Mast step discussions

[commanderpete]

The plywood mast step on my boat was a bit delaminated so I figured I would replace it

I had one milled out of solid teak following the plan in the Manual (p. 166). The factory drawing is for a step 1" thick at the front, tapering to 13/16" at the back. It's basically flat.

The project didn't turn out as hoped for two reasons:

a) I probably should have used plywood since the solid teak developed a crack;

b) The old mast step was about 3/4" thicker in the front than the new one. This small difference meant that my furler adjustment had to be lengthened. But, even with the furler and backstay maxed out, my furler is still a little loose.

I'm starting to think the Ariel and Commander had different mast steps. The few pictures I've seen of other boats show an Ariel with a flat mast step and the Commander with one that is thicker (about 1 3/4" in the front tapering to 3/4" in the back)

Perhaps the Commander mast was supposed to be raked back a little to account for some difference in weight distribution on the boats.

I'm thinking of going back to the old mast step, coating it with epoxy and cloth and then painting it.

Can anyone tell me what their mast step looks like? Flat or thick in the front?

I have some pictures but I'm having trouble posting them (file too large)

[S.Airing]

I replaced mine with solid mahogany in93,never have had any problems,I still have the old one .Do you want a picture?It will be a few days if you want one.

[commanderpete]

maybe this will work

[commanderpete]

Here's another view of the two mast steps side by side, showing the back side

[commanderpete]

Steve,

I believe I saw on one of your pictures that your mast step is basically flat.

I'm wondering if they used a different step on the Commander, or possibly they changed the design for both boats at one point. The factory drawing in the Manual has no date on it.

Either that or my boat was a special one design "Tall Rig" model:p

[S.Airing]

I tried to blow up a good shot of my mast step but could not.After I had the solid mahogany step made I soaked it in water for a few days,it was flat too ,I then screwed it down in place and let the sun beat on it all winter.The wet soft wood bends.It contoured to the deck,then I sealed it up with varnish before I resteped the mast.

[commanderpete]

hmmmm....that was a good idea. I tried to sand the bottom so it fit the camber of the deck. Not sure why it cracked, maybe it was those two coins I put under the step for luck. l used two coins for extra luck.

The crack probably wouldnt bother me if it weren't for the rigging problem.

I had bedded the step down with 3M 4200 figuring it would be there permanently. It almost was :Ugh:

Here's a top view

[French]

I have been wanting to take my mast down and reseal the leak that is happening there. I kept forgetting to check the manuel about the rigging tighting.Since I'm here my question is 1. what are you guys using to set the torque if at all? Claw foot on a torque wrench? 2. Is this a two or more person operation?

[S.Airing]

I just stick a screw driver in the turnbuckle and turn it,check the tension with a tension gage.Just do it evenly .

[Bill]

A bit of caution here. Use 2 screwdrivers -- one for the turnbuckle barrel and one for the toggle. Hold the toggel and twist the barrel to adjust. Otherwise, you may twist the shroud. Not recommended:p

[French]

Thanks for the info.

So is this mast heavy that it needs more than two people? It seems like it would be a bit much for one.
So two to lift and one to secure? or...?

[S.Airing]

I had mine removed by the yard with a lift,but I did move it around alone,its not heavy but ackward.I helped put a mast back on a Alberg 30 with 3 people and a rigged up hoist.I dont think I would atempt this alone,not that its hard but its easy for it to get away from you.I would use at least 3.Is your rigging original,you might want to replace it while the mast is off.

[Bill]

Ah, the old mast R&R! We did that -- once. On the Pacific Coast, masts remain stepped for years and years, so it's really an occasion when one is taken down.

In our case, the removal was no big deal. The marina had a hoist that was (at low tide) positioned high enough to get a strap around the mast just below the spreaders. Getting the mast back was the real challenge. It took four -- maybe five -- of us in what appeard to the casual viewer to be a true Chinese Fire Drill;p

That was about 16 years ago. I now use a rigger to replace the shrouds. He just climbs the mast, measures the shrouds, has the new ones cut and then replaces them one at a time without the mast being stepped off the boat. All I need to do is write the check:p

[S.Airing]

We on the east coast leave our mast on also,we just pull our boats for the winter due to the snow and the water freezing.I only took mine off to replace the mast step,install a pvc wire harness,rewire the mast and replace the shrouds.

[S.Airing]

Commanderpete,have you gotten your mast step taken care of? You left us hanging on this one. By the way have you finished the interior yet?I want to see your fancey curtains.

[commanderpete]

I never did hear from any Commander owners as to what their mast step looked like. So, I'm proceeding with the original plan.

I took the original delaminated mast step (which I replaced two years ago) and put a few layers of fiberglass on it. It still needs to be cleaned up and shaped. I have to make sure the bottom fits the camber of the deck nicely.

I'll paint it before installation so it looks nice.

[commanderpete]

I think the mast steps on the Commander and Ariel were different. On the Commander, the mast step sits on a sloping portion of the cabin top. By building up the front of the mast step, the surface for the mast base will be level (possibly).

[commanderpete]

It looks a little cloudy because I put a coat of epoxy with silica on it.

The back end had been mushed down because of the delamination. I built that up a little. I glassed in my two lucky 1965 coins there.

Hope this works.

I should have left well enough alone.

[drm901]

In the recent newsletter, the article talked about simply fixing the void under the plywood deck mast step. In my article in the previous newsletter, that is what I recommended. I had a major void in the balsa core under the mast step. Filling that with West Systems epoxy solved 90% of my problem.

