Teak grate for Ariel cockpit

[Jon]

I have had A-205 (Sirocco) undergoing refurb since last Spring and I hope to splash her this Spring. Part of the work will include relocating the fuel filler port starboard and aft, instead of leaving it in the center of the cockpit floor and rather than just reinstalling the filler cap in the floor, I'm thinking of installing a water tight rectangular access port in the floor so I have access to the rear of the engine and prop shaft, etc. should that need ever arise.

So, to cover the access port, I want to get a teak grate for the cockpit floor and I was wondering if anyone on this board can give me any guidance or suggestion about the types of grates to consider, who to contact to build one and if you feel there are any disadvantages in having one.

[Lucky Dawg]

I really like mine. It is in three sections, so they're easy to pull for winter storage, cleaning, etc. The design for mine (came with the boat) is fairly intricate - I'd be happy to snap close ups of the joinery and configuration if it would be useful to you. (Pictures in this post (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=15371#post15371))
Alternately, in Don Casey's 100 Fast and Easy Boat Improvements (http://www.amazon.com/100-FAST-EASY-BOAT-IMPROVEMENTS/dp/0071440550/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295291084&sr=8-2http://www.amazon.com/100-FAST-EASY-BOAT-IMPROVEMENTS/dp/0071440550/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295291084&sr=8-2), he has a layout for a pretty simple one. I've thought that if I ever needed to replace mine, I might use his plan. The instructions also include how to install cleats to make the same grate convert your cockpit into one large berth for sleeping under the stars. There are a number of clever projects in the book - worth your 10 bucks, I think.

p.s. The book has a couple great ideas on efficient stowage as well - one I will use eventually describes wire baskets that fit into 2 long slotted cleats inside the aft of each cockpit locker. Some good ideas on making good use of otherwise dead space....

[Jon]

You bet, that's exactly what I want. I think what I'm gonna do is find someone on WWW who builds them and just order one, but I had not thought of having one made in 3 sections, which sound like a great idea. Do you suppose that you could find out from a PO who made that grate? thanks, j

[Lucky Dawg]

I just sent Matt a note. Will let you know. You could probably get by with two sections for an Ariel. LD's grate pieces fit easily into the trunk of my Passat wagon...

[CapnK]

Jon -

I've a friend, Charlie Jones, who is a very experienced woodworker/boatbuilder that could make a grate like that. He is back landside right now, working on padding the cruising kitty (he and his wife have been out for about 2 years on their Rhodes 24 - see here (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2504.0.html) - that they restored from a nasty, gutted hull to a *very nice* cruiser). If needed/wanted, I'll put you in touch with him to see if he could get that done for you. I know he has a commitment to repair the hull/ama of a 36' plywood Cross tri before they head back out later this spring, so he'll have tools and materials, and has done that sort of thing before...

[jshisha]

If the cost is reasonable I would like to order a grate for Commander 131.

[Jon]

Kyle and Kurt, I would be so appreciative if you all could get me in touch with your contacts on the grate. I've got a bit of time before I'll need it, but time passes quickly and I'd love to have it in before the season starts, here in Oklahoma. You can PM me and I'll get back to you. Thanks again, guys. j

[Lucky Dawg]

If the cost is reasonable I would like to order a grate for Commander 131.

As I have a couple weak spots in mine, when I had mine repaired last spring, I asked for a ballpark to replace it. This guy said probably a $Grand$! - hence thinking of Casey's simpler plan. So, I don't know what your standards are for "reasonable." Kurt's friend, having done it before, may be less expensive. The teak is expensive, but the labor is another thing.

PO Matt, tells me he bought my boat with the grate. I left a message with the owner 2-prior and will advise if I hear anything. That being said, whoever created it, did so at least 15 years ago.

Offer for close-up shots of the configuration stands if required.

[CapnK]

I sent a message to CJ referencing this thread, I imagine he'll get back to me when he sees that and I'll let you know what he has to say. :)

[Lucky Dawg]

Heard from earlier PO, Rich - the teak grate on Lucky Dawg was produced 45 years ago! Pretty amazing construction. He said about $3000 for his shop (YachtWorks in Sturgeon Bay, WI http://www.yachtworks.net / rich@yachtworks.net ) to construct for a Commander. Rich suggested finding a nice retired carpenter for the job!

