Roller Furler

[Janice Collins]

Am thinking about installing one. Would make it easier to sail singlehanded.

Whoever has one, what kind do you have and what is your experience with it?

Doing this and then leading the main halyard into the cockpit seems like a good thing.


:cool:

[Mike Goodwin]

Take a look at ProFurl , I'm leaning real hard in that direction myself. I have heard nothing but good from several sailmakers and riggers in regards to ProFurl.

[commanderpete]

I have a Harken Unit 0. It works great. But, its about 20% more expensive than the ProFurl.

You would probably be better off using the money as a downpayment on a proper new genoa with a foam luff pad.

[MarkCreeker]

Lady J goes in the water this weekend with a Cruising Design "reefer" system. This is an older model, now discontinued. They do have a newer "Flexible Furler" model, that one of the members here uses. I have yet to use mine (or any furling system).

The system seems almost too simple. I wrap a line around the furler mechanism with the genny out. To reef, I pull on the furling line while maintaining tension on the sheet, and the genny rolls around the extrusion along the headstay. I do the reverse to unfurl the headsail.

Am I missing something? I keep thinking that when I get out on the water, I'll be wrapped up in headsail and furling line while the tide pulls me out to the Sound.

[Janice Collins]

I have no experience with any of these systems.
It was my initial impression that one can let out as little or as much sail as needed. But then someone told me you can only have it all the way out or all the way in. Which is it? Can it be furled out a little and used as a storm jib?

What's the purpose of a foam luff pad?

[MarkCreeker]

This site gave me some great info on roller furling. And it's an Alberg dedicated site, too!

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/rollerreefer/rollerreefer.htm

[Janice Collins]

Thanks for the site...

Found my West Marine catalog, it also has good information on these systems.

[Mike Goodwin]

There is roller furling and roller furling/reefing , all units are now built for both . The purpose of the foam pad is to flatten the sail as it is reefed ( rolled in ) . I would not buy just a roller reefing system as you must still change sails is the wind builds to high .

[ebb]

Not being the sailor I wish I was, I'm confused here. The whole point for me is to make the jib smaller when the wind gets up. What's that: reefing or furling? When it's all wound up it's furled, right? So when there's still some wee bit triangle left, it's reefed. If that's not correct it is no wonder I'm not sailing.

338 had a Harken furler that worked just fine and forgave my whambam-thankyou-mam attempts at sailing into the wind. I thought it was great. It must have been a reefer-furler. What would anyone need just a furler for?

Later when I had the gear removed, I noticed the stem fitting hole was elongated. Toward the top. About a quarter of an inch of metal left. I thought it was due to the heavier loads on the fitting. But it's possible the damn fool who attached it rat-tailed the hole to accept the tight shallow strapshackle clevis pin. 5/8" from the bottom of the drum to the center of the pin!! The older I get the more I go round shaking my head.

There is another entirely different furler that looks simple and elegant and offshore. It's by SPIN-TEC. furlers@spin-tec.com

Any chat on it is hard to find. You might try www.sailboatowners,com to see how genuine you think their comments are on this furler. I'm not persuaded, EXCEPT by the concept. Practical Sailor hasn't graded them yet.

[Mike Goodwin]

Furlers are just a vertical sail bag that are easy to stuff , reefers are made from wacky tobacky ( wrong list ) reefers are made to take the varying loads and sails are specially cut for them with marks showing the reef points .

2 Ariels with equal crews , 1 with furling and 1 with reefing ,sailing with 180% gennys , turn to weather and roll in the sail to 100% jib size . The one with reefing /furling will sail higher and faster and not damage the sail or gear . I know some folks with roller furling and 10 bags of sails below , they sail with a double luff groove headstay so sail can be changed without being bareheaded and they just rool up the last one at the end of the day .

[Bob G]

I installed a CDI furler 2 years ago(with the roller bearing option) and have had no problems with it. It was relatively inexpensive, fairly easy to install by myself and one friend, simple to operate, andhas worked well.

[ebb]

OK MIke, maybe I'm getting the concept. When I look at a "furler" how do I know which one I'm looking at?

The Harken on 338 had two grooves and to my knowledge the other groove never had a sail hoisted on it. It was used to make the sail that lived on it smaller when the wind got too heavy. I could tell the sail belonged there because it had a sunbrella protective edge.

If I went to a boat show what do I look for the tells me what the system is? But I think you said all units do both(?)

Have you looked at the Spin-tec? I complained to them via email that they didn't say what their furler actually does. They sell it as a no maintenance "for serious offshore work" rig. Yet they did say the sail shape would suffer when used for reefing. But that's every furling systems problem. Is that not so?

338 has to have a cruising what-ever-it's-called reefer/furler. I would like it to be for serious offshore work AND no maintenance too. How does the Pro-Furl stack up to the competition? Is it a cruiser system, does the foresail stay 'permanently' on the stay?

338 has no crew. The captain never leaves the cockpit.

Just got 338's beautyful new ROBUST stem fitting back from Bristol (resculpted using the original one.) Going down this moring to see how much it shrank.

