Outboard Discussions

[bkeegel2]

Went out about a month ago and that *@$#!~& old outboard refused to start for the trip back in--had to call TowBoat US and everything. So I broke down and bought a brand new electric start Mercury 9.9. Just finished installing the key start and the new starter/deep cycle battery that I chose.

Haven't had a chance to try it out yet--the East Coast low that effected NY made this last wknd a bummer here too(we had 40 kt gusts and 6-8 ft waves on the Ches. Bay). But I have started the motor and I've given my dock lines a good thorough stretching.

Well. I hope this weekend will give me a chance to get out of the slip and burn up that 25:1 break-in gas! ;p

[elie fouere]

I am glad the new engine works well. I am running a 1981 Envirude 9.9, which pushes the boat quiet well. But the block weights about 100 pounds and swamps the well. How much does your engine weight, ? I have heard of a nissan 9.9 that is about 60#s.

[bkeegel2]

My Mercury is 74#'s The last one that I had was 85# and I definately would get water in the lazerette when sailing, but mostly because of the heeling of the boat. Once the boat was level, the lazerette water would drain back out. I have only been sailing w/ the new motor once and did not notice the water filling the lazeratte, but I was not heeled very much.

[PaulRoth]

I've only had my Ariel (number 3 hundred something) for a couple of years, and it's the first sailboat I've ever owned. The engine is a 7 or 8 hp evinrude. The whole bottom end is about corroded away (the fins are almost gone) but the motor still runs fine. Also the engine doesn't seem to have a lot of effect when trying to back up.

Does anyone know how to repair or at lease stop the corrosion (I take it there should be an anode somewhere), and any advice on maybe a better engine, or something I'm doing wrong would be great.

Thanks

Paul Roth

[Mike Goodwin]

Dont leave it in the water when you are not using it . You can get a lower unit housing to replace the old one .

[D. Fox]

I replaced the outboard on my B27 last fall. I had an old 2 stroke Evinrude 9.9 HP longshaft. I couldn't get it to run consistently and it left me in some very bad situations. I ended up replacing it with a new 4 stroke Nissan 5 HP long shaft. Cost me $1100 at BoatUS. Some feel that's not enough power for the boat, but it moves me along just fine (4 knots @ half throttle in calm water). Folks warned me it wouldn't be enough in bad weather, and that's partly true, I suppose. During last years Good Old Boat regatta, I kept up with the Triton fleet (A4s) heading out to the start line into a 20 kt headwind. Next day, though, near my own marina after a somewhat scary 25 mile sail, I couldn't make more than a knot or so into 35-40 kt winds under the motor alone and had to motorsail.

I went with the smaller motor because I wanted a 4 stroke but wanted to keep the weight down in the lazarette (B27s tend to squat with two much weight back there). I think its a fair compromise for the low price, excellent fuel economy, quiet operation, and through prop exhaust (no more stinky cockpit and can leave the lazarette hatch down). I figure lots of people have gone around the world without any motor at all, so I should be OK on the Chesapeake with something less than the recommended 10 HP.

Soooo, the point of that long diatribe is that the 4 stroke 5 HP Nissan is a good motor at a good price, and would probably do just fine on your Ariel.

[Bill]

Fox makes good sense. Keep it light at the stern of the Ariel/Commander. It also makes it easier to R & R the engine. Less chance of doing damage to yourself:p

MaiKa'i runs a 5 HP Merc two stroke. Plenty of power for most conditions. An 8 HP Nissan / Yamaha 2 cycle, however, is still pretty light (60 lbs?) and will give you the max appropriate horsepower. Someone figured 8 HP was equivilent to a 160% Genoa.

The Nissan / Yamaha / Merc 5 HP four cycle is still small enough to fit in the engine well. Hondas and other four cycle engines over 4 HP will not fit without a lot of modification to the boat. And, they weigh a ton.

[Ken]

I purchased a Nissan 9.8 HP two stroke last year. This engine fits nicely in the lazerette and is light enough to lift and store in the lazerette also. A good price and plenty of power too. Always starts on the first or second pull which is a far cry from my old Evinrude 9.9 which was very unreliable.

[French]

I have a 7 hp Merc on my Ariel it just fits. Maybe a 2 stoke...? oil has to be mixed with the gas. I can lift it out without to much trouble and store it in the compartment when not in use. Runs well, power seem enough, backing up is not the best, but saved me when I gunned it from going into the back of another boat, when I misjudged a solo docking effort against the tide. I have to work on the backing up part. Drifts/pulls to one side more.

I picked up a big paddle as a back for emergency, do not know if it will help , and hope not to find out :-)

[commanderpete]

I've got a Yamaha 8hp two stroke ("The one-pull wonder") Never use the electric start.

To compensate for "prop walk" to port while backing I just swivel the engine to starboard.

I think docking would be real ugly at times if I couldn't swivel the engine.

Seems to me there must be some bad electrical activity going on in or around your boat to eat up an engine that much, even if it didnt have a zinc. Might also want to check the thru hulls

[French]

"swivel the engine to starboard"

Wow, great , I'll have to try that. I do not have much room to move the throdle, but I'll give that a try, maybe even a small amount will help.

[French]

Hmmm, swivel the prop toward starboard or the handle???

inquiring minds...

[Bill]

Try installing the ob with the throttle handle in the vertical position. It will bend back far enough to allow closing the hatch. With the throttle handle out of the way, the engine will swivel from stop to stop. In fact, you can swivel it by just getting a grip on the head of the engine and twisting it left or right. Faster than reaching throught the opening in the lazarette bulkhead and trying to use the handle.

[commanderpete]

I had a Merc outboard on my first Commander quite a few years ago. I remember the throttle arm was a problem. The arm would only go up or forward. There was no room for it to go forward and I couldnt close the hatch. I had to unbolt the arm, stick the arm through the opening from the lazarette to the cockpit, and retighten the arm. Then I could only swivel the engine in one direction. Not so good.

Boats generally back up to port because of the direction the prop turns.

I swivel the engine so the prop is on the starboard side to compensate while backing.

I always got confused as to which way to point the rudder while backing. I finally decided the rudder has little effect anyway since it is in front of the prop of the outboard. I just try to keep the rudder straight. Not so easy because when you start to back up the rudder wants to slam hard over because of the force of the water on it.

[French]

Oh cool!
It is suppose to be in the mid to high 70's here this weekend. I will be able to do a backing test, as I head to try out my new headsail. 1st sail of the season!

[French]

Well I went down to the boat last night to check things out.
I have a 6hp Merc Twin. The handle will not mount vertical and when placed horz. the lazarette have been slot-cut so it would fit. Perhaps some of the other outboards have a different handle position. I was told by an old sailor at one time , when I first got the boat, I could make do with a smaller HP motor about 3-4 hp. I think that would be way under powered. I guess it is time to do some research into outboard designs and power. The Nissan/Yammha 5 hp sounds interesting.
Any other suggestions?

My Merc runs well, and does fit,... however I would like something that will give me more manevirablity, even a little lighter would be nice.

[Bill]

Check out the boats at the Hoppe gathering on April 13. Most have ob's with control handles that swivel to the vertical. An 8hp Yamaha/Nissan/Merc 2-cycle should be a good choice. I have a 5hp Merc (very light) and it works fine in most conditions on the SF Bay. Fighting an ebb at the GG, however, is another matter:p The cost difference, as I recall, is about 1/3 less compared with the the 8hp 2-cycle.

[commanderpete]

French

If your Merc is worth keeping, you can get a remote outboard engine control box. The throttle arm is removed and cables run to the shift and throttle mechanism on the outboard. The box is mounted in the cockpit.

You can see an example of one type of box on eBay Motors Item # 1815838190.

I have a Yamaha brand for my outboard.

[French]

Hmm thats a cool idea, I'll take a look

thx

[Mike Goodwin]

You guys running the 4 stroke outboards, have you replaced the prop or you still using the one that came with it ?
You should be using one with less pitch 7" , the one supplied is 8" , makes a big differance , lets you get up to RPM faster and less slip . 8" pitch is for planing dinghies and jon boats , some mechanics even suggest 6" or 6.5" pitch .
A prop shop can re-pitch it for you for a few bucks ( cheaper than a new prop ).

Mike G

[Theis]

Returning to the original issue of lower unit corrosion, I just found out yesterday that lower unit corrosion, and more importantly prop corrosion are almost inevitable, even in fresh water, and even with the zinc scrifical corrosion plate.

It even happens with stainless steel props, unless they have a high concentration of nickel.

The only way I was told to resist corrosion is to keep the prop/lower unit painted. In the case of the prop, the paint comes off the edges, the electrolysis starts and is seen even in the center of the blades where the paint is bubbling/blisering off.

Ah, the elements have a way to beat the best that man can muster

[Mike Goodwin]

We picked up a matched pair of new Nissan 6hp 4 strokes for Ariel #45 and Commander #105 .
Will run them side by side with various props to determine best pitch to push boat .
55lbs of sweet quiet nearly clean propulsion.

[D. Fox]

I'll be very interested in the outcome. I have the 5hp Nissan 4 stroke (love it - as you said, clean and quiet) and still have the original prop. Thanks,

Dan

[Mike Goodwin]

Mercury ,Nissan & Tohatsu ( same motor, all made by Tohatsu ) recommend a 8x7 prop on the 6 ,5 & 4hp for displacement hulls ( the 4 comes with it ) the 6 & 5 come with a 'square prop' 8x8 ( actually 7.9x7.9 ).
My mechanic , from his experience , say to skip the 7 and drop to a 6 or 6.5 pitch . He's a licensed Nissan service center and seems to know what's up .
I'm going to buy a 8x7 try it and log with the GPS what it does then have it re-pitched to 8x6 and see what that does .
The following is over-simplified and not scientific;
at 4000 rpm the 8x8 prop is trying to go somewhere between 20 and 30 knots . Not going to happen on an Ariel .
At 4000 rpm the 8x6 prop is trying to go somewhere between 12 and 20 knots .
now you have slip and losses that can be 50% which brings you down to 6knots which is close to hull speed .
All that wasted revolutions on the 8x8 is like spinning the tires on a car , not getting you anywhere fast , the 8x6 is like switching to a fatter tire with more tread ,or a lower gear, that delivers all the bite to the road and propels you forward & stops you when you engage reverse.
The only drawback about downpitching ;
If you use the same motor on a dink or skiff that planes , it wont go as fast because you have shifted to a lower gear .
It only takes 5 minutes to switch props so buy a spare and have it pitched lower .

Mike G

[scottwilliams]

I PURCHASED THIS MOTOR AND AM CURRENTLY USING IT ON MY SAN JAUN 21 WHICH I HAVE RECENTLY RESTORED - IS THIS ENOUGH MOTOR FOR THE ARIEL . ? THANKS- SCOTT

[commanderpete]

This calculator says that you need 7.8 h.p. to push the boat at hull speed.

http://www.geocities.com/jvandrey/flicka_calculator.html

But, hell, a Honda 4 stroke is a nice engine. Give it a whirl. It will get you in and out.

But, you won't make much progress against a chop or strong current.

I get currents of about 2.5 knots. Can be slow going, even with an 8 h.p.

If you get a new engine, be sure to get a long shaft.

[D. Fox]

I use a 5hp Nissan longshaft on my Bristol 27. I've been very happy with it. Its given me good power motoring into 20kt headwinds. The only time I found it lacking was motoring straight into steady 35kt winds, gusting to 45kts, with 2-3 ft waves. Couldn't get more than a couple kts in those conditions. My boat displaces 6600#, and I get 5 kts at 1/2 power in calm conditions. I went with the smaller motor to keep weight down in the stern - B27s (and Ariels I think) tend to squat with too much weight back there. There was a thread on this a couple months ago you may want to look at. Suggest you mount the motor and try it out for the remainder of the season and see if it meets your needs.

Dan

[MarkCreeker]

I am the new owner of a Commander, hull 202. She's complete except for the motor, and I will be purchasing an outboard shortly. I've read the advice posted on this board regarding outboards, and I still have some questions. I'm hoping that someone out there is still willing to flog this possibly dead horse.

1. 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke. Outside of California we still have a choice. I've heard that the newest 2-strokes are no less environmentally friendly than 4-strokes. I'd prefer to get the 2-stroke because of size and weight issues, as well as ease of maintenance. A 6 hp 4-stroke looks like the biggest that would fit in the well, and weighs about 55 lb. An 8 or 9.8 hp 2-stroke looks a little bigger, and weighs 60 lb.

2. Power/hp minimum. There seems to be general consensus that 6 hp is adequate to push an Ariel/Commander. I will be sailing in the Long Island Sound, and there's not a lot of chop. I'm more concerned with flukey winds and getting myself back home, and I think I'd be safe with 6 hp.

3. Is more better? My question now is whether it's worth investing a few more dollars for more power. Actually, the basic 8 hp 2-stroke costs the same or less than the 6 hp 4-stroke. So, given almost equal weight and cost, is there a compelling argument for the 6 hp 4 stroke vs the 8 hp 2 stroke? Hell, for that matter, why not the 9.8 hp (except for the $'s!)?

4. 12V Charging System. Is this feature worth the extra $'s?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Mark

[Bill]

Check the second or third post in the "Threads of Note" post at the top of the Tech forum. It deals with hp computations for the Ariel/Commander hull. An 8hp 2-cycle appears about ideal from a weaght to hp and hp to hull speed solution.

[Mike Goodwin]

I have both , a Nissan 6hp 4 stroke , a Johnson 5hp 2 stroke , and a Cruise & Carry 2 stroke .
The Nissan is brand new , the Johnson 3 years old and the C&C is ancient.
The 2 stroke will use twice as much gas or more and at low RPM's discharge unburned oil into the sea , 2 stroke fact of life . It is more powerful and louder for the same HP although lighter , nuther 2 stroke fact of life .
No mixing gas and oil for the 4 stroke , so if you top off a tank , you can forget the higher math and if you get it wrong on a 2 stroke , you foul the plug or burn the rings out . They are not inviornmentally friendly untill you get to the higher HP models with 'oil injection' .
All 2 strokes smell , I dont notice my Nissan .
Also I can talk to someone on the bow with the Nissan running hard , can't even hear myself with the Johnson .
I get 5knots in flat calm water with the wrong prop on the Nissan 6hp ( new prop will be here Friday ).
Which ever you get will need a 'power' prop of about 6" pitch , 9x9 is standard and wont give full power or rpm's , unless you buy a designated 'saildrive' , 'sailmaster' ,etc. which will have the right prop .
Yes to the alternator option , it aint much but will light the running lights or top off a battery that is low ( not enough for Airing's microwave ) .
Which do I prefer?
I like both , my wife only likes the Nissan and has very ugly things to say about the Cruise and Carry ( poor thing only weighs 12lbs and is asked to push over 5000lbs of boat).

[commanderpete]

The advantages of a 4 stroke are said to be:

better fuel economy,
quieter running,
no oil mixing.

But, I usually don't use more than 15 gallons of gas a season.
I don't run the engine enough for those considerations to really matter to me.

I wish everyone had a 4 stroke, since the cumulative effect of all that fuel dumped in the water is disturbing. But, I'm ashamed to say, the environmental considerations would not tilt the decision for me.

As a practical matter, you've already heard that some engines will not fit in the motor well.

Equally important is the configuration of the throttle arm. If the throttle arm doesn't fit, you can't close the hatch cover. Also, you may not be able to swivel the engine 180 degrees. Generally, a throttle arm that tilts backwards will work better than one that tilts forward.

Best advice is to buy the outboard from a dealer with a good return policy. The sucker has got to fit.

[commanderpete]

As far as the alternator goes, I would get it. Not just to charge the battery, but as a safety feature.

If your battery dies when you're out there at night, you have no running lights.

Just fire up the engine and you have power again.

Saved my cookies more than once.

[Mike Goodwin]

The Nissan 6 HP 4 stroke fits the well , can turn 180 degrees , has a vertical pull start feature ,throttle arm folds back , weighs 55lbs. , was under $1500 by a good bit , it is the same as the Mercury or Tohatsu so you can use their service centers too , 3 year warrenty , runs about 3 hrs on a gallon of gas or 10 hrs per tank .
I found itto be the biggest, HP , that will fit in 4 stroke , all the others , 9.9 ,9.8 ,Honda , Merc., Nissan , Yamaha etc., have a cowl fairing that hits the well .
That extra 30% HP is payed for in 150% weight increase too , average 9.9 weighs 130lbs if it is a 4 stroke .

[MarkCreeker]

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments. I've decided to go with a 2-stroke 8hp Nissan outboard, with the 12v charging option. At 60lbs, even my tired back should hold up to its weight. I'll let you know how it works out.

Thanks again!

BTW, the 2-stroke is smaller than the 4-stroke, and should fit in the well without a problem. I'll confirm that in a couple weeks, or let you ridicule me for not following commanderpete's advice.

[Mike Goodwin]

The 2 stroke 8hp fits fine , borrowed one to move #45 when I 1st got her . It's not that much smaller .

[MarkCreeker]

Thanks Mike - that's one less thing to worry about. Now, for the #!%@ CDI roller furling...

[Bill]

The March edition of Practical Sailor has a run down on all the 4-stroke outboards.

". . . the price of small 4-strokes has dropped within reasonable range of same-power 2-strokes. (The same is not yet true of the bigger four-strokes, unfortunately.) The bad news is that weight remains a major issue with the small 4-stroke outboard. Some are so heavy they don't qualify as "portable" engines, in our view."

For example, the 6-hp Suzuki, Tohatsu, Nissan and Mercury all weigh 55 lbs. with a 15" shaft, a bit more with a 20" shaft. The 6-hp Johnson is about 13 lbs. heavier at 68 lbs, but the Yamaha is really heavy at 83 lbs! [As an 8, the Yamaha is one of the lightest engines along with the Johnson 8.]

[French]

greetings
To raise a old topic...

I got what I thought was a good deal on a 4 stroke , 5 hp Honda...until I remembered this old post...how big of a modification is needed to make this work???

I have a 6hp Mercury in there now. The only thing I have to do is take the trottle handle off before putting it in or take it out of the well. it does not fold.

anyone out using a honda 5hp - 4 stroke?





Originally posted by Bill
Fox makes good sense. Keep it light at the stern of the Ariel/Commander. It also makes it easier to R & R the engine. Less chance of doing damage to yourself:p

MaiKa'i runs a 5 HP Merc two stroke. Plenty of power for most conditions. An 8 HP Nissan / Yamaha 2 cycle, however, is still pretty light (60 lbs?) and will give you the max appropriate horsepower. Someone figured 8 HP was equivilent to a 160% Genoa.

The Nissan / Yamaha / Merc 5 HP four cycle is still small enough to fit in the engine well. Hondas and other four cycle engines over 4 HP will not fit without a lot of modification to the boat. And, they weigh a ton.

[Theis]

Did you know that French Toast is named after a guy named French? Any relation?

[ebb]

I heard a frewnch kiss was named after a belgian waffle.

[Bill]

Ok, that's enough you guys . . .

[French]

well, not really... he is from the French cuff French's where as I am from the French tickler and mustard Frenchs. People often get us bewildered and ask that. I am however related to the French kiss Frenchs. That was a false tale about the waffle, a jelous female ...friend, she spread that lie because she could not have the recipe...anyway...However on the otherhand...as we all have to come from someone in the beginning , and from one come many , and many lead back to one... yes We are related...



Originally posted by Theis
Did you know that French Toast is named after a guy named French? Any relation?

[French]

Hmmmmmm. guess I 'll have to do this myself...

