'Faith' gets a new composting head

[c_amos]

The facilities aboard Faith have worked just fine. She had the original (1964) Shipmate head... works well, fixed the pump once with part of a leather shoelace... still works. :D

The head sat in the original position, and the intake / discharge seacocks were handy. What was not handy was the diverter valve and large rubberized bladder that would serve as a holding tank.

I do not recall ever messing with the valve, but we always kept the seacocks closed so we were 'legal' in a kind of legal way.... it was a stretch and I never was happy with it.

We looked at the porta-potty route, but can't get into the idea of using our fresh water to flush with. Not too thrilled about dealing with the sloshing slurry either... :eek:


So, I recall Ebb is going with the Airhead... I figure I would do some more research.

I can find no one who has either the Natres way, or the Airhead who is anything but happy with them.

It seems that the Natures way folks may have gotten their start with Air head, and left to develop their own products based on the things folks called in and complained about the Air Head.

I took the plunge and got the Natures head (http://www.natureshead.net/)

http://www.natureshead.net/graphics/Slide2a.jpghttp://www.natureshead.net/graphics/Slide3b.jpghttp://www.natureshead.net/graphics/Slide13a.jpg
I am a cheapskate.

That said, I took the plunge and bought a Nature's way head for Faith.

I have spoken with Larry, at Nature's way for a few months now. I bet I have been his most labor intensive 'pre-purchase' customer to date. ;) He has been very patient with me and I would say that based on the 'feel' of our conversations the company has a higher then average level of customer service.



Some of the reasoning behind this is;

1.) Eliminate the liability of the discharge through-hull. I may use the smaller inlet for something else. My discharge through-hull will 'seep' in fresh water. I would like to get away from the current set up. Interestingly I have never had an issue in Florida (where everyone claims to have trouble) but future travel plans would include some inland waters that may be a bit more picky.

2.) My diverter valve is broken, and I can not see paying the silly price for a decent replacement. I hate this peice of gear, since it serves no real purpose onboard other then to be quasi-legal. I really am looking forward to getting rid of this, and the silly 5 gallon bladder that if I ever filled it with 'product' I would have nightmares about... :P

3.) My venerable 'shipmate' head (circa, 1964) will need maintenance. I am quite sure I could re-hab it into shape, but would still be stuck with the current set up.

4.) I was able to get a 'factory second' head at a substantial discount. If I would buy new hose, diverter, and seacock I would have paid more then I am paying for this one. The 'defects' are that this one has a 'flat' finish (not polished) stainless hinge, and a scratch on the lid. I had been asking for this for some time, and Larry had 3 of them assembled from parts they would not put on full priced heads. He said he had one more available as of this afternoon.

5.) Having monitored those with composting heads I can find no one who has anything bad to say about them. As a matter of fact, there is a company making a high end cruising boat (A Hess drawn cutter) that is installing them as original equipment.

6.) While I like DIY better for most things, I felt the supporting documentation that came with a production unit would be preferable to trying to explain to a boarding party in the middle of the night why my bucket and hose contraption was legal.



Here is a little more from Nature's Way's brochure (PDF)

Quote

1. No holding tank, no pumpouts, no odors, no clogging, no kidding.

2. “The Head” has a unique molded design (with a gray granite color) and incorporates stainless steel components and hardware into a high quality product.

3. This composting toilet is self-contained and waterless.

4. Uses 1½-2 gallons of peat moss in the base for your composting matter.

5. Because of the waterless urine separating design, this unit has extraordinary holding capacity. This could translate into a month usage by a cruising or traveling couple, or perhaps an entire boating or camping season of weekends.

6. “The Head” is very compact and space efficient measuring 13” wide at the base, 17¾” front to rear, and is just under 20” tall.

— Plus! Easy installation in most applications, simply mount brackets to fl oor, vent unit to outside, and hook to 12V power source! (Several options available.)

From the Owner's manal (also PDF)

Quote

NATURE'S HEAD OWNER'S GUIDE
Congratulations on your acquisition of a Nature's Head!

Although the concept of a composting head (toilet) is not a new one, the
unit which you have purchased is the freshest of the new generation of this kind of product.

Nature's Head designers, both sailors with many years of boating experience, and their wives—one a research biologist and one an RN, have used earlier versions of composting toilets on their boats. The concept has been refined and reworked to provide you with a more user friendly product which is aesthetically pleasing, more space-efficient, and a more
affordable alternative to previously offered models.