Thanks. It's really the difference between orange soda and a great ale!! If I'm out in the middle of NOWHERE which one would I reach for? Or reach with? mucho confusedo:confused:

[Janice Collins]

That's my goal also, If I can help it, I don't want to have to leave the cokpit to change/pull up my sails,

If I am understanding all this info...what I want is a furler reefer, and in very strong winds, all I have to do is take it in to the appropriate reef pont. correct?

[Dave]

Furlers have been around since the 30's and probably before that. As I understand it, Ted Hood -- of Hood sails -- may have been the first to figure out how to get the headsails to roll evenly and "reliably" onto a foil (the slotted tube that holds the sail). He was the one who added a swivel to the top of the unit.
Our Ariels have had a similar system on them from the beginning -- on the mainsail. Although the roller reefing on our booms was never intended to roll up the whole sail, the sail "furls" around the boom like a flag furled around a flagpole. Mainsail roller-booms work, but it's difficult to get them to roll evenly, so the sail shape is poor and most of us have gone to slab reefing our mains.
Early headsail furlers had the same problems: awkward, unreliable, and crummy sail shape.
Design changes and new materials have made huge improvements in headsail furlers -- to the point that they are reliable, almost maintenance free, and can be used to reef in about 30% of the sail while maintaining acceptable shape (if there is some material in the center of the luff to flatten the sail). Off the wind, sail shape doesn't matter as much.
I have always prefered hanked on sails, but my wife has always prefered to keep people off the deck when the wind is blowing hard and seas are up -- she's never liked to have either of us on the foredeck herding a flapping genoa in heavy conditions. So, I relented and got roller furling.
I made a 130 genoa with a high clew, put it on the furler, and it really is slick. I'm going to add a heavy working jib that will reef to a storm jib for the furler, and a big nylon drifter to hank on to the bow roller, and that'll be it.
But remember, as Mike said, when I want to change sails -- I'll still have to go forward, and it will be a lot harder to do compared to hanked on sails. So, I'll try to choose sails before I go out. Fact is, the furler makes sail handling very easy, quiet and without much anxiety -- all from the cockpit.
It's all trade offs...and I've gone over to the other side. I'll keep the furling/reefing system.
--Dave

[Mike Goodwin]

I like the Pro-furl because it does not change the existing rig at all , if it breaks you could pull it down and pitch it over the side, if you were so inclined , hank on a sail & keep going .
I had problems with 2 Hood units on other boats and wouldn't buy one at any price over $10 , I do like Hood sails , got a Hood main .
I work closely with some riggers and sailmakers and all of them say they dont know if Pro-Furl is any good because they have never had to repair or replace one they installed , they could be crap but they wont break so we can find out . Also that is what all of them use on their own boats .

[Janice Collins]

Mike, Commanderpete, you have to change your sails with your furling system?

Does the original rigging remain with the Harken?

I never fully trust these "systems". Liked the simplicity of the traditional hanked on sails...However, it wasn't ME who would go forward in rough weather to change the sails......

Now, here I am, anything to make it easier for me to sail singlehanded, and remaining in the cockpit as much as I can.

Would appreciate hearing from somebody who has experience with the CDI Flexible Furler.

[Bob G]

Check a few posts back in this thread, I did post my opinion on the CDI. Good luck.

[ebb]

Great! Can't go wrong with experience. Tho I remember somebody here chalking it ALL up to opinion. Pro- Furl sounds a lot like Spin=tec. No maintenance sounds like reliability to me. OFFSHORE is my operative buzz word. Nuts and bolts hardware is where I'm at. There must be a boat show coming up now it's autumn, I'll go armed with what we've learnt here. Fair furling, Janice:)

[Bill]

Ebb, Better hurry, the Fall boat show ends today (Jack London Square, Oakland). BTW - it's mostly power at the Fall boat show. Spring show is all sail.)

[Mike Goodwin]

Janice,
The only reasons to change sails with a furler/reefer would be for maintainence ( torn sail ), racing ( go faster or slower [control] ) , major weather change ( extremely heavier or lighter air ).
Most of this can be anticipated with the exception of torn sail .
Your reefing sail is marked ie. all the way out is a 160% or 180% genny , how big depends on your local prevailing winds Chesapeake Bay in the summer calls for a 180% . You roll it in to the 1st mark , which for me would be a 110% as the wind picks up . Next step would be to put the 1st reef in the main ( for me anyway )then roll it in to the 2nd mark which would be about the size of the class jib or 90 to 100% , again according to the most common conditions you will encounter .
I might also add the 2nd reef to the main depending on wind , sea state and point of sail .
Finally , I would roll the jib all the way in and go on a double reefed main and bareheaded .

Sometimes for extended downwind passages ( days ) , you would go forward and hoist a 2nd sail in the other groove , drop the main and go wing & wing , with the tiller centered & tied off port & starboard with a bungee , the boat will sail herself dead downwind 24/7 .This way you can catnap or put on your makeup ,read a novel etc.

I like hanked on sails too , but I'm not 18 anymore and these are small boats with limited storage . It is also much easier to go for a short sail if all you have to do is roll out the jib .
I like to sail by myself when I can and this makes it happen more .