Hello there French, after sorting through all the replies to your quandry, I have perhaps some answers to clear the haze about the Honda fitting your Ariel.

I have done some reserch whihc may help...

1st off the statement that stired the confussion " above a 4 stroke Honda will not fit" was made in error. Honda does not make a 4 stroke, 4 hp outboard! They made a 5 hp, the next down is a 2 hp . THerefore I conclude that the statement was suppose to be perhaps anything above a 5hp Honda will need modications to the boat.

2nd. I had forgotten that 2 yrs ago at the sail expo I was looking at some honda 4 strokes, and the dealer said, this will work for you with your Ariel. As it turned out he owns a Ariel.

3rd. The overall size of a Honda 5hp four stroke is smaller than a Mercury 6 hp twin 2-stroke. except for the width which is 2.5 inches wider. Therefore the overall smaller Honda 5hp will replace your Mercury 6hp with no problem.

Once you get your new motor in, give us a post on how it went, I'm sure inquireing minds will want to know.

Hope that helps
best wishes
your cousin French of the toast family linage

Oh and btw, French onion soup is also invented on my side of the family:)

[Theis]

Heh, the Theis Boot was invented by my forebears. How about that!

[Bill]

Things are getting close to removal . .:)

[French]

Honda 5 hp 4 stroke :

Good fit, good power/push/drive

no Smoke ...sweet!!!

[French]

The Great Stroke Debate
by Tom Wood
Even though we are sailors, outboard engines are often an
integral part of the way we use our boats. SailNet's systems
maven discusses the pros and cons of a two and a four-stroke.

http://www.sailnet.com/view.cfm?page=10833

[Scott Galloway]

My Honda 7.5 four stroke motor on my 1965 Ariel #330 gasped its absolute last a week ago. It failed in the harbor channel as I was raising the main while single-handing.

I have researched the outboard motor threads on this forum and have gleaned much valuable information. It appears from what most people say that a 6 hp motor will provide adequate power for an Ariel. I hit the OB motor stores on-line and here in town, and I am about to buy a new motor.

Specific comments, both to the positive and negative, on the two motors listed below will be appreciated. I am interested in how these motors specifically fit into the well and in the lazarette locker. Does the hatch close? Will the motor lie flat in the locker? How is the power for open-ocean sailing?

Although here in the winter when the sand bar builds in the harbor entrance, one must occasionally punch through the white water of broken waves and fight the resulting current to go to sea, we do not generally have to deal with current. It is also necessary on rare occasions to surf into the harbor channel on either the white stuff or an unbroken face. I did that last November in the dark, and hit a piece of the sandbar in the process as a breaking wave lifted my stern and drove my bow down. Usually, however, the biggest challenge to the motor is motoring upwind into ocean swells.

1. The Nissan 6 hp four stroke

The Nissan 6 appears to fit the well based on my measurements, and it's much less expensive that the Yamaha 6 hp at less that 1.2K. I have read the posts on prop pitch, and Mike Goodwin's endorsement, in which he statedin part, "The Nissan 6 HP 4 stroke fits the well, can turn 180 degrees, has a vertical pull start feature, throttle arm folds back, and weighs 55 lbs."

The dealer tells me that you can't flush the motor unless you remove it and place it into a barrel of fresh water. Is that true?

2. The Yamaha 6 hp Four Stroke:

Two cylinders, the simple fresh water flushing feature, and the alternator make the Yamaha 6 hp four stroke motor attractive, but the configuration of the cavitation plates appear to prevent it from fitting into the well. A dealer has suggested grinding off most of the upper cavitation plate: Not my idea of a good thing to do to a new motor.

At 83 pounds, this motor is a bit hefty for my tastes, and with the long control handle, it appears that a remote will be necessary if the motor is to fit into the lazarette locker, bringing the price up to around 2K plus tax.

The top rear portion of my well has been modified to accommodate the long, low Honda 7.5 motor housing, but the bottom of my well is still in the original configuration. I am not interested in making further well modifications to accommodate an engine.

Has anyone actually installed the Yamaha 6 hp four-stroke motor in an Ariel or Commander without modifying the OB well?

French makes the Honda 5 hp also seem attractive. I have also looked at Johnsons and Mercurys, but I am most interested in the above two motors.

[Bill]

From the Practical Sailor artical, it appears the Yamaha 6 & 8 share the same block. If you decide on it, I'g go for the greater hp.

The other engine is made by Tohatsu and is badged as Merc's and Nissan's as well. I really think the Tohatsu 6hp is a good choice for our boats (however it's badged), unless you have some really wilde tides to fight. And at 55lbs, it's relatively easy to handle. Down side may be the single cylinder. I know a single cylinder makes for a lot of vibration in the 2-cycles, but I'm not sure about the 4-cycles.

As for flushing, there is a removable bolt the hole of which takes a hose fitting. Got one on my Merc. You could probably use the Merc accessory in any of the engines. Pain to R&R after every sail, but is worth it for safety reasons. Besides, I don't have room for an engine bucket :)

[Scott Galloway]

The Yamaha 6hp and 8 hp four stroke motors do utilize the same block. Neither motor appears to fit the well on an Ariel due to the rather large forward facing cavitation plate, although I would be interested in knowing if anyone has actually tried to insert a Yamaha 6 or 8 in an unmodified Ariel OB well.

I am currently leaning toward a Nissan 6 hp four stroke motor. I would still be interested in hearing from others who have used this motor (or a Mercury 6 or Tohatsu 6) about power, prop pitch, and fit in the well in Ariels or Commanders.

Regarding the flushing mechanism. The engine must be flushed while running. The flushing attachment costs $18.00 from Nissan, but is not recommended by the dealer with whom I have been working. He tells me that Nissan prefers that the motor be flushed by running it in a tub of fresh water.

The Nissan also lacks an alternator, and it is a single cylinder engine, but its light weight at 55 lbs, reasonable price tag and most of all, the fact that it fits into the well and into the lazarette locker are big pluses for this engine. My remaining question is:

Does anyone out there have information to share about the fit and actual performance of this engine in an Ariel or Commander that has not already been posted on this forum?

[Mike Goodwin]

Robert leMasters, Commander#115,and I both have the Nissan 6hp 4 stroke .
I have an alternator , vertical pull start cord and the power prop option .I strongly reccomend all these options.
The motor fits the well with room to spare .
According to my GPS , I see 6 knots easy .
I have the flushing plug option too.
I never leave the motor in the well and it fits nicely laying inside the lazzarette, along with 2 gas tanks .
My wife can install the motor in the well and she is only 112 lbs.
The motor is very quiet and there is no vibration like you would exspect from a single cylinder .

[Theis]

Did I hear you right that the Nissan 6hp is only one cylinder? I had thought almost all the 4 cycle engines )other than the one and two HP versions) were two cylinder units

[Scott Galloway]

Mike and Theis,

Thanks for the reply Mike. I have read your previous posts in this forum related to prop pitch. They were very helpful and clued me into the issue of prop pitch and moving heavy objects through the water. I am inclined to purchase a prop with a 7" pitch, since Nissan offers only 7", 8" or 9" pitch options.

I am delighted to know that an alternator option is available on the Nissan 6 hp. I will include that option in the package that I obtain.

I am curious to know how you go about flushing the motor with the flushing plug. Do you remove the motor from your boat prior to flushing it, or can you perform that operation with the bottom part of the motor still in the well, but out of the water? I am using a Garhauer lifting davit to raise and lower the motor due to a back-related lifting limitation.

I am also very curious about the vertical pull start cord feature. The horizontal pull cord on my old Honda 7.5 hp motor ran perilously close to the gasket on the hatch, and probably led to the demise of that gasket, to say nothing of the knuckle wounds on my right hand. Does the position of the Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor in the well preclude use of the horizontal pull start cord, or do you feel that the vertical pull cord is merely a nice option? Do you have the option of using either vertical or horizontal cords on your motor or are you limited to only a vertical pull?

That's right Theis. The Nissan 6hp four-stroke motor is one cylinder. I assume that is why at 55 lbs it is much lighter than the 6 hp Yamaha, which weighs in at 83lbs. The very good news from Mike's post is that an alternator is available on this engine. This is news to me even though I have spoken to two dealers. And of course the fact that the thing fits in the well is a minor miracle. After lugging around my old Heavy Honda 7.5 the 55 lb Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor seems like a very nice solution.

[Theis]

That is great about the weight. Makes me envious.

My Yamaha has a vertical pull feature, and it helps a great deal. However a word of caution. It does wear the pull cord, and I have gone through a couple of them (but then I have had some starting problems from time to time). You might want to carry a spare.

[Mike Goodwin]

I carry several square 5 gal. buckets(kitty litter) , set the motor in the bucket and flush .

The horizontal pull start worked , but was awkward to get to , the vertical pull is a piece of cake .
It is an elbow attachment on the front of the engine and is not a quick change , I'd guess 5 minutes and tools .
I like this start device because I can just reach back and give it a yank while still seeing all around me .I found the tiller in the way at times when using the horizontal pull through the little hatch at the back of the cockpit .

Another nice feature , is you can turn the motor through close to 180 degrees which is a real help as these boats dont back worth a hoot .In fact I tie the rudder off amidships when backing and just steer with the motor .
If you are wondering why these and several other designs dont back well ; It is the keel , a keel that has little drag ( the draft is nearly as deep at the front or the back of the keel ) resists turning when going astern , the benefit is shallow draft.
If the keel follow the angle of the stem all the way to the heel of the rudder she would have more draft and back beautifully .
The other benefit of our keel is when you haul out, you can set her on the ground and the water line is near horizontal still .

I like the Honda and the Yamaha , but they failed too many of my check list , namely weight , fit the boat and price to a small degree .

I found the Nissan, (Mercury, Tohatsu)to be the best solution for my needs .
If I were to get a 2 stroke , I was going with the 8hp.

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

Thanks for all of the advice on the Nissan 6 hp Four Stroke motor Mike. I think I will wander down to the motor shop and buy me a Nissan. I'm ready to feel salt water spray in my face once again. I am not sure about the kitty litter though.

[Theis]

On the backing feature, the Yamaha does back very well (although the directionality can be difficult). The difference is the Yamaha prop. I have had the OMCs, McCulloughs and others and they are terrible with regard to power in reverse.

The reason for the limited power in reverse is that the exhaust feeds towards the back with a conventional prop, so that, in reverse, the prop cavitates because of the exhaust. The Yamaha prop (and it may be available with other motors) reverses the outlet for the exhaust, and the prop gets a tremendous bite. You might look into the Yamaha type prop for your motor. They might be available.

[Hull376]

Mike,

Is the Nissan 6hp 4 stroke available with remote control? Or if not, can you close the lazarette with the handle in the upright position?

[Mike Goodwin]

I think you can get remote control and yes the handle folds all the way back along side the cover.

Theis,
The Nissan backs well , the Ariel doesn't .

[Bill]

Kent, don't forget the upper exhaust port when considering closing the hatch. See earlier ob discussion and photos. You need a fix (maybe a fitting with hose attached) to "pipe" the exhaust away. As I recall, several skippers are "thinking" about this.

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

My local dealer (a marine yard) isn't sure that an alternator comes with the Nissan 6 hp four-stroke, and the Nissan Marine web page:
http://www.nissanmarine.com/products/6_4_specs.html

implies that it doesn't, because the 12V charging system space on the specification table on that page is left blank. I know that you have an alternator, so it would be interesting to know what year your motor was manufactured. How many amps does the alternator put out? The two-cylinder Yamaha 6 four-stroke puts out 6 amps.

And finally, does the issue Bill raised about the "upper exhaust port" apply to the Nissan 6hp four stroke? Does your motor choke if run in the lazarette with the top hatch closed?

[Mike Goodwin]

Mine is a 2002 , charging option was dealer installed factory supplied , I just checked the website and it is there 5a lighting/charging option .Its between weight and RPM range , not in the bullets .

http://www.nissanmarine.com/products/6_4_specs.html

I've run with the hatch down , but mostly keep it clipped to the backstay for quicker access . When underway , I keep the hatch above the tiller off and stowed below , also my motor well is rarely submerged .
I never see or smell the exhaust when under way.

[Hull376]

OOOh yea. The upper port exhaust issue. Also, I guess over the years, I've forgotten that outboards have a reverse gear. I began to think many years ago that the only way to move an Ariel backwards was to push it back from the dock and then watch which way the stern was going to go. Then hope you got enough space to gun the motor forward before the aft end hit something!

[Mike Goodwin]

The buckets are empty guys, of kitty litter anyway. They stow better than the round ones and fit right through the hatches in the seats . I have an endless supply of Fresh Step 33lb litter buckets, from my wife's co-worker.
They are also a legal marine head, if you have the tight fitting lid !

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Mike,

I see the "lighting" option on the Nissan web page now.

"Optional: 12V 60W 5A"

So I guess that about wraps it up. I am looking forward to an engine that will swivel in place for backing purposes, although I had some success backing out of the slip with my former motor provided that no current was running. The key was backing slowly.

I modified the vertical hatch board behind my tiller to increase ventilation in the lazarette locker both at the dock and underway. A photo is attached. Incidentally, the tiller tamer fairleads and cleats were installed on the boat when I bought it, but the old tiller tamer was long gone. I bought and installed a new one shown in the photo. I discovered that although the device was functional, it was fragile in the configuration shown due to the extreme angle of the lines running from the device to the first fairlead. I could not see an easy way of changing this without drilling a bunch of new holes. I now use a knotted bungee cord run between the two cockpit-side mooring cleats and wrapped around the tiller, and that works just fine. I have a pile of stuff in a sack that someday I intend to use to make my own more durable device for securing the tiller.

Now about this kitty litter thing: The use of expired kitty litter containers is an interesting idea to aid in flushing the motor, but for crewed sailing I prefer a conventional porta-potti to a litter box. I can just imagine the faces on my crew members were I to pull a "Fresh Step" 33lb litter bucket from the locker in answer to the question, "Where is the head?"

Very amusing though.

[Mike Goodwin]

Scott,

I think you will like the 6hp with the options we have discussed ; long shaft, vertical start,alternator and the lower pitch prop . I am taking my stock prop and have pitched down even lower than the 7" , my dealer/mechanic says a 6" is even better . That way , my 7" becomes the spare and it's good to carry a spare .

[Theis]

One point about generating capacity. Some outboards (like the Yamaha) will generate almost the maximum amount at low throttle. Others generate electricty on a more linear basis relative to the RPM (like at least older OMC's). Something you might ask about.

The April 15 issue of Practical Sailor (and a recent prior issue) has a discussion about props on small outboards. For your convenience, I have entered the part from this issue:

PROPER OUTBOARD PROPPING

[Ed}We thought we'd run this valuable letter to follow up our recent discussion of outboard engine power in this column. The issue of prop size and pitch often plays second fiddle to other concerns, but it's central and we thank Mr. Below for covering it for us.

This is in response to Mr. Patrick Green's question about outboard power for a Pearson 26 [PS Advisor, February 15].

[Letter] I owned a 1975 P-26 for nearly 20 years (traded up to a 10-M in '99), cruising Long Island Sound and out to Nantucket. I acquired a '76 9.9-hp Johnson, 20" shaft with electric start, which I used for most of those years. I still own this engine.

The standard propellor for the Johnson was a 91/2" diameter by 10" pitch. This propellor did not allow the engine to reach its intended operating rpm, and as a result the engine fouled spark plugs and would not keep the battery charged. I quickly changed to the optional 10" x 5" "barge" propellor offered by OMC. This low-pitch propellor made all the difference. Plug fouling stopped, and the higher operating rpm allowed the alternator to keep the battery fully charged.

In 1995, I succumbed to the desire to own a more environmentally friendly four-stroke and purchased n 8-hp Honda manual start, 20" shaft. The stock Honda prop was 9" x 10", I believe, and did not allow the engine to reach its recommended operating rpm.

I switched to a 8 3/4" x 7" Michigan prop. This was a perfect match for the P-26. The engine ran great, and the 4 amp alternator was able to keep the battery charged. The Honda burned about half the fuel (and no oil), compared to the old Johnson.

My experience says that many people overlook the necessity for matching the propellor to their boat. It is absolutely crucial to allow engines, expecially older two-stro9ke outboards, to be able to reach their recommended maximum power at full throttle. This also holds true for mondern, high-rpm inboard diesels.

Dexter Below
Wilton, CT.

[Scott Galloway]

The pitch information confirms Mike's earlier post relating to prop pitch.

So far one of my potential vendors insists on delivering the motor with a 7.8" X 8" prop, and then proposes to sell me a second prop with a 7.8 X 7" prop for $59.00. The other doesn't know anything about prop options but has a call into the factory. It would seem rather odd if one couldn't order the prop one wants installed on the motor...and Nissan doesn't seem to sell a prop with a 6" pitch.

The charging system (I am told that it's actually a rectifier) on the Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor seems to come with a $129 price tag, and as a kit that must be installed locally (dealer's labor rate is $85 per hour)... Installation requires removal of the flywheel.

Neither of my two Nissan vendors seems to have heard of the vertical pull-start feature. I am awaiting their further research on this feature.

Anyone know a good Nissan vendor in the S.F. Bay area?

[Theis]

The Yamaha also has a rectifier generator. If Nissan is like the Yamaha, make sure to disconnect it inside if you are using it without a battery - or you will burn up the rectifier. There should be a couple quick disconnects inside the motor leading to the generator once it is installed.

The rectifier for the Yamaha was also a dealer installed option. Most dealers either are incompetent or don't care. Look until you find one that knows what an outboard looks like. If they ask you if what they are pointing to is an outboard, it is probably a good sign to move on.

As for the prop, I experienced the same thing. Buy what is offered and the new prop will cost more was the sales pitch. However, sales are not booming right now, and you should be able to work a deal (as I did). Try going outside the immediate Bay Area. (I got my deal going two hours out) = They threw in the special prop, and a gas can (not the standard one).

What I didn't know when I bought the Yamaha is there is a separate catalog for extra accessories. You might ask for that, if you don't already have one, and if they have such an animal.

Good luck. What a delight it must be for those dealers to make money selling a product you don't know the first thing about - that is how I size up the Yamaha selling dealers as a group.

[Mike Goodwin]

Scott,
Look for a Nissan official repair shop and buy it from them. That is where I was told of all the options and paid much less than you are being quoted . I found a one man operation and am glad I did .
I paid $50 for the prop.
$178 for the alternator, installed .
Vertical start option was $75 , part #369B059110 & #3b2059120.

If they don't know of these options , then I would be real careful about dealing with them.

It comes with the stock prop , it is part of the package and you need a spare anyway .

[Mike Goodwin]

I found 9 sales/service centers within 60 mile radius of 94102 zip code .

http://www.nissanmarine.com/search/index.html

Go here , put in your zip and how far you will travel , then start calling .

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

I played the zip code game on the http://www.nissanmarine.com/search/index.html website. I found a geographically proximate dealer. I am also working with an on-line vendor who specializes only on Nissan motors, but as I was attempting to relate in my earlier post, neither vendor seems to be aware of the vertical pull-start feature. The on-line vendor will not ship a Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor with a 7" pitch prop. They tell me that they must ship me the 8" pitch prop and then bill me for an additional 7" prop at $59. The geographically proximate dealer has not yet told me that they can provide me with a motor with an alternator, rectifier, or whatever, nor whether they can provide me with an engine with a 7" pitch prop.

Furthermore, since they do not have a Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor in stock, the geographically proximate dealer will bill me for shipping costs. They do have other Nissan's in stock, but not the 6 hp long shaft.

So I figured that perhaps someone in the S.F. Bay area might have specific experience with an alternative vendor from whom they might have purchased a similar engine. Otherwise, I will probably select geographically proximate dealer.

