-1052-0000012AB3E709E2_zps4b5eb8e6.jpg.html)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/B77CB4C4-0A18-4E38-B3EA-AAFCB27932FA-1052-0000012AA716F368_zpsa8229214.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/Parlordoor/media/B77CB4C4-0A18-4E38-B3EA-AAFCB27932FA-1052-0000012AA716F368_zpsa8229214.jpg.html)

[ebb]

Ben, SUPERB!
Ok, so I'm not asking trade secret of a not yet pattented invention.....?
panhead machine screw in track... threads into a collar...that the thumb wheel turns to raise the track.
But the wheel itself can't rise while moving the bolt up and down in the track.
So how does the thumb-screw attach to the mast?
Since it has to hold the track closed.
As well as open...there's going to be twisting and turning when a sail is put on or taken off.
Light bulb hasn't lit up for me. yet!
Like the direct non-curve track ideal. But it would also be good to have storage track on the mast to temporarily
gather and keep the slides in line... if the sail can be tamed.

BUT, in the case of an Ariel track - which is flat directly on the mast - having no stand-off....
can see your invention translated to a bolt that goes completely thru the mast from front to track
The bolt would have to turn thru two bronze threaded inserts (nuts)...
Turning the bolt would raise the track, reversing would bring the track down flat if spring tension remains constant.
Aluminum can't be threaded to do any work, especially thru a 1/8" thick extrusion - and there'd be corrosion.

The track has to be pushed up - as well as hauled down - in a controlled way.
The bolt will take the duty of a track screw.
But augmented with a machine screw pulling the track end securely back in place.

How about a bronze machine screw that goes thru the track and threaded into the end of the bolt?
Wear on the track arguably would not be a big problem because the system isn't used that much.....
The bolt needs to be able to move slightly out of square when the track goes out of line.
But since the big bolt can't move, the solution may be to slightly elongate the screw hole in the track.
The head of the bronze machine screwcan be custom rounded underneath.
IOW, a ball headed screw - in a slightly oblong track hole.


Beautiful work there, Ben !....
can't see any wind eddying that slick spar.... Just g l i d e s around!
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I've gone back to your photos and I swear I see shadow under the wheel in the second one.
There would have to be, because no way could the track be bent up in such a short span.
So I guess the thumb wheel rides up on a threaded post and thereby pushes the track out and probably pulls the track back in line
-and holds it securely.

How to get around the boom?
So why not - if the sail is flaked and tied around itself..... and needs to be removed...
why not thread the slides onto a piece of track on a separate board, or very stiff canvas? Hopefully will work for the main as well the storm sail.
Then figure out a way to hold this short track, slides, and sail to the end of the raised mast track....and haul the slides on. Dunknow.

OR, another way, without using a tricky 3D curved switch track, connecting main track to side track:
Remove sailslides (using your track riser) from the main track and thread them on a lower short track
fastened on either side of the mast below the goose neck.
Have to manually thread the slides onto the short track.
And manually back to the main track.... hauling on the main or stormsail halyard....back up on the main track....

[Ariel 109]

Ebb, I didn't invent this gate design. I roughly copied this from another S-Boat's mast. You are correct, the fixed thumb wheel and the pan head sandwich the sail track between them, allowing the gate to open and shut. The pan head machine screw is threaded into the lower bronze plate which is screwed to the mast. A shallow hole in the wood under the plate accepts a length of the machine screw when the gate is shut.

Incidentally Nat Herreshoff invented the sail track used on the S Boat and the Ariel. I've always found that strip of bronze going up the Ariel's mast pretty classy.