Mike

[Dave]

I'll add a good word for the newer CDI furler -- the "Flexible Furler." The older, original CDIs were pretty crummy.
I looked at a lot of furling systems and did a fair amount of research and talked to as many people as I could.
If I had lots of money, I probably would have gone with Schaefer...just because the smart people in this part of the world (Carol Hasse -- see her article on mainsails in this month's Cruising World, and Brion Toss -- master rigger) recommend them highly for cruisers. Racing systems are a different deal.
But, money counts and the CDIs are HALF the price. I called the designer of the CDI and described some of the concerns I'd heard. He convinced me of the integrity of the design and materials. So I bought one and have used it all summer.
It works great, cost me less than $500, and seems bullet proof.

Dave

[Bill]

Mike, is that what you would call a back handed endorsement? (Griping because the things don't give them any income.)

[ebb]

Too bad about the boat show tho... I was down in the forward stateroom glassing in the bases for the double water tanks today. Really wanted to see what a $250,999 power boat looks like out of the water. Musta wasted my time.

[glissando]

I had a modern CDI flexible furler on my Ensign (installed in 1998). It was excellent and always performed well and without problems. It's still going strong with the new owners of the boat. It worked well for partial furling (reefing) as well. I never did anything to it...no maintenance beyond water flush on occasion when I washed the boat.

These are maintenance free units and the flexible foil extrusion is guaranteed against any damage, even a travellift running over it or some such. The small one I had had its own halyard in the foil, which I didn't love--hard to tension. I don't know if the larger ones have their own internal halyards or not.

I think the CDI would be a good choice, and is very hard or impossible to beat for the money. It's half the cost of Harken/Schaefer/Profurl. For more offshore work, it probably wouldn't hurt to go with the next size up than the one recommended, just for kicks and a safety factor.

I have a Schaefer 1100 on my Triton now and love it. Excellent, rugged, high quality, easy to install. The days of inconsistent performance and breakdowns with roller headstays are pretty much in the past--problems that occur with a new, quality system are the result of user error (ie halyard wrap, obstructed drum or furling line, etc), not an inherent performance issue with the product. New systems are so much better than the first and second generations as to not even pretend that they're the same thing.

Once you get a quality furling system (they're all furler/reefers now, at least the ones you'd be looking at) you'll wonder why the hell you didn't do it sooner and wonder why so many people seem to want to advise you not to get one. This is a very worthwhile investment. Most comments that are anti-rollerfurling are based on bad experiences with the old, crappy, first and second generation things, which were lousy. I don't know anyone with a nice system that has a single complaint. You don't see these systems on 95% of cruising boats for no reason...they work. They're convenient. And they're safe. And they make life so much more enjoyable.

If money is an object, get the CDI flexible furler. Otherwise, go with Schaefer, Profurl, or Harken--choose the one that has the features you like best. They are all excellent; you'll get endorsements on any of the three from people who own them. If anything, the Harken and Schaefer are more modern than the Profurl, but that doesn't mean better or less prone to problems, necessarily.

Roller furlers and cruising boats are a match made in heaven. Yes, hanks are reliable. So are sextants and oars. But that doesn't mean there aren't better and more logical ways to accomplish the tasks any of these items were meant for. Progress happens, and often it's good.

Tim

[MarkCreeker]

I've got one of the old "crummy" CDI furlers. Since I haven't gotten the boat in the water yet, can't tell you how it works! (Ah, the joys of boat ownership). Could forsee problems, tho, as the extrusions that form the sail track are held together by gravity alone. May be some sticking at the joints when raising the headsail. The "flexible furler" is an integral one-piece track, that I guess solves that problem.

[ebb]

All Right!

Any furler that doesn't mess with the original stay is obviously the right system. Tho the furler drum is exchanged for the original turnbuckle, yes?

When I first was trying to edjucate self about a beefy roller reefing reefer furler didn't I read about these things being torn open in a high wind? Or maybe that was some boats moored during a hurricane and the huge sail got loose and compromised the rig because it wasn't secured right.

So, do these furlers keep the sail rolled up in the worst conditions? You know, without having to go forward etc. Is any one of them better at this than the others?

Something else I recall is that furlers require a special kind of line to roll on the drum properly. True? That may have been apropos the Harken furler. But it could be a problem if you couldn't retro normal line to the gear.

[Bill]

For a truly low effort system, why not add a jib boom and go for a self tacking system (similar to the main)? [See page 212 in Harken's 2002 catalog for a drawing and discussion.]

[ebb]

Rit Moot is the guy who invented it for his double headed and double furlered bowspritted Triton. Right next door here on the T. maintenance/projects pages. My inspiration!

[Dave]

ebb,
On the CDI you do not replace the lower turnbuckle (I don't know about other brands) but you do need to install a toggle on each end of the stay to give full motion to the rig, since you'll be tugging at the thing to furl and unfurl the sail. We had a whole new forestay built to accomodate the new toggles.
Keeping a furled sail in place on the furler in windy conditions is important and there are any number of solutions. We have a zippered cover that we haul over the sail with a spare jib halyard for two reasons: so they we don't need a UV cover on the trailing edge of the sail (I don't like the extra weight on the sail) and to keep the sail in place during high winds when we're away from the boat.
--Dave

[ebb]

trying to think how to rig the zipper from the cockpit. Seriously tho, got to see these rigs in the flesh to compare attributes. {the Spin-tec anomally is interesting because they seem to be advertising attributes everybody else has.

