things to look for while inspecting

[Dennis Rioux]

Hello,
If all goes according to plan, in a few days I am going to take a look at an Ariel for sale, and I'd like to go into that admittedly unprofessional inspection with a list of things to be on the lookout for. I have built some wooden kayaks and small boats of my own, but the whole big-fiberglass-boat thing is brand new to me (and, yes, 25'7" and 5200 lbs or so is plenty big to me:)). From the main web page of this site I am aware of the strong back, back stay chainplate, and rudder shaft issues. Are there other important known Ariel-specific issues I should be aware of? I know I should check the deck around stanchions and chainplates for soft spots, big ol' cracks in the hull, etc. If I am satisfied myself and if my offer is accepted (and if I can get my intended crew to agree to the purchase :rolleyes:) I will probably get it professionally surveyed, too, but I'd like to be as fully informed as I can be ahead of time. I tried searching the forum, but didn't find any sort of list -- should I join you all in the ranks of happy Ariel owners I will certainly buy the maintenance manual. In the mean time, I would appreciate any and all heads ups you care to share. Thanks a lot.
Dennis

[Bill]

Here is Commander Pete's take:

I really haven’t heard of any problems particular to the Ariel, aside from what is on the website. Of course the boat is getting on 40 years old, and may share some problems common with older boats. The expensive and/or time consuming ones to fix are usually:

springy delaminated deck

brown rigging

old soft sails

worn nonskid

corroded thru hulls/ rudder post

corroded aluminum at foot of mast

leaky deck fittings

humps,depressions or flat spots in the hull from seperated bulkheads

stress cracked gelcoat


The best time to look at a boat is during or just after a rain storm. However, you can usually suspect leaky fittings if they are surrounded with gobs of sealant.

Hiring a surveyor was a good investment. If you take pictures of any suspect areas and post them on the website I'm sure somebody has dealt with the problem already.

Good luck.

[ebb]

Hey Dennis,
Well I think from experience that hiring a surveyor is as difficult as checking out an old boat.

A really knowledgeable friend ( lunch and a beer) I think much more cost effective.

A surveyor is not going to inspect the top of your mast or find out if you have water in your ballast keel. He won't know if there is rot in the composite under the mast or understand why the big windows leak. My surveyor, who called himself Captain, spent most of his time making a list of obsolete junk that was lying around in lockers. And he took a number of photos. He also reported that the hull had blisters, which it didn't. And he recommended I check out the rigging. He didn't recognize that my Ariel had a bastard rudder not did he recognize that the rudder shoe was badly corroded. He didn't know anything about the rudder being sloppy (because the bearing was shot). Nor that the tiller arm bolt was worn.

I think you hire a surveyor to find out if you can still sail the boat. Certainly in my case the guy was useless when it came to specific problems an aging sailboat can have.

If you are a more or less first timer, then having at hand Don Casey's
"Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (International Marine)
is a great asset.

I would take along on inspection something hard to TAP with (like a small hammer rather than a screwdriver handle) - to listen for the dull thud that could be rot in the balsa deck or cabin top.
I would have an awl to poke into the wood beam under the mast and also the tops of the ply bulkheads that anchor the chainplates.
I would have a knife to scrape near fastenings on the mast to check for galvanic corrosion. Of course you will have to deal with the owner on the scraping and poking - but he should be OK with it. If he isn't he's covering up something.



Good Luck!
These are beautyful sailboats.
There are restorers on this site who bring their boats back to original condition.
I believe every aspect of bringing these classic boats forward into the 21st century has been covered in the Manual and this Forum.
You can find no nonsense help with any problem here.
Many personal projects photographed - and ideas recorded
And a lotta fun.:cool:

[mbd]

As a counter point to Capt Ebb's post - if I were Ebb, I wouldn't hire a surveyor either :) - my surveyor did a fantastic and thorough job when he checked out my boat. He took exhaustive pictures and gave me a full report with a CD of the pictures a couple of days after the survey. He more than paid for his fees with my reduced and subsequently accepted offer on the boat. Of course, I've paid for the boat about three times since... :o

Sails are a big expense and often overlooked when buying. The deck core has been covered. Ebb mentioned the rudder. You should also consider the condition of the auxiliary power. Also, a well equipped cruising boat can have tons worth of extra equipment that really adds up fast.