[ebb]

www.cruisingconcepts.com
sell kits and grating grids for $70 and $125 a square.
They have a whole list of doodahs, so they may be an import outfit.
If you order from them make sure the teak is Burmese.

Interesting they show the grate FRAMELESS in their cockpit photo.
If the grate is interlocking and epoxy glued you wouldn't need a frame.
MAYBE. Forget how truncated the cockpit sole is.*
Except for all the ends sticking out - but how often will the boards be up?
Picture on the site: frameless doesn't look bad at all.

They also show slatted floorboard in the cockpit. Something we haven't talked about.
This doesn't look bad at all either.
Slats will give a finished look right off, no framing.
Running off at the ends would even be acceptable.
I think Folkboats did it.

Varnishing grating is impossible, for sanity you let let it gray without any finish.
But the slats could be varnished succesfully.
They'd look spiffy!.
I would try low maintenance LeTonkinois here.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________
* The gratings from CruisingConcepts are one inch grid.
So if our cockpits get narrower toward the back, the grating would be cut to fit
and there would be a lot of nasty sharp short cross pieces sticking out.
(I would make a carboard template to see what's what.)
Imco an extra length of long stuff could be glued on to the siede of the grating
after triming off the short ends - thereby making a smooth side that could then be trimmed to fit.
Easy.
The same technique could be used around the rudder tube if needed.

[Lucky Dawg]

They also show slatted floorboard. Something we never talk about. This doesn't look bad at all either. ......Varnishing grating is impossible, so you'd for sanity let it gray.

Casey's version is slatted - like the one on the right at the link you offered. Honestly, the grate is NOT comfortable on bare feet. I almost always wear deck shoes, but my kids don't tend to. Cool as it appears, it ain't a comfy surface.

Springtime teak cleaning and teak oil is a nice clean-slate way for me to kick off the season. Looks sumptuous at the outset. Its greying over the summer doesn't bother me - reminds me of it getting lots of good use - or sunshine - both are good with me.

p.s. plan from Practical Sailor for construction attached

[Tony G]

Several years ago there was a few photos posted on this forum of a Commander located in Italy. It was a beauty (as they all are) with black topsides. I believe she had a slatted platform in her cockpit and it was one thing that made her stick out in my mind. Unfortunately the computer and all of those painstakingly researched boat photos are long gone...bummer. Maybe Mike or Pete have saved them somewhere. The slatted version would require less material and at the price of teak...

[ebb]

Not being argumentative,
BUT
you know if you make a slatted floorboard you can position the slats as close together as your feet tolerate.
And you can ease the edges.
Might even be happy hippy foot massage quality.

If made in two long HALVES the boards could be hinged (and thereby secured in place.)
and the sole hosed and cleaned.
Hinged up and clipped to the side well, they would stay up and stay dry
If the hinges had loose pins the floorboards could also be removed.
And mounted at seat level for a 'double' bunk under the stars.


Teak rough is $25 a board foot these days.
I may do something like the above in
mahogany. The poor man's teak.


Looking at the cockpit grate photo in the Practical Sailor article,
I'd pull a toenail off in those HOLES!
I think that Popular Mechanics style article by Practical Sailor
scares me away from gratings once and for all.
I didn't like either method.

I made framed grates once with the cross pieces nibbed into the frame, you have to be precise, your planning nearly perfect.
The pieces have to fit tight to look good. Lot of waste, lot of dust,
lot of time.
You will end up with something gorgeous, no fastenings.

My slat floorboards will have rows of screw heads showing - no bungs.
If the outboard motor gouges a slat I can replace it.:o

TO EACH HIS OWN SOLE

[Jon]

After reading the latest comments, it might make more sense to build or buy something along the lines of the floor boards or a cabin sole, rather than the grate. I don't mind the occasional refinishing but like the rest of you I prefer comfort and keeping mine and my shipmates toenails intact. I'll look into the floorboards and get back. Thanks for the input and for the links, everyone.

[Lucky Dawg]

Casey's plan (attached PDF is a smidge blurry, but at a nicer resolution, it was a huge file!)

Looks very straightforward to me.

[ebb]

When Casey hijacked that idea from me he didn't tell us how
fun it would be to have that wheel and pedestal in the middle
of the starry bunk.
Nice drawings.

