paranoia subsides

[Tony G]

For all you that 'felt my pain and anguish' as I worried about delamination in 113's headliner take respite in the fact that the healing has begun (without the aid of heavy medication). After reading that the headliner is not an integral component of the inner 'skin' and only bonded at the edges I felt much better. But so much bow and flexing I thought. The photos I posted earlier just didn't do that huge lump in the aft cabin bulkhead justice. So upon destruction of that perfectly good cabin I snapped a few more pics of just what was lurking in there.

[Tony G]

...and another

[Tony G]

It was only when I got to this point that I realized the top of the ice box was scribed to match the bow of the cabin liner and... sure enough so was the box surrounding the ELECTRICAL SERVICE PANEL! Wow! Was I relieved.

[Tony G]

With the headliner delemma eatin' my dust I just had to find another mild crisis to help maintain some sort of stability in my paltry existence. And here it is! Yeah, what am I going to do about it? The support posts for the mast step beam were replaced by the p.o. and are in good shape. However, that is serious rot in the main bulkhead. Currently I'm thinking about digging out the bad, sealing the area with epoxy and then building it up to 3/4" again and maybe even tabbing it in. Still open to suggestions with the exception of just leaving it and covering it with something.

[Tony G]

If that was the RIGHT side then surely there's a LEFT side to match.(I just HAD to)

[Tony G]

I just took a picture of these because it seems we all have a common illness of wanting to look at each others 'boat stuff' and because not everybody out there has one of these. 113's mast step beam has considerable deflection (1/4") in it even without the mast stepped. The mast step and the core under it was replaced by the p.o.. When I picked her up the mast was stepped and the beam had same amount of deflection in it under static load. So I guess this is just mindless banter!

[Tony G]

This is a forward shot of my major accomplishment for that day.

[Tony G]

And here's the galley. Okay, maybe I lied when I said it was all without medication(note the 'remains' peeking out of the galley sink). Next time I'll have to remember to tidy up a bit before taking any pics. Also not the dumb end of the cable operated spedo lying on the counter next to the pump. I haven't seen anything like that since my 5-speed, 20" sidewinder with banana seat sissy bar and spider handle bars! (circa 1972) And of course the first aid kit (also circa 1972)

[Tony G]

Hey! I see my status has changed from ariel newbie to pearson professional...just for ripping a boat apart? Folks, you just gotta love this country.

[Bill]

Nice cover on the chain locker.:)

[commanderpete]

Some nice progress there.

How bad is that bulkhead? Very punky? I think its pretty thick plywood. I probably wouldn't replace it unless I could kick a hole through it.

I've used this stuff called CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer). Its very expensive. But, you can make your own penetrating epoxy sealer by mixing epoxy with 10% xylene. Brush it on a few times.

Congratulations on becoming a Pearson Professional.

I thought I would have a new title by now. Instead, it says "Check out my high post count" I'm supposed to be proud of that? Makes me sound like an internet weirdo instead of a salty sailor with a beard and peg leg aarrrggghh

I thought Steve was ahead of me anyway. He disappeared and took half his posts with him. Hey Steve, where you at?

[Tony G]

The plywood is 3/4" there (uh-originally) and it looks pretty bad but as with most things it's probably not THAT bad. I've ony picked at it 'surgically' with my handy, dandy pocket knife for a couple minutes because I was afraid to: 1)open up another can of worms. 2)expand the job even farther. 3)know the truth. You pick your answere! I agree with you when you say don't replace it. The sealer idea is a good candidate for this instance. I'm sitting on 10 gal. of epoxy right now so that'll likely be my weapon of choice! Would you happen to know if that formula is ten percent by volume or weight? Maybe for sealing it really wouldn't matter that much unless it 'effects a retardation of the terminal curing of the epoxy'. HA! Pearson Professional, it's such a heady feeling. Seriously though, I'll probably get a chance to work on her tomorrow and then I'll know more. I'm looking forward to finishing the destruction phase so I can start working with mock ups of the galley and salon or saloon as I like to say. As far as Steve goes, who knows, I think he was a submariner for a while so it wouldn't be unlikely for one of those guys to just bug out and disappear for a couple of days or however long it takes.

[Mike Goodwin]

That CPES is mostly thinners , we had 20 gal. or more in the shop I worked in a few years back . We mixed up 36oz and were promptly sidetracked by an emergency . When we got back to it the kicked off epoxy 'plug ' in the container was only 10oz if memory serves me correctly . We had it tested and indeed it was mostly thinners ( a bunch of the 'tones' and alcohols ) .
That makes it the most expensive thinners you can buy .

fgci.com makes a penetrating epoxy for @ $31 per gal , they also have a G-10 or G-12 epoxy thinner with which you can cut it even further , although fgci does not endorse such action .

I have used both and both work , but I think CPES is too thin and too pricey , I still use fgci and will be today on the old mast step for Commander 105 for Robert.
That special thinner from fgci is a blend of 'tones' & alcohols and works with any epoxy , it is @ $10 gal .

Mike G

[commanderpete]

Here is where I got the idea about the penetrating epoxy

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

You could sand/grind away the real bad wood. Then mix up a batch of sealer and brush it on until it won't accept any more(have another area clean and ready in case you need to get rid of any leftovers. I've been spreading this stuff all over bare wood)

I would give it a day or so to make sure all the solvent has evaporated. Clean it up and rough it up. Then you could build up the area with alternating layers of cloth and mat. Three layers of each might give you about a 1/4 inch.

I bought my fiberglass fabric by mail order. When I ran out, I found some at Home Depot. The cloth was thin but the mat was thick. The mat soaks up prodigious amounts of epoxy.

Have fun.