The Ariel is a worthy and beautiful boat!

Good luck and keeps us posted!

[Commander 147]

I have to side with Ebb on this one and I am NOT as knowledgeable as Ebb. I have only hired a surveyor once and it was when I bought my Commander. But my personal experience was that after spending some time studying the manual that I bought prior to inspecting my commander I was more knowledgable about these boats than he was. And even on the things that any surveyor who does regular inspections on a variety of boats should be able to correctly analyze such as blisters and deck rot, my surveyor was off base on the actual situation. And I did not hire the first name in the phone book. I called three marinas in the area where the boat was located and asked for refferances. The guy I hired came up in all three.

The one area that a surveyor can help is to get the price reduced. Many sellers will take the word of a "professional" surveyor over you or your friend. So Buy the manual, study it, inspect the boat for the things mentioned in the manual and if your seller won't lower the price for an issue you discover hire a surveyor to tell him the same thing so he will. Just my humble opinion.

[c_amos]

I second the advice of buying the manual from the association.

The survey is only as good as the surveyor. Some are better then others, but IMHO many are worth little more then the paper the paper they are printed on.

Conjecture, and opinion... one' mans opinion and conjuncture... and tough to know what he knows...

Here is a list of things to consider, it is not Ariel / Commander specific (buy the manual for those things)... but it ought to be a good list to help you look for things. I would recommend printing the thread and taking it with you.

Boat Buying Inspection tips on SailFar.net (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1985.0)

[mbd]

...The one area that a surveyor can help is to get the price reduced. Many sellers will take the word of a "professional" surveyor over you or your friend. ...
This was kind of my point. I suppose you should make the distinction between a "total restoration" boat and a "sail away" boat (according to the owner) as well. A "total restoration" should already be at a very reasonable price - i.e. no surveyor necessary and you know what you're getting into...

But all this will become clear once Dennis posts some pics and info on the boat he's considering. :D

[Dennis Rioux]

Thanks, everybody, for the responses. I didn't know about Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" -- I've got a copy of his book "This Old Boat" out from the library because I have also been considering a decrepit Ensign that needs an absolute ton of work (the tap test reveals more saturated deck core than not :eek:). I am hoping that by spending more up front on this particular Ariel I would end up ahead in the game. But the 3'8" draft is right at the upper limit of the available water at the public mooring area I intend to keep it, so the Ensign at 3'0" would be better in that respect, but the bottom is nice soft mud at least a foot deep. And, so I go, round and round...

I hope I haven't given the impression I am too cheap to buy the manual -- I am supposed to go look at this thing tomorrow if the broker ever calls back, and I wouldn't have time to get it and absorb it. It's a two hour drive one way to take a look, so a lot of back and forth isn't going to happen. After a lot of hemming and hawing, I am pretty much "there" as far as an Ariel is concerned -- this site is an excellent extended advertisement and an excellent resource as I have discovered in my months of lurking. Very convincing. Buying the manual will be my first bit of extra equipment for the boat, I promise.

I will weigh the pros and cons of a survey after I have taken a look at it myself. If my figures are right, a survey would work out to a bit less than 10% of the purchase price, and that might be "recoverable" as Commander 147 points out. I'll hem and haw about that for a while, too, I am sure. I'm not the world's most decisive person for sure. I'll keep you all posted as things progress. Thanks again, you have given me lots of good stuff to start with.

