Convert to All Rope Halyards *help*

[jojito]

Hi,

I have a ton of 3/8" line I bought when BW went out of business and would like to replace my old SS wire/rope halyards with all rope.

What size block can you recommend for an all-rope jib halyard? I have the skinny block made for 1/8" SS cable, and I'd like to install a modern 3/8" block in place. Any cautions, etc. you have for someone switching these blocks when going all-rope? How strong of a block will I need? Any special tools for removal/install?

Same question for the main halyard, though I'm afraid I know the answer. Can I use 3/8" rope in place of the SS cable as the main halyard? I know the sheave is made for SS rigging, but I couldn't tell from reading previous posts if rope would fit/operate through the masthead without problems. I'd obviously like to avoid taking the masthead apart; but I wan't to do it right... Using the rope I already own would be nice and could save me $ (as long as I don't need to spend a lot making the conversion).

Thanks in advance - this is a great forum!

- Denny

[bill@ariel231]

Denny,

all of A-231's halyards are 3/8th's line.

The blocks for the jib and spinnaker on A-231 are a garhauer (#25 series sized for 3/8th line), nothing unique there but i recommend a swiveling block for the jib and spinnaker (by the way, any good brand works here. Harken, Schaefer and even old FICO blocks also appear on periwinkle).

As for the main halyard, there is plenty of room in the mast head for 3/8th line with no modifications.

good luck,
bill@ariel231:)

[jojito]

Hey Bill, thanks! My topping lift is also the old wooden block - I guess I should replace that too while I am up there...

So does the main halyard simply "rest" in a groove inside the masthead? Or is there an actual pulley for the main halyard?

I ask because I'd like to run the new main halyard before I rig up a bosuns chair. I'm thinking of cutting the wire and duct taping the new 3/8" end-to-end, and pulling it through the masthead. Of course, if that doesn't work, I loose my last line up the mast

Hence my anxiety.:o

[bill@ariel231]

Denny
The mast head has a large diameter sheave that rotates on the same bolt that holds the shrouds in place at the mast head.

This is the halyard you would want to use with a bosun's chair. The forum has seen a couple mast head castings with some significant wear and fatigue on these pages, and for that reason i wouldn't trust life and limb to any other halyards until i have had the mast head in my hands for a thorough inspection.

A word of caution on using tape alone to swap the halyard. I have found tape will jam in the block and often separate when you use an old halyard to pull a new one thru. a better practice is to sew the bitter ends together with a half-dozen passes of whipping twine and use a minimum of tape to smooth out the bump. Much less chance of loosing a halyard with this method.

good luck,
bill@ariel231

ps. the bitter ends should be joined as shown below (before the tape is added):

[jojito]

Thanks Bill. That's a nice sketch to show what you mean; we all understand the repercussions of a lost "duct tape whip."

My concern with whipping 2 lines together is I'll be replacing SS cable with 3/8" rope. That's why my original question was about fitting 3/8" rope through the masthead (and over the sheave).

Here is a sketch of my masthead (as I understand it). I'm going to replace the jib block as you recommended - that part I'm OK with. I'll have to switch that out by hand since I'm replacing the block anyhow...

But to pull new 3/8" through the masthead I think I need to cut the SS and use that, since I don't currently have 3/8" running through over the sheave.

man, I can't wait to get this rigging back in order... Thanks again Bill.

- Denny

[ebb]

I found really bad corrosion under the curved stainless plate that is attached over the masthead sheeve. It seems common enough fitting to have been supplied by Pearson. The corrosion was under the plate and extensive enough so that all screws holding it on were NOT. When the white powder was cleaned up all the aluminum from the sheeve slot to the masthead fitting was gone!

I'm using a bent on aluminum plate over my questionable damage repair applied with machine screws over rubber. And I will be attaching the jib halyard shackle to the masthead fitting. Just enough room.
The masthead fitting has to be very strongly attached to add another halyard!

The hardworking 12" bolt hole was not originally lined and showed the hole elongating enough to see it. I'm not sure what the fix is here. Maybe bill can advise, please!!??