Wish to hell Garhauer made one, we know it would be just as good even better than the comp, at half the price. I'll definitely check out CDI with the Garhauer phenomenon in mind. (S-T wants $1400 to furler the Ariel but they'll throw in the lead blocks and the line.)

Trying to imagine the cover, What is it, on a ring that you pull down from rhe mast head so that it goes over the furling line at the clew which is halfway up the stay?

So it must be sunbrella, you hoist it while zippering it. You leave the furling lines in place, gathering them in a loop up to the top? Hmmmmm..... .........nope, don't compute:eek:

[Dave]

This is like writing out how to tie a shoe...I'm not sure I'm up to it, but here goes.

The sail cover for the furled genoa is rectangular in shape, 12 inches by 30 feet, made of sunbrella pieces sewn together. Along the long edges are the two sides of a zipper -- actually two zippers, one that goes up the sides for about 5 feet from the bottom, a small gap, then another zipper that runs to the top of the cover. Also at the top of the cover is a grommet.

Tie the end of the old jib halyard through the grommet, wrap the top of the cover around the sail, start the zipper -- and hoist a bit of the cover and zip, hoist and zip until the cover's to the top. Bring the jib sheets out through the gap, coil them and hang on the sides of the bow pulpit, engage the bottom zipper and run it up to the gap. Cleat the furling line, tie a hank of line around the cover and sail for extra security. Presto, a covered sail.

It's easy, clean and shippy.

--Dave

[ebb]

very happy now.

Will Look into CDI AND Pro=furl, for sure! thanks .... ebb

[commanderpete]

Here is a picture of my furler sail.

The foam luff pad is on the leading edge.

The UV cover does add some weight, no doubt about that.

[Janice Collins]

I saw a lot of boats with torn canvas scraps waving in the breeze from their furling sustems after major storms/hurricanes.
I would take the sail off in preparation for a bad enough storm where I would have tie up into the mangroves.
But if they did this at anchor/ boatyard... they must do it at sea too.

Commanderpete, the sail looks great.

[ebb]

Personally, I like the convenience of the sunbrella on the sail.
So, there it is fairly tightly wrapped on the stay and protected:

Dave,
Do you have a photo of your furler sleeve. Is it off the shelf, or did you invent it?

Remember those woven grass tubes that when you put a finger in each end you couldn't get your fingers loose? That's what we need in small nylon line to keep the furler from getting ripped open. Maybe it can sit in a little bag under the drum. Attach spare halyard hoist until the sail is captured tight. Could be rigged to the cockpit. [probably already exists]

[Mike Goodwin]

It's called a 'sock' and they have been around for ages , most sailmakers can make one . We had one on a C&C 40 that I used to race on .

[Dave]

I'll see if I can find a picture of the genoa cover (I thought socks were the closed tubes that held spinnakers - but "sock" works for me.)
As Mike said, these have been around awhile, but few people use them. I'm guessing most people prefer to furl and forget. But I have never liked the idea of a hunk of sunbrella dragging on the sail in light air.
I think Sailrite has kits or instructions for these socks.

[Mike Goodwin]

The ones for spinakers are called 'chute scoops' , the C&C 40 I raced on had one sock that covered whatever sail we left in the groove at the end of the day . It was zippered on one side and had blocks and lines to hoist and retrieve .
Personally , after dealing with these things , I'll go with luff and foot covers sewn on , it's not that much weight on our little sails .

[Bill]

And to make those things work, it takes 10 men and a small boy :p

[Mike Goodwin]

We prefer a woman in a bikini over the small boy , but it did take 3 guys to haul the 180 on deck and hoist it !

[Dave]

Gosh, I didn't realize that putting the "sock" on was so difficult! It takes the two of us about three minutes -- what're we doing wrong?
It's all tradeoffs and preferences.

[ebb]

Understand sock concept as alternative to protective edge on the sail. Does the sock protect the sail in extreme wind conditions? Can the sock itself be flagged by the wind or is it tight around the sail?

A light rope net pulled tight over the furled jib was what I was thinking. Like package wrapped. When you let go the halyard it expands and drops. Just a concept for what its worth It would have to be instantly deployable - no zippers on a heaving bow!

Want to protect the whole forestay, furler gear and sail. A sock would be great if it went on like spandex jeans - and with cold fingers.
:eek:

[Tony G]

Sorry Garhauer fans...The official word is "we have no plans to develope a headsail furler." Bummer, I was going to make the generous offer to be their test market guinea pig. Oh well.

[DavidSpaulding]

Attn: Dave" a while back you stated that you had purchased your CDI Flexible Furler and that it had cost "less than $500" -- could you tell me where your purchased it? I've been told it goes for considerably more and I'd like to save if possible.