Dennis

[Dennis Rioux]

mbd,

Yeah, I have been dancing around the "reveal" part because I don't want anybody swooping in and getting her before me. :D It really isn't a secret -- the boat has come up in conversation here before back when I started asking questions earlier this summer. It's A-354 Nordlyset (Norwegian for Northern Lights, I believe) up in Sister Bay, WI. On the surface it sure looks to be in "sail away" condition. It's been for sale for well over a year now (inside storage) and there has been a recent reduction in asking price that makes it quite competitive with what I think I would spend fixing up that Ensign I mentioned. Here she is (full listing is on YachtWorld):

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/1935862_1.jpg

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/1935862_4.jpg

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/1935862_14.jpg

I think the sails are older -- the original ad mentioned early 90s but quickly omitted that information. Not necessarily bad depending on how much they've been used. Much looks original and complete which is a big plus for me, the potential novice "big" boat owner. Something funky with the hull where the outboard passes through -- an historical modification, evidently. Not a lot "extra" but we wouldn't be cruising more than an overnight on the big lake we live a quarter mile from (Lake Winnebago -- big mud puddle, 250 square miles of maximum 22' deep water). Now, be nice and give a guy a chance to get his act together, get up there, and make an offer. :)

Dennis

[bill@ariel231]

Cool, a (mostly) unmodified boat in good looking shape. Is that an original aluminum cowl vent on the bow?

[c_amos]

Dennis,


Something funky with the hull where the outboard passes through -- an historical modification, evidently.

Doubt it is anything to worry about. There is a 'plug' some of us have to sail the boat when the outboard it pulled. Some folks have either modified this plug, or made a replacement that can be installed around the outboard when it is in place.

Do a search on 'outboard plug' or 'well plug' and you will see more on it.

Looks like a nice boat, good luck!

[Dennis Rioux]

bill,

I don't know if it is original, but here is a better shot to help you decide (if I have understood correctly the boat part to which you refer :rolleyes:).

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/1935862_8.jpg

To my eye, it is sort of clunky and I'd be inclined to make it go away...

edited to add: nope, not what you were referring to, right? waaay up there on the bow is another, more modest vent of appropriate proportions

c_amos,

Thanks -- it does look like it might pop in and out, doesn't it? And thank you *very* much for that sailfar.net link you posted earlier. I'm reading through the suggestions on that page right now. Good info there.

Dennis

[bill@ariel231]

Actually it is the one way up front that I was thinking about.

Hmmm. it looks like the hatch mounted vent at risk of being removed by the jib sheets when you tack.

[Rico]

I do not know what the asking price is - but it'd be worth an offer even just by what I've seen here... (trying to encourage you!)

It is a OB and looks quite well taken care of... This boat had someone who cared for her... The rudder looks solid too...

I'd check for soft decks, a solid rudder shoe, mast complete & in good shape, and I'd go sailing!!

Best of luck!

[ebb]

She looks great, she looks cared for.
Hope she works out for you.
She looks original, a good sign.

Here's another piece of marina wisdom.
Never hire a surveyor that works out of the broker's office.

I hired mine through whatever surveyor's association there is here in California. Thought I was smart. It obviously soured me on the process. There is no licensing process to become a surveyor that I'm aware of.
You need a surveyor for insurance and some quasi legal issues. And like I was and you are, new to the process - we gotta have a knowledgeable professional who can give us an indepth and complete picture of the boat. Some people are better at it than others.
Maybe worth while to ask what level of inspection the guy provides. Interview prospective surveyors. Is he a powerboat guy mostly, has he inspected classic plastic sailboats - which ones?

I might go to the most active boatyard in the area and ask around. I might even ask the yard manager/master - these guys are realists. You might get an opinion of who in the area is the most respected surveyor.

[Bill]

The yacht is good. Are you good enough for it? :confused:

[Dennis Rioux]

Rico & ebb,

Thanks for the ongoing encouragement and ideas. I have a recommendation from a friend for a well-respected surveyor who is indeed independent of the broker in this case. I've got an appointment to take a look on Saturday morning, so we'll see how things go.