All mast thru-bolts should be compression lined. The bolts should pass through aluminum pipe. The pipe usually is drilled to fit the mast - which is a considerably larger hole. (And consequently a larger bearing surface.) Though sometimes people will inset the upper shroud/mainsail sheeve hole since it is reachable when the masthead is removed. This would mean that the sheeve would have to have a larger diameter hole and oilite bearing. I don't know who's done this. Aluminum TUBE might have a diameter that an off-the-shelf oilite bearing could be found for. This is time and money.

However a similar curved repair plate as above could be fitted and screwed on that would cover the distorted sheeve bolt holes and be drilled to the bolt size. It would increase the mast diameter there making a slightly longer bolt necessary. I would change out all bolts in a mast upgrade to 316. Found a badly corroded bolt in the spreader socket where imco compression tubes MUST be fitted.
No compression liner tubes were fitted in the original factory set-up.

Bill, please advise.

[bill@ariel231]

Your scketch is correct.

By the way, your stainless cable is likely spiced to something like 3/8th. That is the end that I propose whipping together. alternatively, splicing your new 3/8ths line to the old cable can also work.

[jojito]

That's true Bill - but I don't think I can pull the splice through the masthead... Or, at least, I hadn't considered that an option.

Ebb, I don't know about the plate you speak of - I'm still having a difficult time visualizing the inside of the mast. You said not to add on any more halyards, but I only plan on replacing (and running) the jib hy, the main hy, and the top lift. That should be OK right?

I'm going from worried to confident to terrified. I know I shouldn't be sailing with this old equipment though - just too dangerous.

[ebb]

There has been a plate added over the top of the big mainsail halyard sheave slot to take the jib halyard shackle. Mast photos in the Forum here have shown this fitting.

Do not haul yourself aloft on any block hanging from any plate at the masthead.
Do not haul yourself aloft by using any jib or staysail halyard.
Not until it's been thoroly checked out.

As bill points out:
The only safe way to get up the mast is by using the big mainsail sheave.
And I personally would only go up there with new 1/2' dacron line. No splices.
Not only that I would probably go up ONLY with two new lines. One as a safety. And for that you'd need a secure block and/or shackle up there.

[bill@ariel231]

Ebb & Denny

(1) My masthead does not have the curved stainless plate you described (although i have seen some Pearson 26's with that sort of mast head) maybe it is a late hull number issue or a repair (hey Mike does A-414 have one?)

(2) as for the bolt hole...any elongation implies some wear from either the sheave having bound itself to the bolt OR the shrouds worked the bolt over time. If there is more elongation than you want to deal with, i supose a backing plate is easy enough to fashon (knock on wood A-231 has no corrosion or elongation to fix in her mast head). As for the sheave, i take my mast apart every 5 years or so to grease up the mast head sheave (I am due this coming season).

(3) our mast sections are overkill for the ariel. for the sort of coastal crusing i do, i've never seen a need to sleeve the bolts at the spreaders. that may well be a different call for Ebb's boat that is likely to spend more time in blue water. The skin on our mast section is 3/16s or so and is common to much larger boats in the pearson line. I've seen other boats with much lighter rigs that will flex when you step on them. I have never worried about bending an Ariel or Commander rig short of backing a truck over one.

(4) i've made a lot of trips up my mast and larger masts on 3/8ths line. just check the working load for the line. make sure it is a large multiple of your weight (8x or 10x) and backup your line with another halyard. Ebb is spot on.. don't trust a shackle or a splice, tie the halyard to your mast ladder, bosuns chair or climbing gear.

don't worry. have fun up there.
:)

[commanderpete]

(
don't worry. have fun up there.
:)

Yeah...just don't drop a tool on somebody's head :)

I like to rig a tail line to a bag in case you need something up there. The ground crew can put it in the bag for you to pull up.

There are some pictures of the masthead in this thread and scattered elsewhere on the site

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=995

[ebb]

Rico #11 on that site (Masthead Sheave) has a couple great shots of the accursed jib halyard plate - that ate the front of 338's mast.

