Running Rigging

[noeta-112]

Before I forget .... there is a clearance sale and (free shipping til 30 Mar) on lines and rope at www.sailnet.com.

Still avail are 1/4" 1/2" & 5/8" sta-set and sta-set x among others.

Not trying to advertise here, just thought to throw that out as part of the discussion.

I'm planning on upgrading my sheets and was wondering if there is any concensus as to line sizes for the main sheet, etc.

3/8'" seems to be a bit on the small side (not strength wise) but as far as comfort goes. Have any of you guys switched to a larger size and if so what are your feelings in this regard?

I've never had much experience sailing other than throwing an old cut down turnabout sail on my canoe and ......well, maybe I'll go into that much later... Ideas?

[S.Airing]

I have a 3/8 main sheet on Sirocco.3/8 has a breaking strength of about 3500lbs to 7,000lbs. depending what you use.More than enough for a 160 square foot main sail.All my control blocks are Schaefer #5 series with a breaking strenght of 1750lbs and can go up to 1/2 I just never saw any reason to go larger.I have 1/2 sheets on a 250 square foot 165 genoa,I`m replacing these sheets this year and will probably down size,dont want all the weight 1/2 lines are heavy, or want the extra expense.All of these older boats came with over sized lines.My buddies 34 Crealock has a 1/2 inch main sheet.

[D. Fox]

Thanks for the heads-up...I want to replace the sheets for my genoa. Can someone explain how to determine proper length for headsail sheets when buying? Obviously, I need to specify a length before I order them. Thanks,

Dan

[S.Airing]

My sheets on Sirocco for the 165 are 26 1/2 feet long,I dont have an inch to spare but I dont like alot of extra line lying around.

[noeta-112]

D.Fox,

The manual ...available from this site.... specifies 28' x 7/16" ...
it may have specified 28 1/2 ' ... can't remember exactly.

I ordered 30' of sta-set 7/16" to be sure. At the time it was available on clearance too. The available items have diminished somewhat so unsure if 7/16" remains. Seems to me that 1/2" & 5/8" are still available as far as the clearance line goes. Still free shipping till 31st of March.

Russ

[S.Airing]

I think 30 feet is good,it gives you a little more room for jibing,you didnt say what size sail you had.The main sheet is 55 feet long,I hope thats not what you ordered.

[noeta-112]

D.Fox .....S.Airing

I ordered 60' to allow for 2pcs 30' each for genoa sheets. Sorry for the lapse.

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check it out

[MarkCreeker]

I plan to replace the halyards on #202. the Manual suggests replacing the wire with rope under "Performance Modifications". I'm not that interested in performance as it relates to racing, but I am interested in safety and ease of use.

What's the opinion out there on the idea of replacing the rope/wire halyards with all rope (of a good no-stretch type)?

[Mike Goodwin]

If you have ever been "fish-hooked" by an old wire halyard you wouldn't even ask .

[Scott Galloway]

Since I have not been up my mast, but have been wondering about all rope halyards, Mark's question might be rephrased, "Do the main and halyard sheaves on top of the mast accommodate all rope halyards as originally manufactured?

[Mike Goodwin]

I'm in the process of re-rigging the mast on Commander 105 for Robert Lemasters , the old was rope and the new will be rope too . All the hardware at the masthead looked good .
When the sails are down , the rope is in the sheave even in a wire/rope halyard .
The problem is when you go the other way and replace rope with wire in blocks designed for rope only , that will eat the sheave up very quickly . At least that has been my experience .

[MarkCreeker]

Gee, Mike, that sounds like an emphatic rope not wire response.

[Mike Goodwin]

With the older ropes of 20+ years ago , wire/rope was the way to go . The new ropes don't stretch at all like the stuff we had up to the 1980's .
When the Ariels were built the wire/rope was laid (twisted) not braided and would stretch like a rubber band , you had to get the wire down to the winch or cleat to get a good set.

We just used Stay-set X for all of Commander 105's rigging , I did use 3/32" wire for the main topping lift ( it was rope ), as it is shackled to the masthead , the last few feet down to the boom will be rope .
Only reason to use wire , it is cheaper than really good rope , but do you have the fids and a knowledge of splicing ?

[MarkCreeker]

I'd have to pay for the rope/wire splice, although West Marine sells a 60' rope wire combo pre-spliced. On the other hand, I had been looking at Sta-set X for the halyards. Looks like a good choice, low stretch, easier to splice myself (learn a new skill!), and as you pointed out, easier on the hands.

Thanks for the input.