The yacht is good. Are you good enough for it? :confused:
Bill,

I am not sure how to take that statement -- is it a standard challenge to all boat owners (or would-be owners) or something more individually directed? I like high quality, old things -- houses, boats, tools... cars not so much -- and wouldn't be thinking about buying this boat unless I was committed to taking care of it. It really makes me sad to watch this Ensign I have mentioned rotting away outdoors. (Both these boats are my age, so maybe there is something psychological going on here.:rolleyes:) It was you who filled in some history on Nordlyset back a few months in another thread -- it is evident that it has been well taken care of over the years and it gives me some much needed confidence in this decision. Thank you for sharing the information. If I buy it I am going to do my best to continue taking good care of it. I guess I'll leave it at that.

Dennis

[mbd]

Dennis, she's a good looking boat - good luck tomorrow! If you do "jump in", you'll find you get used to the size real quickly, and the more projects you take on, the less intimidating they become.

Although, from your website, it looks like you'll be teaching us a thing or two! An Ariel will seem like sailing a tank after the Penobscot 14 you built - she's absolutely gorgeous! Nicely done! :cool:

[ebb]

If it isn't, it's pretty damn close!:D

[Dennis Rioux]

mbd & ebb,

Thanks. It get's used, I promise, and no longer looks like those photos from launching day. I have been accused of building floating furniture, but at least it gets sat in. That handsome devil who looks like he knows what he is doing holding the boom, by the way, is friend Brad, not yours truly. He convinced me to do the bright interior on that boat -- I still consider him a friend but all subsequent boats shall have nice workboat style painted interiors. :)

Okay, back from Sister Bay after an hour's visit with Nordlyset. Brief analysis: I've got some things to think about. In person, it's a little more "tired" than the original photos led me to believe. I think a lot of people have looked at it over the last couple years judging from all the footprints on deck and broker comments. Pretty sure there are some soft spots around stanchion bases, fittings, and the mast step. Here are some photos I took -- the contrast and saturation are bad due to poor lighting.

Mast support beam deflection I assume? Tabbing pulling away from bulkhead? This is widespread throughout the boat.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/beam.jpg

The mast step itself. Haven't read widely enough to know if this is original.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/maststep.jpg

A backing plate for one of the stanchions. None wiggle on deck too badly. Again, not sure if it is original equipment.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/backingplate.jpg

Keel void is *still* dripping -- I think it has been out of the water at least two years. That was some icky goo pooled on the floor there.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/keelvoid.jpg

Plug plate things. They can be removed from within the lazarette with enough time and gumption -- kind of buried beneath some ply that must act as platform for gas cans.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/plug.jpg

I think the rudder needs some help -- looks like it may have split at some point and been repaired. There didn't seem to be any play in the shaft. The tiller is pretty loose, but that's just the matter of a bolt I suppose.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/rudder.jpg

By the way bill@ariel231, that cowl vent on the bow is a plastic replacement.

Dennis

[bill@ariel231]

She doesn't look that bad actually..

1. several mast beams photographed on this site share a similar curve on the lower edge. If the beam looked like it was rotten or split across the grain, then i'd argue for a replacement. If the construction is like A-231, the beam is held in place by several #14 wood screws from the other side of the bulkhead (hidden by the formica).

2. water in the keel ... pretty common and not terminal (look for the keel void thread)

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=604&highlight=keel+void

3. as for the rudder. I've marked up your photo with a couple lines. the red box outlines the cutout for the inboard version (all rudders and hulls share this feature). outboard versions have a patch over the rudder and a molded fiberglass patch over the prop aperture in the hull. If the cracks are parallel to the yellow line, then you are seeing the planks that form the rudder.

4. the stanchion backing plate is undersized. most have been refit with larger backing plates of plywood (and or thicker stainless).

good luck...;)

[c_amos]

I concur with bill@ariel231, she looks good and I don't see anything to walk away from.