Your new Nature's Head will provide you with years of worry-free sanitation solutions without the inconvenience of holding tanks, frequent pump-outs, or smelly portable potties.

[c_amos]

It arrived within a couple days, well packaged.

Box looked like it would not fit on the boat;

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHmpu-XOI/AAAAAAAAASY/zALblivyCh4/P9190014.JPG

The head it's self was a tight fit through the companion way;

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHnGdFRgI/AAAAAAAAASc/1cBiDGq0OAA/P9190016.JPG


Another shot... getting it in.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHpIq3eNI/AAAAAAAAASs/uVLjgqW6P_8/s512/P9190020.JPG
Issues;

The base fits on the pad that Pearson put there. The problem is the OEM head is 13" high, and the Natures way is 20". My feet don't touch the ground.

I can either drop the floor, or raise the rest of the platform.

Sure don't want to rip out that floor to find that if I go an inch or 2 lower I loose the width....

Anyone have any suggestions here?

[c_amos]

I like the construction, the hinges are stout and well secured;

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHoI2iIqI/AAAAAAAAASk/JIartgzTE9o/P9190018.JPG

We tried a couple of alternative placement locataions...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHpuiqHhI/AAAAAAAAASw/ICMGnLmBbHU/s512/P9190024.JPG

THey had drawbacks....

So we set it in place, and covered it up with all the gear adrift we could scrounge up to see if it looked at home. :D

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHqNkE5GI/AAAAAAAAAS0/rXHRH8zUPX8/P9190031.JPG

[ebb]

Never seen first hand the Natures Way unit (sounds like a line of supplements or a laxitive!).
Except for the basin seems to be a copy of the AirHead. With the same footprint.
The Airhead is 19" tall. I lowered the V-berth deck to make sure it would fit under a ply filler between the V-berths. And I may have raised the berths a little as well, can't remember.
The Airhead still fits but it is a little more aft. The problem is the stirring crank which sticks out and hits the V-berth side as I have it. Began researching cranks and thought one of those wheel types (McMasterCarr) with a handle on the rim would work. Some have folding handles and would be quite compact. Have to make a decision.

Not enough of me fits on my Airhead's really tiny seat (it's still in the box) and I would willingly swap with a 20" N.W.
The bigger bowl is one hell of an improvement.
Tho I can see that the seat on that one is not all that larger for mine too.
Airhead should have seen this obvious upgrade coming and made a more accommodating throne themselves - instead of inviting competition, and blatant design robbery. The price should be lower as well.
I remember writing to Airhead saying that most head customers would be owners of small boats and would find it easier to fit a composter if it was lower by a couple inches. I think both could be redesigned shorter.

In the meantime,
Could take off the top toilet seat lid and put the plywood that probably will be over it there instead. Maybe loose 1/2".:rolleyes: Could put a rim of foam tape on the plywood to seal the lid if necessary.
I believe air circulation is key to happy composting.

THE VENT!!!
In the V-berth area - where I have to put the Airhead in littlegull - there is no obvious place to run the all important vent.
Put that solar pieplate vent on the foredeck? Where?
Up on the cabin top? Where? My main cabin vent is there: the forehatch.
Out the side of the cabin in some trick vent? That would look BAD. Do those solar vents work vertically?
Do we have to pull the air out with a fan at the top OR can we blow the air up the tube to a tidy little dorade bippie?
How many turns can that vent hose take?
How does one disguise the vent hose snake in a well appointed yacht?:confused:
Any ideas?

[c_amos]

.....
THE VENT!!!
In the V-berth area - where I have to put the Airhead in littlegull - there is no obvious place to run the all important vent.
Put that solar pieplate vent on the foredeck? Where?
Up on the cabin top? Where? My main cabin vent is there: the forehatch.
Out the side of the cabin in some trick vent? That would look BAD. Do those solar vents work vertically?
Do we have to pull the air out with a fan at the top OR can we blow the air up the tube to a tidy little dorade bippie?
How many turns can that vent hose take?
How does one disguise the vent hose snake in a well appointed yacht?:confused:
Any ideas?

I think I have an idea.