I suggest before you assume the problem is the strong back, you literally do some digging first - into the deck core to see if that is the root of your problem. That fix is significantly faster & easier than replacing the strong back.

The other way to look for the root problem is to take the pressure off strong back by unstepping your mast (ideally) and see if the strong back is bowing.

Just a suggestion! I know it worked for me.

[Brent]

Here's the strongback on #66. There is a piece of wood screwed to it with three steel screws, now very rusted.

Suggestions for removing the screws and the wood?

Also, what about the glimmer of light at the upper left? There appears to be a gap here, but I am not sure if that is "normal" or not. Should I be concerned about the strongback if it has not been loaded in over 10 years?

[Brent]

Here's a closer look at one of those screws...

[ebb]

Trash it

Let me amend that. Take it off. Trash it. It's awful. Trash it.
(assuming of course you have the mast off the boat)
3 iron screws do not make a strongback.

If your beam on the other side is rotton and you are RESTORING my oak pieces are all in good shape and you can have them.

But you'd be better off refitting in fresh live wood

[ebb]

Hey Mr B, you gotta go thru all this good stuff here and the Manual, You'll find plenty of info on the compression beam and strongback. If you have a problem here IMHO you have no choice but to remove the mast to relieve the pressure on the coachroof. You have to find out what degree of a problem you have. Or as I personally discovered maybe you don't if you're lucky and it's just some shims you need.

You might find it all in the ARCHIVE FORUM.:rolleyes:

[drm901]

Based on the picture, I agree the strong back needs to be replaced. Here is a picture of a "new and improved" mast step. I figure if you are going to pull it off, put a better one down.

This distributes the load over a greater area, and also allows you to move your blocks so they aren't thru-bolted - and leak.

[Brendan Watson]

Has anyone changed the mast step on their boat? I re-made the pad
step pad on mine about 5 years ago and have had no problem
with it. My intrest in changing the original set-up is to see if I
can find and fit a robust mast step that incorporates a tabernacle.
Not the cheapie jobs that can be seen on various boats, but an
honest , strong, stainless, collection of thoughtfull metal that
would improve the load carrying ability of the mast step area
and, by changing the bolt configuration enable me to raise and
lower the mast with one or two other people without gougeing
up the cabin top. I've had the mast down a couple of times and
I'm tired of paying what amounts to about a thousand dollars
an hour for a fifteen minite job.

If anyone has any any ideas about hardware I would appreciate
the tip. Also any ideas on stepping and un-stepping the
Commander /Ariel mast would be most appreciated. How about
a town dock on the western part of Long Island Sound with a
free gin pole? Thanks, B. Commander #215

[Bill]

The manual has plans for a mast tabernacle. Also, Scott Galloway in Santa Cruze, CA may have what you are looking for. He might post a photo. Give him a hail:

scottg@solopublications.com

[Brendan Watson]

Thanks Bill

I'm sending for the manual today and I e-mailed Scott.

[Bogle]

I have no experience with stepping masts, but I ran across some products by DwyerMast that may be appropriate.

http://www.dwyermast.com/hinges.htm

[Scott Galloway]

Brandon and Bill,

Regarding photos of a stainless steel mast base adapted for a tabernacled Pearson Ariel, please see the web site discussed below. I will endeavor to send two photos to the forum, but there are more on my web site.

I have posted a number of photos on my Ariel photo page. That page is subordinate to my primary Pearson Ariel web page listed in the member's list on this forum. My Ariel page is one of the feature pages on "This Sailing Page" which I edit on the web. Other feature pages are provided on The Marieholm 26 and IF Boat, the Lapworth Gladiator page, and a Columbia related page.

The URL for the Ariel photo page is:

http://www.solopublications.com/sailarip.htm

I need to work on the format for that page, since the sheer number of photos on the photo page make the page slow to load, but you will find photos there of the mast step on the tabernacled Pearson Ariel "Augustine", hull #330. The photos also show a recent adaptation that utilizes two 316 stainles steel plates on either side of the mast to permit attachment of turning blocks to lead the boom vang, downhaul, halyards etc back to the cockpit.

By the way, if you have the patience to let all of the photos on the page load, you will also see:

1. The rather unconventional stanchion-less lifeline system that I designed and installed last summer.

2. A jack line system and boarding ladder system for single handers, which I designed and installed.

3. Gene Roberts and Myron Spaulding's wonderful adaptation of the Garhauer lifting davit for the Pearson Ariel motor well, which I installed on "Augustine", based on the Ariel Manual and my discussions with Gene.

4. A mess of interior and exterior photos including my first "at sea" photos taken in September and October 2002 after a yearlong restoration project on Augustine.

As you will seem, I have some work left to do yet, but I managed to squeeze in 27 sailing days between the Labor Day inaugural sail and Thanksgiving when winter storms filled the harbor channel with sand.

[Tony G]

Scott
Nice web site! Did you recently expand it or was I just missing it before? Did you modify your backstay or any of the standing rigging to facilitate your tabernacle addition? Also what's the 'wrinkle' with the stainless brackets/flanges on the forward hatch? And just one more-how many hands does it take to step your mast using the tabernacle? Thanks for the pics, Tony G.

ps nice to see a painted mast.....looks sharp

[Tony G]

Disregard that forward hatch statment-upon further review I've found the errors of my ways:D

[Brendan Watson]

Thanks Scott!
AWESOME SITE!!!
Cheers, B.
Commander #215

[Scott Galloway]

Tony,

I added to the site after completing my rehabilitation project. The site remains a work in progress. As I said earlier, loading time is a problem.