The tabbing on Faith looks exactly like what you see there. I will 'clean it up' some day but it is sound. I have looked at several Ariels in person, and most have some deflection of this beam...

The tabbing is often 'rough' especially around the hull to deck joint. There have been no reports (that I am aware of) any failures on these boats. If you just wanted to make it look pretty, you could add some cloth and fair it in nice... I have done a couple sections just because I was doing other work in the area, but loose no sleep over the tabbing.

Depending on how large the soft spots are around the stanchions, you may not need a full re-core. You won't know until you get in there, but nothing to be afraid of IMHO.

[Tony G]

Dennis

Judging from the Penobscot 14 photos, you would enjoy that Ariel and she would benefit from having an owner like you. Boats of this vintage will always have some issue that needs to be adressed, but as Bill and Craig have stated, everything appears to be about as one should expect. Straight forward repairs. A walk in the park for someone with your abilities.

[ebb]

just went thru here quick, so sorry for repetitions

That is the original mast step. An amazing lamination.

Ebb also has gone on and on about the bloody compression beam - maybe you can find the thread(s) if interested. I found the same condition in A-338 - and found nothing wrong with the beam itself, no rot.

The mast step in A-338 was held on with two mighty screws that went thru the step, thru the deck and into the beam. Those two screws hold the beam in place. From this point on my analysis gets very rant. If you have any specific questions, post them, and I will be happy to chime in with the rest of the crew.

[Dennis Rioux]

Thanks again, everyone, for the feedback and encouragement. Thanks Bill for the markup on the photo -- I never would have come up with that explanation in a million years. Tony, please say hi to Northern MN for me -- I grew up in Saint Cloud and dream of retiring to the north woods someday so I can experience some real winters again. Ebb, I have indeed spent some quality time in the last months on those compression beam posts scattered in various threads here. c_amos, I will have to read some more about the tabbing -- "rough" I can live with, but doesn't this look more like "it ain't connected anymore?" Curable, I am sure given the operations I have seen some of you have done.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/tabbing.jpg

We spent some time looking through some of the gallery pages last night, and we are that much closer to "okay, let's do it." Besides, the girls really do want a boat with a "basement" as the youngest one puts it. At this point, my plan would be to bring the boat home since working at either of the two local yards I could store the boat at is either extremely inconvenient or verboten. This presents its own little set of challenges since my driveway is only 9' wide and I would want to tuck it into a part of my driveway between the house and garage that is a little less than 30' long. Gotta call the boat moving guy to check on the width and maneuverability of his rig and get the manual for those cradle plans. :) In the mean time, I'll try to figure out what we should offer and whether to get it surveyed if we get that far. Thanks again.

Dennis

[vanguard64]

I have e-mailed Dennis to see what he decided to do with this boat. I wonder what the consensus of the members is on what he found wrong with this boat and whether this boat would be a "safe bet" or not to buy. In other words, is this your "typical" Ariel for sale ?
I appreciate the input since I too am looking for an Ariel.
Marcelo

[carl291]

To my inexperienced eye I don't find anything "wrong" with this boat. From working on three Pearson's from this era everything is .... well typical and to be expected.
Loose tabbing seems to always be on the wood side.
The boats with the least amount of deck mounted hardware, ex. lifelines , sail sheet tracts, wiring holes ,pulpits ,pushpits , vents etc. have the driest deck coring. Any hole put in these decks through the years generally lets water in. This all can be fixed and is covered on this site.
If you can accept that repairing anything will make a big mess of your new "old" boat, your halfway there. Also any repair you make will be better than when it was new is the other half.
Everything on these boats is pretty straight forward, no hull liners or sagging interior panels, plastic one of gizmos and such.
You have to find these boats eye pleasing to view both in and out of the water...... especially out of the water if you should drag home a derelict like I have:o
I have one right now and all I plan to do is repair to keep the water out, bottom paint and go sail it. That's what it's about any way.
Good Luck in your search.