[SailorLiz]

Hi Tony,

just thought I would tell you that with rot, just sealing it with epoxy does not kill the spores. It will still rot underneath. My husband & I ae currently restoring a wooden mariner 40' ketch. It has some rot in the cabin sides. We are totally rebuilding those with new marine plywood. But in the cabin, there is a nice piece of mahogany trim that runs the whole length of the cabin. In order for us to replace it, we would have to tear out the bulkheads, etc. We decided it is trim and not part of the structure to try and "save" it. So before the epoxy, you need to kill the fungus (amoung us). Here is a web site with the chemicals formula and directions. http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html
I've included a picture of the "cooking" process.
;p

[commanderpete]

Some good stuff there from Mike and Liz.

It looks like your boat might have had a bunch of water standing in it for a period of time.

[Tony G]

Yeah, thanks Mike and Liz. I'll check into it more thouroughly. by the way C-Pete, she couldn't have had water standing in her for a while because the p.o. told me himself that he never had a DROP of water in the bilge! I gotta go, I'm laughing so hard I think I've wet myself!

[Mike Goodwin]

Liz,
Dave Carnell is a friend and a great guy , his system works . I have used it to arrest rot until full repairs could be made which in some cases were years later .
BTW , he says you are throwing your money with Smith's or CPES .

Mike

[Tony G]

It doesn't look good. Comander Pete, we may have to lower our standards because I think I could kick a hole in it (the bulkhead) if I kick low enough. After I took this pic I decided to do a little policing and square away the area before I jump in. (read I still don't know exactly what I'm going to do with this mess!)

[commanderpete]

First thing, buy more beer.

[Tony G]

Pete
bought much beer-I've decided its all gotta come out-exorcise!

[Theis]

Tony:

Your bulkhead may be too far gone, but I used Git Rot (one lot of it) to fill in the forward bulkhead on the starboard side, where it was badly rotted. Fortunately the outer vaneers were largely intact, so as the Git Rot penetrated (it is very liquid) it was held between the two vaneers. Where it was not solid, I used masking tape to cover up the bad stuff. It seems to have done the job to the best of my knowledge.

[Mike Goodwin]

You guys should save your money from Git -Rot .
Ever figure out how much a gallon costs ?
Makes WEST Sys. look cheap .
Any epoxy can be made to penetrate ;
1st wash the wood with white vinegar , it kills rot and mildew spores , is cheap, non-toxic and smells good .
2nd , wash or inject antifreeze to infected areas , not as cheap ,is toxic & no real odor .
3rd , set up fans to dry treated areas .
4th, now take WEST , SYS-3 , FGCI or any good epoxy that has a choice of hardners , and choose a slow cure hardner regardless of temperature .
Penetration is a factor of viscosity and the delay of cure .
There are thinners made for deluting epoxy ( how do you think Git-Rot and Smiths are made ), I like T-12 from fgci.com , but success can be had with denatured alcohol .
It doesn't take much either ,2 to 3 oz. per qt. mix works for me .
I have had great success with fgci.com , their 1:1 penetrating epoxy is only $65 for 2 gallons and needs no further thinning , it is about like Git-Rot.
Smith's on the other hand is very thin and very expensive .
One of my ex-partners ,in a boatshop , likes it , but then he likes to sniff glue too .
Only good use for Smiths that I found , was to seal ply surfaces before cutting , but fgci.com's did the same much cheaper .

[ebb]

Great bunch of tips, Mike.

I've used Smith's CPES nearly since it was first made to seal ferro-concrete hulls. It may soak in deeper than other stuff including DIY formulations but I doubt it. It does soak in to actual rot very well but it doesn't get hard. I had it blush on me at times as well. For a sealer, make yer own.

They now make a kit for this-ole-house rot repair that includes a lightweight epoxy goop filler The one secret ingredient it has is alcohol which is in there to chase water/moisture. And I never got GITROT to work either - repair as hard as a screwdriver handle they used to claim, never happened for me. Works good in a cup.

The white vinegar trick is real choice because if you want to kill the rot only water has any chance of getting to the spores deep in the infected wood, no epoxy no matter how thin. Of course if you can completely encapsulate the repair in epoxy you'll probably arrest any further rot.

IMCO thinned epoxy repair of rot is a last resort. Digging the stuff out totally and filling with epoxy mishmsh or wood - or replacing the piece - is the best way to go. Capt. Tony's conundrum should be sawsalled and replaced. Yup!

[Theis]

That answers my question about Git Rot. I used a lot of it and hated it every time. Makes one hell of a mess and as commented, never did seem to dry hard. It is good to know I wasn't the only one - and the stuff is outrageously expensive. However, regardless, the concept of the repair I suggested, with another epoxy, should work, if the stuff can be contained, such as by the outer vaneer or a piece of tape.

[Tony G]

Git rot-no
Git rid-yes
:D

[Tony G]

Thanks for all of the input. It seems the bulkhead should go. My new question is how rigid are these hulls? Has anyone removed the main bulkhead without supporting the hull form/shape from th outside? I really don't think it will be a problem but a couple of the books I've beem reading talk about tabbing in the structural bulkheads before removing the hull from the mold. I don't think the mold we got here is exactly what they're talking about! These are strong little boats but I thought I should seek the knowledge and experience of you all. After how many rednecks have died after saying, "Hey, watch this!"

[Theis]

Don't know, but my thoughts are "don't take a chance", "Why take a chance?", What do you do if you take a chance and are wrong?""What am I saving by taking a chance?". In other words the thoughts all lead to a common conclusion. Then there is also the axiom "If it can't go wrong it will". I wonder if Murphy will step into this discussion with his thoughts or maybe he will sit on the sidelines and laugh.

[Bill]

Take a look at Ebb's Photo Gallery . . .He's removed and replaced all the internal bulkheads. Nothing bad has happened . . You might also go to his profile and send him an E-mail with you question.