TOP slats can be placed closer (you need to provide slots for the boards to swell when soaked)
if you hinge them they and the bottom of the cockpit can dry out. and not get funky.
Also the drains are visible when you arrive back at the boat after being away.

Don't know about cutting the floorboard in half the short way
So how will you support this? Two citizens on the starry pallet is a bit of weight.
And you might even be walking on it.
If the floorboard is in two halves the long way, the wood on the long sides can be beefed up to take that extra suspended weight.
This could also be planned so that drainage is clear under the boards.
But the boards being nearly six feet long will still need a prop in the middle to make sure nothing can bend and crack. Simple enough.

We'd still have a bit of interesting framing to do around the vertical tiller, and slanted rudder tube.
I believe the boards should cover the whole surface of the sole, from end to end. They should go to the back.
A cleat is needed across the back of the cockpit so that the perimeter of whatever you want elevated gets good support.
If two boards swing up from the sides the hole for the tiller can be minimized.
I think what I'm trying to say is that if you choose to split the floorboards, each half is a stand alone.
Can't just make a single floor cover and then casey it in half. Short or long.
I also would NOT make this from soft wood, or any wood that will raise splinters.
Some woods Casey recommends will drive a splinter into your foot, knee or hand without trying.

But at least it's not a pedestal and wheel in your bed.:rolleyes:


You know, the slat design as Casey has it is not really correct.
You got these bearing pieces crossing all over the floor of the cockpit impeding the flow of water and dirt.
My immediate reaction to this is put long pieces under short pieces.
So imagine slats crossing side to side on 1 1/2" under pieces. Possible!
It would make it easier for water to leave the scene.
Ipe hardwood* would make a good substitute. It is dense strong stuff and could be made thinner: 3/4" rather than 1 1/2.

We will be raising the floor level of the cockpit. Something to consider.
Floorboards that will be used only on the sole can be lighter construction.
Those used for bunking will probably have to be heavier.

ARIEL COCKPIT WELL: width at bridge deck: sole 26.75" - at seats 27.875
Width aft sole: 22.75" - aft seats: 24". Length of cockpit at sole: 62.5"
Height of seat from sole at bridge: 16.5". Aft: 15".
Sorry, don't have length of well at seat height.
It looks like if the boards or the grate will be used double duty,
a cleat of some sort will have to be put around the well just below seat height.
That will will have to make up for the floorboard/grate being a bit smaller in width and length.




__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________
* IPE was heavily marketed worldwide and has now become scare and expensive. It was marketed as sustainably harvested, unlike Burmese teak, but who knows? The wood needs no coating, won't raise a splinter, doesn't raise grain or get hairy - on the decks I've seen cracks very little. Imco could easily live in the bottom of the cockpit. It is heavy (also called ironwood). Without a coating it turns into a very respectable smooth grey color. It is too hard to make grating - and it produces dirty sticky dust when milling. It'll last 100 years minimum in your cockpit. Non slip when not coated. Doesn't get moldy, doesn't rot.

[Ariel 109]

Teak is such an amazing wood to use outdoors. This is picture of the address plate on the Lockwood de Forest house in Greenwich Village just above Washington Square Park. Built in 1887 the carved teak exterior trim of this beautiful home is still in such great condition.

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GV/GV006LockwoodDeForestHouse.htm

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/100_0026.jpg

[ebb]

Amazing that the teak exposed to NYCity summers and winters kept such sharp detail.


Apropos beautiful woodwork:
I've always been astonished at Green & Green teak and mahogany bungalows - the ulitimate in Arts & Crafts.
If you want some inspiration look at Darrel Peart's Green & Green furniture.
www.furnituremaker.com
Now there is a style that the filty rich could design into a DAY SAILER.
Perhaps a modern ChoyLee in Green&Green!!!

[Ariel 109]

Amazing that the teak exposed to NYCity summers and winters kept such sharp detail.


I find it amazing too! Lockwood de Forest moved to California and lived out his final decades as a painter and garden designer in Santa Barbara. Here's a sketch by him.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/153674_t479.jpg

The Greene brothers work I've admired for years having visited the Gamble House in Pasadena many times. I gave my nephew a book titled "Greene and Greene for Kids" for Christmas. And the Met Museum has a few nice objects of theirs in it's collection, we make do. Don't forget the Hall brothers who built Greene and Greene's best stuff, furniture included.