[Dennis Rioux]

Hello everyone,

It hasn't been an easy decision by any means, but in just the last couple weeks I have decided to not buy the Ariel. :( I think the consensus here is that the boat has a set of well known problems that can be fixed -- and having delved into the archives pretty deeply over the last months I can say there is definitely good information on how to fix all of them on this site. The association site and everybody who contributes to it fall on the "plus" side of the equation that helps you decide whether or not to take on a project like that.

The brief details that tipped my decision into the negative go like this: I got two quotes for moving the boat to my house where I could work on it before relaunching, both of which were north of a kilobuck after taxes and whatnot. Combined with a likely purchase price in the 3-5 kilobuck range, this started to run into what I consider serious money before I did "thing one" to it. Also, the draft of 3'8" is probably too much for the 3'-4' "thin water" available at the affordable public moorings nearby -- I simply can't afford a slip (at least not until we prove to ourselves as a family unit that this kind of boating is something we want to do enough to justify that). Sad as it may be, those were the biggest reasons and they boil down to the usual damn money money money reason.

On the plus side, I did just buy the Pearson Ensign I mentioned in an earlier post for an affordable entry price of $250, so I will still be with you all in Alberg-designed Pearson Family spirit. A friend will help me move that to my house in the next week or so where I can begin to tackle its rather lengthy list of ills (cracked toe rail, soft decks, rotted mahogany coamings, probably needs an all new interior in the cuddy, etc). Much smaller boat by volume and draft and probably more my "speed" right now.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/ensign/ensign_01.jpg

Oh, and there is also my father-in-law's Thompson runabout we got down last weekend from the garage rafters it had been hanging from for the last 30 years. Needs some keel attention and new paint and varnish at the least.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/runabout/thompson_20.jpg

I'm going to keep lurking here for sure -- perhaps I will convince myself that a side-by-side Pearson Ariel and Pearson Ensign dual restoration is the way to go. ;) By the way, Marcelo, I will be flying down to New Orleans over the holidays to visit my brother -- maybe I could try to bring Nordlyset along for you as checked baggage... 50 pound limit, what 50 pound limit?

Dennis

[vanguard64]

Hi Dennis,
Thanks for your candid response. I agree with you that when you start digging deeper into all the repairs that are needed to return one of these beautiful boats to their former glory it is very overwhelming, and the cost in time, sweat, and money plain scary. I have actually been through this before and know it first hand. I sometimes have to ask myself why I want to go through it again and this creates my indecision. In 1998 I bought a derelict 1964 32ft Pearson Vanguard and spent the next year restoring her. I did half of the job, and the boatyard did the other. I poured $15,000 into her that first year. She was featured in Good Old Boat Magazine in November 2004 and then Katrina took her away 10 months later. These are all great boats but we have to accept their age and what that entails.
I would love to see the pictures of the finished Ensign whenever that may be. Hope you have a great visit to New Orleans. I'll be at the airport waiting for my 50#s of cheese.
Kind regards,
Marcelo

[carl291]

Dennis, very nice, you'll enjoy the ensign. Also it will fit a little better in your driveway.
Here's a photo of a trailer I modified to haul an Electra, (same hull). Let me know if you would like some measurements.
Oh Dennis, the dual restoration wouldn't be novel, Frank and myself are doing the same!! Your very welcome to join this elite club, Tony was a member but I think he sold the Ensign.

[Frenna]

Hmm, since I am thinking about trailer options, I am wondering in the above photo, where did you get those adjustable supports, or are they home made? I do wonder if there should not be some more fore and aft support for them, though.

Thanks

[carl291]

The upright supports with pads came from Sail trailers in Columbus GA. www dot sailtrailers dot com. I think the address is correct , I spoke with Spence, These folks are sailors and can build a very nice trailer also. They also have a video on you tube launching a sailboat off one of their trailers.