[Mike Goodwin]

Nissan ships with the 8" prop and that is what you get even if you order the 7" , you or the dealer has to install it .

Check for all the dealers within 100 mile radius and call them all, or as far as you are willing to drive!

If they combine the order (2 or more motors) there is no shipping costs according to my dealer.

As I said before , " if they are not aware of the options , they are probably not much of a dealer/service center" and don't talk to sales-persons , talk to the shop foreman. They are in sales because all they can do is BS in most cases.
The guy I got mine from answers the phone , sells the motors and fixes the motors .

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Mike,

My dealer is a boat yard, and so the folks there are very knowledgeable about most things marine, but apparently they don't sell too many Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motors. I haven't had a call back from them since I asked for info on the charging, vertical pull cord, and prop options last Thursday.

I like to deal locally when possible, but I may have to look around a bit, or order on-line. A friend of mine had a good experience with http://www.nissan-outboards.com/
when he bought a new Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor last fall.

Now the idea of ordering two Nissans at once to save shipping costs is intriguing. All I need now is two motor wells for my new twin 6 hp Nissan motor array.

[Theis]

That's an interesting way to get a two cylinder power plant.

[ebb]

mind if I ask you guys something?...
One time I was in the marine convenience stow, I bought for the new power plant: the 8/4 Yamaha hi-thrust electric this and that, I bought a boxed and blisterpacked convenience strap made for outboards to lift the bloody thing.

When I tried to get it on the motor I found that the wires wandering around the ob shaft and case wouldn't allow the sewn together web harness to be slipped on as intended.

Of course we lashed our own strap around it and managed to lift and lower the ob into the newly configured well that had to be made to fit the monster.

The fitting process has taken a while and the strap is permanently married to the unit.

Any suggestions? Can't leave the strap there. right? Gotta get the case off for service. Can't find convenient hook-on points on the ob casting to clip on a temporary type lifting harness. Want to lift the motor straight up and in total control when necessary. 110#!!! Have the feeling I'm really missing something. Could sew together my own custom dohickey later on. Just can't see wrastling with this thing on the water if it doesn't have a perfectly secure harness What to do????

[D. Fox]

Mike, who are you using to service your Nissan in the HR area. Just curious. Thanks,

Dan

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

I used a Garhauer lifting davit on my Honda 7.5 four-stroke motor with an alternator, but a pull start. I left a West Marine issue standard lifting harness in place. My harness is made of one-inch webbing and fits around and under the motor head, rather than clipping onto the motor in any way. The harness attaches only to itself. I slipped the harness around the motor and adjusted it securely with some effort. The harness made removing the motor cover a pain, and more so because I had to augment the harness with a couple of additional lines to make it more secure. These added lines would not have been necessary, if I had not needed to lay the motor down into a horizontal position in the lazarette locker. In moving the motor from a vertical to a horizontal position, there was initially some harness slippage, and that is why I added lines. My motor weighed 70 plus lbs.

I once had to remove the motor from the well to deal with a prop issue at sea. I used the Garhauer davit with a certain degree of risk. I was able to lift it under light wind conditions while my ninety-year-old helmsman steered a true and steady course so that the boom would stay on the lee (starboard) side of the boat while I worked with my trusty davit on the windward (port) side.

A photo of the davit and motor is attached. In the next post you will see the augmented harness on the stored motor.

[Scott Galloway]

Here is the stored Honda 7.5 hp four-stroke motor in the lazarette locker of my Ariel. Since I am now in the process of purchasing a replacement motor, and I will have to modify my harness to accommodate that motor, any comments or criticisms of my methodology will be appreciated.

[Mike Goodwin]

Dan,

I use Lacquer Specialties , John is great to deal with . He is located near Military Circle on Hargrove St.
Phone # 757-461-4568

[ebb]

hello Scott,
I remember mine is a Davis. I just looked it up in the WM catalog, where it is called a Motor Caddy. I remember I tried every which away to get it on. It was sewn where it had to slip under the motor by the clamp. It couldn't come apart to bypass the electric lift wires.

I will swear, therefor that the elaborate description in the catalog does not apply to the Yamaha hi-thrust 8/4.

There's another on the same page that looks just the same. Like you do, you have to leave them on if you unship the motor frequently. Obviously these harnesses should be designed to be put on the motor from the top.

Seems to me there should be a two part model made that has aa adjustable collar with D-rings on it that goes round the neck of the motor. It could be kept in the proper position with velcro dots And two, three or four adjustable straps with hooks on one end and loops on the other for the crane.

Why not invent something that people won't have to get p.o.'d at all the time!

Keep thinking I must have missed something:o

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

The harness on my Honda 7.5 is also a West Marine sold Davis Motor Caddy. You can see my supplemental (white) lines in the above photo of my motor. Also note the royal blue webbing strap on top of the motor, which I tied onto the Davis Motor Caddy's padded black lifting strap. The padded strap was too thick to permit attachment of the carabiner on the lifting davit. The carabiner on my lifting davit attaches to the royal blue strap.

[Tom_Nelson]

Having searched through the previous threads concerning outboards, it seems that there are some with a long shaft and some using the standard more common length shaft. I'd like to know how many of us use a longshaft outboard and how many use a short shaft. Were any modifications to the transom required for the short shaft. My Ariel came with a long shaft British Seagull. It seems to sit too deep and I get an abundance of exhaust in through the OB well. Opinions please.

[Bill]

The exhaust in the ob well is going to be a problem no matter what length shaft:mad:

The long shaft engine has the advantage of putting the prop lower into the water thus reducing the possibility of cavitation (prop spinning out of the water in a rolling sea). The short shaft engine is easier to manage getting into and out of the well.

[Theis]

I put in a Yamaha 8 long shaft. However, I put in a new motor mounting board that raises the motor about an inch or two above the edge of the motor well. As I recall the original motor mount is flush with the well. That being the case, I have a long shaft raised about two inches.

It seems to work fine without cavitation.

[Tom_Nelson]

Bill , Theis

Thanks .

I started with this question because I have been using a British Seagull with a long shaft, but have a 15 hp and a 9.9 hp outboards that I'm interested in using.

The outboard well on Thistle Dew has been modified at some point and I am wondering where the top of the transom was originally, and if cavitation is a problem or just an inconvenience with the short shafts.

Does any one know the average distance from the top of the transon to the water?

Tom

[Bill]

Are you looking for the distance from the deck at the backstay chainplate? A couple of thoughts: The distance will vary depending on the displacement of the individual boat (tools, beer, BBQ's, ets), and how it's lying on its lines (bow or stern heavy). Over the long weekend, I'll try to drop a line and then measure it. In the distant past, the racing fleet floated a straight edge under the bow and stern and dropped a plumb line to measure the distance. We were trying to determine displacement without actually weighing the boats. Maybe I can find those data . . . :confused:

[Theis]

Regarding cavitation, I think it is more than just an annoyance - more likely dangerous. Cavitation generally occurs when you are in significant seas and trying to get somewhere (to beat a storm, darkness, driving through seas, whatever). When it cavitates, you lose power - and under those circumstances, that is when you most need the power.

I also can't believe it is good for the motor to rev up and suddenly have a load put on it, again and again.

On the other hand, if you mostly do fair weather sailing, cavitation may just be an annoyance that occurs when you hit a motorboat wake.

You mentioned the distance from the top of the transom. Did you mean the distance from the top of the motor well mounting board to the water? I'll try to measure that for you this weekend.

[Brendan Watson]

I have used a short(15") shaft, 4hp., in flat water, that pushed my Commander just fine.
I have also been caught in a tide rip where standing waves had
me at a near stand still wth the boat hobby horsing and about two
feet of green water coming over the deck, I fired up my 15hp, long shaft,gained weigh,
and was able to bear off to get out of tha hole. I never cavitated the prop
once. Its safe to say that you will never cavitate with a long shaft (20"), never.
I bet my 4hp. would have burned up and possibly not gotten me through the rip
Tacking as I would have had to do would have lenthened the time I was taking solid water over the bow,
and as I had only the main up with little way would have been dicey at best. Go with a long-shaft if you anticipate
rough water.
Cheers, B.
Commander#215

[Bill]

Here are the results of our scientific investigation into the question of the distance from the top of the transom to the water. Using the University of Chicago School of Economics protocol (first assume a line . . .) the following results were obatined:

29-1/2 inches with me holding the line while sitting on the lazarette hatch.

31-1/2 inches without me on the hatch :) Took a couple of tries to get the lead line to just touch the water.

For purposes of comparison, we also checked the distance from the top of the ob motor well at the forward bulkhead (where you mount the engine):

14-1/2 inches with me there holding the line.

15-1/2 inches without me on the boat.

Protocol includes about 3 gal in the gas tank in the lazarett, ob on the main cabin sole, boom off the boat :rolleyes: no water in the water tank, but anchor rhode and chain in the anchor locker.

Anyone get significantly different measurements?

[Tom_Nelson]

Thanks for all of the information. When I asked for the distance from the transom to the water I meant from where the motor hooks on inside the outboard well.

Thanks again to all.

Tom Nelson

[Theis]

I measured mine this weekend. Leaning over the motor to measure (200#), the top of the mounting board was 13" off the water. Keep in mind that my Ariel has a lot of weight (120# of lead and 70# of sand, plus furnishings (anchors, lines, etc. beer, etc.). My Yamaha is a long shaft

My recollection is that when I rebuilt Solsken, I determined the height of the mounting board (which is 1 1/2" higher than the original board in the well) by taking the lower edge of the boottop as the water line. Then I determined where the waterline on the motor was supposed to be. Working up from there told me how high the top of the mounting bracket/motor board was supposed to be.

[walberts]

Regarding the problem of exhaust smoke from the outboard motor in the lazarette: We wrapped the upper half of the lower unit with a rubber material forming a "skirt" like a mast boot that we then wrapped around the engine well. That kept the smoke out of the lazarette and allowed us to close it up and reduce the engine noise in the process. Before, the engine would choke out from the exhaust fumes if the laz was closed. Now, we can run the engine at crusing speed with the whole thing shut.

The rubber material was left over from a backyard pond project. It can be bought at any pond supply shop. We wrapped it with velcro straps that can be easily removed. The engine is free to turn for manouvering with the "skirt" in place.

[Theis]

My understanding is that there has to has to be a low pressure/no pressure escape path for the exhaust that comes out of the back of the outboard. In other words, if the ports are plugged, you can ruin the motor.

My problem I had earlier is that when I put a rubber "gasket" around the back of the motor and that lead exhaust down to the water out the bottom of the well, there was too much back pressure when the boat was under power and the stern/gasket dipped into the wake.

What I have done now (with my Yamaha) is to build an aluminum/fiberglass "cup" around the exhaust ports at the back of the engine, and connect a neoprene hose to carry those fumes out a small hole in the transom. After almost 900 miles of cruising this year with the motor operating at full blast about half the time (sailing on the big ponds here - Great Lakes - involves a lot of motoring and, when beating in particular, motor sailing. So, I recommend the same resolution to others.

[mrgnstrn]

so you have not had a problem with hot exhaust fumes and the rubber neoprene tubing? is it the same as the black fuel line you can get in (insert mega marine retailer name here)?
and is your tubing hooked up to a thru-hull on the transom? pretty high up, right?
i am starting to consider a similar system.
my current system is a pair of small copper tubings bent to point out one of the ventilation cowlings. not ideal because they sometimes don't reach and sometimes fall out, filling the laz. with fumes.
not ideal at all.

[ebb]

Since we are now in an era of new outboards
and modified ob wells -
perhaps a better determination of optimum prop depth
would be from the waterline on the Ariel
or Commander
to the center of the prop.

Thus, 'the center of my prop is 6" below the designed waterline on my Ariel
and it doesn't cavitate in a chinese chop.'

338's high thrust Yamaha 4/8
is 16" below the D,W,L,... and it doesn't cabitate neither,
but it's not in the water
yet.;)

[Theis]

The neoprene hose came from the auto parts store. The plastic through the transom fitting came from West (Its Mar... something), and the right angle barbed plastic hose fitting came from ACE.

I too was concerned about the heat before I did this. However, none of the components gets hot or even significantly warmer than the engine cover. Heat is not a problem. The only two problems I can envision are corrosion (the gasses are corrosive, I assume), electrolysis (that is why I used plastic), and a buildup of unburnt oil in the exhaust tube and fittings (I'll find out about this one when the boat is pulled for the season.)

Incidentally, I have probably burnt almost 100 gallons of gas this summer, so it has had a suitable trial period.

[mrgnstrn]

the only reason i ask is that my copper tubing gets quite hot after about 15 mintues of run time. This is trroublesome because my copper tubes have to be pointed out of the vent port, and it only does that when i bend it correctly to do so. of course the tubing seems to always need readjusting, and that's when i notice it getting hot. which means that maybe more of my exhaust goes through my "relief ports" than on some other outboards. hard to tell. i will check into the neoprene at NAPA here pretty soon.
-out-

[Theis]

That is interesting. I am assuming that you have the copper nipples going right into the exhaust ports on the back of the motor.

I didn't do it that way. I built a small plenum (about 3"long and the width of the shaft housing) so that the exhaust is perhaps cooled in this plenum. The exhaust exits from this plenum. The inside of the plenum is a formed piece of thin aluminum, shaped so it will stay attached. It is then firmly held in place by the fiberglass which covers it and extends over the shaft housing.

Perhaps this aluminum sheet, in contact with the shaft housing, is providing sufficient heat dissipation so that the exiting exhaust gas is not particularly hot. The total contact area between the lower unit housing and the formed piect of sheet aluminum is perhaps 4 square inches.

Of course, the exiting exhaust might not be as hot as well.

[mrgnstrn]

no fittings, just literally stuck the two copper tubes (small flexible stuff) into the two relief ports. one was 5/16" and the other was like 1/8". and they stay in there by friction, and a little bit of bend in the tubing that i stick in there. sometimes if i wiggle them, they fall out. It is a 9.9 mercury for reference.
the tubes first come out of the motor pointing down, then gooseneck up and over to the stbd fwd corner of the laz, where the vent port is.
and the copper tubing is stiff enough to stay in position, but you can bend it as needed.
but yes, it gets really hot. i would say like as hot a really hot tap water.

[Theis]

Your copper tubing is acting as a heat sink for the exhaust - which is probably about the temperature of hot water (since the engine is water cooled). But that is not "hot" in terms of neoprene of plastic. Being copper, the tubes readily transmit heat to your fingers (or anything else - copper being a super conductor) which is why they feel so warm/hot.

If the tubing were made out of plastic, it would not get as hot to touch.

A couple items to check with your system:

1. With the heat, and the difference in metals, there electrylysis/corrosion. You might be better served using aluminum tubing.

2. Is the seal where the tubing meets the lower unit ssolid. You might want to use some sort of sealant to be sure that no exhaust is leaking around the stuck tubes.

[Bill]

The fuel connectors on the newer low hp outboard engines all appear to have the same fuel connector. It is made from a plastic. The fuel line side of the connector, I learned, is easily broken. :mad:

In the following foto you will find two fuel connectors, the retaining machine screw and a new fuel connector cap for our 5 hp outboard engine. The upper fuel connector is broken -- note the exposed wire protruding from the fuel line connection point. The fuel connector cap was not provided with the engine back in 1995. Interestingly, the cap is only listed in the catalog for four stroke engines, even though it fits the two stroke engines as well.

The long machine screw holding the connector comes up through the ob's turning handle. The receiving threads are placed near the top of the connector making sure it will attach only one way. The fuel connector itself fits so tightly into the engine bay that I went looking for another fastener holding it. Took a mini pry bar to finally pop it out. I

If you have a two cycle ob without the fuel connector cap, I strongly recommend getting one. It only cost $1.75, whereas the connector assembly was $16.34.

The Mercury part numbers are:

Fuel Connector 2215781A5
Cap 878311

[Bill]

The January issue of Trailer Boats included the specifications for all of the current outboard engines. Those of you who want info about the Mercury Verado (16 cylinders and 275 hp), stern drives or Diesels will have to check the magazine. We are just copying listings for the 6 & 8 hp 4-cycle engines:

Engine & HP Weight & List $P

Honda 5 *----- 60-lbs $1700
Honda 8 ----- 77-lbs $2160

Johnson 6 ----- 56-lbs $1996
Johnson 9.9**--- 97-lbs $2350

Mercury 6 ----- 55-lbs $1727
Mercury 8 ----- 84-lbs $1870

Nissan 6 ----- 55-lbs $1514
Nissan 8 ----- 82-lbs $1820

Suzuki 6 ----- 55-lbs $1741
Suzuki 9.9**-- 97-lbs $2595

Tohatsu 6 ----- 55-lbs $1484
Tohatsu 8 ----- 82-lbs $1781

Yamaha 6 ----- 83-lbs $2130
Yamaha 8 ----- 83-lbs $2240

* no 6-hp
** no 8-hp

As noted before, the Mercury, Nissan, Suzuki and Tohatsu all use Tohatsu’s basic engine, although the some companies have brand specific accessories (such as Nissan's vertical pull starting rope setup).

[Robin]

I guess this isn't strictly an ariel related question but I use the dink to get to the ariel so it's a fairly essential piece of equipment for the ariel.
Last fall my outboard died an untimely death (it's a long, sad story), so I need to replace the out board. I had a Johnson 2.3 (dink is 8' skimmer), which was a little underpowered.
It looks like Johnson/Evinrude has gotten out of the small outboard business, I've never heard anything good about Mercurys. There's a Briggs & Stratton 5hp for $700 which I think is a bit too heavy.
I'm thinking of looking for a used one, maybe in the 3-4hp range. Are there any suggestions for what to look for or where?
There's a website www.smalloutboards.com, does anybody know anything about them?

I guess I've been away for a while--the window says I haven't visited since 2003. I don't totally believe that but the time does seem to fly by.

[c_amos]

My understanding is that the Briggs is basically a fresh water motor only, and a throw away. I seem to have read that they vibrate quite a bit but have no first hand experience.

I have a johnson seahorse 2 for my dink, which is the back up the Yamaha 6 that powers my boat. I doubt I would go fast, but it would beat having to row if the motor gave up. I read that are looking for more power.

I might recommend you think of the dink motor in those terms, and even go so far as making the shaft lenght one of your considerations.

I purchased a British seagull as a gift for a friend of mine. I was impressed with it, and they have a wide international following. They are simple as dirt, and easy to fix. If you search on this forum, I think there are about 3 threads that mention them, but two are from someone who did not have much luck with them. That seems to be the minority opinion though.

I came across a link that gave lot's of info on Seagulls, let me go and look for it.

[Robin]

Thanks for the warning on the briggs & stratton.
I've heard both good and bad about the seagulls. They are easy to fix but on the other hand they do need fixing often. I'd be interested in the info you have if you can find it.

[frank durant]

nissan makes a super little 3.5hp thats only 29 or 30 lbs.....good reports too

[c_amos]

Robin,

Here is the link I was talking about that describes the different motors and their spec's;

http://www.bosunsmate.co.uk/british_seagull.htm


Here is the link to the company that has purchased the rights to 'Seagull'

http://www.britishseagull.co.uk/


The first site I listed offers this at the end;



My view of the Seagull
You either loved them or hated them. I have mended countless of these sturdy little machines in my time, and I have grown to hate them in an affectionate sort of way - like you would an alcoholic granny, who is a complete nightmare to live with but indispensable. They were very reliable motors until British Seagull were forced to modernise them in the 1980's by environmental pressures. Twist grip throttles, electronic ignition, cowlings, carb shrouds, better silencing and of all things, a reverse gear! They almost got it right by the time they ceased manufacture in Poole, Dorset, but by then their reputation had suffered, and the Japanese had caught up. The motors coming from Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda were every bit as reliable as the Seagull, and often more so, as well as being quieter, smoother, much more economic to run, and lighter. Unfavourable exchange rates meant that Seagull couldn't even beat the Japs on price, and so it was that eventually the factory shut down, with the rights to the name going to Sheridan Marine in Oxford. You can get in touch with them at http://www.britishseagull.co.uk - they also keep a lot of spares.