The Garhauer lifting davit is a one-person operation. The tabernacle is likewise. Last fall, I sailed single handed about 60 percent of the time, and often returned to the harbor after dark.

Since I must pass beneath a bridge with a height of around 21 feet, I must lower the mast each time I pass under the bridge in either direction, so that means rigging the boom guys, and releasing the aft lower shrouds and backstay twice on each sail. On the way out I do that at the dock, and then I reattach the backstay, remove the boom guys and reattach the aft lower shrouds as the boat, assisted by a knotted bungee cord strapped to the tiller, motors out of the harbor channel amid cross traffic, while I deal with the rigging.

On the way into the harbor, I have to drop and secure the sails, and then once again install the boom guys, detach the aft lower shrouds, and remove the backstay.

I have not photographed the boom guys, but I added two adaptations to the customary tabernacle running rigging design. Firstly, my permanently installed lifelines are set up so that the lower lifeline runs from a pad eye at the forward edge of the boarding step to the pivot point on the upper shroud, thereby eliminating the need for a separate bridle to stabilize that pivot point. Secondly I made my boom guy up of a single length of line, and left a loop in the center, such that clips on the each end attach to the upper shroud pivot point, and two additional clips attach to a strap on the aft end of the boom. The aforementioned runs loop is between the two clips that are attached to the aft end of the boom. The loop hangs down from the boom, and a clip at the center of that loop secures to a pad eye in the center of the bulkhead at the aft end of the cockpit right where the manufacturer's nameplate and boat number were originally installed. This loop is essentially a fixed-length second mainsheet. It serves as added insurance that my mast is not going to fall forward if someone inadvertently releases the main before I am ready to lower the mast. I release the clip at the center of that loop just before I lower the mast.

So in any case, with a new Garhauer mainsheet 4:1 block set-up (the light blocks with the ball bearings) and a bad back, I can easily drop and raise the mast in a tabernacle single hand when under power. I originally bought a dual action 4:1 / 8:1 block. That made lifting the mast even easier, and I may use it from time to time. But you only really need the 8:1 ratio for the first ten vertical feet as the mast is raised, and you have one heck of a lot of line on the deck when you are done. That is not a fatal flaw, but that dual action block also spills a lot of line in the cockpit during a jibe. Also it is very much easier to control one line in lowering the mast as that one line runs between your fingers, than it is to control two such lines, particularly after dark when the lines are wet with dew. So after using the 4:1 / 8:1 mainsheet for a month, I switched to a straight 4:1.

One last thing should be mentioned. If you intend to use your tabernacle system to step the mast, or work on the mast head, be sure to raise your mast pivot point high enough off the deck so that the mast will clear the forward hatch as it approaches the horizontal. My mast is mounted to a thin stainless steel mast step, and the pivot point is very close to the deck. I am able to reach the masthead main sheave from a stepladder if I first remove the forward hatch cover and then lower the mast, but it would be very difficult to unstep the mast even then, because the masthead is still about ten feet above the dock. Nonetheless by removing my hatch cover I was able to lower my mast far enough to free up my frozen masthead mainsheet sheave, and replace my wind vane. Still, it is a bit precarious standing on the top step on a five-foot stepladder on a sometimes less-than-stable dock.

Regarding that painted mast, my mast paint job is not all that sweet a situation. A prior owner painted the mast with a corrosion-proof paint that proved to react poorly under UV Light. The paint is decaying into an irritating fine powder that stains the sail cover. As a result I have not replaced the rather worn sail cover. Unfortunately I will have to take the mast down to bare metal before repainting. The upper part of the mast is practically there already…Oh well, maybe this summer, and then again maybe next summer, or…

The photo attached slows the section of the lifeline that functions as a bridle for the tabernacle.

[Scott Galloway]

This photo shows the mast base including the stainless steel piece that I added to facilitate running the lines back to the cockpit. Note the height of the mast pivot point. This is too close to the deck if you are going to lower the mast all the way to the bow pulpit (because the forward hatch cover will be in the way), but then again, maybe you don't want to do that anyway.

If you do raise the mast base pivot point, you will also have to raise the upper shroud pivot point to the same elevation above sea level.

[Mike Goodwin]

I'd move to another marina on the otherside of the bridge !

[Scott Galloway]

Tony,

And by the way, yes I did modify my backstay to break it at the approximate height of the boom so that I could attach a pelican hook to a bail at the end of the boom. That placed the tensioning device at chest level, which I like because it can be a real pain to have to reach over the raised motor hatch to tension the backstay under power. However, I had to devise a special wrench to be able to tension the backstay without unwinding the lower section of the wire. The wrench was made from hardware store parts and cost me less than ten dollars in total.

You can see the bottom part of the tensioning device and my Garhauer4:1 / 8:1 dual-action mainsheet block in this photo. A pelican hook attached the top portion of the backstay to this tensioning device.

[Brendan Watson]

Scott, Thinking of you , underway, in traffic, slipping under a bridge, alone, raising your
lowered rig, securing it and hoisting sail intrests me. That you do it twice every time you
go sailing blows my mind.