It does look spartan compared to some trailers with all types of bracing running everywhere doesn't it? The tubes ar two inch square 1/4 steel, same as what is used on a trailer reciever hitch, it's not going to bend. I may some small tube bracing later if I can find any movement.

The trailer towed great from Macon GA to Hartford CT and back when I picked up this boat. I think the trailer frame would collapse before the uprights bent.

[christopher]

I have been up to see this boat as well. I was very close to buying her, but pulled back. I'm still considering her for the springtime. I thought that the dripping on the floor was from the motor as there was oil running down the shaft and lots of oil containers in the well.

In any case, if I were to purchase I would sail her home about 120 miles to Milwaukee. If the keel void taking on water, would it hurt to leave the keel void problem as is for a season until I had the chance to make proper repairs the following winter?

[bill@ariel231]

Unless you see an obvious break in the fiberglass or a bump from a bondo patch that is ready to come loose the right fix can probably wait till later. Is the bilge glass in goodshape? On A231 a gap in the factory installed glasswork underneath the vee berth was one of several paths for water entry to the keel (any time the boat was hosed down below some water got in the keel).

If the bottom is basically sound you can probably get by with a bit of 3M 5200 around the rudder shoe and the keel strap before tossing her in the water.

The photos are encouraging, she is in far better shape than A231 was when we got her.

Cheers,
bill@ariel231 :)

[Dennis Rioux]

Christopher,

Here is another photo from the starboard side. I am pretty sure it is the keel void issue -- there wasn't any trail of oil that I could follow (at least externally). If you look at the broker photos taken in August 2008 you can see areas of dampness on the floor that look like they are coming from voids.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/ruddershoe.jpg

The sailing it home option seems like a nice one -- I'd've had to portage her around all the non-operational locks on the Fox River between Green Bay and Lake Winnebago. :rolleyes: Good luck.

Dennis

[ebb]

Second what Bill sez. Right-on!

Went back over the thread and didn't pick up anything specific on the encapsulated ballast KEEL VOID.
If for instance the boat hit a rock and cracked the hull and water comes in through the crack, you can still sail the boat and pump the bilge. ( Naturally that depends on the severity of the damage.)
I would guess there are many Commanders and Ariels that are sailing with water in the keel void. This void is the space around the lead that was closed in by Pearson across the top with fiberglass after they lowered the lead into the hole. The lead did not fit exactly, therefor when closed in over the top there is a 'void' on one or both sides of the lead.
If the lead is not totally covered (which is what immobilizes the 2500# chunk) like at the aft end, most if not all the water that gets in will end up in the bilge. If it hasn't been plugged with foam and so forth.
But it is not a problem with the integrity of the hull.
Most owners never do anything about it. and the boat sails on.

Caution. There will always be the boat that has a special problem that can't be seen from a generalist point of view. Don't know that I would take an unknown sailboat on a voyage without checking the hull out on the hard. Eyeball and hammer. Check out the whole rudder too!

If the boat has mushy decks, which comes about from fresh water getting in the balsa core through unprotected fastenings and openings,
THAT is a major problem from a DIY repair standpoint.
But I know of one Ariel with delaminating composite that still sails and will probably keep on sailing until something is done about it!

The deck in the way of the composite is composed of three layers. Top fiber reinforced polyester layer is at least 1/8"/3/16", the endgrain balsa core about 3/8", and the third inside layer which can also vary but is usually thinner than the top. 1/8" frp is quite stiff, so "mushy" is a qualitative word here. There should be no GIVE of any sort anywhere. A healthy deck won't depress when you step on it. In hammer it's a dull thud.
There is balsa in the deck from the bow to the end of the cabin (not sure about the Commander.) The balsa peters out as it approaches the toe rail. A rail stanchion might have fastenings passing through solid glass AND through balsa.
The cabin top is also cored (yes, under the mast) - but not the sides.

Good luck!:cool:

[christopher]

Hey Dennis,

You said you found some soft areas... did it feel soft or did you find it with a hammer?

