Safety Alert - Ring Cotter Pins

[Theis]

If you use ring cotter pins on the fixed rigging , where there is a clevis pin, or any other critical areas, be sure you tape the ring cotter pin so neither end can be hooked. A thread from a sheet, or who knows what, can hook the end of the ring, pull the wire straight in a moment, or worse, pull it out, and then there is nothing to hold the clevis pin in. This happened to me, and I understand from my rigging friends that this is not an uncommon experience for them.

This actually happened this year sailing up Lake Michigan. It was a dark and stormy night, heading north in the open water under a full main and a storm jib. I went forward to do what men do, wrapping my arms around the two baby shrouds and leaning against the masthead shroud. Looking down, as men do, I noticed that a loose thread of the sheet jib for the storm jib (the one that was flapping going down wind) had hooked on to the ring pin for the lower clevis pin on the masthead shroud, and the ring had been pulled straight. As I leaned over to curl it back, the ring pin fell out. I was lucky and hope no one else is less fortunate.

I also had the clevis pin for the topping lift, which was secured by a ring pin, fall out, but I don't know how that happened.

[ebb]

This is surely a quandry. I thought the common bentback cotter pins were the snaggers. And the round pins an upscale fix. But it does sound like something hooked or wrapped itself around the exposed loop and yanked the pin right out. The round pins are made out of a hardened spring-like material. I would guess you could take a pair of pliers and yank the loop right out oneself.

So the moral of the story is: Use the soft 2 legged bendy pins. Trim the too long legs off after you bend them.

Or much better: I have seen each leg of the pin bent back on itself in a small loop like the head of the cotterpin. Maybe this is the best way with semi-permanent installation like the shrouds and stays

The round cotterpins one might reserve for take aparts. IMCO

:cool:

[Theis]

I switched to the round ones for the same reason - figuring that the legs of a conventional cotter pin could be snagged. This fault with coil cotter pins was a big surprise to me as well. But with the conventional cotter pin, a) if one leg snags, at least the other leg will keep it from falling out, and b) the object that is caught on the leg will not, in addition to straightening the pin, also pull it out, as it will with the coil cotter pins.

My caveat only regards the use of the coil cotter pins for securing clevis pins, not for things that are also held on by other means, such as turnbuckles (screw), or life line adjusters (also screw).

I am undecided about the use of the coil pins to secure clevis pin for an anchor. There are cases when I need to quickly and easily separate the line from the anchor (such as to add extra length, or to use the long anchor line for another purpose) and the coil pin is handy and can be reused. Taping the coil pin may not be the answer since the anchore coil pin is under water when in use. I'll have to work this on out. Any thoughts?

[ebb]

may come by and pull that coil pin out. My level of paranoia on anchor fittings knows no depth. I always thought the only and best thing to do was wire the pin to its mate with a whole lot of turns of soft monel seizing wire.:cool:

[Theis]

I have done that with another anchor where the clevis is a screw type pin, and the monel wire prevents the screw pin from turning. You may have a good idea though even for a straight through clevis pin (non-screw type) - or is that even easier to have pulled out than a ring cotter? Being a soft metal, is the wire inclined to break? I wouldn't think so but your thoughts are appreciated.

[Theis]

Mulling over the issue of ring cotter pins on an anchor shackle, I have concluded that it very possible that the ring could be accidentally and inadvertencly pulled out of the clevis pin while the anchor is in use. The ring pin could get snagged on a rock, a branch, another anchor, the anchor line or whatever. Likely - No. Possible, yes. Conclusion - a No No.

But how about using a conventional cotter pin, one where the ends extend an inch or so beyond the clevis pin, and bending out the two leads only 30 degrees or so, as opposed to bending the leads back on them selves. In the past I would have wrapped the leads around to snug up the pin.

This would make the pin easy to remove when needed, and able to be easily reused. I can't see anyway it could be accidentally be pulled while the anchor is in use.

What have I not thought about? Does anyone have a bad experience with conventional cotter pins where the leads are only slightly bent?

[Bill]

What does Chapman say?

[ebb]

Cotter pins are expendable, right? Being soft they probably work harden if you use them twice, so yer only supposed to use them once anyway. I'd want to make-sure with a new one each time it left my sight.


How about bending the legs straight back on themselves to eliminate snaggability and pullout. But not all the way to the clevis. When you need to remove the clevis snip both legs off the pin and pull the head out. I don't think snuggability is an issue, why can't it be a little loose in the hole - if you have chosen the correct sized cotter pin?