I really never considered lowering the mast forward. Cool. Now I'm trying to get the idea.
You use the boom as a gin-pole. There are guys that are attached to the boom, or the aft
lowers? I think you said the aft-lowers. What do you use to connect/disconnect the backstay
and lowers. How do you re-tension the rig? When the boom gets nearer the perpendicular
does it need a pair of guys as well. Do you use a crutch of any kind to take the load off the tabernacle?
I would like to hear more about this process. I was thinking about shipping the mast basically for the winter.
To be able to raise and lower on a whim opens up new waterways and eliminates climbing the mast
and paying someone to take it down. To do so is to make the boats rig eminently more managable,
and the economics more reasonable. Now, the tabernacle hardware did you make it yourself ? It looks
alot more thought out than store-bought. If so would you mind shareing your specs? Did you
modify the mast foot?

Dude, we gotta talk!

In the Meantime,
Hearty Cheers, B.
Commander #215

[Scott Galloway]

Brendan,

The local tabernacle rig as commonly executed here consists of the following elements:

1. Your mast step is modified by replacing a fixed mast step, with a stainless steel plate with a riser on each side of the mast. This riser is also stainless steel, and may either be welded onto the flat plate, or may be integral to the plate, in which case, the plate is bent upwards on both the port and starboard side of the mast to form the riser. A hole is drilled through these two risers, and a matching hole through the mast. Generally, a wooden plug is inserted in the mast base, and the front edge of this plug and the front edge of the mast base are beveled to permit the mast to rotate forward. Finally a stainless steel bolt is inserted through the matching holes in the mast and risers. A nut secures this bolt.

On my boat, Ariel #330, "Augustine", the previous owners made this modification, by having the mast base plate and risers made up by a local vendor. An additional flange was added, which curved upwards at a forty-five degree angle from the base past the risers. On each side of the mast, his flange was drilled with four holes to permit the attachment of blocks.

Unfortunately this flange is so low that any lines run back to the cockpit from blocks shackled to the flange run foul by abrading against the top lip of the raised portion of the trunk cabin. To prevent abrasion, I designed the extension plates shown in the photo above to which the mast base turning blocks are shackled.

2. The backstay is broken at either the deck or at the height of the boom by use of a quick release pin or a pelican hook. Use of a pelican hook is preferred because a pelican is stronger and safer in my opinion than a quick release pin. My last boat used a quick release pin. Quick release pins are quick but they don't give me a great sense of confidence.

3. Both aft lower shrouds are broken, usually above the turnbuckle, and reattached with pelican hooks. Don't use those pelican hooks designed for lifelines. Simple strong pelican hooks can be cut from stainless steel, and can be manufactured easily by any machine shop stocking the grade and weight of steel that you want to use. It is not practical to slacken and tighten the aft lower shroud turnbuckles each time you use the tabernacle rig, so you will have to sail with aft lowers that are loose enough to detach and reattach without loosening the turnbuckle. The good news is that by cranking down on the mainsheet you will see that you can effectively slacken the aft lower shrouds a bit. A well-designed pelican hook will serve as a lever so that while you lifting on that lever to close the hook, you will be able to easily reattach the aft lower shroud, even is it is a bit tight.

4. An attachment device, shackle, ring, etc is attached to the upper shroud at a height above the waterline equal to the height above water line of the bolt running through the base of the mast. Therefore the mast base pivot point is in a straight horizontal line with the two upper shroud pivot points. By the way, the shroud pivot points must be at a place that actually does bend without stressing the rig components, like a T bolt with toggle at the top end of your shroud turnbuckle.

That is all of the required hardware for the standing rig modifications. Now for the running rig:

The running rig consists of two components.

1. A set of boom guys. Most people use two lines with a carabineer on each end or a less or more expensive clip of some sort. Each line is attached on one end to the aft end of the boom and on the other end to the upper shroud pivot point. The purpose of these two boom guys is to prevent the boom from flopping to one side or the other as the mast is lowered. This is very important and critical, since bad things can happen to hardware and people if the boom flops to the side. At the boom end of the boom guys, the carabineers or clips on the boom guys are attached to a bail or some other attachment point on the boom. On my boat I used a bail.

I used a single line with a loop in the center as described in my earlier post. This line secures the two upper shroud pivot points to a bail on the aft end of the boom. The loop falls down and attaches by a free running clip onto a pad eye on the bulkhead at the aft end of the cockpit to prevent accidental lowering of the mast once the backstay is released. In total, I used oversized bronze clips from West Marine at about $3.00 a piece (fixed eye boat snaps on West Marine 2002 catalog page 981).

2. A set of two bridles. These two bridles connect the upper shroud pivot points to a point on the deck aft of the upper shroud. These bridles are often fixed bridles made of stainless steel wire that run from the upper shroud pivot point to the base of the aft lower shroud. In my case, I had no lifelines and no stanchions. I was unwilling to drill holes in my deck, given the nature of the deck structure near the toe rail, and my observation of cracking in the area of stanchions on other Ariels. I also do not believe that traditional stanchion secured lifelines are as safe as they appear to be. Certainly they are safer than no lifelines, but I decided to design a new system based on an idea presented in Dan Spurr's Boat Book. You will find that sketch of Frank Mulville's cruising lifelines on page 171 of the second edition of "Spurr's Boatbook Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat". This was the inspiration for my adaptation. See my web page at: http://www.solopublications.com/sailarip.htm for photos of my adaptation of the same theory for installing double lifelines on an Ariel.

In my system, a lower lifeline running from the upper shroud pivot point to a pad eye at the forward edge of the boarding step in the photo above doubles as a bridle. It is permanent and fixed. My lifelines could be either wire or Dacron. They are at present three strand Dacron. My lifelines are designed to be secure places to attach harness safety lines, since they run to through-deck pad eyes on either end.