Thanks in advance,

David Spaulding

[Tony G]

David
I too have been checking into a furler from CDI. You can buy direct from Cruising Direct via a print-out order form on their web site. If you have the original standing rigging or newer standing rigging of the same size I think you can get a furler(minus headsail modifications) for under five bills but if you have upgraded your standing rigging to say 1/4" or have exceptionally large turnbuckles on lighter 'wire' you'll have to get the CDI FF 6 (direct from my personal x-mas list) which runs a little over five. Tony G

[Dave]

David Spaulding,
I got my CDI FF4 Furler through Sailrite last January.
At the time, they were within a few bucks of the best total cost including shipping -- since I was ordering sail making materials too, I went with them.
But the fact is, they order and ship directly through CDI, so you may as well skip the middleman; though I've found Sailrite products and service to be excellent.
I've used the CDI all summer and into the fall, and it has performed flawlessly even in strong winds.
Be sure to get the ball bearing version.
--Dave Gillespie

[DavidSpaulding]

Thanks, Dave and Tony. I double-checked my quote from the local sail loft and they are selling the CDI for exactly what CDI gets for it online, so I'm happy with that.

Dave, could you tell me more about hte ball bearing version recommendation? I'mm applying this CDI FF1 on a Cape Dory Typhoon (Yes, I'm sort of lurking here hoping to scoop up a Commander at the right time, right price ;) ) I believe on smaller applications the steel bearing is an option. Do you think it'd make that much difference?

Thanks, again.

[Theis]

I have hanked on foresails and am going to play the devil's advocate here - giving some reasons why hanked on sails may be the best alternative. I too am getting older, and going forward does take energy -= buy hey, I need the exercise. These points are not necessarily in the order of importance.

1. In choppy seas the Ariel needs all the forward drive it can get. Many times I motor sail in rough weather. The foresail gives it that extra drive. I question whether the loss of shape from a roller furler will provide as much drive.

2. An important factor, in my opinion, is whether the Ariel has a dodger. I am a big person, and have never been able to readily get around those things to get to the foredeck. If I had a dodger (and I don't), the roller furler would be a no brainer. Without a dodger, I can get forward in seconds.

3. The roller furler mechanism, when totally furled, does give significant additional windage up forward, making it more difficult, or impossible (I don't know) to hold the boat to wind in a blow.

4. I have heard that in a blow, the roller furler can do a lot of banging (like shrouds whistling in the wind - but at a much lower frequency), and that if the slapping is severe enough, it can bring down the rigging.

5. I have no idea how old the roller furlers are, or what brand, but just this year I heard of the following: a roller furler blowing open in a blow, a roller furler getting jammed while open (resulted in a fatality - one that shouldn't have happened because the solo skipper knew about the problem before leaving port).

6. According to a neighborhood sailmaker, there is something about the masthead swivel, that if not properly adjusted can cause the roller furler to jam (I didn't get the details or fully understand the problem - but that the problem is not uncommon is the point here).

7. Most sailers are day sailors and never far from a port - i.e. not risking the unanticipated blow. That most people have roller furlers does not mean much to me as an open water sailer.

8. The horror - what do you do to bring in a roller furled sail in a blow if either the roller furler jams or the sail blows out (I know that will never happen, but it does happen - and the issue is what do you do if it does). Of course a hanked on foresail can be jammed and not able to be dropped, but that is a very remote possibility (although it happened to me last summer).

9. Wear and maintenance - Is the roller furler just one more thing that needs to be maintained, and an oversight in the maintenance can cause serious problems? What about the wear on the sail, it being used in different configurations.

10. I have heard is said that a roller furled sail does not last as long as hanked on sails - although that might be because a) the roller furled sail is up more often, and b) the roller furled sail is used in multiple configurations. The bottom line is whether more $$$$ are involved in maintenance.

11. I do consider an autopilot mandatory if sailing solo with hanked foresails. With the roller furler, you don't require an autohelm, so there are some savings there.

So those are my thoughts, using less conventional wisdom.

[commanderpete]

You do lose a little sail shape and pointing ability with a partially furled sail. I think the racing committees figure this amounts to about 6 seconds a mile. (Not too sure of this) Part of the performance difference may be because the roller furler sails are usually cut higher and don't sweep the deck.

You also cant hank on a storm jib.

But, the modern roller furlers are really trouble free. No maintenance involved. The units have proven to be reliable, and all the "Around Alone" and other record-chasing boats use them in extreme conditions. Of course, anything you put on a boat can break (and probably will).

Its true that hanking on a sail is no big deal. What aggravated me is the fact that you may want to change sails several times during the course of the day. If I put up the jib, before long I would wish I had the genoa up, and vice versa. The genoa might be the right sail for going off the wind, but too much close-hauled. Variable winds can be maddening.

This is fine if you're not worried about having the right sail up, or you don't mind changing sails (or you have a willing crew). I think its a PITA.

For me, I would never go back.

Cross over to the dark side, Theis. Leave Bill, Ed and those other dinosaurs behind.

[Mike Goodwin]

You might add that Ellen McArthur ,that just won the 'route duRhum ' race on Kingfisher , was using roller furling and beat all the maxi multihulls .
So you can figure that sail shape is not an issue , if you have the right sailmaker .