[noeta-112]

replaced the wire/rope halyard on NOETA this spring with 3/8" sta-set X and all is well & quieter.

I initially thought the sheeve might be too narrow but seems ok....afterall it handled the rope portion of the combo before..

GO ROPE!

[MarkCreeker]

A more basic question... I acquired Lady J by paying the past due yard bills on her. She's in good shape, but has been in dry dock for 5 years or more. I just assumed that the running rigging should be replaced. However, the wire shows no fraying, and the ropes don't look worn either, with the exception of the flag halyard. The jib halyard is in a Cruising Design roller furler, and is all rope - looks like Sta-set or Sta-set X.

I plan on getting the boat in the water for the remainder of the season. The Long Island Sound doesn't get the kind of wind SF Bay does. Anyway, any advice for what I should look for to determine that the rope really needs to be replaced so that I'm not just doing it out of ignorance?

[MarkCreeker]

I think I found a good reply to my own question.

<http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=woodto033>

[commanderpete]

I think the lines would look real bad before they would break.

Mine are pretty old. I took them off, gave them a good wash, and turned them. Still look kinda dingy. When I replace them it will be mostly for looks.

Low stretch lines are a priority on the halyards, just so the sail doesnt creep down in high winds.

Letting the halyards slap against the mast while you're away from the boat is what wears them out.

The furler line should be in good shape, because you dont want that sucker to let go on you.

Of course, new hi-tech lines are nice to have, but this stuff tends to add up fast $$$$$$$$

I'm usually more concerned that my dock lines are in good shape and won't get chafed through.

[commanderpete]

This is a list of running rigging failures, in rough order of least to most disasterous. Of course, these only happen when its real windy.

1) Jib sheet breaks. You could haul in on the other sheet and come about.

2) Outhaul parts. This happened to me once. I was able to come into the wind and rig a new line without having to drop the sail.

3) Mainsheet busts. This happened to me too. The line didn't break, but the stopper knot let go and the line ran through the blocks. Now the boom is out 90 degrees with the sail flapping away and no means to get the boom in. Couldn't get the boat to come into the wind either. Ended up turning on the engine to get the boat into the wind and drop the sail.

4) Reefing line snaps. The sail can take a tremendous beating before you get this under control, especially at the grommets. Kinda tricky running a new line under these conditions too.

5) Topping lift breaks. If the sail is down, the boom will drop into the cockpit, possibly onto some unsuspecting crewmember. I would put this further down the list if the boom ever happened to fall on me.

6) Halyard parts. Naturally, the sail will drop and you can gather it in. Problem is, now you have to go up the mast to run a new line.

7) Halyard gets stuck in the sheave. Theis was just describing this experience. Sail won't go up or down. Can't cut the line either. Wonder how he got out of that predicament.

8) Furler line snaps. Now the genny is all the way out and can't be furled in. You can slowly turn the furler by hand or drop the sail. The real disaster is if this happens when you're away from the boat. The wind can unfurl the sail and shred the sail in short order. Another reason not to leave the genny up when the boat is in the yard over the winter. I've seen genoas ripped to bits more than once. When my boat is in the water, I keep the genoa in bondage with the sheets wrapped around it, and sometimes a sail tie.


Well, there you have it. I'm gonna try not to work my way further down the list.

[MarkCreeker]

commanderpete - I always enjoy your "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" advice. I'll do one last check of the cordage, and hopefully save my money for the kids' college instead.

[MarkCreeker]

Whoops - was writing my last reply while you were sending yours. I think I'll be a bit more careful in my inspection now. Perhaps you can help me test the topping lift...:)

[commanderpete]

I really should set aside a little money to replace my halyards.

I just can't figure out what I spend all my spare cash on.

[Theis]

I certainly doesn't look like you're spending much on fabric.

[Theis]

The answer to your question about how I got the sail down is noteworthy. I was sailing across the straits to the Manitou Islands (about 9 miles), and wanted to put up a larger foresail. The 100% jib got stuck about a third of the way down and wouldn't go up or down.

As a result, I went to the closest dock, the government dock on North Manitou island, hoping that by pulling the halyard from the dock, so the pull would be almost horizontal, and shaking the wire halyard, I could free up the halyard. That didn't work.

All afternoon I tried everything, I used line to tie the jib to the forestay, as high up as I could reach, in a rather futile attempt to keep the jib from flapping.