What's going to keep that plier jawed fish from yanking the spread leg pin out?



is that Margery or Ambrose Chapman:confused:

[Theis]

That plier fish can't snag on the loose legs and get the cotter out, and there is too little on the other end of the cotter pin that could snag a plier fish's dog leg. And I don't think the plier fish's jaws are large enough to squeeze the two ends of the cotter pin and push it out. But then, what do I know about plier fish?

As for Chapman, I give up. What does he say?

As for replacing the pin, generally when I need to separate the anchor from the line, there is a degree of immediacy (like setting a sea anchor before an approaching storm, for example, or dropping the hook in deep water), or I am too lazy to get the proper tools, and the ability to separate the line from the anchor quickly, easily and reliably without going below for the tool box is a consideration (but not as important as reliability). A larger boat could carry another 200 feet of 1/2" line, but, as you all know, space is at a premium on the Ariel, and if one 200 ft hank can serve multiple purposes, all the better.

[ebb]

I'm for dedicated lines.

Who wants to mess with cotterpins on a dark and stormy night?


THIS BELONGS ON THE SAFETY ALERT COTTERPINS CHANNEL.
I've been trying to move this post back over to the ring cotterpin thread but I'm unable to erase this to erase this without getting threats from the CIA to erase this

[Bill]

PP 257 - 260 has a discussion of anchor line and securing the rode. He writes under a photo of shackle holding chain to an anchor, "The shackle. . . is also secured by running a short length of non-corroding wire, or nylon cable tie, through the eye of the pin and around the side of the shackle. "

"Be sure to safety the pin to prevent its working out . . . stainless steel wire can be used, but nylon cable tie is easier.

Chapman also shows an anchor bowline with an extra turn around a ring as a secure way to bend the rode to an anchor - for greater security the loose end can be seized to the adjacent line.

[Theis]

Thanks. Very interesting. So much for my alternatives!

[ebb]

Well the clevis pin is the issue here. I don't see that Chapman addresses the problem - which seems pretty real to me. The clevis pins I have known have too small a hole for wiring or a nylon doodlewhapsis. So what is the answer if you've decided you don't like the ordinary cotter pin?

My other thought: is to have dedicated anchor lines at the ready that don't have to be taken apart or reattached at some inopportune time.

[Bill]

IMHO, the last remark makes sense. Once together, let's not take apart . . as soon as you introduce the human element again, Murphey reappears. :p

[Theis]

You're right there. Having it fixed not to take apart is best - and that might be best overall. My situation might be somewhat unique, but I'll lay it all on you.

I now have 575 feet of 1/2" anchor line in the starboard lasarette (plus dock lines), and that is quite a load. 175 plus a 6 foot chain rode and swivel is for the 17# Danforth anchor (good to 35 feet depth, max., assuming the sea bottom is flat, but in many places I should have 400 feet); 200' with swivel for the sea anchor (it is supposed to be 400 feet); and, lastly, this year I acquired an additional 200 feet with swivel that could be added to either. The additional rode that is supposed to be mounted between the two linksas a weight for the sea anchor (and the regular anchor as well) I do not have.

So, you now have a lot of line to get fouled up in the lassarette of a small boat, and a lot of heavy rode that likes to do the same, aided by numerous points/hooks/etc of two anchors and who knows what else. Plus, in any case, when I add the extra length of line, I still have the clevis pin problem, although it is de minimus since the clevis in shackle for the extra length is a screw on type which I can easily secure to protect against unscrewing.

If I could only use the one anchor line, and disconnect and reconnect it quickly and easily, I could eliminate at least 200 ft. or anchore line, a swivel for 1/2" line, and perhaps a rode. What a perk!

As for the cable ties, that is a great idea. They are so easy to put on, and secure. I like that idea. What's the downside?

[Bill]

"As for the cable ties, that is a great idea. They are so easy to put on, and secure. I like that idea. What's the downside?"

Probably that they are more easily cut than wire. The screw-in clevis pin however, will take some time to work its way out. You should become aware of the cut tie before the pin drops. :p

[Theis]

The soft monel wire that I have, purchased from West for the purpose, cuts pretty easily. I am not certain that it is more abrasion resistant than the tie, or more strain resistant than cable ties. My gut tells me that it is six of one, half a dozen of the other. Right? Wrong? Also, is the issue abrasion, or is the principal concern the wire/tie getting caught and jerked loose? That would be my biggest concern. I can't envision a source for abrasion (except conceivably over many many anchor deployments over a multi year period).