[Dave]

David,
The CDI bearings are actually "torlon" which is -- I have no idea, nylon and teflon? That's what they feel like.
I don't know if the bearings are necessary on the smaller headsail of your Typhoon, maybe not. If you have a Typhoon, Sr. at, what, 22 feet, I might still encourage the bearing version.
Great boat by the way.
--Dave G

[Dave]

Theis,
I fretted over the decision to buy a furler for several months. I am something of a purist and like hanked on sails.
I got the furler for my Ariel because my wife wanted to keep me in the cockpit in nasty weather.
But I've been won over. My response to your statements:
1) No question sail shape of a hanked jib or genoa is better than a partially furled sail. But I opted for a high clewed 130 and it serves well most of the time. Furled to foretriangle size I can still claw to windward.
3) The Ariel doesn't hold to windward anyway! A furled up sail doesn't make much difference. With the cutaway forefoot the boat has to be moving or it will fall off no matter what.
4) There is a low frequency flutter at the dock in high wind; that's why there has to be two way toggles top and bottom of the stay.
5,6,8) Furlers ARE far more reliable now. The CDI has an internal halyard and no top swivel and it seems highly unlikely that it would jam in the up position. And that's assuming I couldn't furl the sail. Top swivels on other furlers can jam if they are poorly installed -- but properly installed they are very reliable.
9,10) Very little maintenance required. Rinsing out bearings with hose now and again.
11) You want scary?? Try experiencing a big wave slewing the boat while you're on the foredeck with backed jib ripping control away from the autotiller, and said autotiller whinning away doing exactly the opposite (somehow) of what you want it to be doing and you screaming into the wind at the &*^&% machine. At the same time, I'm in the cockpit quietly furling my sail and keeping my boat under control with my own hands.

I won't go back either. BUT, I do understand the allure of hanked sails and if I were crossing oceans I wouldn't want a furler on my Bristol Channel Cutter. But I don't have a BCC and I'm not crossing oceans.

--Dave Gillespie

[Mike Goodwin]

The FF2 with bearing option is $670 from CDI , plus shipping .
You can get it from a sailmaker for $430 plus shipping . That is $240 , I can do a lot with $240.

http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/h-cdi.htm?L+scstore+nzmp7276ffb823b8+1039040842

[Theis]

There is no question that many times I debate whether to drop or put up less or more foresail, and do nothing because of the effort involved. I had thought it was only Lake Michigan that was so subject to the "who knows what's happening" type winds. The quick effortless adjustment is a super selling feature for the roller furler. And probably as long as I have the option of dropping it as well as rolling it, my safety concerns are satisfied.

With endorsements like that, I may become a convert to roller furling. However, I may have to drop off this website. Bill told me that the only cost was the annual dues. He didn't tell me it was a combination of dues and roller furling, and and a hatch cover and la dee dah. I'm going to have to make a hard decision. It may be either the pearsonariel.org website or my wife.

By the way, Pete, and perhaps I misunderstood you, I do have a hank on storm jib.

So now that I am getting a new set of stays this year, I guess the roller furler will have to wait a year. And I have those three almost brand new foresails. Maybe I'll have to wait two years.

But Dave, you gave me an idea. I wonder if my wife would want to give me a roller furler rig for Christmas - out of safety concerns. My work looks like it is cut out for me, but it may take a year to perfect.

[Ed Ekers]

Hi Gang,
I would like to offer a couple of points to the roller fuller chat. My experience comes from racing on newer sport boats that have roller systems. One issue that we have seen pop up is having the luff pull out from the head foil. This is not a problem if the sail is not exposed to a heavy load routinely, but you may find the rag flapping in the breeze if you back it in a blow. I would also offer that most sail makers will tell you that the construction of a sail is reinforced at the luff and if used in a rolled position you are putting loads on the sail that it is not designed to take. The end result is a stretched out sail. But hey if you need to shorten sail then you do it.

As far as performance goes on the Ariels, I agree with the others, your ability to point will suffer. The performance boats that race the open oceans use roller systems in a way that I doubt we would. They often have at least two roller systems, one with a reaching jib and a second roller system a bit aft of the head stay that has a smaller working/storm jib. Even with this system they still spend a great deal of time forward doing sail changes.

My last point is if I was like Asst.Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Pete, and I was always trying to impress the opposite sex I guess I would install a roller fuller system so I could hang out longer in the cockpit and do what needs to be done from there.......ed

[commanderpete]

Ed, I hope to continue to be the Commodore of Vice. Unfortunately, I have to bring my boat around to the yard and put her to bed for the Winter today. Temperatures have been getting down to the 20's and 2-4 inches of snow is predicted for tomorrow. Sad day for me.

Theis, I meant to say that with a roller furler, you no longer have the option of using a dedicated storm jib. So, this is a disadvantage. There is a company, ATN, that makes a storm jib that fits over a rolled up furler sail. But, they only make them for larger boats.

Of course, you can roll out just a scrap of sail with a roller furler in high winds. The flow of air across the leading edge of the sail is badly disturbed, but it works. I find that trying to beat into a steep chop with just a reefed main is veeeerrrry slow going.

Really the only reason to get a roller furler is convenience. That's good enough for me.

More power to the purists. If you get a roller furler Theis, you can still retain your title as "Zoltan of the North"

[Ed Ekers]

Very clever Commodore. I am sorry to hear that the Commander has to go into hibernation. Just as an FYI - the weather today in Santa Cruz is partly cloudy with a sea breeze of about eight knots and the temp is 74 degrees. I spent the day in the back yard varnishing boat parts. So if the weather gets to you pete, I have sand paper and extra brushes. ...ed

[Theis]

Ed:

Thanks. You saved a marriage of 32 years. My wife thanks you. And now I don't have to try that safety thing.