I do not like the foredeck, or the cabin top for the little vent. I was thinking that a small vertical dorade box on the inside of the cabin just aft of the port port....

Something like a smallish 4"x6" (?) box, with the outside opening on the bottom (air comes in, water drains out through the same hole). Air goes up and over a baffle and out the bottom of the box. Cover the little hole with a small clamshell (might even use one of the ones that came off of the lazy-rat).

As for the hose connection, have a radiused in tube coming off of the bottom of the dorade box and following the inside of the side deck and down to the area under the shelf... where it can connect to the MFG supplied hose.

Of course that is how I would like to do it, probably end up running the tube directly to the bottom of the dorade box...

[ebb]

Craig, you know you are right of course! Great idea.
The vent exit tube could be on the inside of the cabin with just a couple holes showing on the exterior on the side.
Don't want to spoil that gorgeous molded cabin front with a boil.
And I like the molded tube idea instead of the hose. Can see, since the molded half-round tube going to the dorade under the deck has to be custom, it can be mounted dry and removable giving closer access to the dorade itself in case that has some problems.
Be an interesting project to make a tubular (or half tube) dorade. Like you say it may need some volume to handle water coming in the outer vent hole.

In-line blower, huh?

I'm going to think about it from your standpoint.

[Tony G]

Craig

I must second Ebb's bold title line, way to go!

Way back when Ebb first began his campaign of supplanting the traditional head for a composter the size issue was the stumbling point. A rebuild is undoubtedly in the works. Now it's just a matter of how substantial of a rebuild it will be. Rebuild the shipmate, rebuild the v-berth, rebuild the whole kit and kaboodle...

If I recall correctly (yes, I spelled that phrase out) you use Faith's v-berth as storage (and head) rather than sleeping quarters. So any rebuild you do might as well serve both purposes as best it can. That doesn't sound very fun, inexpensive, convenient (pick any two) for most anyone out there. But if you're going in there you might as well do it up righteous.

Sliding the head aft to the the main bulkhead, much like Geoff did on UHURU, is going to give you the most head room. Of course that is after lowering the sole there the farthest you can and still get the minimum footprint you need for the composter. You will have toe-stubber there just about 2 inches tall and still have to raise the surrounding platform about 2 inches. All off this I'm pretty sure you've considered allready.

So this ends up coming back to you...what changes would you make to Faith's forward compartment if you had to retrofit her to afford a composting head? It seems this may be one of those changes that precipitates a chain of changes. You came to the choice of a composter based on experience and sound reasoning. Now it may be the unfun, expensive, inconvenient (pick all three) task to ever-so-slightly rehab her to become a more perfect fit.

If you could just hold off a year or two I hope to be passing through your neighborhood and I would be more than happy to lend a helping hand.;)

[c_amos]

Thanks for the encouragement guys. ;)

I really like the composting idea. I like it more now that I have removed the couple dozen feet of mildew covered hose... and the dis-fucntional diverter valve... but most of all the rubber holding bladder.

The last picture... the one which was clearly staged (could not possibly have that much random stuff laying around)... it was the result of moving on to the 'next' step.

The V-berth is indeed the garage aboard Faith. The access hole cut into the bunk on the stbd side is packed with 'spares' and 'stuff'. Net screwed into the original oval hole keeps it all in. The topclimber, the sea anchor, all that nice-to-have, but-hate-to-stow gear goes to the V-berth.

I want to shave down the couple of inches of plywood that hangs over the side, and install a drawer there. I also want an enclosed cabinet there... we used plastic storage bins while cruising, but they don't use the space well.

The head really wants to stay on center line IMHO. I Carl was right.

I wish the new unit was about 7" shorter, but it is not. I did talk to Larry about the design, and he told me that the height was a product of the width since the agitator has to rotate to keep the composting happy.

The seated height is not bad WRT the overhead even when all the way fwd. I could probably just fasten it down there, and build a small step in front of it to accommodate a proper 'seating' angle.

I say 'I could' but I would probably not be happy with that. Knowing that it could be lower would bother me. I just wish I could better envision just how much I can drop it there and maintain the width. I have searched both of your threads to see what you found under the head... I am still having trouble figuring it.