The purpose of the bridles is to stabilize the upper shroud pivot point so that it does not move forward as the mast is lowered. In other words, the upper shroud pivot points and mast base pivot points remain in a straight line during the tabernacle operation.

No crutch is necessary as would be the case if you were to instead lower your mast toward the stern after removing the boom, as is the procedure on some trailer sailors.

On the mast tabernacle installed on my boat, the mast is stabilized by the boom guys, bridles, the upper part of the backstay, which is attached by a pelican hook to the bail at the aft end of the mast to which the boom guys are also attached, and very importantly by the tightened boom vang.

If you made a drawing of this tabernacle rig, you would see that the set-up is structurally sound, being composed of a whole mess of very stable triangles. Even better, look it up in Bruce Bingham's "The Sailor's Sketchbook" page 32-36. Bruce Bingham talks you through you through a series of thirteen detailed sketches of a well-designed tabernacle rig. The drawings show details of all of the components, and demonstrate the operation of the rig in progress. Everyone ought to own at least one copy of "The Sailor's Sketchbook" in my opinion anyway. The book is a lot of fun, and will inspire you to many projects from anchor brackets to wooden ceilings. Sorry, but I couldn't find any projects in the book starting with the letter y or the letter z.

[Scott Galloway]

I am not aware of any store-bought options for tabernacle rigs. In 1984, on my first boat, a Catalina 22, I adapted a mast base plate that I found in a marine yard to tabernacle my first boat, and borrowed swaging tools to adjust my wire to accommodate a tabernacle. A rigger made up the pelican hooks, and installed the equipment for me. I did not install bridles, but the rig on that boat worked satisfactorily anyway.

I was fortunate that my Ariel was tabernacled when I bought it. The existing set-up was a two-person operation, which in my opinion was neither safe, nor practical for single-handing for a number of reasons. Nonetheless, I did have the mast base plate and the pelican hooks. I had a rigger modify my backstay, so that it would a break at boom height. I added boom guys, my lifeline/bridle, some clips (West Marine fixed eye boat snaps catalog page 981). The bail on the aft end of my boom on which I attach the boom guys and backstay during the tabernacle operation is new also.

My backstay-tensioning device is similar to the "backstay turnbuckle jaw and jaw" in the West Marine catalog page 354. I made up the tensioning wrench that I use with this device. However, to date, I have found that I can maintain the proper tension on my backstay by cranking down on the main sheet before releasing the backstay, and similarly cranking down on the mainsheet before reattaching it. Therefore, tensioning the backstay before and after each sail is unnecessary. All of the shackles that I needed were available at West Marine. Actually I use a ring and shackle on the aft lower shroud pelican hooks. The ring slips over the closed pelican hook. This slips quickly over the hook. Once the shroud tension has been reestablished, a pin is inserted through the shackle (key pin locking halyard shackle West Marine 2002 Catalog page 982), and a hole in the end of the pelican hook to insure added security. A variety of rings are also available at West Marine. I don't have specifications on my pelican hooks, but I would be glad to trace one for you and mail it to you if you e-mail me your address. As for the mast base, don't use mine. If you do, the pivot point on the mast will be so low that you will not be able to lower your mast all the way to the bow pulpit without hitting the forward hatch. So, design your own and have one made up for your boat. You will get some ideas for this plate from looking at Bruce Bingham's "The Sailor's Sketchbook" referenced below.

And yes, you should be able to do one heck of a lot of mast work right at the dock, no fees, and no mast climbing. If the mast is lowered and then braced on the dock end, you could easily remove the mast.

One additional comment should be made. Do not allow anyone out of the cockpit during tabernacle operation. If the mast drops forward do to operator error or component failure, a person forward of the mast could be injured.

Finally I love the upper harbor here. I have the benefit of a slip in n clean inland riparian environment and easy access to the open sea. Although I must lower and raise my mast to get under the bridge, I am able to do at of this and raise the sails alone while motoring in a more or less straight line out of the harbor. The only added time occurs results becausae my running speed is necessarily slower than it might be while I am on my way out of the harbor, since I need to be away from the tiller to install and/or remove the running portion of the tabernacle rig.

[Brendan Watson]

Hi Scott,
Thanks for the additional info on the Tabernacle rig. I'm going to
get one made this winter for use next season. Also, in the pictures ,
those blocks of yours look pretty sharp. I am assuming they are
Garhauer from your info. Where can I get info/catalog?
Also, I'm thinking I might try to incorporate the wooden mast step
and the tenons on the bottom of the mast. I like the rig set up
pretty tight and to do so, if the mast rests on a bolt alone, is to hasten the demise
of the tabernackle. The bolt could sleeved with steel that is softer
than the risers . The sleeve could be replaced easily and you would
save the holes in the riser from elongation resulting from the compressive load
on the rig in compression.
What I'm thinking is that if the pivot shaft was trapped in a "T"
shaped slot in the risers I could retain the idea of the shock absorbing
mast step and seat the mast into the step using the tenons to locate the mast
and take the compressive load.
I realize that the depth of the tenons will dictate the length, or really the height of the slot
and the amount the rig will need to be loosened in order to get the mast stepped/unstepped.
Any thoughts on that ?
I like the idea about plugging the mast's bottom to secure the pivot bolt .
Cheers, B.
Commander #215

[Scott Galloway]

Brendan,

The Garhauer website is found at: http://www.garhauermarine.com

The Garhauer phone number is (909) 985-9993. They offer some special deals at boat shows and do not sell through retail stores. They have a well illustrated catalog. The blocks in the photograph are Garhauer series 30 single blocks with swivel shackle (model 30-13SL)

The "SL" means that they are in the Garehuaer Stainless Steel lite block series. There is very little friction in these spiffy blocks. I bought them last year for the 2002 catalog price of $16.50 each + tax + shipping.