A golden time, way back then, to have lived in California. A least for people with some means and the those who catered to their needs. Still a beautiful place to live, although sadly not so wide open.

[Lucky Dawg]

So Jerry asked for photos of Lucky Dawg's teak cockpit grate. There are full sized images at https://picasaweb.google.com/100988960116603858412/Teak# (You can view them there, but you'll need the Picasa program on your computer to download them. If that is a pain, feel free to PM me and I can send you the lot of them via email.)

What is remarkable to me about this grate (which was constructed while I was still in diapers - circa mid 1960's) is that though the commander cockpit tapers fore-to-aft, the symmetry of the lines barely reflects this. The transition is very subtle. Complimentary to Alberg's beautiful work on these boats.

7814 7813 7812 7811

[Lucky Dawg]

Upside down pictures
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7819

7820

7821

[Chance]

Kyle,
Thanks for the detailed, high resolution photos of Lucky Dawg's teak grate. That piece of work (I would venture) would cost well over $1,200 dollars to have crafted today.

[Commander 147]

Thanks for the detailed, high resolution photos of Lucky Dawg's teak grate. That piece of work (I would venture) would cost well over $1,200 dollars to have crafted today.

I not so sure Mike (C227) will want me to make him one while I make mine when he sees how much it will cost in materials alone not counting many many hours of labor.

And just in case you did not see my thanks for the pictures in your other post thanks again Kyle.

[Lucky Dawg]

You're welcome. T'wernt nothin'. I'll be excited to see you master carpenters duplicate (and likely improve upon) the design. Randy, the 2nd owner (of 5) of Lucky Dawg said his shop in the Wisconsin Dells would charge close to $3000 to make it!! As I mentioned earlier in this thread, he recommended finding a retired carpenter to take it on as a project. My grandfather who was a skilled carpenter and finisher probably would have loved the challenge. You guys could knock it out in a weekend!

Yes Jerry. I'll be happy to measure the slats and perimeter pieces. Sailed today before I got your post - will be back again before week's end. I'm guessing the perimeter was made of 5/4 and sawn down to fit the edges. The slats are a couple different thicknesses - latitudinal has "teeth" and longitudinal is just flat.

[Lucky Dawg]

Jerry - at long last, I remembered to measure the slats in the grate. The outside edges are slightly under an inch (I sure they're actually a full inch, but slightly worn at the edges), the crossbeams are 1/2" and the fore to aft slats are 1/8". If it were up to me, I might nest them together so that 1/8" material isn't part of the plan. Granted, the grate is 45-ish years old, but that is where my weak spots are. I updated the photos on Picasa with some additional details re some of the more complicated joinery - https://picasaweb.google.com/100988960116603858412/Teak#

[Tony G]

Kyle,

Thanks for the expose`on Lucky Dawg's grate. I never would have imagined 1/8" material anywhere in the design. It sure looks healthier than 1/8".

I, for one, did not look that good at 45 years old!

[Commander227]

I always envisioned both the Lats and longs to be datoed and nestled. I never thought of making the longs thinner w/o a dato. That knocks the work in half as well as the precition needed. This is a project I think I would love to take on, but know I never will. Cutting a sheet of Marine plywood out to fit the cockpit sole and drilling a grid of half inch holes would be more my speed. I'd be done in a couple of hours but somehow I doubt I'd get the same effect.

[Commander 147]

Kyle

First let me say thanks for the update. I really appreciate you taking the time to provide the info to me and anyone else interested in such a project. I will have to admit I also did not think any of the parts were only 1/8" thick with the perpendicular pieces. And per your thoughts I'm not sure I would want anything that thin. But when the time comes I will need to play with the design some and see what works the best. Perhaps making the perimeter pieces thicker will be the key. At any rate having the information on how yours was made is VERY helpful so thanks again Kyle.

[Lucky Dawg]

This is a project I think I would love to take on, but know I never will.
Back to post 16 in this thread, you could knock this one http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2245-Teak-grate-for-Ariel-cockpit&p=22614#post22614 out in an afternoon.

And no problem Jerry. I'm just looking forward to someone refining and recreating it at some point.