I suspect that it will go down and somewhat aft. I hate to loose too much of the depth of the V-berth since it is hard to use the space fwd of the head as it is. Digging through boxes and bags, especally in a rolling anchorage, is no fun. I REALLY like to have a place for everything, and everything in it's place. Digging is no fun, even with lists with all the stuff onboard (product my worlds greatest First Mate).

Glad to have a 'support group' to help me sort through all of this.

Thanks also, for the pictures you took as you worked on your boats. It is nice to have such a great reference.

Faith has

[mbd]

A head upgrade is in my future. I've got a "traditional" head in the basement awaiting installation, and after 2 weekends with a family of 4 and 2 sessions of emptying the porta-potti, I've been mulling over this topic again. :o

So, for this composting head, does the vent hose need to be attached all the time?

How about installing the head on a sliding platform so it could be pushed aside and secured out of the way when not in use. Then it doesn't take up a prominent and permanent spot right in the middle of a nice open interior or an already crowded v-berth area. Or maybe it could be stowed under a chart table or bunk or some other horizontal surface? (A galley counter is just a little too gross for me.)

But with it stowed to the side, the "permanent" vent hose could be attached and run up a bulkhead or the side of the cabin. When needed for business, you could disconnect the vent hose from its permanent placement, slide the head out, and reattach the hose temporarily to the forward hatch opening or one of the opening portals.

Although, I suppose the shape of the hull may prevent you from truly being able to slide the thing out of the way. The middle of the v-berth is the lowest area of the forward portion of the hull.

As for Craig's issue, perhaps he could install "mast mate" type steps in the v-berth and fold them down for secure footing when perched on the throne...

[c_amos]

So, for this composting head, does the vent hose need to be attached all the time?

Only when there is 'compost' in it. I did find someone who fitted an airhead and did not hook up the vent. He said the smell went away a few minutes after 'use'.




How about installing the head on a sliding platform so it could be pushed aside and secured out of the way when not in use. ......

...... install "mast mate" type steps in the v-berth and fold them down for secure footing when perched on the throne...

I will have to look at that, thanks Mike. :D

[ebb]

Rising from the throne is a function of where the overhead hatch is.
And especially where the male standing option is functioning.

One thing I've noticed in round table problem solving here on the estate is
that when one guy is sure he has a solution he will hold on to it until it is in pieces if the others prevail with a different solution.

The cello part in a composer's quartet is endlessly repeatable - but real invention comes with improvisation.
Larry's width to height formula (restriction) obviously is what he came up with or copied
- but somebody will come along with a better, or at least different, design. No doubt about it.
Don't know that a portopottie sized composter is possible.


Having had experience aiming and missing the portolet on San Francisco Bay,
A funnel with a tube going into the unit's bottle could be a real convenience. It could live in a rinsable bag and frequently get dunked to sweeten it.

[mbd]

Having had experience aiming and missing the portolet on San Francisco Bay...
With a crew including an 8 year old who already has bad aim on land, we have a strict "sitting only" policy aboard Sea Glass! :cool:

[ebb]

Natures Head seems to be the predominant composting head at the moment.

I have not found a head to head comparison with the older Airhead yet on the net.
Would be great to see a competent comparison between the two and what improvements if any besides the seat being molded as part of the bowl and its larger size were made to the Natures Head.
How about actual use testing???

Most satisfied owners of small composting heads are couples. And couples with one or two kids. Haven't read anybody regretting the switch. Altho living with a composter has it own list of things to be conscious about. No product with chlorine, for instance, can be used for cleaning the Head. Copious amounts of toilet paper cannot be put IN the Head. It won't compost and It'll fill the chamber very quick. So you'll need a plastic bag for the tissue near the head. Going to need a place for the spray bottle. And you may need a place for the second pee bottle.

google> Composting Head in a Sailboat Update! - J C McDowell and the Family

google the SSCA Discvussion Board
where you are more likely to find people who have experience with onboard composting. The purpose of peat moss is to provide an oxygen environment for aerobic bacteria. Coconut coir is another fiberous material that will do the job and comes compressed into a brick(which you break apart) - takes less space to store than peat. Garden store?

google> [Liveaboard] Was Heads now Composting heads


Seems like nearly everybody made the switch for purely practical and logical reasons.

[Tony G]

Well, Craig, it's a month and some days later. The weather around here is acting way too much like winter and that has driven my mood to the bottom of the abyss. Boat work around here has all but stopped. But on the way down I thought, Hey! I wonder what's happening with Faith's composting head install? That's good _ _ _ _ happening there and it looks to be ahead of the curve and in a direction we're heading in.