The main advantage of the old Seagull over the opposition was the fact they used no ball or needle races in the motor or the gearbox - all the bearings were turned phosphor bronze, which are not bothered by the odd bit of seawater or seaweed finding it's way in. A Seagull could be immersed when not running, to no ill effect, other than perhaps the fuel needing changing and the cylinder draining of water. Sometimes you might even have to clean the points, by simply undoing the big nut on the flywheel and removing the starter cord ring. In extreme cases, you might want to take the flywheel off, but no special tools were needed - the correct method is to turn the motor until the piston reaches bottom dead centre, hold the outboard up by the flywheel, remove the cord ring, replace the nut fully, and get your pal to bash the nut with a big club hammer! Really, this is the only way - use a puller and you risk cracking the flywheel.

No production Seagull was ever fitted with a reed valve that I am aware of, so a small amount of petrol was spat back out with every stroke of the motor - not very environmentally sound. Fuel consumption therefore was relatively poor.

Corrosion was not much of a problem because the alloy used was very resistant to sea water, even though no anodes were fitted. The iron cylinder block would gradually flake with rust in the water passages, but you could scrape these out, anneal the old copper head gasket, and hey presto! - your cooling was restored. The cylinder head on all the "square head" models had the legend "do not remove" cast onto them - this was because as the carbon deposits inside the motor accumulated, the heads ability to seal the compression chamber improved! You could guarantee that when you removed and replaced the head for servicing, a bit of water and compression would leak out for a while.
The water pump was particularly tough, as the rotor did not touch the sides of the pump housing in operation, but the top of the pump chamber could wear out causing water flow reduction. To fix this, mill a few thou off the housing where it mated to the gearbox. The other trick to boosting the water pump pressure is to replace the joint plate - the thick fibre gasket between the water pump and the gearbox. Only in extreme cases did the rotor need replacing, but this could be a problem as they sat on a ferrous steel shaft, which had to be scraped clean of rust before you sweated on the new rotor to avoid it cracking.
The gearbox was a wonder in itself - older models had no oil seals, and relied on the 140 grade oil staying in place purely because it was too viscous to leak. Saying that, you would always get a bit of oil collecting under the motor, as many irritated owners of cars with carpeted boots - trunks to you Yanks! - will testify. Seagull's own Makers Method bulletin #13 states "some oil must be able to pass through the bearings, and a little leakage from them is quite normal". Greenpeace loved this....
The Seagull's main attribute was the way it reliably delivered power - no high speed propellers for these beasts, but a high ratio gearbox transforming the miserable power output into very usable grunt. The Century Plus models had a huge 5 bladed fine pitched fan, as they called it, which would turn a meagre 4hp into enough thrust to shove along a 20 foot sailboat with ease. The most powerful Seagull ever made was the Kingfisher which appeared in the '80s - this was equivalent to an 8hp conventional motor, suitable for displacement hulls only.

The 2 worst faults of the older motors were the 10:1 oil mixing ratio, (which was reduced to 25:1 in the 80's by changing the carb needle on Villiers equipped models, or the main jet on the Amal carb models), and the noise levels. Boy, did these beasts smoke loudly!!

In summary, if you have one of these old motors then you have the perfect reserve emergency motor. Parts are likely to be available for some time to come, thanks to the efforts of Sheridan Marine and enthusiasts like John Williams. Just buy a packet of ear plugs, a lot of 2 stroke oil, and avoid motoring near any wildlife reserves!

[Mike Goodwin]

I was told that the small Mercs(15hp and under ) are made by Tohatsu, same as the Nissan. My 6hp Nissan 4 stroke is only 55lbs.

[willie]

I just happen to have a very nice British Silver seagull (special long shaft) that is collecting dust. Runs perfect, looks perfect. Have photos if you would like, maybe we could trade for something? Or about $400 cash would work.
Have book to go with it. :rolleyes:

[epiphany]

Bill -

I am really interested in that Seagull. I'll PM you my email address, would love to see some pics, and get a little more info from you about it.

[cbs]

my commander came with a 9.9 honda outboard that was jammed in the well, to big1 i am trading it in, any suggestions , on hp. 4-5-6-* ?

[Mike Goodwin]

6 hp. Nissan fits with ease and drives the boat to hull speed, weighs in at 50lbs or so.

[Bill]

my commander came with a 9.9 honda outboard that was jammed in the well, to big1 i am trading it in, any suggestions , on hp. 4-5-6-* ?

Use the search function for outboard. There has been much discussed on this subject.

[John]

Valhalla No 287 has a Johnson 2 cycle 9.9 Outboard in her well. In order to place the outboard in the well, I have to turn the motor 45 Deg off center and drop the lower unit through the well in a kitty corner manner. After the lower unit is clear I can rotate the motor back on center and drop it onto the forward board of the well.

[Hull376]

Go with the Nissan, Tohatsu, Mercury 6 HP 4 cycle. These are all the same engine, all made by Tohatsu. Many of us have these, and seem to be trouble free and very reliable. I second Mike's suggestion. Get the accessory that lets the pull start cord exit vertical

[Robert Lemasters]

Talked to a fellow at the boatyard from Washington State who said that he uses an 6hp electric outboard motor for his 26 ft sailboat. He says that the motor puts out the same power as a 9 hp gas outboard.Can be fully charged from 110 shorepower in a few hours with a run time of about 10 hours at hullspeed with no power drop off. Drawback is the weight of the 10 deep cycle 6 volt batteries. With the 50 lb. electric outboard motor unit thats a total weight of about 400 +lbs I should think. He noticed me changing the oil in my Nissan outboard said that gas powered outboards would be a thing of the past someday. Price of his electric outboard (60 volt)was over $4,000 plus batteries and charger. :confused:

[Robert Lemasters]

Did some research, 6 hp electric outboard motors with bank of 10 6 volt deep cycle batteries would weigh over 700 lbs, would operate at hull speed on our boats for less than 2hrs, and need 12 hours to recharge discharged batteries with 20% charge remaining. Hense no free lunch.

[c_amos]

I have thought about an electric trolling motor just to get in and out of the slip. It seems like that might be a viable option for someone who mainly daysails.

On the original topic, my 6hp yamaha 2 stoke and the old suzuki 8 2 stroke moved my boat just fine. The 9.9 2 stroke on Ariel Spirit was too heavy, and made too much thrust at anything more then half throttle. The merc 9.9 was hard to drop in the well, and is even harder to remove.

IMHO, a 5,6 or 8 hp is pleanty, and the lighter the better.

FWIW.

On edit:

I just did a search, there are pages and pages of threads on outboards. Each time we start a new one, it makes the next guy have a harder time find their answer (having to seach through multiple threads). It might help if we could merge some of them, and all remember to search the old threads before starting new ones.

[Bill]

I just did a search, there are pages and pages of threads on outboards. Each time we start a new one, it makes the next guy have a harder time find their answer (having to seach through multiple threads). It might help if we could merge some of them, and all remember to search the old threads before starting new ones.

Yes, it REALLY helps if people search first and post last ;) Merging threads is definately on my to do list, and some do get merged. :) Hopefully when we upgrade the software, the merging process will be a bit easier.

[Edgewood]

What is best 15" or 20" or 25"?

[Mike Goodwin]

20" fits the boat and keeps the prop in the water.

[c_amos]

Bump ;)

Bump

[Theis]

The deeper the shaft, and hence the exhaust, the more important it becomes to vent the exhause relief outlets obove the wate line. The deeper shaft increases the back pressure throught the exhaust outlet in the lower unit, particularly when the motor is idling or at low speeds. This will therefore increase the amount of exhaust that exits via the pressure relief holes (so there is no back pressure, regardless of the level of the lower unit exhaust outlet). When operating at higher speeds the through prop exhaust sucks the exhaust out (or is designed to do so - but perhaps not completely) A prop/exhaust that is one foot lower than a shorter version increases the back pressure by 62 lbs/inch.

But still I would opt for a longer prop shaft -and in no case take a standard length because it pops out of the water - in my experience. Other than as mentioned above, I don't see any disadvantage to as long a shaft as you can get.

[Edgewood]

The ultra long shaft(25") that I am considering comes standard with Alternator, which is a plus.

[Mike Goodwin]

According to motor people ,those that fix them and sell them, if your transom is 15" off the water then get a 15 , 20 a 20 and 25 a 25 . They say it is not good to put a 25" shaft on a 15" transom . A 20 comes closest to fitting these boats .

Not my words , my mechanic's .

[Theis]

Ordinarily, I would listen to the OB fixit people, and have done so until some recent inquiries regarding the OB and the Ariel. When the answers are randomlly different, and border on "I don't know but my best guess is.....", then your own best judgement is my recommendation. For example, I no longer take the advice of the OB fixit types with regard for fuel mix. With the Yamaha, it is ONLY 100:1, not 75:1 or 50:1 as most OB types I have contacted have suggested - their reasoning being that a bit more oil is erring on the safe side. The richer oil alternatives do not work.

The problem with the OB fixit types (and generally the manufacturers as well) is that they are generally not familiar with the unique circumstances of powering a sailboat with the motor in an inboard well. Their recommendations for shaft length are based on a conventional boat, and perhaps even a conventional non-planing hull. These boats do not have the problem with cavitation at the lengths they recommend, do not have a keel extending far below the drive shaft, nor do they go out in heavy seas, nor are they asked to run when the boat is heeling at 20 to 30 degrees. In short, the information upon which they base their recommendation is notoriously incomplete.

Summarizing, I would recommend ignoring the OB fixit types and going with the insight of those that have OBs driving the Ariel - which in today's world, is a unique OB driven design. The caveat, however, is if you make it the drive unit lower in the water, the back pressure is greater than the OB design back pressure, and the amount of exhaust exiting the pressure relief ports will be greater. This exhaust must be exited to the outside world (not just the motor well). This may not be mandatory with a shallow draft motor.

[frank durant]

This 'simple' question is getting WAY too complicated for a basic mind like mine. IMHO...I had a 20" shaft and found that even motoring into waves that at times were quite large...I experienced only VERY minimal cavitation. 20" is fine in my books...it works!!

[Theis]

Back to basics. Yesterday I took the critical measurement. I have 15-16 inches from the water surface to the center of the prop. My engine has cavitated a couple times in high seas. If I had a preference, I would put it in the 17-19 inch range.

[c_amos]

20" fits the boat and keeps the prop in the water.
Add another vote for 20" from me.

The longer shafts (9.9 merc long shaft, and johnson 8) I have seen on Ariels don't 'bite' any better then mine, and my 20" Yamaha 6 has never come out of the water on me.

I agree with Peter, in that I might not go with a 15" shaft for fear it would not stay below the surface.

The old Suzuki 8 that I had was a couple inches shorter(17"?), and it never came out, but would get close enough to cavitate in a bad chop (but still useable). I would not use a short shaft on an outboard if it were going to hang on a bracket mount or a transom (like the P-26) since they tend to pop out of the water more then the 'outboard in the well' like we have.

I am sure that with a 25" shaft, the prop gets 'cleaner' water deeper, but it also produces more drag there when sailing. Having motored Ariel's with both, I prefer a 20" shaft, and will probably re-power with the same. (and will not go over 8 hp FWIW).

[Howard]

6 HP Merc 2 on mine, if I had the dosh I would go for a four, but a two is cheaper. Would not go less than 6. BTW, I strapped a 15 on the back a couple months ago, just to see if you could tow a skier, you can't. ;)

[Howard]

A thread from the dead...bump indeed.

I was just thinking the opposite as I dangle mine (20")off the back and can almost bury it if I want. Middle position on my Garelick mount keeps it buried most of the time, plus I can turn on a dime with it off the back.



Add another vote for 20" from me.

The longer shafts (9.9 merc long shaft, and johnson 8) I have seen on Ariels don't 'bite' any better then mine, and my 20" Yamaha 6 has never come out of the water on me.

I agree with Peter, in that I might not go with a 15" shaft for fear it would not stay below the surface.

The old Suzuki 8 that I had was a couple inches shorter(17"?), and it never came out, but would get close enough to cavitate in a bad chop (but still useable). I would not use a short shaft on an outboard if it were going to hang on a bracket mount or a transom (like the P-26) since they tend to pop out of the water more then the 'outboard in the well' like we have.

I am sure that with a 25" shaft, the prop gets 'cleaner' water deeper, but it also produces more drag there when sailing. Having motored Ariel's with both, I prefer a 20" shaft, and will probably re-power with the same. (and will not go over 8 hp FWIW).

[Bill]

A thread from the dead...bump indeed. I was just thinking the opposite as I dangle mine (20")off the back and can almost bury it if I want.

The management frowns on stern mounted outboards. Very dangerous in rough seas as was documented by the experience of a Bay Area skipper. Discussion is in another ob thread . . . :mad:

[Howard]

The management frowns on stern mounted outboards. Very dangerous in rough seas as was documented by the experience of a Bay Area skipper. Discussion is in another ob thread . . . :mad:

Oy --- it's a sailboat after all innit it?! ;)

[walberts]

The 2006 Nissan 6 hp four stroke outboard comes with a 25 inch shaft and an alternator.

[Howard]

www.torqeedo.com/uploads/media/boot_duesseldorf_2006_english_05.pdf


They say it will push a 6500lber for close to 30 hrs on two twelve volt batteries. Available online now for $2200 +/-. It weighs 25 lbs and breaks down into a waterproof case. There is a smaller one for dinghies where the battery is integral.

I am very interested in this and just wondered if anyone had seen/tested these.

[ebb]

Hey Howard, the site doesn't come up.
Sounds real interesting!

[Howard]

Sorry, I changed the link, try again.
It now points to their full line of stuff.

[ebb]

uses rechargable 24v lithium manganese batteries.
Maybe the OB shows up at the boatshow this year?
It's not new that this type battery chemistry is used in high torque situations (like the Milwaukee 18v cordless line). But in this case we'd have to buy the whole kit from the manufacturer. (?) Don't know that these batteries even exist for this application here. Who makes them?
What life do they have?
Don't know anything about 24v!
Do they have to have a smart charger for the batteries?
How much?
Can the boat be run on them?
Great if it works. Need to know more.
How much (for no fumes, no explosion danger, no polution, no unfixable/away-from-the-shop modern OB probs) will the trade off cost?

Have you checked out the 'cruiser' 800 model? All I see is a shaft and a tiller. No whirly-johnny box between the tiller and the shaft to make it work....?

[Howard]

The Cruiser is the big one which can use any combination to reach 24v. (6x4, 12x2) They do have battery systems, but, from what I've heard, you do not have to use them.The 800 has an integral battery that recharges off a regular power outlet.

Variable F-R on same throttle, or remote placement. No need to fire up the motor as it is always ready to go. Sounds like a 40 watt panel and this in my climate would be the peach.

[ebb]

At 27# the 'cruiser' is unbeatable!
338's Yamaha 8-4 is over 110#! Add the gas and a battery to that!
But you'd have to have at least two dedicated batteries for the electric.
They should post some videos on their site. Immediately.

And another thing: A Whole Lot Less Noise.
(Maybe you can hear the batteries draining.)

Maybe you need a Yamaha generator to keep it charged.
Can this be too much a good thing?
What are the pros and cons here?

I'm sceptical because we've had electric boats for decades. The electric outboard was invented in the 1880's in France. What took so long to get to Germany?
Ray Electrocat
www.rayeo.com
has a 26' pontoon boat powered by
16 (ahem, SIXTEEN) Exide GC V bats
requiring TWO 25amp chargers.... (which you plug in overnight back at the dock, no doubt. And an overnight charge might not be enough.)
The motor doesn't generate more than 5hp on a 60v(!!!!) system.*
and the boat "comes with a rotating captain's seat."

This may be quiet power, but it'd be real quiet without enough juice.
The problem with electric power has always been the number and weight of batteries needed for a decent amount of time running.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
This edit at a later date (1/9/07)
I guess I'm getting punchy: There is a short paragraph in Boatbuilder magazine for Jan/Feb introducing the 2hp Torqueedo(sic) and pointing out that what we're looking at, in the house photo, is the lith/man. battery mounted on top of the unit. It is a unique machine in that the whole thing can be disassembled and folded into a knapsack. The bigger one has the battery options. Takes me awhile.
The rated range for the 'cruise' is (140km/h) 76 nmph on two 220amp 12v bats. Don't know if conversion is correct - or how it relates to pushing an A/C thru a chop. Cruising with this electric OB sure will require extra bats and a super off-grid charger.
What do you think about the Torgeedo's?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________
* a visit to the >ray< site above is almost like going to another country where only fresh water and lakes exist. All the accessory equipment has strange names. Maybe a comparison can be made between the motors and power needed. It isn't clear to me what advantages the cruise model Torgeedo has over any other electric OB - except that it is aimed at the sailboat market. I guess. (I find the Torgeedo site uninformative and unfriendly. Really peculiar if you are trying to sell something. And google has never heard of these folks!)
5hp isn't enough power for any sailboat that has to be large enough to carry enough support batteries, imco. And if you're thinking solar for recharge you'll need 1/2 a football field for the array. Check out the solar page there.

As usual tho this is all an opinion.
Just throwing this stuff out here, in hopes that some informed human will illuminate this subject for us.
Cruising without the smell of gas and EXHAUST - and the noise and vibration of the motor - would be FANTASTIC.

[Howard]

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/265318/10001/820/478/10 (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/265318/10001/820/478/10")

Here it is from WasteMarine.

[MRH]

I powered my Commander with a 9.9 hp 2 cycle Suzuki from 1988 through 2004. I thought I needed 9.9 hp because the tides outside of Lake Tashmoo on the Vineyard run 3+ knots. However, when it was time to repower in 2005, I wanted a 4 stroke for cleaner operation and couldn't find a 9.9 hp 4 stroke which would fit in the well.

I followed the advice of several posts on this site and repowered with a 6 hp Nissan 4 stroke. The 6 hp Nissan is perfectly adequate motoring against the 3 knot tide, if not quite as fast as the 9.9 Suzuki. In slack tide or opposing a lighter tide, the 6 hp Nissan is as effective as the 9.9 Suzuki.

The 6 hp Nissan is about 25 lbs. lighter than the 9.9 Suzuki, making it much easier to remove from the well, and is noticably more economical than the 2 stroke Suzuki. Its possible to fill two six gallon tanks and go through a whole season without refueling. And I don't miss the 2 stroke smoke.

The Nissan can also be swiveled 180 degrees to provide optimal reverse thrust. It also has an attachment which allows you to pull the starter cord up vertically instead of out horizontally - althought this is a preference rather than a clear benefit.

Features that the 6hp Nissan lacks include an electric starter and a rectifier to charge the battery.

MRH

[Howard]

(I find the Torgeedo site uninformative and unfriendly. Really peculiar if you are trying to sell something. And google has never heard of these folks!)


Yeah, the website is obviously a computer based translation which loses some of that famous German sense of humour.
:rolleyes:

The product is only two months old so that may explain the dearth of google entries.

It is the cost and weight/power that are different from previous incarnations IMO.