However, I specified a screw-in shackle pin instead of a slip-in pin with a retaining ring as pictured in the catalog. So get a Garhauer catalog and have some fun. These a bearing blocks, so it is best to wash them with fresh water after use in salt water. Garhauer also stocks the more traditional solid stainless steel blocks for a similar price.

[Bill]

And if you really want to impress your dock mates, go for the Garhauer titanium blocks! :)

[ebb]

There seems to be a kind of rake in the 'search' mode of this site that will find stuff no matter where it is. 'My Ariel Althea' on the Gallery channel has a thread on the above subject. And it has been discussed often elsewhere.

I didn't pay too much attention to the deck lam when the flange was cut away in a larger square for the new Bomar coach roof hatch. So I made the liner frame and glued up some curved backup pieces for something to bolt to, and noticed, finally, that something wasn't right with the balsa core on the maststep side of the cut out.

Well, repairs had been made to the 'under-the-maststep' area to various violations thru the deck for wires over the years and I thought it was done. But recently I was worried about the 'point load' of the mast on the cored deck. Pearson had no filler piece under the mast in the core, other than balsa.

Now, it was evident that the hatch hinge fastenings over time had let fresh water into the core. Black shrunken core. Poking into it discovered that the 'tunafish' colored stuff wasn't too solid either. So with the trusty 5 1/2" skillsaw cut a rectangle back almost to the doghouse in the top fiberglass layer - that incorporates the maststep area. About 10" X 20". Blackened balsa where the wire thruholes were. Chiseld and scraped the good and the bad wood out down to the rather thin and flexible inner fiberglass. Intend to layer in xmat to the surface. That ought to spread the load. Mast pad, deck, compression beam will all be solid and hopefully incompressible.

But I'm wondering about all those other deck fastenings now because they were merely plugged with epoxy goop when the boat was stripped!

[Tony G]

Ebb
Are you admitting that you didn't dig out around those holes before filling with epoxy:eek: I find that hard to believe. You know-the whole bent nail in the drill thing and all? But hey that solid mast step has gotta feel good. Because of the butcher-job done on 113 her mast step will have to be fixed from the outside also. 'Thinkin solid just like your's. so, how many layers does it take to build up 1/2"?

[ebb]

Capt. T,
5 layers of the heavy (25oz ?) xmat will get you 1/4". I will make sure as many as possible will get tucked under the edge of the excavation.

It was raining when the holes got plugged. It was a semi-temporary, didn't have the tent then, and there seemed to be holes everywhere. Got this readymade white stuff and pushed it in with the blade until it came out inside. Sometimes it was a little, sometimes a lot. When I get to prep the deck I'll open some up to see if it's a rot area. Don't have any squishy areas in the deck, yet it's likely that there is decomposed balsa at every fastening hole. And probably not in a symetrical donut shape!

Found black balsa at the thrudeck chainplates. [Also found that the tops of the chainplate knees inside had some rot.] There I filled the cavity on the deck, after the plates were removed, just enough to get a hard surface, then a hole saw was used to open each area up.
Used a sharpened allen wrench to excavate around the hole,
taped the bottom, filled wish mishmash, and pressed the holesawed lid back on top. Doesn't look pretty. But I think new slots for upgraded plates will work ok.

I worry that contaminated balsa is still inside there. I'm aware of no fix for rot except complete removal (penetrating epoxy notwithstanding.)
Probably will do exploratory holesaw excavation where the tracks were. The vent hole up front is another real suspicious area. Leading Mike, for one, to do a whole heroic recoreing of his deck!

Isolating fastenings with oversized epoxy plugs is absolutely necessary.
Keeps water out, fastens top to bottom of the composit, creates a non-compressable column. I think I remember some enterprising dude drilling thousands of holes in his deck, excavating them, and troweling on the miracle epoxy.:cool:

(I'm in total denial about the possibility of having to recore. I prefer to be completely surprised each time I discover some punky balsa. Mind over rot, my motto. That's why I have a plastic boat, that's why the plastic boat has me! NO rot, none, neit, nien, never, not.)

[commanderpete]

Any thoughts on using a halyard organizer plate between the mast step and the bottom of the mast?

Something like one of these

http://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=19&familyName=Halyard+Organizer+Plates

I think I've seen a boat or two with them around here.

The way my halyards are set up now, I can't use the cabintop winches without getting riding turns. I'd like to bring the lines down and over. Something like on this boat.

Any thoughts appreciated

[Tony G]

CPete,

I really hope something exactly like that works! Initially I had some concern about adding a 3/16" to 1/4" shim to the bottom of the mast. Maybe the mast will fly out of it's step or something....then I realized that was a stupid thought. It seems to be a safer alternative than drilling more holes in the mast and attaching eyestraps and padeyes.

I'm sure you're planning to be in the water at the very begining of the season so you will have finished the job before I even get started. Let me know how it works. :D

Thanks, Tony G

[ebb]

Very strong, very secure no baloney hinge has bent up sides with shackle holes like your pic. Two 1/4" plates with 1/2" pin. Gives you the option of lowering the mast yerself forward using the boom onto the pulpit. Or back, of course - your choice. $200. Maybe he sells just the top part for half that.