It appears most people agree it just seems to make good sense to switch to composting heads on boats like ours. Good, common sense (which doesn't seem to be quite so common anymore). It is another example where breaking away from tradition results in something better-not just another new product to sell, or, buy in my case. So it is with more than just passing interest, Craig, when I ask, "What's up with the crapper, man?":D

[Tony G]

Just read 13 pages about composting heads over on the Cruiser's Forum. It really seems to be the way to go onboard and onshore. A couple of the posts have some numbers and facts regarding water 'usage' and sewage....

I don't know if I have the (?) guts to build my own, but it's been done before!
I have tried to upload a couple more photos of a DIY composter one of the members on the CF built but I can't seem to pull it off. Too bad.

[c_amos]

I am truly dissapointed to report that Faith's Natures Head has been removed and is stting in my dining room as I type this.

No, not for any failure in design or any aspect of the deployment that was overlooked. It has been removed simply because I am unable / not allowed to sand / chip / grind paint & fiberglass and can see no way to make this work without removing the raised step the head sits on.

Here are a couple of pictures of the head installed on the 'step';
6599

Here is another 6600

As you can see, the head it's self fits in there pretty well. I could sit and use it (never did more then 'simulations'). I LIKE the construction, and the hardware. I will say that as much as even a cheepskate like me might complain about the price I think these guys got it right.

Here are the specific problems with a 'drop in' install aboard an Ariel.

1. The height: The seat is 20+" above the raised step provided for the head on the Ariel. This placed my feet just shy of the floor and my head just short of the overhead. A taller person might have reached the floor with his feet, but also found the overhead with his head. Droppiong the raised head platform to the same level as the remainder of the V-Berth sole would fix this. It would also move the head slightly aft since the 'V' of the hull would move aft the lower you go. It would not seem to be difficult work, but messy... too messy for me to do currently. (see this post for details (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2136-Ebb-is-right...-about-a-couple-more-things....)).

2. The Width at the air intake / discharge. In the stock location these inlets line up with the trim at the edge of the v-berth. If the floor were lowered this would resolve in a wonderful way... the vent hose would route under the V-berth nicely.

I will re-visit this solution in the future... when I am better able to work with the necessary materials.

[ebb]

Craig, Find a Harbor Freight store* and get their ocillating cutting tool.
It's a small hand-held corded power tool that has a stepped, dog-legged, straight in vibrating cutter.
There are a variety of other accessories, but the one you're interested in is the offset blade whot has the teeth in front on its leading edge. You just point the blade and you're cutting that little deck out like magic.
These tools throw no dust to speak of, but you might keep a small vac going while cutting inside the V-berth..
It is essentially a one hand tool.

Fein multi-master was the first. Now Rockwell, Portercable, Craftsman, Bosch and others have their version. Fein is $300 plus - with astronomical prices for replacement blades. The imatators are $100 plus. Harbor Freight (can't find their rag just now) probably has the tool for $30.

Imco these dremels-on-steroids are way over-rated as 'multi-function'-tools.
BUT there are two things this kind of cutting tool does that no other tool does:
CUTS STRAIGHT IN WITH A INCH WIDE BLADE.
And since it is a vibrating blade
IT THROWS NO DUST!

You'll take that riser out in no time. You'll be able to pare the riser off along the hull, right at the hull. And you'll be able to cut in through the bottom of your fillets and lift the thing out in one piece. Get a cheapy - and if you like it, get a Rockwell or something if you need to.

There are also cheaper 'universal' blades now in the market (VersaTool) that fit most of these ocillating tools including the Fein, I think. Don't buy the Fein.
What was that? Oh yeah, don't buy the Fein.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
*Find Harbor Freight on the web. Under Power Tools find Multifunction tools. The non-variable-speed goes for $40.
I've never used it. Don't know the quality of their offset blades, you may need extra when cutting frp.
I guess you'll be cutting mostly through plastic along a joint line, so you may get by with what they include in the kit.