Probably could be used with a combination of a solar panel and the KISS wind generator from what I see on their site. Ah the freedom!!!

[Robert Lemasters]

The Nissan 6 hp 4 stroke is all that I that have needed for my ol' Commander. It pushes the boat at hull speed, and I have had no trouble going against the tides and winds so far. The light weight (55 or so lbs.) is a plus at my age. Good fuel economy (about 1/2 gal. hr near hull speed) is also a plus. The only problem that I have had is the pot metal handles/leavers on the threaded screw thing-a-ma-jigs for attaching the motor to the transom. I broke one of the handle things with pliers trying to untighten them last year after a sail( very little pressure and one broke). The threads ,even though I keep them lubed with grease etc. corrode fast here in this salt water envirionment. Still this Nissan is a great little motor for what I payed for it four years ago. I also like the fact that I do not have to mix oil with the gas and there is no oil slick in the water when running. Oh, and it dosn't take any time at all getting it ready for the season, replacing the oil in the bottom unit and changing the oil;although, I have yet to change the water pump impeller which someone at the yard said should be inspected and or replace every year as it is made of some kind of rubber and may degrade even if not used all that much. One issue or dislike of mine is that it is not made in the USA but what is these days.I can't help but wonder why all of the big new sailboats have sail drives with all of the maintenance, leaking and corrosion problems. They are like having the bottom unit of an outboard motor in salt water all of the time...waiting for crab pots lines and whatever else that they strike to damage them. They don't make sense at all.

[c_amos]

The Nissan 6 hp 4 stroke is all that I that have needed for my ol' Commander.

Does the nissan / tomatsu not have the optional rectifier kit abailable? I have one on my Yahaha 6, and it is nice to have.

[Robert Lemasters]

Yes, I suppose that I could recharge my batteries or provide power for my running lights with the motor running, that is another good feature with this motor. I have never had the need to do so, I have never run down my batteries. I have two deep cycle batteries that are recharged with a solor panel. There is an diesel motor I could get , If I wanted it (25Hp)for my Commander but the Nissan is all that I need. I would give it some real thought (the work and time) if I could get a small Yanmar cheap. I may with help, if I have the time and money and "she -who-must- be -obeyed's" ok, when I pull my Pearson 26, look into putting in that diesel. The 26 Pearson had a Merc 9.9 hp 4 stroke, and the person who I bought it from said that the boat needed that much hp to maintain headway when he brought the boat here (against moderate wind and tide).

[c_amos]

The 26 Pearson had a Merc 9.9 hp 4 stroke, and the person who I bought it from said that the boat needed that much hp to maintain headway when he brought the boat here (against moderate wind and tide).

That does not seem to make much sense to me. The P-26 is a lighter boat. :confused:

Maybe it cavitates being hung off of the transom vice being in a well?

[Howard]

If you get the x-tra long shaft (25") it comes with a rectifier for charging for an extra 100 bucks. I have been looking around for a spare as I have a Honda 9.9
4 stroke that has charging capability, but weighs a ton.

I have to switch over when I use my "shoal" draft boat for low tides here. It is a hard decked cat (Combo Cat - sail + outboard) that draws about 14" and gets going pretty quick.

[Robert Lemasters]

c-amos... Maybe the prop pitch on the Merc 9.9 had something to do with it. I have two props for my Nissan, I have the stock prop for a spare and another prop that I had the pitch changed at the shop(per Micheal Goodwin). The motor with the stock prop had about 1/4 or more throttle that did nothing, with the new pitch prop most of the throttle is now used for forward motion. The 26 Pearson is lighter, wider and higher, plus it is a fin keel, what that has to do with it all, I'm not sure.I will be taking the fellow's advice and use a 9.9 Hp motor, this fellow has three sailboats and has been sailing for 40 some years. He motored the 26 here, some 30 miles in a rain storm against an outgoing tide most of the way. I moved the boat when I bought it with the 9.9, I thought the motor had pleanty of power, but hull speed is hull speed. I like to think of prop pitch this way, like the threads on a screw,the more turns per inch...well you know.:confused:

[ebb]

Could the difference between the Pearson 26 (PHRF216) and the Pearson Ariel 26 (PHRF261) be explained by Newton's First Law?
As we see the mass and shape of the Ariel is total different from the Pearson 26.
A smaller hp OB might well keep the displacement hull going and more managable while the lighter finkeel dinghy style hull will require more horse power and a bigger prop in the same conditions.
Inertia helps the Ariel punch thru the water in a more steady controlled fashion. While the P26, because of its mass, shape and weight is slowed by each wave, more influenced by wind and water conditions.

Could this be a reason why Ariel is considered by many to be a better offshore cruiser?:D

[Robert Lemasters]

ebb...That sounds about right.I did notice that at the dock the wind and waves knock the 26 boat around more than the Commander, a lot more in fact. I have yet to sail the 26 boat and my bother-in-law, Richard, who I bought the boat for has never come down to even see it. I plan on pulling it this spring if Harvey( the owner and manager of the yard gets around to it( here in Harvey world). The boat needs some work: bottom needs cleaned and bottom painted, spreader needs to be replaced (have made one), furler is locked up solid, all lines need to be replaced, inside cushions are being made, could use a new set of sails, rudder seems to be ok for this boat, small cockpit deck is somewhat soft...whew. I have friends and neigbors that I am trying to get interested in forming a sail cub or something for the 26 boat so that the boats will be used and to share expenses. I had a few heath problems that are now almost behind me and I had little time to sail or work on the 26 boat. I would not trade my Commander for anything but the 26 boat has more room and is a better sailing boat in the light/very light winds we have here all Summer along with the heat and humidity.

[Robert Lemasters]

Howard...your sailboat looks to be about the same size and shape as an old wooden runabout I had as a kid, it was a great boat, had a 33 hp Scott Atwater outboard engine that was very fast in those days. There is 18 ft bildge keel sailboat here in the yard that belongs to a friend of mine for shallow water.Does your boat have a retractable keel? Looks good and fun.

[Howard]

Howard...your sailboat looks to be about the same size and shape as an old wooden runabout I had as a kid, it was a great boat, had a 33 hp Scott Atwater outboard engine that was very fast in those days. There is 18 ft bildge keel sailboat here in the yard that belongs to a friend of mine for shallow water.Does your boat have a retractable keel? Looks good and fun.

It's a cat. Daggerboards down against the wind and up running away.

[Robert Lemasters]

Howard, I can now see that it is a cat, thought it was a mono hull. There is a lot to be said about cats, saw one sailing down the river in good SSW wind the other day and he was flying.

[c_amos]

My Yamaha is taken apart awaiting a new impeller right now. Had a discussion with another Sailor in my marina today.

He has a 20" shaft 2006 Merc 6hp 4 stroke. He wants a 25" shaft, and offered to sell me his current motor, which has only been used a couple times.

Couple questions for the panel

1). Was the 2006 Mercury 4 stroke still the same as the tomatsu / nissan motor as it had ben in prior years?

2). What kind of money was it to add the charging coil? I know on my yamaha the flywheel was the same, all that you had to add was the coil... is the mercury the same?

3). Did you see a REAL fuel savings compared to 2 stroke motors (I have heard some end up throttling the 4 strokes up higher so they loose the gain in fuel economy).

4). Who has them, and are you happy with them?

.....and if anyone has any ideas, what is a fair price for a year old motor that has been lightly used?

[joe]

Yes, Tohatsu / Nissan / Mercury are all made by Tohatsu.

[epiphany]

1 - Yes.

2 - Seems like it was $100 or more. Dunno what is involved with the install, wasn't hard as I recall. BUT: Not worth it, IMO - it only put out a small amount of current, more like a trickle charge, not like a house bank recharge amount. To get the full amount of current (which was like only 2 amps) you would have to run full throttle or near it. When motoring, I don't run the engine that hard very often, it's not needed.

3 - I made good 1/4 gal per hour running from Wilmington to here, almost nonstop (3 hrs sleep in 34 hours total trip time), including some hellacious wind on the nose, and 2-4' seas on the Cape Fear River from Swans Cut to Southport - wuzzat, 10 miles, two+ hours easy? I think 2 strokes have more low end torque, but at 'cruising speed' I don't think there is that much difference.

4 - Mines been great. I think in all except for very steep pitching seas, a short shaft would be OK as far as cavitation.

Price - a big guess - 25-30% off? Maybe a little more?

[c_amos]

FWIW, for any who may follow this thread later.

I found a couple places online selling the nissan (2007) 6hp 4 stroke with the 20" shaft for $1275.

It looks like the vertical pull option is still available one place I called quoted me $89.99 for it, and I can get the 7" pitch prop for $59.99. The charging option looks like $145.

It seems as though the Mercury price is higher for some reason... :confused:

The guy I was talking to said he paid around $1600 for his, and they seem to retail for around $1800.... can not figure out for the life of me why.

[MRH]

Nissan 6

Having had the Nissan 6 hp on my Commander, I would recommend the long shaft. With the 20" short shaft you'll experience some caviation in a steep choppy seas - the very conditions in which you'll least appreciate the cavitation. You'll amortize the incremental cost of the long shaft over the very long service life of the Nissan 6 and be glad you did.

The vertical pull starter cord is a preference rather than a clear benefit. It works fine, but I found one drawback. When the vertical pull apparatus is installed through the opening in the engine cover, the rubber sound insulation gasket which surrounded the stock "horizontal" pull cord is removed. As a result, you get a little less sound insulation and a little more noise with the vertical starter. I would try the stock "horizontal" pull cord on your boat. If you have no problem with the stock pull cord, stick with it. If you have a problem with the stock "horizontal" pull cord, such as part of the bulkhead obstructing a "clean" pull, or are otherwise uncomfortable with the stock pull cord, you can always add the vertical pull.

MRH

[Westgate]

We just purchased a new Tohatsu 6 hp 4 stoke for #387. It was a long shaft model. We paid about $1400 in FLA. I guess Tohatsu is the #1 selling outboard in the world which surprised me. Yes they do make small block mercs as well. We just ran it more or less non stop for 4 days and it worked great. No cavitation even with a 20 degree list during motor sailing. Depending on tide pushed us along at 6 knt at just over half throttle. I too would also recommend a long shaft. I was going to buy a Yammy 6hp but I felt it was too big for the well esp with that fancy gear shifter on the throttle. Was also alot more money.

Guy told me that a charging upgrade would run about 200 bucks since they have to put on a new fly wheel.

The thing that I really like about this outboard is the weight which comes in around 50 lbs. Makes the dreaded engine in and out much less of a chore for old backs like mine. I don't like the engine cover which is a pain to get on and off. Also wished it had a proper dip stick instead of the modified plastic cap/dipstick which I fine hard to read. I guess as the oil gets dirty this will improve!

I bought this motor with many doubts but it turns out to be a great power plant for an Ariel. I guess the Mercs and Nissans would be similar.

I would recommend it to new engine buyers and I'm sure if you shop around you could get a beter price than we did at 1730 on a Sat evening in small town FLA!

Andrew

[Westgate]

I do have a question?

What is the "best" prop for a 6hp outboard. I have little reverse power with the stock Tohatsu prop and I heard that a different pitch prop would improve this. What are the forward vs reserse power tradeoffs with different props?


Andrew

[joe]

I second Andrew's prop question??
Joe

[Bill]

Craig has the answer:


I can get the 7" pitch prop for $59.99.

[Marty Thomas]

Nissan 6

Having had the Nissan 6 hp on my Commander, I would recommend the long shaft. With the 20" short shaft you'll experience some caviation in a steep
MRH

I'm a bit confused. I'm about ready to replace the Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke that came with #242 with a new Mercury 6hp 4-stroke with the 20" shaft after reading all the great suggestions offered here.
I had thought that the 20" shaft was the long shaft and that the short shaft was 15". Do I actually need a 25" shaft for my Commander?

Marty Thomas
Commander #242

[Westgate]

Marty:

15" is short 20" is long and 25" is extra long. I think that the 20" would be fine in most situations. At least situations that I would find myself out in a 26 foot boat!


Andrew

[Marty Thomas]

Thanks Andrew, that's what I thought.

[MRH]

Marty -

Sorry for my mistakes regarding the length of the "long shaft" and the availablility of an alternator.

My Nissan 6 HP 4 Stroke came with the 20" "long" shaft and an 8 x 8 prop. It works well and doesn't cavitate. In 2005, it cost $1265.00 from Hawthorne Cove Marina in Salem. I also purchased the vertical start option part #369B059110 & #3b2059120 for $75.

Other options available included a 8"x7" prop for $50.00 and and alternator
$178 for + $140.00 installation.

[Marty Thomas]

Excellent MRH. Thanks for the information. I'll have to look into Hawthorne's.

Marty

[MRH]

Marty FYI:

Providence Craigslist listing for Nissan 6hp:
Nissan 6hp 4 Stroke Outboard - 10 hours - $1000

Reply to: sale-294925245@craigslist.org
Date: 2007-03-16, 9:18AM EDT

Bought 3 years ago and used only about 10 hours on a sail boat. We had a baby two years ago and sold the sail boat and went to power. Motor was used one season and then it was serviced by the dealer and has not been used since - stored indoors. Motor has the long shaft (20") and runs like a top. Exhaust through prop, quiet, starts on first pull and hums like a sewing machine. This motor lists for near $1,600.00 - get it now before the season heats up.


Location: Bristol
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

PostingID: 294925245

[Marty Thomas]

Thanks for the tip, MRH. I sent the seller an email.
If it has an alternator and vertical start option it will be perfect.

[walberts]

Has anyone put one of these things on? I ordered the adaptor kit from Online Outboards.com It doesn't look as though it will fit in the well because it extends beyond the engine cowling about 2".

No directions came with the parts.

[Hull376]

I put one on my boat and no problem with the Nissan 6hp (which I have) fitting in the well. OK clearance from the top or from the front side of the well of the standard issue Ariel.

[Tim Mertinooke]

I had a Nissan 6hp on my ariel and would simply open the lazzerette, turn the engine sideways, and then give it one pull straight out to start. It was simple and it worked so the cord could be pulled at the preferrred angle without chafe. Once it was running, I would turn it back to the correct orientation.

[Hull376]

See these pics of the vertical pull on my Nissan. The red circle on the second photo shows the two screws that attach the pull to the motor. The piece does not extend as far out from the cover as the bottom handle does (see in first pic)

[walberts]

Thanks for the pictures, Kent. I see how it goes on now. It looks like it should fit. I was going to send it back ... but I was told that they wouldn't accept returns ... Now, it looks as though I will be able to use it ... which was the point of buying it in the first place!
:)

[Rico]

I have a 2003 NISSAN 6HP, 4-stroke outboard engine with the long shaft (20”) on the Mephisto Cat.

I’ve used this motor in San Francisco Bay, as well as on the recent coastal voyages from Ensenada, MX, to San Francisco as described in previous posts.

The typical issues faced with outboards on Ariels & Commanders seem to be the following:

1.- Will it fit in the outboard well?
The 6 HP Nissan fits quite nicely in the well being able to rotate pretty much throughout its full range. The lazarette cover closes, clearing the top of the motor by two to three inches.

The bottom unit is thin & slender reducing hydrodynamic resistance while sailing with the motor in the motor well – which I often do….

This motor only weighs 55lbs (Per Nissan) which makes it easier to handle. I think that this is the heaviest you can go while still being able to (relatively) easily handle an oddly shaped mass as an outboard motor.

2.- How much power do I need? (HP)?
I find that this motor moves the boat quite well. It will cruise at about 4 to 4.5 knots at ¾ throttle, and will reach hull-speed (~6kt) at a bit less than full throttle.

While sailing in SF bay in the past, where the winds and currents are not to be ignored, I have found the need to use the full power of this motor while fighting a strong current, or while motoring into a marina’s channel with a strong wind on the nose.

While using the motor during coastal cruising, I found that when faced with strong winds on the nose - and the resulting wind swell - the going gets slow. Mostly because out in the open, the wind swells easily kill your forward momentum.

In these cases a bit more horsepower might help, but these are unusual circumstances for these boats. AND I would argue that if you find yourself in this situation at that point you’d be MUCH better off sailing off with a reefed main and a storm headsail (or just the storm sail…) as this will improve your ride and likely progress as well, so the benefit of a bigger outboard in these cases may never be enjoyed… while you’d ALWAYS be burdened by the big outboard’s weight.

However, in my time spent in coastal marinas, such as Marina del Rey / Santa Monica Bay where currents are negligible, I found myself wishing for a little (maybe 2-3 HP at most) two stroke motor that I could pull out in a jiffy… This would be more than enough to get in and out of the marina when the winds were blowing. If I were still in this environment, I’d definitely go with the tiny motor.


3.- How fast will the boat go?
6HP will get you to hull speed. There is no need for more power. 20HP will maybe give you hull speed PLUS maybe 1 knot more, PLUS a big bow wave in front of your boat… while using MUCH MORE Fuel. In short, there is no need… (unless, as I described above, you will be ONLY sailing against very strong winds in sheltered waters -with no wind swell. These conditions would allow you to enjoy the extra horsepower to fight the wind, but these conditions are unlikely…)

4.- Shaft length
My motor has the 20” long shaft. (Note: For 2009, Nissan is offering a 25” extra-long shaft.)

I found that the 20” long shaft works really well on these boats. The steepest swells faced were while motor sailing around Point Conception where we saw 8-10 ft ocean swells that were far apart enough to not present a problem (11-14 seconds). Big swells are not a problem for the motor, but when these swells are reflected by the concave coast between Point Conception and Point Arguello, and become 4-5 ft swells coming in opposing directions, plus toss in a 1-2 ft wind swell… All of these combining at random can present a tall chop which can be a challenge.

Even in these conditions the prop managed to stay in the water but did suck in some surface air for an instant a couple of times as the conditions above combined to produce a steep/deep chop. Note that when the cavitation happened, it was quite unexpected based on the behavior of the boat at the time, and never due to a severe pitch or roll. It was simply a very steep chop resulting from the combined swells.

The cavitation was only for an instant causing the revs to increase, but only for an instant. I do not think that the motor had time to reach max revs. I do not think that this is an issue based on the amount of time that the motor had to work in these conditions.

The 25” shaft would provide a bit more of a margin against the above situation, but most of us would not be in this stuff as a matter of routine… (hopefully). The down side of this extra length would only be a small added weight and the 5 extra inches increasing the required storage space.

Thoughts?

[mbowman]

Hey Rico, I too have a Nissan, but I have the 9.8 model. Great motor for my Ariel. It fits my motor well very good...... well it may be a little tight. I just had a lot of work on mine. $320.00 worth! New impeller, water pump, spark plugs, foot oil,etc... and he also found the bolts that hold the bottom drive unit on had corroded so bad that they were barely hanging on. He said I was luck the foot didn't end up in the lake.... (the motor was in salt water for 3 years). He drilled out the corroded bolts.... added new ones.... replaced "O" rings, gaskets, etc. I can't wait till it gets above 30 degrees to hear it start up on the first pull! Well here's hoping anyway!
I know a smaller motor will probably be ok for the Ariel, but when I was down on the coast of Alabama, Florida, the tides were really strong especially in the months of Jan thru March. And the extra kick sure did help out in a few tight situations.

[c_amos]

Bill,

THis might be a good merger candidate with the other two outboard threads.

Just a thought

[c_amos]

Ok,

I have had my Tohatsu 6hp 4 stroke for a few months now. I hate to say it, but I like the Yamaha 6 hp 2 stroke better.

I know this is a departure from the consensus. I do like the fuel use of the Tohatsu better, but that is about it.

The Tohatsu has to come out of the water for anything more then a day or two. The zinc is really really small and erodes fast.