[Dennis Rioux]

Christopher,

First, let me say right from the get-go I am by no means an expert or even an amateur at this fiberglass boat thing. But, yes, tapping with the handle of a screwdriver right around some of the stanchions I thought I heard the "thunk" instead of the "ring." It seemed pretty localized, and not particularly widespread. Overall, the decks seem to be in pretty good shape, at least in comparison to the Ensign where it seems like I'll be replacing real acreage. The paint was chalky but I suppose this is to be expected. And, of course, I did not ultimately have the Ariel surveyed, so I have no professional assessment to back me up. There was also some crazing of the gel coat in the cockpit area, for what it is worth (the forward part of it -- is the correct term the bridge deck?).

I think the consensus of the others chiming in here is accurate -- Nordlyset is a solid example of an Ariel with some of the well-known aging characteristics of the design. As I noted above, it is more the money involved and the physical size of the boat that is keeping me from jumping in with both feet. I hope the Ensign will keep me from kicking myself in ten years or so for not getting this boat while it was available. Time will tell...

Dennis

[christopher]

Thanks for the insight Dennis. The foredeck area felt good. Those were probably my footprints you saw up there :) I didn't go to that boat very well prepared neither in skill nor equipment. I've since put together a backpack full of supplies for boat shopping :) I did see the crazing you mentioned in the cockpit and around the stanchions.

Those areas in the lower region of the hull certainly seem to point to moisture. I want something I can sail home, park on a mooring for a few months, sail for the season, and begin repairs and refit the following winter. I'm not sure that this is the boat for that plan, but I'm not making any decisions until Feb/March and my mind changes like the wind on what exactly I'm looking for.

I love Ensigns. I learned to sail on them and they are fantastic boats just to beat round in. Definitely post your progress somewhere that I can watch. If you are in search of resources for your restoration, the Milwaukee Community Sailing Center has the largest fleet of Ensigns anywhere (at least 20 of them). Their boatyard guy Jared is very experienced with them and is a great resource for refits of these old Pearsons.

Have fun with her!

[mbd]

...if I were to purchase I would sail her home about 120 miles to Milwaukee. If the keel void taking on water, would it hurt to leave the keel void problem as is for a season until I had the chance to make proper repairs the following winter?
Hi and welcome Christopher. Your plan is exactly what I did when I purchased my boat a few years ago. I had known core issues around the stanchions and bow pulpit, but the boat was still sailable. It was a great motivation during the recore to have done a short cruise and have had a season of sailing and getting to know the boat. (Ultimately, I ended up paying someone to finish it so I could get back into the water sooner.)

FWIW, I suspect I still have the "keel void" issue and plan on addressing it, but in the meantime, I am really enjoying sailing and continue to compile lists of lists of jobs to do when funding allows and time is available to properly tackle them.

These are really great boats to sail!

[Dennis Rioux]

Christopher,

I am pretty sure the Ensign I bought came from the Milwaukee fleet. It came with a bunch of sails from 1972 with references on the sail bags to Milwaukee. At some point in the past it was named Misty and right now it is named Harem with lovely self-adhesive black-on-gold mailbox letters on the transom. Needless to say the name will be changed again despite the potential for ill omens and bad outcomes, otherwise I'll never get my wife and daughters aboard. I'd be too embarrassed to sail it in daylight in any case. (The funny thing is, my friend kept sheep in the field where the boat is now, and the ewes would always congregate under the hull for shade in the summer. The name Harem is written on the cradle and for the longest time I thought it was my friend's idea of a joke...:rolleyes:) Anyway, I'll post photos and rants about this or that aspect of the project on my boats website -- this URL (http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/ensign.html) ought to be stable. Thanks for the information about the Center down there, I'll have to look them up. Who knows, maybe I can pick up a used set of sails when the time comes.

Dennis

[christopher]

Well I won't be buying that Ariel in Sister Bay. I bought another boat.. Bristol 29..

Good luck with the ensign!