[Tony G]

Craig, you have no idea how much I wish I could head on down there and lend a helping hand. Do you think you could supervise a job like that? Or are you the type of person that just has to be in there doing it? Let's put our heads together.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have balked at the price, but nowadays I'm both a cheapskate and broke! Like the water tankage, this might be something I have to build. Who would have ever imagined-toilet envy:confused:

[ebb]

Begun actual fitting of litlgull's Airhead.
Since purchase of the unit it has become an antique.
There is a new Airhead with upgrade connectors of the two main pieces -
and a choice now of household sized seat or the original marine seat.
The bowl hole size under the seat - TEN INCH diameter- has not changed.
The seat inside diameter is a slightly out of round NINE INCHES.
Comtemporary real household seats have roughly the same width hole but often oval forward to a 15" opening
The complete AirHead seat dimensions are about 13 inches round

and including the fairly stiff foam gasket on the bottom of the seat (the lid has a gasket as well of the same material) the whole affair is TWO INCHES TALL.

It is also rather heavy at about four pounds and seems to be composed of whatever old-fashioned household toilet seats were made out of - some kind of compressed wood maybe? But it is a BEMIS unit and nicely designed. It's what you accept as highend proper seating for any toilet. In this case, it's barely adequate for a midget, imco.

Geoff Trott who introduces himself on the phone as the Airhead designer has done some important upgrades, including the ' household' version of the seat. Still very small in the pics on the Airhead site but a bit elongated. Actual household seats are longer, not necessarily wider in the hole, but wider in the seating frame and more friendly.

Somewhere I read (was it here?) that the Nature's Way composter came about when some former workers at Airhead who made upgrade suggestions for the Airhead were ignored.
So they began their own company. Haven't seen the composter yet - haven't sat on it - but it looks pretty small in the seat also, but larger and more innovative than the original Airhead.
The seat is molded into bowl with a hinged lid that cups the seat so that it adds little to its height.

This is to say, then, that the Nature's Way toilet can not be shortened much at all by altering the seat arrangement. (Nature'sWay is also an inch taller overall than the AirHead.)
But the original Airhead has TWO INCHES to play with. If you are going to have seat and lid obviously you won't get a two inch downsize in the composter's height. Gonna need something to sit on.

I lowered the deck in the V-berth to make sure the Airhead would fit under any aisle covering needed to convert the area into bunking. Trying out the Airhead AFTER the remodel, I discovered I hadn't lowered the deck enough!!! Jimminy Cricket!

Taking the seat/lid unit off and thinking that something thinner like plywood could be used, I'm trying a number of possibilities, including thinner gasketing.


One of the things that could be suggested to the Airhead designer is a less schmaltzy seat unit molded out of polyethylene to get at least a ONE INCH reduction in height - and still have a seat that would appeal to gentler bottoms. Given that employees left to right wrongs with a whole new company, that's not going to happen, Tho maybe there is a ready made in a Bemis toilet seat catalog.

Two other things:
There are twin airvent holes for the hose too far toward the side of the bowl. With the composter pushed up into the V-berth aisle, it is not possible to access the either hole with the hose. A new 1 3/4" hole has to be drilled further around toward the back of the bowl. I'm going to check with Geoffry on this and also ask him about plugging in the original holes. There was no mention of plugging the extra hole, it was left open when I got the toilet.
Maybe it was left open on purpose. Be easy enough to close holes in the bowl with poprivets.


CRAIG,
have you come up with an idea and photos we can see of your INTERIOR DORADE? It's the ONLY solution! But where you put it is a problem, imco. For me, given the open interior design I committed to, an obvious lump in the rise of the cabin side is a problem and head-banger.
For starters imagine a shoe box attached to the cabin inside, either in front of or behind the little opening port. I "see" it on the starboard side.

'WHAT'S THAT HOSE THING YOU GOT HANGING FROM THE ROOF IN THE FRONT CABIN?'
The Airhead came with a tiny square box fan and a scupper-like plastic fitting that the fan can be squeezed into.
One end reduces to hose size, the other has a substantial flange that normally would be used to attach the fitting overhead to a cowl or Nicro piepan vent.
But it could attach instead to the shoebox in a low position on the forward side of the shoebox. The hose could be partial hidden.
The dorade has a baffle down the middle inside that rises 3/4s of the way to the top where there is enough space to allow the fan air to turn down a small distance to the exit hole in the cabin side - with the clamshell, ON DECK you'd see the chromed clamshell about half way up the side of the cabin either just in front of or just behind the opening port.
Drill scupper holes thru the bottom of the side with the exit hole to let any spray water back out. Don't know if the fan is strong enough for all this distance and friction?
What do you think?