The Yamaha is a 2 stroke so it has more thrust. I tried the pricey 'thrust prop' for the Tohatsu... it did make it back better, but it dropped the 5.2knot WOT speed to 5.0 :(

I know, I know, it IS a sailboat. There are times though when cruising that you want hull speed. The opening bridge that opens on the hour that is between you and the anchorage you want.

I don't think I need more HP, just a better way to get it to the water. My Yamaha did that.

I would like to try the Yamaha 6hp 4 stroke.. but I doubt it would fit in an Ariel well.

The Tohatsu that I bought was ~$1450 with the charging option, and I paid another ~$115 for the thrust prop. I am sorry this is not working out for me, but wanted to post to share for others consideration.

If anyone is looking for a well cared for Tohatsu 6 with the charging option let me know. Also, if anyone has sucessfully mounted a Yamaha 6/8 4 stroke in an A/C well I would like to know of it.

Finally if anyone comes across a Yamaha 6/8 2 stoke in good shape (20" shaft) I would apprecaite your letting me know.

Thanks,

[Westgate]

Craig:

I wonder how much of the performance difference you are experiencing is the result of the switch up from the 2 to the 4 stroker? 4 strokes are different beasts in my experience. They tend to have better low end "power" but suffer in the top end.

The 6/4 yammy does have a larger engine than the Tohatsu (197 cc vs 123 cc). Might produce more torque? Have you seen a yammy 6 in action?

I know exactly what you are talking about wrt racing for bridges. What you forgot to add is the tide is ALWAYS against you when it's going to be close.

[Bill]

. . . I would like to try the Yamaha 6hp 4 stroke.. but I doubt it would fit in an Ariel well . . . Also, if anyone has successfully mounted a Yamaha 6/8 4 stroke in an A/C well I would like to know of it. :

As noted elsewhere in this thread, Tohatsu makes the Yamaha and Nissen 4 & 6 hp 4 stroke engines :eek: Going to an 8 hp 4 stroke requires major modification to the engine well in the lazarette. See Ebb's photo gallery thread for one such modification ;)

[Westgate]

Bill:

Tohatsu does make Nissan and small block Mercury outboards but Yamaha is made by Yamaha.;)

Andrew

[c_amos]

:

As noted elsewhere in this thread, Tohatsu makes the Yamaha and Nissen 4 & 6 hp 4 stroke engines :eek: Going to an 8 hp 4 stroke requires major modification to the engine well in the lazarette. See Ebb's photo gallery thread for one such modification ;)

FWIW,

The Tohatsu plant makes the Mercury, Nissan, and Tohatsu outboards. They are the EXACT same motors, right down to the paint. The Mercury dealers will try to convince you otherwise but there is no difference. (Other then the Mercury being much more $$$) ;)

[Theis]

I have found the zinc Yamaha sacrificial anode will last a couple years in fresh water, less than that in salt water. In fresh water a magnesium anode should be used but Yamaha doesn't make them unfortunatelyso I have to be certain to keep the lower unide and propellor painted so the aluminum doesn't become the sacrificial anode. I only use TriOx bottom paint as it doesn't react with the aluminum andis slime/algae resistant.

[ebb]

well holy Thetis,
Theis you are back!
May have missed an earlier post here....
sure is good to hear from you.
Hope you are well and sailing again.
Heres to ya!

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________

May I ask you OB motor guys this:
Can (a Yamaha 8/4 stroke in my case) an outboard be fresh water flushed while in the raised (tilted) position?

Thanks.

[Westgate]

Ebb:

Does your engine have a flushing port for a garden hose attachment? ie flush port at the top of the engine block. If so then you could flush it in any position because you don't have to run it during the flush.:) If on the other hand you are relying on rabbit ears (flushing from the bottom of the lower unit) then I would not flush in a tilted position because to get full effect of the flush you need to run the engine.:( I would worry about the problems with the oil sump/pump getting starved if not run in a vertical manner.:eek:

Andrew

[Orca]

Please note my post in the Tohatsu 6 area looking for feedback on first hand experience between the 20" and 25" shafts on the new 4 strokes. Ed

[ebb]

Did not respond to Andrew Westgate's #187 post. Sorry!

I know my situation is unique. But 100 plus pound 8HP OBs are not out of the question.
And therefor are not readily removable from the well.
Although I think I've noticed that new (2010) Yamaha 4 X 8s have lost 20# and
now have the garden hose attachment conveniently under the hood.

Amazing!
In the OB world this is about as important an innovation as sliced bread!!!

I naturally have the older model that needs the rabbit ears and the motor to be running to flush.
[later EDIT: I believe the Yamaha is a 2002 model and has that garden hose fixture for flushing. NICE.]

Has anybody here noticed how the garden hose flush works?
Can this fitting be retroed to an older Yamaha?
Is there a kit available?


Assume that lighter two stroke 8HP models are now available that run a lot cleaner - equal to the California ordained four strokers.
I believe they are around 50 or 60 pounds.
I may have to find one of them (in Nevada?)
because well flooding IS a real problem.
Could probably man-handle a 2010 two-stroke in and out of the well.



I plan on installing a Garhauer lifting davit for the steroid Yamaha.
That means the motor could be lifted and flushed in a vertical position.
But that means messing with a strap contraption everytime.
Having to use this strap-thingy seems stupid to me, really.

Another invention for Yamaha to come up with are built-in lifting eyes that you
could hook or tie on to that would raise the motor in a balanced vertical position.
That would make it easy to mount the clamp.
Took a hundred years for the garden hose flush to appear..........

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

I have not looked at the current model Yahamas, but my Nissan 6 hp four stroke has been modified by inserting a fitting into the flushing port on the bottom of my Nissan, and then hose clamping the hose barb on that fitting onto a Yamaha garden hose flushing unit from a model that they made a few years back. They may still be using the same unit now.

The Yamaha device is just a piece of hose and a cool little bracket that attaches to the housing of a motor. the Bracket his a female threaded garden hose plug. It is permanently mounted to my Nissan motor housing. All I have to do is remove the line from my gas tank, lift my motor with my Garhauer Lifting Davit, and while the moor hangs there out of water, remove the Yamaha flushing hose from its bracket with my hand and again by hand attach the male end of the hose on that unit to female end of my dock hose. Then with the Nissan 6 running (as per the Nissan operations manual), I run the motor until I run the motor out of fuel thereby flushing the motor and draining the carburetor.

The built in lifting eyes would be handy. I use a Davis motor lift that must be removed to check the oil. Its a snap to remove and a pain to reattach when the motor is in the well.

[c_amos]

....Assume that lighter two stroke 8HP models are now available that run a lot cleaner - equal to the California ordained four strokers.
I believe they are around 50 or 60 pounds.
I may have to find one of them (in Nevada?).........

The 2-stroke Yamaha's are the same design that they have sold since the 80's. They used chrome rings, and a different needle after (96?) to get them to run on 100:1 mix (still no where near as clean as a 4 stroke).

I loved mine (it was a 100:1) and would probably ditch my new Tohatsu 4x6 for one. The problem is the only ones (if you can still find one) for sale in the US have been the short (15") shaft models favored for tender motors. I had a chance to buy one in the Abaco's and should have jumped on it.

Looks like they stopped even marketing the 15" model in the US now (it is no longer listed on the Yamaha USA site)... here is a link to it (http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/products/marine-outboard/2-stroke-portable/10-8c) for the overseas market (same one they have sold for years).

[ebb]

Thanks guys for the feedback.
(Craig, imagine importing a 8C two Stroke from Australia!!!! Only 55LBS!
I'd never guess they were illegal in Nevada.)


To stir the waters, so to speak,
and if you are interested, find the Whaler Continuous Wave site and see if you can find these threads:
New Montauk: Engine Flushing Procedure.
Earmuff vs Backflush
Silently Flush Your Outboard Engine.
This last thread is older but if you can pick it up talks about using earmuffs while the motor is on the boat and in the salt.
Inventor of the 'Backflusher' specific for sailboats also has a few posts'
The corrosion problem is the same for all even if these Continuous Wave guys have 90 and 150HP OBs. The discussion centers around whether earmuffs will work with a garden hose on and the motor running in the vertical position.

Here is a plausible drill:
Shut off motor.
Leave motor on boat.
Tilt motor up.
Install earmuffs.
Turn on water.
Tilt motor down.
Restart motor.
Run until peehole water is not salty.
Turn off water
Tilt motor and remove muffs..

This supposes that the fresh water source is under pressure.
And this is of some concern for the guys on the Whaler site.
These folks are slanted toward Mercs and Yammys, and there is no mention
of a 6 or 8HP OB.
( It looks like the Backflusher never made it to production. Typing 'backflusher' into google
gets you directly to the thread at ContinuousWave.)

[Orca]

My long shaft Tohatsu 6 worked pretty well but the zinc is so little that it was useless. After about two months on the mooring it was gone. This year I put bigger zinc by drilling through the captivation plate. At the end of the season I was bringing the boat over to the marina in a 30 knot wind when the motor failed (it kept running but raced as something went wrong with the prop or lower unit. It looks like the lower unit corroded through in a pinpoint hole. The bigger zinc method worked with my old outboard for 10 years so I'm not sure what happened. Looks like a $500 bill to buy a lower unit . . . not what I was expecting.

[c_amos]

My long shaft Tohatsu 6 worked pretty well but the zinc is so little that it was useless. After about two months on the mooring it was gone. This year I put bigger zinc by drilling through the captivation plate. At the end of the season I was bringing the boat over to the marina in a 30 knot wind when the motor failed (it kept running but raced as something went wrong with the prop or lower unit. It looks like the lower unit corroded through in a pinpoint hole. The bigger zinc method worked with my old outboard for 10 years so I'm not sure what happened. Looks like a $500 bill to buy a lower unit . . . not what I was expecting.

Wow!

I am sorry to hear this. Both for you, and for me! I sure hope you don't need a new lower unit, maybe it is just the pin?


I pull the motor out of the well now, but did not with the Yamaha (I sailed more days then i did not when I was in NC.)

The zinc issue is not for the daysailor, but for the cruiser (as I see it). When cruising, you are simply not likely to pull the motor each time you anchor.

Even if it were not difficult, it would not be advisable, sometimes things happen that you need the motor for on a 'dark and stormy night'.

My old Yamaha 6hp 2 stroke had a big zinc, and would be happy for 6 months in the water...

[ebb]

Finally dawned on me to take a look at the outboards in the garage.
There's a Seagull Silver Century, a SeaCraft 6 that came with A338, and the 4X8 Yamaha.
The earmuffs would have to be used with the Seacraft - and that's what had stuck in my brain - because I do remember running water through it at the dock.

The 2002 Yamaha has the (sliced bread) hose fitting screwed into a bracket beneath the hood.
You unscrew it and attach the garden hose to the female fitting which is on a short hose attached to the motor
Naturally I've mislaid the manual, but the forums above mention that it's OK to run fresh water through the motor when it's tilted. You must however be careful with the hose pressure.

ContinuousWave guys think that it's better to run fresh water through a running motor. They think that will desalt the whole motor best. But another guy will say the the engineers who designed it know what they are doing and that passive cleaning with the garden hose fitting through a non-running motor is just as good.

I couldn't argue. Desalting the motor mounted in place on the boat - NOT REMOVING IT - is buttering the sliced bread imco.
If and when the motor comes off, then run it in a tub.


ZINCs

I thought it was common practice to ground the whole OB with a large zinc attached to the boat under water near the OB.
The wire would be brought up to an unpainted point under the case. With our OB well, the wire would come up from a bolt on the zinc conveniently through the well. Where it is attached to the motor we should discuss.

That might be the answer to rampant corrosion that the smaller sincs attached to the OB can't handle.
Aren't they specific to the spot they are attached to?
They obviously can't do the job the whole OB zinc is supposed to.

Can we get concensus here?
Think it's really important.

[Tony G]

I'm still back at the lifting davit, Ebb. Why do you think you will need one? With your modified outboard well you shouldn't need the added expense, clutter or weight. With regards to lifting eyes, add your own. Or make a lifting 'harness' out of webbing or some other suitable material.

As far as zincs go I admit I know very little so far. All metal parts protected by a (singular) zinc need to be in contact with each other correct? So are all parts of a lower unit 'conductive' with each other? Is that the reason you want to run a wire from a zinc into the power head? Go easy on me man, I'm just a kid!

[ebb]

Tony,
Yer right. That davit thingy is a bit of extra gear and weight.
A gun tackle on the boom would be cool IF the boom end was above the OB well,
which it certainly isn't.
Once came upon a blog where the guy had actually made an extension for his boom for the purpose of raising his OB.

There are other possibilities. For instance if a boom gallows* is fitted a leg might support a davit arm and gun tackle. Your ab normal geezer isn't going to be able to haul a 110# Yamaha outta the hole. To dismount the behemoth it will have to be lifted with one hand on the tackle, the propeller and fin carefully slewed and guided with the other hand around stuff, and swung over the toerail onto the dock or even into a dinghy. Who knows, but more controlled the better.

Also a davit might be useful for other weighty issues that have to be eased aboard.
Jerry cans or a sodden crew!!!

Really need a kicker half the weight.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
*Can see a boom gallows substituting for the stern pulpit on litlgull, leaving the stern without tubing.
It also would make an important high safety bar in the rear of the cockpit
where imco something strong to hold on to while standing is really a plus.
It also can make it convenient to attach various canopies and privacy enclosures for the cockpit.
The gallow's legs would make it possible to finesse an overweight OB over either side of the Ariel.
Whether a boom gallows is needed if a rigid vang is on the boom is questionable.
Maybe this needs another thread???

[commanderpete]

Maybe one of those "grouper" or guppy" zincs could help with the corrosion issues. Perhaps a homemade model.

Those old Yamaha 2 stroke outboard lower units are very good about surviving in salt water. I've been casually looking for a backup to my 1992 8 horse. A used 6 hp Yamaha longshaft outboard is very difficult to find. The 8 hp is even more rare. It seems like a good one sells for about $500-$700

[ebb]

Here's a 1995 paper on ethanol gas and fuel phasing.
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/waterphs.pdf

that may not come up. But if you visit
google> Marine Stabil - iboats Boating Forums
you'll find a lively and informed discussion on
the products you probably need to keep the gasoline in your tank from getting sicker than it already is.
As I understand it: Stabil RED is for 'winterizing' the gasoline in the tank.
Stabil BLUE is used (with alcohol contaminated gas) while running during the time you are using the motor. It keeps the carborator clean. Don't know what the drill is?

There is a blueline in there to the paper.

We're advised to filter everything going into tanks, including gasoline.
If gasohol can 'phase'/separate into gasoline and ethanol-water,
why not do it intentionally BEFOR we put it into the tank?
Remove the corn lobby crap befor it fouls the motor???

Ethanol is recreational stuff. It's called vodka when you buy it in a bottle.
Of course gasoline poisons it.
There are about 13OZ of ethanol in a gallon of gasohol.

Did you know that water in tankers and pipelines is such a problem in gasohol delivery
that the ethanol is added to the delivery tanker just befor it goes to the gas station.
That is, NOT at the refinery. Ethanol is very attractive to water.
When we buy the stuff we have to be aware of its shelf-life. Storage is a huge problem.
Condensation at a station is a problem, especially if the draw is from the bottom of a tank where ethanol has blended itself with water.
Same problem in a red can.


Not sure, but Stabil as an 'gas drier' would essentially be ISOPROPYL alcohol which will solubilize the H2O but also recombine/blend back into gasohol. And the carburator will like it.
Magic. That's why we keep adding the stuff to the tank.
$$$$$$

[c_amos]

I found a 'new' 1999 Yamaha 6hp, 2stroke 2 cyl.

I am turning my back on the 'new' Mercury / Thoatsu / Nissan 6hp 4 stroke I just purchased.... it is simply not as good of a motor for our boats then the Yamaha.

I like the (slightly) less fuel use, but the vibration, power, weight, are not living up to my expectations.


The fuel use (in real numbers) between my old (identical) Yamaha 2 stroke and the 4 stroke show only a slight savings... the 2 stroke did speeds at less then 1/3 throttle that I need 3/4 throttle on the 4 stroke to get (I have tried 2 different props).


Anyway, just another data point for the discussion.

[ebb]

What a great and rare find.
I'm wondering if there is an apples to oranges comparison here?

Really! I don't know.

But there is a differnce between a standard prop and a high thrust prop.
Also that lower units can be standard or more robust. Is this important?
I understand that our boats are small enough to use a standard OB.
Was this taken into account? Is it important?
Certain that a 2stroke has MORE vibration than a 4stroke. Right?

google> prop size for sailboat outboard
boat design forums

The thread begins with 'liz' asking what to power a 24' 6000LB disp
with a 9.9 4stroke long shaft Yamaha behind the boat's rudder. [Could be an Alberg....]

last poster on thread, alan white:
"Your ratio is 2.92 : 1\The engine RPM is about 5500
Your motor appears to take a max diameter of 10" or so.
The most efficient prop would be too large to fit as a three blade,
so a four blade is recpmmended.
The recommended pitch is 8.5."

He's talking about a Yamaha 9.9 here, not the one you found, Craig.
A decade ago and still unused, I choose an 8HP Yamaha (said to be a choked down 9.9) that weighs in at 110LBS.

That is utterly rediculous, and it is utterly rediculous I customed litlgull's rear end to fit this monster. I know I will want and NEED a motor HALF the weight.
SOON I will also be looking for a 2-stroke, when I finally get on the boat.

We pointed this out befor:
If you can't get the 4stroke to run, it has to go back to the dealer.

With a 2stroke, you can do regular maintenance and tinker to keep it going.
And a 6 or even 8HP 2stroke won't require a crane to lift it out of the well.


Some people have all the luck!

[c_amos]

Dunno ebb,

My old Yamaha 6 hp worked well with the stock (7x8 IIRC) prop, when I switched to the 'high thrust' (also 6x8) mickey mouse ear prop the rpm did not change, but the backing was improved.

When I bought the tohatsu, I tried it with the stock prop which was something like 7x8, I was underwhenmed with this, it did not seem to want to turn up, so I poped for the expensive 5.99 x 8 'high thrust' prop (you can see the details earlier in this thread)... it was not much better.

I suspect I might have been happy with the tohatsu, had I not been spoiled by the Yamaha. I really think your answer of the 8hp (2 cyl) Yamaha with the high thrust arrangement is probably going to prove to be a wonderful motor for Lil Gull. I am glad many others find the 4 stroke Merc/Nissan/Tohatsu solution to work out for them... I am not happy with it myself.

I will do some testing with both motors though, I expect to conduct some rather scientific experiments where I force myself to motor a standard course with both (one at a time of course) to prove out the fuel use issue.

It is interesting to note, the 4 stroke has to work well higher in the RPM range to acheive hull speed then the 2 stroke did... I suspect this will negate some of the fuel savings. I KNOW from experience that the (2 cyl) 2 stroke is smoother then the (1 cyl) 4 stroke... and frankly I doubt that it is any louder (maybe I can barrow a db meter to see for sure). The Yamaha always reminded me of a cyl diesel with it's mechanical drone... not un unpleasant sound to me.

We will see, stay tuned for further updates... if nothing else, I do tend to go on (and sometimes on and on) about what ever I find. :)

[Rico]

I am very curious...

Smoother than the 4 stroke, eh? - Likely noisier???
What's the weight of the Yamaha?
Can you give me model number?

[c_amos]

I am very curious...

Smoother than the 4 stroke, eh? -

Yes, I suspect the reason it is more smooth is because it has 2 cyl, while the 4 stroke has one.