It looks like the masthead fitting above has just enough room to cross drill a 5/16" hole for a Wichard wide shackle or a clevis pin to take a shackle for the halyard.

IS that a good idea to you guys......?

Why wasn't it done originally?

[mrgnstrn]

What kind of 3/8ths rope?

Are you sure it's low-stretch enough?

I had a similar problem when switching to all-rope on my C&C.

I found an answer in some of the modern hi-tech stuff. it lets you downsize the diameter with low strech. I used endura braid (with a spectra core) for my main and jib, but probably should have used vectran instead.

regardless, it was small enough diameter that I didn't have to chop off the top 2' of mast and reweld a new mast box up there! :eek:

-m

[jojito]

What kind of 3/8ths rope?

Are you sure it's low-stretch enough?

-m

Frankly, I'm not sure. It is Samson XLS 3/8"

http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SAM456024

I'm going to try and get my way up the mast this weekend and figure it out. It's starting to feel overwhelming at this point and I need to get back to basics and re-inventory my running rigging. If you can't tell, I'm new to sailing. And even though I did effectively sail her "home" from Annapolis, I'd like to ensure the safety of this vessel before I go nuts. (I know how to sail, BTW - but still green).

Right now I'm focusing on an April launch with a safe & worthy boat. I'm going to need to singlehand - I just can't generate much interest from friends and family - I'm OK with that. I don't have much invested to this point and have a wonderful 26' sailboat with endless possibilities; and an endless list of improvements :)

Thanks for all the responses. I'm going to replace the jib block and switch to an all rope jib halyard. Then, I'm going to have to try and pull new 3/8" rope through the masthead from the deck; which you guys say is OK (using 3/8" rope through the masthead)? If I can do those two things I gain a lot of safety and confidence; I can get rid of the old SS halyards and shackles; and I *think* I can run the halyards to the rear deck (for singlehanding)... OK, I'm getting ahead of myself, but you get the idea.

I can't stop thinking about all this *grunt* - not to mention trying to figure out how to get myself up the mast!

[bill@ariel231]

I'm using the equivalent line from NE Ropes as halyards for the Main, Jib, Spinnaker and Topping lift. NE Ropes 3/8th STA-SET has the same performance numbers. I've never felt it was "to stretchy" for the short rig on the Ariel.

By contrast, my tuesday night ride in the summer is an old 40' IOR boat with a 65' mast. She is setup with NE Ropes T-900 (7/16th") for the halyards. Even with the higher priced line, stretch is noticable (a 2200 sq.ft. spinnaker will do that). For the sailing we do on the Ariel, it would have been overkill.

[mrgnstrn]

Frankly, I'm not sure. It is Samson XLS 3/8"

http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SAM456024

I'm going to try and get my way up the mast this weekend and figure it out. It's starting to feel overwhelming at this point and I need to get back to basics and re-inventory my running rigging. If you can't tell, I'm new to sailing. And even though I did effectively sail her "home" from Annapolis, I'd like to ensure the safety of this vessel before I go nuts. (I know how to sail, BTW - but still green).

Right now I'm focusing on an April launch with a safe & worthy boat. I'm going to need to singlehand - I just can't generate much interest from friends and family - I'm OK with that. I don't have much invested to this point and have a wonderful 26' sailboat with endless possibilities; and an endless list of improvements :)

Thanks for all the responses. I'm going to replace the jib block and switch to an all rope jib halyard. Then, I'm going to have to try and pull new 3/8" rope through the masthead from the deck; which you guys say is OK (using 3/8" rope through the masthead)? If I can do those two things I gain a lot of safety and confidence; I can get rid of the old SS halyards and shackles; and I *think* I can run the halyards to the rear deck (for singlehanding)... OK, I'm getting ahead of myself, but you get the idea.

I can't stop thinking about all this *grunt* - not to mention trying to figure out how to get myself up the mast!

As Bill said above, XLS is fine for your application.
As to getting up the mast...look into getting a set of those web stairs. They have slugs you put in the mast, pull it to the top with one of the halyards, and work on the other. I have (and like) the "Mast Mate".