Another problem when pushing the compoiser forward in the V-berth is that you soon run out of cranking space for the tumbler.
I thought of everything complicated, including a 5" diameter wheel with a folding revolving handle. Not enough room!
On the Airhead site Geoff has a better solution. Simply use a rachet wrench with a 3/8" adapter - that fits into the same hole as the crank - for the handle, Perfect for close quarters there. Of course they cost $35 or more.
Smaller problems: the opening lever on the right side of the bowl is really close to my Viberth side. It has to be moved down and up one-quarter circle to open and close the pee sluice.
Another problem is with the screw-in holding knobs for the composter on the side of the container. On the Airhead we have to screw the small knobs into smaller inserts. Has to be done 'blind' as it will very difficult to get visual accuracy and fingers in there.
Thanks for considering this!!

[Tony G]

Ebb, what a PIA. There, it had to be said.

Why don't you just DIY your own seat and lid? There is no doubt in my mind that you could produce a design that is ten times better than what you got when you opened up the box. And I'd bet it would look like it was there all along.

Are the levers and cranks something that could be bent? (guess I should go to the AH gallery and look around) It is tight up front when you start putting furniture back in. Operating anything mechanical in those confines has got to be like scratching yourself while driving. Seems simple enough at first glance but....

After Craig's bold and daring first jump and then Capt. K show all expose, I decided to try my hand a stitch and glueing a 'Nature's Way-like' composter.

If you head on over to Sven Yrvind's site you can get a glimps at his internal dorade boxes. And his hull makes ours look like mega-yacht!

[ebb]

yeah Tony,
I'm going to put in a outhouse privy seat that spans between the V-berths - a hole in the plywood
I'm pretty committed to taking off the toilet seat and lid.
So the sitting seat will be gasketed like the original
And there will be another gasketed lid that will close the composter and span the bunk space.
Thinner seat and lid will allow the toilet to be raised - and that mean it can be pushed forward for leg room.

Behind the composter I'll have another lid into a space for the peatmoss or coir. And the spray bottle. Don't know about the bumwad storage and I won't have room for a spare pee bottle.
On a singlehanded that seems ridiculous anyway.

How much room you have for attachment knobs, the sluice lever, and the tumbler crank are a function of how much room is needed to sit on the throne. I have to get the composter crammed forward in the V space to get enough room for my knees which are right at the bulkhead, step down.


I'm going to make up a model of Craig's interior vent.
If I use the vent fan housing supplied by Airhead the dorade will have to stick out at least 5".
If that is the place to mount the fan, that is a substantail intrusion on the nice curve of the fore-cabin.
The location may be better forward or all the way back by the main bulkhead and semi-hidden there. We'll see. Longer hose, a bigger fan and more DC may be needed.
Isn't the correct concept that it is more efficient to push air rather than draw it out?

Yrvind's 'dorades' seem to me to be the wrong way round, upside down!
The "U' could easily fill with water and get below.

The standard dorade principle is correct, altho the boxes are often designed badly.
Stevens designed the original dorades to create a venturi to draw the air into the accommodation.
'So dimensions are important.

[Tony G]

I'm going to make up a model of Craig's interior vent.

??? Do you have some secret photos you're not sharing,Ebb?

[c_amos]

??? Do you have some secret photos you're not sharing,Ebb?

No, he has a description from me as we spoke about it over breakfast.... I am amazed he was able to understand what I was describing....

Ok, so imagine a cylinder. Now, half it and seal it to the bulkhead just aft of the opening port light in the V-berth. You have an inlet hole at the base of this cylinder going through the cabin top (vertical) then there is a baffle that runs top to bottom... with an opening on the top... now the exit is on the bottom with a pipe to receive the 1" flexible hose that the Natures Head wants to draw air in from.

You could finish the installation with a clamshell or louvered grate on the outside... or you would be able to just leave it open and it would be hardly noticeable.

If this is too hard to picture, let me know and I will try harder. ;)

[ebb]

Craig,
sure I can see what you say.
But don't know if I can say what you see.
And a vertical dorade is a wonderful exercise in thinking out loud.