The Tohatsu/Mercury/Nissan is not a bad motor, just not as refined as the Yamaha.

The Yamaha 4 stroke (2 cyl) is silky smooth, in the 6, 8, and 9.9 models. (note: I think we missed it, but I think there is a new Yamaha 6hp 1 cyl also).


Likely noisier???
What's the weight of the Yamaha?
Can you give me model number?

They both weigh 55-60#, and the yamaha makes less noise (at least IMHO) since it does not need to run wide open to get to hull speed.

[ebb]

Two - Stroke Outboard Restrictions - Moderated Discussion Areas
continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum/HTML/009798html

This is a great 'literate' exchange between macho OB owners.
Often hilarious. often informative.
Great repartee, great exchanges between the posters
who actually stay on subject.

Not much at our level of horspower,
but everything seems to be covered - including explaining star ratings on current OBs.
It cleared the air for me!:cool:

Manufacturers, if they will continue to make 2-strokes, will have to make them cleaner running.
Environmental concerns and regs force makers into producing better products.
Hopefully a clean running, morally correct, 2-stoke is right around the corner.
I probably will be unable to afford it.

[agua dulce]

bkeegel2
how does the motor fit in the laz?
i have a 4-strk 6 merc
i think anything bigger would b a pain to mount/dismount?

[Bill]

how does the motor fit in the laz?

A review of the thread should answer that question.

[agua dulce]

Sorry, the dh hijacked my username. He's an incredibly smart man, but in a Chesterton sort of way. ("Am at Market Harborough, where ought I to be?") I already told him he'd have to get his own name, because between my asking dumb questions and his asking questions dumb, if it appears to all be coming from one person, we'll be booted right out of here!

[pbryant]

Nissan Sailpro Issues

Dissolving propellers: I purchased a Nissan 6 HP long shaft "Sailpro" in February: 5 months ago. While painting my boat, I had no choice but to leave it in the water. In six weeks of immersion in sea water, the prop nearly dissolved. The paint was gone, and the leading edges of the blades were reduced to a powdery state that you could rub off with your fingers. The zinc was partly eroded - but still about 75% intact. What I found was the hub nut was finger loose - the prop was being held on by the splines and the cotter pin. The zinc isn't on the prop, and if there isn't adequate electrical continuity between the prop and the zinc, the zinc won't protect the electrically-unbonded propeller.

To their credit, Nissan support sent me a replacement prop, which has yet to show corrosion after I installed it and applied a reasonable amount of torque to the hub nut. You might want to look at your prop....

Failed starter pull cords: Sailing into the harbor one particularly windy day, I followed my usual procedure of keeping my sails active until I was sure I'd get into the harbor. I'm a commercial airplane pilot, and one of the first lessons any good flight instructor teaches is: "never trust an engine." With my slip in sight, I entered the few moments where an engine failure would be especially hazardous (pilings downwind, no room to set an anchor scope, wind directly off my bow) and I pulled down sail in the luff. Just as I got my main down... the engine died. I just shrugged because the idle was a little low and all it took was one pull to restart the engine. So... I reached back and gave the handle a pull --- and it came off in my hand -- while I watched the pull cord go ZING! back into the the engine case. With no propulsion, a 20 knot wind, 15 foot high concrete pilings one boat length away, and little steerage, I watched horrified as my bow turned 180 degrees and the boat headed straight for the stern of the San Mateo County Sheriff's motorboat in it's slip. Poseidon took pity on me and guided my boat into two concrete pilings, and after my boat played pinball with the concrete and made loud scraping sounds, landed me in the only vacant slip with nothing more than ugly black streaks on my (freshly painted) hull.

I opened the pull handle by removing the metal insert in its center and found one inch of the severed pull cord inside, tied with a half hitch. The other side of the metal insert (facing the engine) had a stamped hole through which the cord passed, which has a metal edge as sharp as a knife! You could cut your fingers on it! The other end of the pull cord (once I got it out of the engine) had all the strands cut and splayed such that it was obvious a few strands were cut each time the cord was pulled. And since the pull cord handle conceals the back end of the metal insert, there was no way to detect the failure by inspecting it - without completely disassembling the handle. LOOK INSIDE YOUR PULL HANDLE! Pry the metal insert out and check the condition of the pull cord as it passes through the hole. I estimate that I have only pulled that cord about 50 times since I bought the engine.

My retrofit: 1) Buy one short piece of wooden dowel about one inch in diameter. 2) Cut it about four inches long. 3) Drill a hole in the center. 4) Pass the pull cord through the hole and tie a proper stopper knot. Cost: one dollar. I can now visually inspect the cord's condition.

I called Nissan Support and reported the problem. They said it's unlikely that Nissan will ever fix the defect. I reported it as well to my dealer, who said it's Nissan's problem.

Never trust an engine!

Engine "swing"

The Nissan outboard (probably all outboards) is designed to swing up (aft) when in forward or neutral. That's a great feature on a dingy - prevents the prop from striking the bottom. It's a nasty feature in a sailboat where the keel is deeper in the water than the prop, and consequently the prop isn't vulnerable to striking the bottom (except when moving astern - where the engine can't swing up anyway). So, sailing along at 5 or 6 knots has the effect of causing the prop end of the engine to swing waaay aft, making it a real challenge to access the pull starter. Plus, the engine doesn't seem to start when it's swung that far past vertical (carb floats cutting off the fuel?). One other bad side effect is, because of the angle of the drive shaft, the shaft deflects water into the compartment. Solution: drill two through holes in the engine well and install a chain that prevents the engine drive shaft from swinging aft. Why don't the geniuses who designed an engine specifically marketed for sailboats (not dingys) allow the user to manually lock the swinging mechanism - just as it locks automatically in reverse?

Longitudinal balance:

After adding 65 pounds of engine and 36 pounds of fuel (6 gallons), my Ariel's bow was way up in the air and she was dragging her stern. I added 200 pounds of lead shot to the compartment that used to contain the water tank (long gone). Now she's back on her lines.

I hate engines. That's why I sail. I regard them as a crutch to compensate for poor sailing skills and badly designed marinas. They are at best a necessary evil. I'm considering an inboard electric propulsion retrofit. Has anyone tried that on an Ariel?

[Commander 147]

[QUOTE=pbryant;23434 I hate engines. That's why I sail. I regard them as a crutch to compensate for poor sailing skills and badly designed marinas. They are at best a necessary evil. I'm considering an inboard electric propulsion retrofit. Has anyone tried that on an Ariel?[/QUOTE]

Well maybe not an Ariel but on commanders yes. Check out Commander 227's gallery page. Also I am doing one on Destiny and in my gallery page (Commander 147) you can see the motor and some of the parts for the drive I will be installing.

[ebb]

Sometimes I spend a frustrating hour at breakfast looking on google for auxiliary sailboat electrical schematics.
It's amazing how difficult it is for a dummie to find something useful.

Here is an exchange between a boat builder (LP - Senior Member) who knows at the start more than I will ever know about electrical systems - and begins with a nice clear colorful diagram. With input from others he updates the diagram as help arrives.
In his opening post he says he'd 'like to put it in the electrical WIKI of
boatdesign.net
for the benefit of others.'
This 8 page thread is worth a visit. The schematics are in full page color and downloadable.

A338 is an OB Ariel, thus I find this basic short course in planning the wiring extremely usefull. What makes it unique is the progression of the diagrams.
What do you think?

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Do you have a link to the thread?

[ebb]

Well the address had one of those long specific thingies that in the past just don't seem to work.
So I just assume that googling will get you there, tho not instantly:

google> Wiring diagram for an O/B - Boat Design Forums

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/electrical-systems/wiring-diagram-o-b-26855.html


[ EDIT: whaduyouno - it works!!!!!!!]

[Commander 147]

Thanks Ebb I will study it in detail tonight.

[ebb]

testing access diagram

http://suter.tripod.com/wiring/wiring.jpg

Have to get it by Google> Pearson Triton Wiring Diagram
From the 80's with upgrades. For a Triton with a lot of support for an inboard.

I really liked the emphasis of the thread from boatdesign.net on the OB because that is my interest.
But I like best the changes others suggested that influenced and altered the plan and made it better - so far as I know.

Imagine a basic diagram aimed specifically at the Commander/Ariel sailboat.

BASICS
Starter battary
Deep Cycle Battery
Battery siwtch
Battery isolator
Outboard Starter
External Lights
Cabin Lights
Fuses/Circuit breakers
Single Pole switch
Cabin LED aft, fore, dome/blkhd, V-berth
Masthead light
Steaming
Flood
Port, Starboard, Stern lights.
Bilge pumps/Blower

12V inverter to 120V
120V shore power
120V receptacle

MORES
Battery charger
DC panel
Compass light
Fish finder/depth sounder
Knot meter/log
Engle fridge/builtin
Shower pump
Fresh water pump
ELECTRONICS
OB gauges, oil pressure, ammeter, voltmeter, fuel, temp. tach, starter-ignition switch.

EXTRAS
Air conditioner
Stereo, TV
Water maker.
Hot water


Lightning ground conductors. (Totally separate system)

Solar panels
Charge controller
Digital battery moniter.


Alright, how we do dis?

[Commander 147]

But being that Destiny is going to be an electric drive it will be unlike most Ariels and Commanders out there. My system will have one very large battery bank that outputs 48VDC and a DC/DC inverter that will step the 48V main system down to 12V for the house electric. In addition I will have a seperate 120VAC system that will be available for use when hooked up to shore power.

[ebb]

I've found a good exchange on an ericsonyachts.com site from late last year (current) that looks like a good lead in for litlgull.
The guy gets good advise from the likes of Maine Sail and others on grounding, integrating a simple AC into the mix*, charging, dedicating battery 'banks', and whether he should include an ACR or not.
Seems like a good place for me to make a good start on........ THE PLAN.

Important in this thread is that the progression of the discussion yields a progression of versions of the plan in diagrams with colored wire. Which helps understand how wires are chosen, and where they end. Discover for the first time that the DC ground on an OB boat is the battery negative terminal, not the OB or a bronze plate attached to the hull somewhere (that I fantasized.) It's a place to start.

Also found a Basic Electricity manual on New Boat Builders Home Page that is easy to read, well written, not patronizing, well supported with links and advice. The writer should be thanked with a name - and toasted,
which will happen if this post lights up and becomes a thread in its own right.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
*....and I quote Maine Sail
"AC White/Neutral goes back to shore through the shore power cable.
AC Green/Ground does not go back through the shore power cable. once on the boat, and is grounded on board the boat. In this case to a neg buss bar which is connected to the battery neg terminal or directly to the battery's neg terminal because this is an 'ungrounded' DC system at this point."
there you go, a demo of the dunno:confused:, and why I needs a plan.

[Commander 147]

ebb

I found a pretty good book on boat electrical systems. It's called Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook. written by Charlie Wing. Charlie writes in a manner that makes a rather complicated subject pretty easy to understand. I don't read many techincal books cover to cover but this one I probably will. I recommend it.

[jshisha]

I have the standard Nissan 6HP 4 stroke outboard. What I have been doing after each use is to pull out the gas line and running the gas dry. I use the outboard just to get in and out of the dock and it would not be unusual for the boat to sit for 2 weeks with no activity.

Is this the right thing to do or should I just shut the motor off and leave the gas line connected?

[Ariel 109]

jshisha

I think it's OK to run the motor dry, although likely unnecessary, it's not going to hurt anything. Many aircraft motors are shut down by cutting the fuel supply.

Ben

[carl291]

I would concur that running the system dry is best. Especially with Ethanol tainted fuel, when the engine will not be used for 14 days.

[SkipperJer]

I have a Johnson Seahorse 6hp motor which I remove from the well every time I leave the boat on its mooring. I'm tiring of the time and effort involved in the mount/dismount routine. Most of my sailing lately has been to take guests out. The delay is taking the fun out of the trip. Others in the Chesapeake area are warning me that leaving the motor in the water will result in the water intake becoming clogged and the motor overheating.

I'd appreciate descriptions of other solutions that are working for Ariel/Commander owners whose boats are in warm brackish water such as the Chesapeake. How close to inboard functionality can I get without risking engine damage? If I see a system that leaves the motor in the water for the entire season and has electric start I'll buy it. Otherwise I'm considering selling this boat and looking for something with an inboard.

Photos help. I think in pictures.
Thanks.

[Crazer]

Eh, I don't know about the intake becoming clogged. I had, over the summer, a Sea Sprite 23 with a 5hp Evinrude (REAL old one) and I would routinely leave it for a month or so when I was moving it up the Hudson and through the Erie Canal. I never had a problem with overheating until I screwed up the oil mixture and toasted the engine. It's amazing how fast that can happen! I left the boat for six weeks in brackish water in Newburgh, NY and when I came back to it, the thing started right up and chugged along for another 200 or so miles. I did have to clean the prop and lower unit but the intake wasn't clogged and she pumped water fine. It's possible that you might get more growth in the Chesapeake but the conditions seem similar to me. I dunno, I'd definitely get more opinions before you sell the boat. And certainly don't take mine as the gospel truth!

Out of curiosity, do you own an Ariel or a Commander? I know there was an Ariel in the DC area with a Seahorse Outboard that was for sale last spring. Red hull. Is she now yours?

[SkipperJer]

It's a Commander.

[jshisha]

I have the standard 4 stroke 6HP Nissan Mercury outboard. I would like to mount a single lever engine throttle / control in the cockpit, but the standard controls are very plastic / modern looking and it would be like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. Does anyone know of any classic looking chrome or bronze single lever controls that would work. I am in a tight slip and it would be very helpful to have the controls

Thanks

Jake

[sinbin]

Here's one for the books. Being the world's worst mechanic, I have been having my 2 stroke outboards professionally maintained according to the book since the late 80's. So, I was completely baffled when my motor died in the harbor after a day sail. After having rowed into the berth, I said the hell with sailing until the next day, when I replaced the plug and the engine fired right up. Unfortunately, I cross threaded the plug and screwed up the cylinder head. The plug that fouled was not stock, so I accused the mechanic of installing a cold plug. He told me it was a hot plug, and I had mixed my gas wrong. I said no way, since I had been mixing 2 stroke gas for over 20 years. Well he replaced the head, and I put that motor in the garage (I have 2), firing it up every 2 weeks.
4 starts later, the plug fouled. WTF! The recommended plug was in there - maybe the mechanic had a point.
So the question is what is a 50 to one mix? It consists of one ounce of oil to fifty of gas i.e. about 2.5 oz oil per gallon. However, I had an unopened bottle of Quicksilver brand outboard motor and an open bottle of West Marine"s oil on which I couldn't read the label. The Quicksilver label says for 50 to one, mix 3 oz per gallon. I followed the instructions and mixed 3 oz of West's oil into my gas and wound up with 2 fouled plugs. So, if you have a 2 stroke, be aware. The mechanic was right and I owe him an apology. 50 to 1 is 50 to 1 and I won't be using the Quicksilver brand again. Furthermore, if I seem confused, it's probably because I used to have a 100 to 1 mix Johnson.

[westwind]

Do any of the 9.9 4 stroke outboard's fit into a 1966 commander motor box?. Need a new motor and they all look VERY large need help

[Bill]

The 6 hp 4-stroke is a large as the space allows. And, 6 hp is adequate. Did you read the Outboard Discussions thread above?

[c_amos]

Do any of the 9.9 4 stroke outboard's fit into a 1966 commander motor box?. Need a new motor and they all look VERY large need help

As bill said, the outboard motor thread has a lot good info. The 9.9 four strokes don't fit without some serious modification. Even if they did fit, you don't want one due to the weight.... These boats really squat by the stern with anything more the 50 or 60 pounds in the stern....

[westwind]

I did look at the search box, but was hoping a new small 4 stroke was out there. I'll look at the 6hp long shaft by merc Does the motor work with a good wind?

[Bill]

I did look at the search box, but was hoping a new small 4 stroke was out there. I'll look at the 6hp long shaft by merc Does the motor work with a good wind?

See the discussion about wind & tide with the 6 hp in the Outboard thread

[sinbin]

You might want to check with Amber Marine in Costa Mesa. He has an inventory of reconditioned 2 stroke motors. He sold me an "85 Evinrude 6 which runs like a clock.

[westwind]

i was talking to my dad about a motor and he said why dont you take the 15hp johnson 1984 long shaft from under the stairs.....WHAT...... i forgot all about it. very little use and not used since 1988. and it weights 18lbs less than my current 1987 9.9 yachtwin. Sent it in for a carb clean and look over, purrs like a kitten. Now what prop do i get? need help on that. Lake macatawa, lake michigan sailing. Not big on going out in high knots yet

[pbryant]

The 6 pitch prop on my 6 HP Nissan works fine. It'll push my Ariel at 3 knots into a 20 knot wind (with ocean swells).

[pbryant]

P.S. Be careful with that 15 HP engine. It's about twice the power you need for anything but head on steaming into a gale. If you run it full throttle in calm conditions, keep an eye on the stern, and when the stern becomes submerged to the point your backstay chainplate is in the water, back off on the power. I suppose it's self limiting to the extent that the outboard powerhead will become submerged and the engine will aspirate water before you sink the boat.

[westwind]

Thanks i know 15hp is too much but its free and will get me through the remainder of then season. I will more likely get the nissan in the spring

[pbryant]

You can't beat that price! And it'll be happy running well below full throttle.

[ebb]

[the following is a quote:]

Two-Stroke Vessel Engines
Facts About Two-Stroke Vessel Engines

Two-stroke engines are not "banned" for use on all waterways in California, nor is there any plan to do so.
Carbureted and electronic-injection two-stroke engines are considered high-emission engines. Generally, these engines were manufactured prior to 1999.
A carburated two-stroke engine can emit up to 25-30% of its fuel unburned into the water or atmosphere, which is why high-emission engines are prohibited on some lakes.
There is no salt-water or river restrictions in California on high-emission two-stroke engines, excluding personal watercraft (vessels such as Jet Skies) bans in some aereas. For example, San Francisco has prohibited personal watrecfart within 1200 feet of its shoreline. See "Local Restrictions" on our web page for a list of lakes.
Direct injection two-stroke engines, made since 1999, are considered clean emission engines and can be used on every body of water in California, with some exceptions not related to emission limits.
A new direct injection two-stroke engine will normally have a label sticker (with 1 to 3 stars) on its engine cover indicating that it meets California Air Resources Board emission regulations for 2001, 2004, and 2008 for vessel engine manufacture.

>Excplanation Of Two-Stroke Vessel Engine Regulations And Restrictions<
>Two-Stroke FAQ<
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I don't believe, haven't researched, obviously could be wrong...
that any "portable" outboard by any manufacturer has
DIRECT INJECTION.



WANTED:

Post1999 Yamaha 8CMHL 2-stroke, 2-cylinder, 8hp, 22.2in long shaft, 50:1 pre-mix
Electric Start (pull option?) Manual Trim & Tilt. Alternator 12V-6Amp (80W)
Dry Weight 62lb

(anybody got one?
Trade straight across for my 12yr old never in the water-unused, high thrust 2-star 8hp, long staft 4-stroke ........
no shipping, it's in San Rafael.)

[ebb]

Scott, like chat with the professor - other readers either have the patience

(or not enuf patience) to read our dichotomies. Traditional Ariels will digest

your description of the back end of the cockpit and OB well clamping plate.


Ebb's whimsey is that a hutch (for lack of a better word) was built over the

lazaret, covering the huge opening and equipped with a slightly smaller

hinged hatch -- meant to hang a Yamaha 8-4 OB. I had to roll the 110lb

motor around just to position it and arrange a tackle just to lift it over the

coaming.