And Janice, I guess my three foresails are off the market for a while.

And for the Vice Commander, I agree, that a mainsail without a headsail has relatively little drive - although, as an aside, when I replaced my blown out piece of whatever, the drive did improve substantially.

It is the foresail that gives the real push in my experience. I will sail under a full genoa with out a main up, I will sail under a double reefed main and 100% genoa, or a 70% jib with a single or double reefed main. But, unless the winds are really vicious and I only want to keep the boat pointed towards the wind, I always carry a jib. What the mainsail does, even with a 40% reef, is stabilize the boat, keeping it from pitching or rolling uncomfortably - which is important if you are changing headsails.

The issue, often, in heavy winds, also is what is the balance that will let me heave to (I can't do that only carrying the super genoa, obviously).

[Brent]

Theis,

I agree with your arguments about hanked on vs. roller furler headsails. I had started another thread about dual headstays, but maybe it is a discussion better suited to this thread.

Having dual headstays seems to offer something of the best of both worlds; isn't the real benefit of a roller furler the ability to shorten sail without having to change headsails?

Dual headstays seem to be a cheap way to make headsail changing easy; the jib and genoa could be hanked-on all the time and you just raise whichever one is better suited to the conditions at the time. If heavy weather is expected, just replace the genoa with a storm jib before casting off.

[Theis]

That is a fascinating idea. I would be interested in any comments others have. As mentioned, I am getting the shrouds replaced this year. It would be very easy (and virtually no cost) to have both the new and old forestay connected i.e. two forestays.

I assume that the second stay goes to the masthead fitting as well. Right? Wrong?

What I really like about the idea is I could raise one without dropping the other until after the first was raised - or even if I dropped one and then raised the second, the elapsed downtime would be very minimal. Further, I would not be faced with the problem of stuffing the sail/ throwing it below while wet.

Since the sheets go to different sets of blocks, it would be easy enough, possibly, to have two separate sets of sheet lines.

Thanks for the idea. I'll be interested in what others have to say.

[Mike Goodwin]

The Allied Seawind II , designed by Tom Gilmer , has dual headstays , side by side .
You will need to beef up the masthead crane and go to a heavier backstay .

You can dual hoist on a good roller furling too , most have dual grooves so you can fly two headsails at once .
The Olsen 25 and C&C 40 that I race on , both have dual groove headstay foils . We hoist the 2nd sail before taking down the first .

[commanderpete]

This should settle the furler vs. hank-on sail debate.





http://www.maxranchi.com/modules/Gallery/gallery/2003/19_x-yachts_cup/misar%20race%20one.jpg

[marymandara]

Dunno, Pete...
I think proper hank-on sails would be a better choice with that particular crew...at least in terms of photo opp.
Dave

[commanderpete]

Exhibit B

http://www.realsailorsmagazine.com/CenterfoldSeptOct2002/Natalie4lg.jpg

[commanderpete]

I rest my case.

http://photos.trailersailor.com/2003/charlie2.jpg

[marymandara]

I read a ways back into this thread, and I'm going to go with Theis on this one. Sure to upset someone somewhere as always, here are my 2 cents' worth.

--I have never had a significant problem with hanked-on headsails in my life. On the other hand, I have had a couple of highly unpleasant experiences with roller furlers of various age and make.
--Roller furling headsails are generally slower to deploy and slower to take in. Slower to deploy is not a good thing. This is a safety issue.
--I have made a fair amount of money over time working on roller furling systems with problems. I have made money, but much less, doing things like replacing piston hanks. Similarly, after every good winter blow you can observe any number of shredded up furling headsails flapping like mad.
--There is of course the issue of takedown...well, I guess you might say "rollup". Ever try to do it downwind? In a lot of cases this does not work out so well and the sail must be rolled up heading dead to windward, which often requires a screw turning. Engines never fail to operate when needed, do they?
--I see plenty of furling headsails with blown and flappy leeches. Fewer hank-ons unless the boat is really ghetto (of which I have been guilty). Guess which blown out sails are usually markedly newer?
--There is a definite performance issue. With a good suit of sails, see how many degrees your boat can actually tack through. Put on the furler and try it. Place a classified ad for the furler the next day...The issue of windage is very real and significant as is the issue of added weight aloft. The additional pumping induced in a blow is detrimental and fatiguing to the rest of the rig and to the spar itself. Don't bother asking the sailmaker or the rigger who both have money to make from you, but take it up with a naval architect or a mechanical engineer. No joke.
--An auto helm is a poor device for keeping drive on the boat under sail as it can only steer a compass course as opposed to keeping up a desired sheet load commensurate with a given angle of attack of boat to wind. A very nice sheet-to-tiller tackle can be made up for a fraction of the cost and will be used quite often.
--As to staying on the boat or not, under the heading of "safety"...it can be very difficult to singlehandedly keep visual contact on an MOB while handling the boat in order to retrieve succesfully--under the most ideal conditions. Quality jacklines, harnesses and tethers are relatively inexpensive and easy to fit, especially if you make them yourself, and have the distinct benefit of keeping you attatched to the boat.
--Again (I brace for the ostracization with this one) an issue of safety. Things happen on boats, and usually under less-than-ideal conditions. When they do, they are usually solved by beef and ability. Sometimes they happen forward. If a person is not able to work their own foredeck under all possible conditions and get the job done, the issue of their safety is poorly served by the installation of yet more equipment which adds yet more complexity, and better served by a deep contemplation of whether or not they really belong on a sailboat. You can't buy seamanship at West Marine, but folks try awful hard. Unfortunately, there is no substitute.
--Dinasaur, no--Sailor, yes.
Jerk?, maybe...Realist? I try.
Best,
Dave

[commanderpete]

Nothing could be quicker than a furler. Two seconds to furl in or out. I usually just bear off some to furl the sail, but you could do it on any point of sail by easing the sheet if you wanted to.