I called up Geoff Trott at Airhead again.
Probably because he was so accessible when I called last week.
He answered on his cell that he was in a meeting and to call back in two hours.
He called me! Two hours later.
I had a question about where the air comes from in the tank that we do all this bruhaha to vent?
My antique Airhead has two holes symmetrically placed in its quarters. Placing the compioster further up in the V-berth area cancels out their ability to take a hose.
I will have to drill a new hole further around the back for my vent.
It's certainly easy enough to poprivet the factory holes closed.
And that was my question..... Was the second hole left open intentionally?
It is.
And making a new hole for the vent hose is OK. But leave one hole open.

Second question for Geoff was..... length of vent hose
and whether the fan should pull the air or push the air out.
Airhead has actually tested this and finds the best location for the fan is at the end of the run,
where the system hose exits. Vents by pulling.

Now the third query..... I explained how difficult it was to find that exit in the Ariel.
Where would you put the cowl outside..... on the deck or the cabin?
Tried to explain Craig's internal vertical dorade idea to the inventor of the composter.
which I still think is an elegant solution!

So Geoff says,
you ready for this?
vent the damn composter into your chain locker.
That's what he has done on his own boat.

We all have, or should have a chain locker that is at least somewhat separate from the accommodation. right?
There's probably the old Pearson cowl vent still there or plastic one by now.
litlgull has the original foredeck vent hole glassed over because the skipper wants a pieplate vent in the Bomarhatch that is there now.
So mount the tiny fan in it's special ftting vertically on the chainlocker bulkhead!!!


There you go, vent the pooper into the forepeak.
which has or should have SOME ventilation going on.
That is enough to satisfy your compost system.
One less thru-hole in the ole girl.
What do you think?

[ebb]

Craig, remember that grade school exercise where we sat in a circle and whispered a "rumor" in one direction and were amazed how it ended when it came around?

Same thing here with your internal vent.
I see the half pipe extending lower than the deck.
Then you can mount the hose/fan fixture to the flat side of the halfpipe below the deck.
The hose would point toward the hull and be virtually unseen.

With a little extra futzing the bottom on the halfpipe could be closed off with a piece of the same pipe to get a radius that would complement the circular fan housing.
In other words the bottom of the extended halfpipe would be round as well,
except that the unseen side facing the hull would be flat to mount the fan. It would be a mitre joint. That means that you'd only have a halfpipe half circle to mount the the fan to.
Maybe the next size up pipe? Or maybe the 6" pipe could be cut not in half but, say, 5/8s or 3/4?
The muffin fan sits inside its 'bell' housing that has a screw in fitting for the hose at one end
and a flange at the 'exit' side with drilled holes that is 5" diameter.
So I can 'see' your six inch pvc halfpipe as being perfect for this fixture. Don't know what Nature's Head has supplied for the fan housing, but must be similar.

Have to be particularly careful in designing this to make sure no water gets back down to the fan.
Could extend the fan exit into the pipe-dorade with a hose extension inside the half pipe that goes up the interior baffle to where the baffle stops
and hope the air continues on its way out the other side to the cabinside exit.



In other words the dorade would have a bottom to it that is slightly above the level of the boat's deck.
The fan would have a right angle extension that would go through this floor - on the dry side.
This right angle pipe fitting could have a hose (or pipe) extension that went up as far as the top of the baffle that separates the dry from the wet sides. Theory would be that the hose extension would never allow water to get down into the dry side.
Some always will, therefor a couple tiny weep holes could be drilled thru the baffle to the wet side at floor level in the dorade so that water won't collect in there.
There is also the scupper hole in the bottom of the wet side that drains through the cabin-side to the deck. You'd see it underneath the clam shell cowl.
The hose extension would be added insurance so that if water gets into the dry side it would have to fill to the top of the baffle before it went down the extension to the fan and the interior.

All words of course.
Needs a hard model, and some thought given to maintenance and whether the dorade is permanently installed to the cabin side.
Since this is a closed vent system, not an open hatch vent, why not make one on the other side for wet weather cabin ventilation, in the V-berth area which really can use another vent? This one brings fresh air in.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________
This vertical dorade is like a butterscotch lollipop to my mind!
Now I'm wondering if there is a way for a half-pipe vent to be on the OUTSIDE of the cabin?
Horrors!