I sold the gaseous monster and removed $$$ from my retirement fund and

told green self it was past time to go electric. Little knowing what a nest of

vipers I'd be unleashing.



REALITY CHECK

Thought long and hard about taking green water over the stern. I could

create drop boards for the hutch, they may be useful to lock up the electric

OB when away from the boat. Now that I think of it, a piece of 3/8"

meranti would be light and perfect. Of course, heavy boots could kick it in.


But when cruising I'll have the way open and the OB well open also. Any

heavy water will have a huge scupper to empty the cockpit. I have been

aware from the beginning that water entering an Ariel can easily sink it.

[Salt water weighs 64lb cube foot. Cockpit full of water up to the bridge

= 750lbs, 1/2 a ton up to the step-over in the c'way.

How high will the water get inside the boat to bring the sheer level with

the stormy sea. Don't know that anybody has figured that out. Not much,

maybe a ton? Nor what kind of pump we'd use to remove it. Or even if

it was possible to move any water out at all! And if I thought to save my

life, what's my life-saving device going to be, with havoc all round, will

I even be able to board it. Currently my tender is a 10ft inflatable canoe!


Alberg drew our hulls to the MORC rule (Midget Ocean Racer Cruiser)

Their slightly extra breadth makes for a very sexy hull, and puts the Ariel/

Commanders at the dawn of wider modern craft. And as delivered from

the Pearson factory, in no way an ocean ready vessel.


And there's another little thing. My well and the cockpit scuppers inches

away from the waterline -- if there's water already in the boat, they won't

drain with much gusto.. They're already holes in our hull. Companionway?

Deck hatches, our large port/windows. Underwater valves.. Take care!

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

I saw a product a few years back at a boat show. The inventor had combined a 12 hp Honda outboard with a Sail Drive lower unit that necessarily included a gasket to block water entrance. The height and over all size of the unit made it look like it might just fit into an Ariel Lazarette locker. Perhaps that installation might have required raising the hatch somewhat, but not to the degree that construction of a "hutch" would be required. The Honda 12 horse OB motor would drive the Ariel at hull speed for sure, but the device would have placed a lot of weight at the aft end of the boat. I don't know if the device ever went into production, but I never saw another one after the first one I saw at that boat show. It seemed like it might work though to keep the water out of the OB well, and with a device of that sort, one would not have to worry about pulling and flushing the OB after using the boat in salt water. Anyway, I thought it had some potential. No reason someone could not do that with an electric motor was well I suppose. By the way, my motor is a Nissan 6 hp and it weights 60 lbs. It drives away boat at 4+ knots in flat water. I use a modified Garhauer lifting davit (as per Myron Spaulding's design as presented in the Ariel Manual.) to lift and lower the motor into and out of the well and to remove the motor from the boat for servicing.

[ebb]

Scott, think your 6hp is about right -- right at the limit for weight aft of the rudder.
Yamaha 110lbs for an 8-4 became ridiculous for me to stomach, Just looked up
Honda OBs and found a 15 at 104lbs. Maybe you can HP-up to an 8 and keep
the weight the same with a modern motor $3400.

I can't deal with petro smells anymore. Kerosene, diesel, gasoline, strong solvents
like toluene acetone are out. Still grudgingly use naptha for decal/tape removal
but non-toxics are appearing. And I use a tiny amount to thin 2-part liquid epoxy
as a first coat sealer. Fossil fuel days are numbered. Expensive high labor lithium
must be on their way out. They're almost fossils by now, we need an efficient, less
labor intensive battery that will last for 20 years. Somebody is working on it!

[ebb]

Second try here. Abrupt erase again, This time itmwasn'y my computer.

Bill, you may hve some kind of time limit set up on posting. It takes me

a l;ongn time to type. You must have a 'clearing' time limit where if a

certain function doesn't happen, like finishing a post and saving it, the

window will automatically clear the window.

I believe this is a sign from a superior force. To hell with it..

[Bill]

Ebb, we have no time-outs, so it's probably your local network again.

[ebb]

Tech was just here, says it's all my fault. (Refer Above)


EPROPULSION VS TORQEEDO
Electric OB motors. Anybody REALLY interested?? I want and need lithium

batteries, instead of lead/acid.. Anybody tell you that Torqeedo batteries are

LiNMC, lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt. Same type that Tesla uses. And I

have just been made aware of this. [see Yachting World,October 2020,

"Lithium boat batteries: Why now is the right time to upgrade your electrics"]


So while I never understood why Torqeedo couldn't produce a descent

electric OB for a 26' sailboat, they were in the forefront as far as batteries.

Tesla batteries have to be replaced after 125,000 miles. Obviously innovation

will occur in this industry, in fact the word is: 3 companies are working on a

battery good for a million miles!! (YachtingWorld).


After I sold the Yamaha 8-4, grudgingly went with T's peeked Cruise4. Never

committed. Then one day found epropulsion. They had only 3 electric OBs.

One called Navy 6.0 with a 9.9HP rating. It had the motor under the cowl up

top. Not in the water with the prop like Torqeedo. Researched. They seemed

to have covered everything and done everything right. The OB looked great.

Contacted the seller, study their website and the Manual. A little time goes by.

I get on an obvious more current page, and I'm looking at a Torqeedo.


But it isn't. It's the new Navy 6.0 2021 model. with a bulbous swelling in front

of the propeller. So I call up the guy and he says, "Oh, that's the new model for

2021", like I shoulduv known. So now we have two electric motors that can be

minutely compared. It is as if epropulsion has consciously designed the outboard

that Toqeedo forgot. (Who thot this was a niche market? And there is a huge

wad of money needed for redesigning, reengineering, recasting a new Navy6.0 )

The whole OB is bigger, not built on the troller Cruise frame. While it looks similar,

2021 Navy 6.0. looks, at least from this computer, more like a real OB. I think it

weighs in 65lb, almost like a 2stroke. But there is something very different:


Torqeedo has spent their R&D time developing a DEEPBLUE line of batteries for

their speed boat platform. BMW has a small Euro electric vehicle whose battery, I

believe was developed by Torqeedo. Could say the crossover is old news. We're

still on the way of a truly useful, less price punishing, battery for the sailboat crowd.

When we look at a marina, hardly anybody is sailing. Every boat has a fossil-fuel

engine, their day is overdue for an electric makeover.. Batteries haven't quite

caught up yet. I want one for my 2003 Honda Element!!!


Stop for now. If you're interested at all in electric OBs and lithium bats, the Yachting

World article is a good read!

[epiphany]

Within the past month or two I saw some reference (seems like it was an Ariel related place...?) to a motor like the Honda/saildrive-enstein, but it was made back in the late 60's/early 70's, used an Evinrude 2 stroke on the top end. Sailing Uma on YouTube have fitted an electric motor with a saildrive type unit, it was/is manufactured that way - and I imagine more pricey than even a well-kitted Ariel without one would be.
I'm selling my Merc 6hp 4strk to a fellow who needs to get a Catalina 30 down to Florida. A friend was given for free a Yamaha 4hp 4strk longshaft earlier this year; he in turn gave it to me. Great friend! (Note to self: get him a good Xmas present...) It's an older model, he was told it had been barely used. When I went to service it the oil was still golden in color, so I think it has been run less than an hour. I'm gonna give it a break-in treatment, and it'll become Katie's aux. The 6hp worked fine up until 20+ kts wind, I think the 4hp will work for someone like me who likes the idea of motorlessness but it too chicken****e to actually go that way. :) And the long-term dependability of Yamahas in saltwater environs is not a factor to be overlooked.
One note on the Yam 4's - of all the years they were made, it seems, there were but 2 years when a carb swap could turn them into a 6hp motor.
Mine is one of those two years, that's the only 'bad' thing about it. :)

[ebb]

EPROPULSION IS CRIPPLED ON THE USA INTERNET

selling and buying is a major activity on the net.
EPROPULSION GETS A FAILING GRADE from ebb ON HOW THEIR PRODUCTS
ARE REPRESENTED on the net and by their vendors.

Now, I've read that epropulsion is the invention of two HongKong University
entrepreneurs.
I don't know what their mission statement is. There seems to be a Torqeedo
connection, and a we can do it better attitude. These small electric outboards
are in a class by themselves. And I'm surprised that there is a competitor out
there that believes there's money to be made in this tight niche market. As I've
said, it's remarkable that an OB already established will suddenly unannounced
completely revamp their main product, the Navy 6.0. The reason was: to make
a better product, to improve not cheapen it. I mean, what else?

The older model had a right angle gear 'box' just before the prop that may have
been a problem -- because that is what they changed by putting the motor in
front of the prop. (like Torqeedo has always had it.)
But with a more versatile and powerful motor, that can both push an 'up to six
ton(!)' sailboat and plane an airboat. Conceptually superior, we are led to believe.
epropulsion makes three electric OBs: a 1.0 (Spirit)3hp - a 3.0 6hp - 6.0 9.9hp.
Navy.. Which they developed first.

The internet sites are sticky, unresponsive, hypish and almost useless. While
some thumbnails of the OB show the new Navy 6.0, last year's is prominent.

Torqeedo and Elco show up uninvited, but the only actual vendor: RJ Nautical
is all over the place. The 'other' vendor (FourSeas) is nowhere to be found, is
it because they aren't in the payola deal with google? No, it's just that they all
seem to use the same incompetent epropulsion feed. The problem is they all
repeat the same epropulsion hype, so user unfriendly it's more like an enigma.

No one's corrected it since I've been around, and my brief association with sales
at FourSeas has been disappointing. No one seems to care that the web presence
of epropulsion is totally useless, negative and unavailable, download is blocked.
WHY the hell why? You would think this would rub off on the product. The shine
is gone for me. Have not found a credible home address to write or phone.

[ Years ago now, I looked into Elco's line of electric OBs. Looked promising. Called
sales and the guy could not go into depth about the OBs, it was like he was
reading from notes. Then I looked at their design. I had already discovered
Parsun OBs, They are Chinese and make every kind of OB including electric, every
fishing boat in the orient is powered by Parsun. On the face of it, we'd think the
motors were foolproof and reliable. AND indeed, that's what Elco was selling, on
the blind face of it, as their own. PARSUN has no viable USA vendor, At that time.. ..
The point is, if you are going to flog your product in the US, you better iron out
all the kinks that turn customers off. Including untrained uninformed unenthusiastic
vendors. Incomplete specs, missing diagrams, nodownload copyrighted websites. ]

They have an accessible 50page Manual to study. An electric motor has no hoses,
exhaust, smell, oil, gasoline -- but an electric OB has a finicky and hugely expensive
dedicated battery system that has many must do's, should do's, don't do's and hoo
doo's required to keep the system happy in a salt environment.
Can't find anybody who has cruised with a Navy 6.0.* Epropulsion is 8 years old.
It should be further along with a kind of marketing friendliness that would reduce
meaningless hype and add transparency and owner or 3rd party detail, like a mag
article, or literate YouTube.
[*nor, for that matter, are there reports of anysailor using a Torqeedo Cruise 4 as
an auxiliary for cruising..]

Advertised as quiet, visited a YouTube farm, where one guy wound-up his Navy6.0
to a definite loud whine. An unpleasant mechanical noise I wouldn't like at a lower
rpms either.. something that needs hearing before buying. Prop noise has to be
louder than motor noise. And near silent when required.

[ebb]

Epropulsion has surfaced (Four Winds, vendor) with the new Navy 6 (9.9hp) motor
in the water. It's a large utilitarian sausage that propels a 11-12" prop. This
vendor has made it possible to download some paper on the accessories. But
There is as yet no Manual for the installation. And the manageable Navy batteries
matched to the Navy 3-6.0 outboards have mysteriously been dropped. Replaced
with standard batteries that range in weight 63lbs-100+lbs-&180lbs! No choice
on the Ariel and the ancient mariner: 60+lbs I can hardly manage and I think
I'm going to need at least 8 of them ($2,000ea) in parallel to power the motor.
The bats are LiPo type, not the newer tesla nickel type. And are packaged in metal
cases rather than plastic, making them heavy.

My problem is ignorance about this electric OB phenomenon, and dealing with a
vendor who has no experience (so far as I am aware) with cruising sailors.
My live contacts are old fossils hooked on fossil fuels, except for one notable Triton
owner who has moved his boat to the Seattle area while he finishes business here,
and his electric motor is inboard.

My feeling is that epropulsion is unable to finesse their American market. One assumes
they must be interested in owning the 10hp niche category they seem to be aimed at.
Somehow we have to trust their expertise in manufacturing electric outboard motors*
and excuse their inability to present their products to the US market. At least the
appearance of transparency has to be present. Into the third month of 2021 without a
companion Manual for the Navy 6.0 is pretty miserable. Something tells me the motor
is a good deal, but the batteries are problematic, and the presentation sucks!

{*They are a new company (8years by now) bourn by a couple young men at Hong
Kong University -- so what's to trust?}

[ebb]

IS IT TIME TO TAKE THE PRO OUT OF e...PULSION?


It's Monday. Thursday it's April Fools.
This thing with ePropulsion (sic) is a bit fishy. And I am too concentrated on the smell.

I have found that ePro has offices all over the world. They make it sound like they have
vendors all over the states. I have found two here on the Westcoast, with a main distributer
in NewJersey. Sent them an email asking specifically for a 2021 Navy 6.0 Manual. They
sent back a link for the 2020 manual.. {When you download, it first prints the complete
manual in German. Then the manual in Chinese. Then the 28pages in English. I did it
last year. Nobody is going cruising with an electric outboard..

The three websites just mentioned still feature pictures and descriptions of their first made
Navy (so called) outboards. But they are last year's models. ePro's smaller (Spirit so called)
motors occupy YouTube. So why bother?

The 2020 Navy 6.0 (9.9hp) was paired with a Navy battery (23.4"x8.23"x11.15"). It has
been totally expurgated from all the literature as if the battery never existed. It rated
3042Wh and they got like $2,000 for it. I thought 4 of these (12168Wh) would be adequate.
The new 2021 motor, direct drive in the water, with hydrogeneration (dragging the unit with
motor off prop out of gear? to push energy back into the bats). With an almost ten year
history on the concept and now completely revampt and housed in saltwater proof IP67
security.. seemed pretty cool. Motor, direct drive, in the water doesn't need elaborate
shaft cooling like the 2020 Navy 6.0 did with the motor up top under the cowl.

The all important battery comes in 3 weights, the lightest is about 63lbs - cost 1,000 dollars.
It's lithium iron phosphate, relatively safe. Power rated at 2048Wh (E40) 48v. I'd need 6
to match the original Navy bats, thinking 12,000Wh was correct cruise backup for the motor.

But there is a rub. The E40 battery comes in a neat stainless steel package: 7.48"Hx16.48"W
x15.35 Deep. The fittings/connections, plug-ins, read-outs, wire connects are all on the
short side, which also has two 'handles' that sort-of double as protectionators. These bats
come with rubber foam mats top and bottom on the square sides.

Last day of March 2021. Just erased a whole bunch of vitriol.
Because I was just assured by FourSeas that the E batteries (and in my case the E40 can be
orientated anyway I choose. I've already complained about the bats cassette player case
style that has the controls on a short side. If I want to have the controls pointing UP (like
an AGM - or any battery since the dawn of the automobile) then it'd need 15 or 16" to stand
on its short side/end.. If they were grouped together, wiring parallel be easy -- don't know
if I have the locker room. We'll see..

4Seas also advised that I need at least 3 E40s to run the Navy 6.0.
Don't know what to expect handling the boat. Whether more backup runtime necessary,
necessary in terms of comfort level. How well regeneration works. How well the SunPower
panels work.

[ebb]

Got an email from MarkBoring in NewJersey , said to be the 'distributor' for ePropulsion
in the States, to expect the 2021 Navy 6.0..

and the Manual for this all new electric outboard..

TO BE HERE MID APRIL.


No wonder the odd silences. They don't have the 2021 models in the States yet.


(next post wants to print smaller than 100)

[ebb]

epropulsion Navy 6.o Evo. is what they call the 2021 version of their
most powerful electric outboard. A few notes.

Looked thru the in-the-water Manual, which is not quite up to date*.
Perhaps there is another coming. I want a hard copy, not available.
Down loading 55 single sheet pages doesn't do it for me. I want an
actual Manual. Assume one comes with the motor in the box!
*New downloadable Manual talks about coolant for the shaft and
gear oil -- believe these are no longer necessary.

There is a lot of careful stuff to learn about the electrics. If learning
curves are bell-shaped, mine has a crack in it.


The Ariel motorwell clamp is about 17-18" from the water surface.
The 30" Navy 6.0L Evo when hung on the clamp-board will put the
top of the 13"D prop 5-6" under, which is about right for the motor
to run and prop not to cavitate. But the Ariel squats, crew aboard or
cruising trim will alter things. I installed a jackplate that can
electrically lower the motor -- but I'm going to remove it, added
weight. And it's a thing.


Here's a new rub: When we first were asking what the OB motor
weight was it was around 65lbs for the Navy 6.0, or so I thought.
Now it turns out the weight of the motor alone, not including the
tiller or steering module is 81 pounds. I've triple checked it! That's
more than I can move around..
This means, of course, once the 6.0 Evo is installed it's not going
to move -- except to tilt.

Three E40 batteries, the minimum to run the motor, weigh 186lbs..and
it would be smart to have 4 bats hooked into the motor, that's 247lbs
Cases are 16.5 x 8.2 x 15.4. (Can be stacked on any side.. the face
side with controls is the 16.5 x 8.2.) Never planned for any battery
stowage to be 15.4 plus wires tall.
NO, the batteries cannot be STACKED, because heat generated wld
be a problem. They can only take 122 degrees F. Which is ridiculous.


3249 for the motor. But the Evo tiller is about 300 extra, and is not
included in the whole weight of the motor
so is the charger, cables, and batteries at $1000 each. Not to mention
the solar panels. etc. It's almost rediculus the weight & expense to be
fossil free.
Going 'global' certainly expensive. There's still Top and Bottom paint
to green-up, no solvents aboard ship. We have natural varnish in
LeTonkinois, but I'm going to paint most of it over in grey & white.
Because the luscious ease of Tonk is erased by the varnish having no
lasting power in the California sun. I can't deal with that.


APPLES VS ORANGES
We have a lot more electric oranges than gas apples, in comparison.
So we have a lot more weight aboard, and a lot more money, and a
lot more to get comfortable with. Getting rid of the petroleum presence
that's the beauty. No longer having that 110lb Yamaha 8-4stroke is
more about the smell than climate change, that IS what it is about.
And the weight. But look at this 81+lb Navy Evo!! What? 25lbs of
copper windings in that sausage? A lot to chew. If we weren't
fossilizing the planet, that loud smoky monster looking purdy good..

AND light-weight lithium bats in heavy stainless steel cases. Bit Nutz.
If I cld find the space for 4 E40 batteries, that if stacked on edge the
4 of them is like having a 250lb football crewman aboard in weight
and mass. And I just heard, the motors won't arrive until August.

Hope the once young and restless university student engineers have
all their ducks in order. Have all my OOPS to deal with, don't want
epropulsion OOPSES all asudden coagulating on a strange lee shore..
OK, you nonagenarians ATTEN HUT!


ePropulsion Hype admits that the Navy 6.0 (the first motor the Hong
Kong University student engineers developed -- but now totally different)
is the backbone of their company -- NOW it's more looking like an
over-engineered Frankenstein monster. In no way does it compare
with the 4-stroke 8HP gas motor I impetuously sold away on craigslist.
I may be forced back into the dark ages of carbon footprints.