When you get down to it, the advantages of each are as follows:

Hank On:

A) Don't have to spend $$$ to upgrade

B) Better sail shape

Furler:

A) Easier

B) Perhaps a bit safer

A purist would go for sail shape. A lazy shlub like me would pick convenience. I often run down to the boat after work for a sail. I want to be out and underway in 3 minutes. Otherwise I might sail less. Like I said, I'm lazy, but I sail more than anyone I know.

24 years of hanking on was enough for me.

No right or wrong answer here, just a matter of preference.




http://www.realsailorsmagazine.com/CenterfoldJanFeb2003/Nicole5lg.jpg

[SailorLiz]

Well,. we are crusiers, but I'm a true "racer" at heart at times. I sometimes drive my husband Gary crazy, having him constantly trimming the genoa and watching the telltales. So I guess I'm a purist at heart as I like my sails trimmed to perfection and to make the boat "go fast". A couple of years ago I made a foredeck bag which is large enough to hold the genoa. We keep the sheets attached and it is rigged and ready to go. We can be on the water and sailing in about 10 minutes after getting to the boat without having to hank on any sails. Again, it is a personal choice for everyone. We actually have other cruising sailing friends that apologize that they have a roller furler?? We tell them it doesn't matter to us what you use on your boat. I have attached a picture with the bag on the foredeck.

[SailorLiz]

And here is my good looking foredeck crew.:p

[Mike Goodwin]

All of the racers I know are using foil attached (roller furling) headsails and they are winning races. So the performance issue is a non-issue , because with the good systems you can remove the drum and go on pure slotted foil . These guys have $500,000 boats and use furlers .
I race on an Olsen 25 and we use a slotted headstay , last 5 races were 3 firsts , a second, and a fourth .
The new systems are far superior to the ones we had in the 70's, 80's and early 90's , I'm going with Pro-Furl as soon as I have time to use the boat again.
But, a poorly maintained or designed system is a nightmare , I had a lot of trouble with early 90's vintage Hood furlers on our C&C 40.

[commanderpete]

Here is a headsail "ready bag" like SailorLiz made (nice job). On sale now at Sailnet.com for $56.


http://www.sailnet.com/store/prodimage/160x160/jsijrblg.gif

[Tony G]

I opted for the roller fuling head sail. 130%, 6.5oz. vectran woven by Hood sailmakers.

Because this is my baby, I shot the wad on the main and installed a Tides Marine system too. Full battens, the most roach she can handle, cunningham, reefs, no numbers though.

I'm so broke the missus won't even talk to me-for a while ;) Just wait 'till she sees the bill for the winches. HEY! They were on sale! What was I supposed to do?

[dasein668]

The difference in quality of sail shape between a sail built specifically for a modern-design furler and that of a hanked sail is minor at best. In fact, I would argue that 75% of the sailors out there don't come close enough to optimizing their sail trim to even consider the difference. Go to a good loft. The local loft that I use builds a ton of sails for the racing community, and builds their cruising sails to a similar high standard for shape and quality.

That said, a conversion of an older hank sail to a furler may not be nearly as good in terms of shape. If you are going to upgrade to a furler, do yourself a favor and buy a new purpose-built sail. It is, after all, a SAILboat; I feel strongly that using tired old rags is kind of missing the point! :D

[ebb]

Not rigged yet. But I got a deal on a used Harken screetcher furler (hope that's correct) that you hoist behind the stay with it's own wire luff - with spinner and furler attached. You take the whole shebang down all furled up.

The unit I got had sheet rigged to it and doesn't weigh much. It has to be the only way to go if you have mast lowering capability. The forestay is free for hankon sails and not committed to foils and furler. Never have to leave a furled sail up in a blow. Don't think you can reef the sail but...

It is a morvelous concept, don'tcherthink? Had Bristol Bronze put in an extra hole in the fin of the new stem fitting, now I know why. The furler is less than 5.50" D so perhaps the original three holer will work. :D

[commanderpete]

Vectran sails Tony? Very nice

Ebb, that furler should make using the mast hinge easier.

I can do it with my Harken furler, but I have to walk the furler back while lowering the mast, don't want to put a kink in the foil.

Lowering the mast by myself I just let the furler dangle over the side.

So there I was.....cranking the mast back up....Crank, crank, crank

All the sudden ......BANG

What the.....?????

'Doh !!!!

The furler had got caught under my wooden rubrail

At least I didn't break the furler

[Sprite]

I talked to an old timer. He said put one in incase you need to see and the jib
is blocking your vision(line of sight). Furling it will tell you if a boat is to close.

John