Stricktly through chance, the jib halyard shackle opened up and the jib came down. Now I had the halyard flapping in the wind. I tried to hook it with an extended whisker pole, and failed. Then, a summer park intern with good eyes helped me and got the halyard shackle snared. I tied the extended whisker pole to the outside shroud (The pole extended above the spreaders)

Having spent the day trying to get this problem resolved. the people I had been working with suggested I leave the boat at the dock and stay overnight (Signs said 30 minute limit). So I stayed.

That was the night we were socked with hurricane force winds. I look back on that occasion and wonder what would have been left of my boat if that jib hadn't come down, or if I had not been able to secure the halyard shackle.

So that is the story of why I was in exposed water the night of the big storm.

[commanderpete]

That certainly was a pickle. I have had the pleasure of trying to snag the end of a halyard that has gone up the mast. No fun. I had to duct tape two boat hooks together, with a hook at the end made out of a coat hanger. Trying to snag that line kinda made me dizzy.

I've been using a heavier headboard shackle sewn into an eye at the end of the main halyard. The weight of the shackle seems to counterbalance the weight of the line and keep it from riding up the mast.

The first lines I'm gonna replace are my genoa sheets. They're way oversized--half inch thick. Thick lines are actually pretty nice. You only need one turn around the winch. You also get a good grip in your hand with a thick line. The self-tailer grabs it well.

Unfortunately, the weight of the sheet tends to collapse the corner of the sail when the wind is light and you're on a run.

Also, if the genoa should flap when I come about in high winds, the attached sheet starts whipping around. The thick line begins to beat me about the head and body until I winch it in tight. It sounds funny, but when the line is wet its actually painful. Gave me a fat lip once.

I get slapped in the face enough already.

[Theis]

With those nomiinally clad guests you entertain, I don't understand why you get slapped in the lip so often. Is there a story there that you want to share?

I am aware of the problem with the flailing clew of the jib. I carry two blocks on the end of my jib sheets (One on each sheet. I have one set of sheets for all foresails except for the gennaker)) which can be used with the storm jib in very heavy winds. The jib sheet goes from the eye on the cabin top, through the block and back to the block on the forward track on the deck and on to the winch.

The blocks I selected to mount on the sheet at the jib are theoreticallly undersized for the line, but I chose them because I didn't want a large weight flailing around with the clew. So far I haven't experienced any untoward problem (The blocks are not the smallest Harkens, but the next size up).

[commanderpete]

Sounds good.

If anybody is still interested in new halyards, Sailnet has them in Sta Set X with a shackle already spliced in. $79 for 95 feet.

A bit long, but it's all set to go.

http://www.sailnet.com/store/selectlist.cfm?list_id=115&source=4

[MarkCreeker]

Thanks for the tip. $40 cheaper than West Marine!

[mikeroth]

I'm just about ready to launch my boat after hours and hours of work. I need some help with what type of running rigging I need. All my rope is old and needs replacing. I don't know what size rope I need and how much. I also need some kind of drawing showing the layout of the ropes and how they are routed.

[CapnK]

Mike -

You can use the line you already have on the boat to figure out what you need.

For your halyards, go to WalMart or another discount store, and get a couple 100' packs of cheap 1/4" line, and a roll of duct tape. Rip off about a 2 feet piece of duct tape. Lay the bitter end of your halyard (the end that doesn't have a shackle, that doesn't attach to the sail), on the duct tape, long enough to use up 1/2 to 2/3 of your tape. Now butt the end of the 1/4" line up to the bitter end of the halyard, and wrap the duct tape tightly around both lines. Once that is done, you can pull the halyard up (backwards from how you'd raise the sail), the 1/4" line will be stuck to it. Pull it all the way through and back down to deck level, then take the tape off and tie both ends of the 1/4" line off (a little extra never hurts). You will do the exact opposite of this to put the new halyards on, once you get them.

When you've got your halyards down, you can then measure them for thickness and length, and order what you need.

There are lots of types of lines out there, all for different purposes, but a very common halyard line that I like to use is called "StaySet". A halyard line is a different kind of line than what you'd use for your sheets, anchor, or dock lines - it needs to be non-stretchy. A good line for the sheets will be a lot softer than the StaySet.

As far as the layout, you might need to explain that a bit more, or post a picture. Do the lines come back across the deck and cabin top to the cockpit?

[commanderpete]

The length of each line may depend on how the boat was modified from original.

Like Kurt says, what came with the boat is a good starting point.

Is the mast up? Might want to replace everything that goes up the mast first and then sort out the lines on deck using the old stuff for awhile

I ended up buying most of my lines from these people

http://www.cajuntrading.ca/