You're going to have to see if you can get the mast base insert out of the mast extrusion to attach it to any new plate. Good luck.

[Bill]

A couple of local Ariel fleet boats have added the organizer plates. Seem to work just fine. Others have located blocks on the mast such that the various lines come off level with the cabin top.

[commanderpete]

I think the halyard cheekblock arrangement on the Commander is worse than that on the Ariel, which has a taller cabin top.

Ariel:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=1843&stc=1

Commander:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=1792&stc=1

A prior owner of my boat had actually repositioned the cheekblocks toward the front of the mast, so the halyard would come off the block at a better angle.

It still wasn't so good, and the block is now bent and the sheave cracked from hard use.

If I bought a halyard organizer plate I would have to cut out a rectangle for the casting at the base of the mast. Then I would need to think about bolting the plate to the mast step.

Maybe I could fashion my own plate to go UNDERNEATH the mast step. Get a small sheet of proper stainless steel, bend the ends somehow and drill some holes. The same bolts that secure the mast step would go through the plate. Another hole in the center for the mast wires.

This would bring the blocks down even closer to the deck.

I'm hoping to fix one problem and gain flexibility for adding additional lines run back to the cockpit.

I have thought about a tabernackle hinge ebb. I'm just not sure I can wrap my brain around the various considerations involved.

These projects have a way of growing......

[ebb]

Rigrite has things called deck collars. NG-60 or related might stand outside your mast pad. Seem to have blocks on studs that stand up in holes in the collar. Or on the pad with a little organisation.
Don't know where the beam is in your boat or how many turning blocks you need, wouldn't eyebolts work? Or made double turning blocks.
Schaefer makes mast mount halyard 'lift' turning blocks that don't look too cheeky to me.

Have you run into

www.clickbert.com/Fboat/techtip/linesaft.html

It is a Folkboat Marieholm, looks just about like your deck. Go to the Clickbert thingy. Find Folkboats Around the World. Find Halyards Led Aft.
Ther-Yar. Totally useless photo - some of the werds might be usefull.

[commanderpete]

Thanks ebb. Here's that link again

http://www.clickbert.com/IFboat/techtips/linesaft.html

I've got to mull this over some.

I like the deck collar. Has anybody ever identified the make and model of the mast for our boats? The identity of the boom section also remains a mystery.

Here's a deck collar, down towards the bottom of the page

http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Isomat_Spars/Isomat_Masts/NG60_mast.html#Deck%20Collars,%20Mast%20Boots%20an d%20Hardware

[Bill]

"Has anybody ever identified the make and model of the mast for our boats? The identity of the boom section also remains a mystery."

Check the appendix to the manual. You will find Pearson's tech drawings of the mast and boom cross sections on pages 162 and 150. Die owner was Pearson . . .

[ebb]

Checkout the bluetooth at the bottom of the Fboat page: 'Mastfot och skotbank'. There are some great linesaft shots over there.

Folkboats are close cousins, they are still in production, aren't they? Creg Curtis makes it pretty easy to visualize what he's talking about, especially with the Dutch pictures. He used an upturned plate with turning block holes under his mast.

Don't know nuttin 'bout this - but appears that splitting the angle(s) where ever a line has to turn is the way to decrease friction. Like spreaders split the angle. Laying out lines aft to reduce friction might take a little fiddling.

There's a rail under portrait of Fboat 377 on S.F.Bay. Her name is 'Grace' And that is what it is!

[Bill]

Check out the halyard organizer plate installation on A #100 beginning with post #7 at:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=691

See also posts 8, 24 & 27.

I assume that a metal shop could drill the plate for the mast base fasteners and cut a slot to match the key on the bottom of the mast.

[willie]

Hey Pete,
Here's what i did. Not to complex, and works great. Garhauer, and worth it if you're gonna take the mast down. I have a couple blocks attached for running halyards back to control central. It's not hard to install, just have to get the holes drilled right. Getting the fitting out of the mast was the biggest headache. I cut the key off with sawzall, drilled holes to match top plate, and bolted her in. I think this may be in another thread somewhere, oh well.
I like having all the holes in the plate for attaching things. Like kids....lol

Found the thread, here ya go...(roll down to one photo of mine, i'll try to find some more)

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=778

[commanderpete]

Thanks guys. I'm getting inspired. I just need to devote some of my vast mechanical aptitude to the project.

I remember the last time I had to drill some holes through stainless steel. I went out and bought a new metal cutting bit. I started drilling away. Man, that steel is hard! I'm drilling and drilling, making little progress. Used some oil to lubricate the bit. Its smoking away. Finally, after about fifteen minutes, I muscled a hole through. Started on the next one...Jeez, this job is going to take all day.

Went back to the hardware store "Give me your finest metal cutting bit" Says I, "The last one you sold me is crap."

Got back home and put the new bit in the drill. It was then I realized that I had been running the drill in reverse instead of forward.

Job went much more smoothly after that.

[Ed Ekers]

Hey Pete,
Thought I would chime in here. We have a mast base plate on Pathfinder. It looks a lot like the others we see. If there was one thing I would do different it would be to put ears on all four sides. I may not need all the holes but it gives me options. Things like the spinnaker foreguy, main cunningham, boom vang, and a place that I could attach halyards that would be neat and clean when in port. I could come up with others but I think you get the idea.

What ever you end up with I am sure you will appreciate have the base plate.