[Mike Goodwin]

Just a question , who has ever lost an anchor on this list ?
I never have in over 30 years of crusing and racing lost an anchor due to failure at the shackle or pin or wire if there . Quite often I have just given extra umpft on the pin with pliers and no wire to secure it .
Only anchor lost ,was recovered later , was due to chafe on the rode at the bow chock . My partner in the boat didn't rig the chafing gear and it parted during a snowy Nor'easter in Febuary , which caused us to be the feature of the evening news " 2 local sailors go for a sail in the blizzard "
with the help of the local fire station we got the boat pushed off the rocks ( actually the keel hit bottom before hull hit rocks )and sailed away to the marina across the harbor and to windward of us , in a complete whiteout . Oh, did I forget to say the motor conked out 20 yards from shore at the beginning , so we had to sail or spend more than the value of the boat on a crane to retrieve it from the spot 10' above sealevel where it was floating (and my partner thought I was crazy when I bent on the sails before shoving off .)
Actually I enjoyed the sail, was nice and quiet except for the tug traffic we could not see .
Sailing in the snow is really fun except for the cold , you can see the wind as it blows around the sails and thru the slot , made me a believer of the 'slot effect'.
Anyway , I never lost an anchor and never had a pin back out of the shackle but I must say , I rarely anchor in a hard bottom .

[Theis]

Interesting story. A snow squall is a bit different up north because it can also be accompanied by an more dangerous component - icing. You don't want to be out when the rigging and deck get iced up and the spray freezes on contact. I had that happen once many years ago in the Ariel, and although never in peril, I never want to go through it again. The ice didn't just melt when the snow stopped either. The snow was neat though - as was the experience.

Back to the anchor:

I have never lost an anchor, although my anchor has broken loose on a couple occasions - with unpleasant results including grounding on the rocks. One of the terrors a sailor at anchor faces is that 2:00 AM squall with 60 mph plus winds, seas kicking up, and concern about whether the anchor will hold. It is enough to wake you up from a deep sleep to check on whether the anchor is holding. There is a degree of comfort knowing the pin will not inadvertently pull out. It is in the same category as knowing you have enough scope, having a chain rode, and having a heavy enough anchor.

Sailors can be perfectionissts - to a fault.

Now back to the anchor and cotter pins.

I had an interesting conversation with a racing large boat sailor last night, and he informed me that he had raised the same question with two marinas where he stored his boat over the winter. They both stated that a cotter pin with a slight bend (like 30 degrees on a leg - don't know if that is one leg or two) is every bit as secure as a pin bent 180% back on itself. Bending the pin back only creates work to get it undone.

Armed with that info, and not having any one that has had an adverse experience with a pin whose legs are only bent back a tad, that is the route that seems best to go, unless I hear of a bad experience otherwise. As for the screw type pins, those are unreliable, in my experience, even if tightened with a pliers/wrench, unless also secured with something like Monel wire to prevent the clevis from turning.

[Bill]

Saturday I learned that ring cotter pins are a nemisis wherever things move:(

We were beating to the first mark in the July Island Interclub regatta when there was a rifle shot. Actually, it was the lower block on the mainsheet traveler assembly separating from the car. After things settled down, we discovered that the shackle pin had left the shackle holding the block to the car. And what did Garhauer supply for a cotter pin? That's right, the infamous ring cotter pin! :eek: Ditto for the opposing block.

Needless to say, the ring pins will be removed and replaced with the old fashioned kind of cotter pins.

Luckily, we found the shackle and its pin on the cockpit sole so the expense of the lession will be minimal. :cool:

[dasein668]

This year I started using welding rod on all my turnbuckles for just this reason... I forget where I read about this ideaÑBrian Toss, maybe? At any rate, the idea is to just use a single piece of steel welding rod which goes between the two holes and the ends get folded back on themselves . Nothing to snag, and even if it did the welding rod is extremely strong in comparison to cotters and split rings.

[Bill]

Here are the shackle and its pin . .

[Bill]

What the assembly looks like at the other end. No action here, but will tape the cotter pin to be sure.

[Bill]

Another use for line controlled main sheet travelers:cool:

[marymandara]

While they are without question a pain to install, I like the stainless split rings from the fishing isle...the kind that look like key rings but smaller and SS.
Sometimes it is hard to find ones large enough in diametr of ring and small enough in diameter of wire, but if you look every time you pass the fishing gear in a store eventually you will take care of most of the boat. These cannot snag on anything and pull out of shape or easily wear thru...my own ill experience with the 'cotter rings' like Bill had give out.

For turnbuckles, a simple lashing with cord or seine twine between the bodies of the buckles (assuming open-bodied turnbuckles are involved) will prevent the bodies from rotating and eliminate forever the need for cotter pins in the turnbuckles thenselves.

Best,
Dave