HAPPY NEW YEAR ! …..ed

[ebb]

Ed,
Hadn't thought that the rigid vang could attach to a loop or bracket on the back of the mast foot plate. It would increase the angle to the boom, taking it off the mast. Probably make it that much easier to adjust.

A piece of rod could be bent in a flat or round top with spread out legs that would be easy to weld at the correct leading angle onto the plate.

Am I reading this right? Is this viable at all?

My guess is that another good reason for the rigid vang is that it's extra helpful in immobilizing the boom when lowering/raising the stick. If it's a hinge.

[John]

Now y'all have me really confooseled. The base casting, nicely rotted (corroded) into the base of my mast, has two lugs fore and aft, to locate the base into the decktop step. I thought that the step was the same on both Ariel and Commanders? If a plate was drilled to allow for the two bolts and the wire access, then it could go between the step and deck. Unless the step has been modified to function as a tabernacle, or the plate had substantial cutouts, I don't see how it could go between the step and mast. Could it (the plate) be trapped by the lugs and just sit there? without any fastening? Or just fastened to the base casting. Countersunk of course. Does Garhaurer make such a mast plate??? hmmm

Happy New Year

And say a prayer for those both lost and found in Asia

[Ed Ekers]

Hey ebb,
I was thinking more in terms of a non rigid vang. The after tab (ear) would allow you a place to connect your block (s) for a traditional vang. I think if you look at the Garhaurer vang you will see a double block at the base of the vang. Because of this block you do need to elevate the mounting point. On Pathfinder when we snub the vang just enough to take out the slack in the line the bottom block hangs about ½ - ¾ of an inch above the cabin top… Happy New Year …….ed

[ebb]

Thanks Ed,
I see it!
Fair winds - may your main always be well vanged - and yer transom never pooped.

[ebb]

C'pete,
Well Ed just shot down a idea of mine. Ideas shouild be shot down.

Here's another chance!
So I was over to Wally Bryant's place, drew the sorts, and got on the mast page, and this mast collar thing was right there, big time.

Now, if you got that nice dense plywood pad that Pearson put under the mast like 338 had, all you gotta do is have yer local ironmonger make a ring out of 1/4" stuff to go around that pad that would stand above the top surface a fair amount thru which a number of suitably sized holes are drilled. A hole for every turning block and then some. Then a half circle (C-shaped) piece that fits the vertical - sitting flat on top of the pad - would be welded on to it. This piece, one for either side, has the holes for the bolts that go thru the pad to the inside. Well, maybe, I don't know what you have there. Course the 'ring' is cut also so you don't have to pull the mast to mount the organisers. port and starboard.

Stainless would be nice. But galvanized would be cheaper and painted would be even nicer, I think, less obtrusive. A local shop with a talented welder could finesse the pieces together. Small job will just be added to the rest of the shop's stuff going to the galvanizers and shouldn't be expensive either.

I've always asked to have the job back for a bit for a final fitting and to round surfaces (like radiusing the corners with a small grinder), filing the bumps out of the welds. Easy if its iron. If they have a sand blasting booth it'll come out real choice (after your work on it.) Hot dip galvanizing, if done correct, is a coating that will not hide flaws. even scratches might show up, and smoothing the welds gets the zinc to seal those corners better.

These T-section pieces, curved snug to the pad would be plenty strong I think. 5/16, 3/8" thru bolts, maybe 3 each? Pad would stay healthy if the top drained by making the 'organizers' completely separate port and starboard pieces to allow drainage. Feed back?


It's a idea.

B A M !

[this is a heavily edited version of my first post]

[commanderpete]

I'm leaning towards getting the hinged mast base after all. Just makes sense. The boatyard charges $300+ to unstep and step the mast.

Not too many people make these--Dwyer, Rig Rite (Anybody else?) None of them come with attachment points for blocks in the front or back.

I like the Ballinger best (Thanks ebb). Looks like the Ballinger part is HMB M30 ($195).

Here's one on a Catalina 27 (scroll down the page a bit)

http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/mast-repair2.htm

A mast hinge doesn't appear on Garhauer's catalog. I spoke to three people there, and they didn't seem familiar with the item. Willie, was your hinge a custom job?

[willie]

Sorry cmdr, it's Ballinger's. Ordered stuff from both, must be the sea-nility setting in!

You'll have to do some drilling alright. Drilling through the cabin top/support beam/added alum. angle was interesting for me. I used the existing holes for starters, then decided to use a long 1/8'' bit and see where we came out inside. Using the hand drill i figured i'd only be a couple inches off, but suprisingly came out right where i intended. I then drilled up from inside with the 3/8. Sounds simple; in reality, it would have been, if i hadn't broke the 1/8'' one off about 3'' deep. What a pain. Ended up having to open things up a bit more to dig it out. Needless to say, it was well blessed by the time i was done!

I also used a die grinder around the butt of the mast, cutting off about 1/2''around the aluminum insert. made getting it out a little easier. Also heat from the torch helps. The 1/2'' shorter mast is made up for with the plate, and my rigging came out about the same. I also filled the hole in the center,cabin top, around bolt holes with epoxy. Now i need to figure out how to run a wire for a steaming light! (does electric trolling motor count?)Guess up the front will be fine for now. Have fun. I'm in the middle of a sewing project. New respect for the mrs., she said i had to do it! Kinda fun actually. :rolleyes:

[commanderpete]

Here we are now in 2005. The mast step saga continues. Sealing the old rotten step in fiberglass didn't work out so great. It must have been too delaminated, a little soft under load. Cracks started to develop over time, water got in, more cracks, etc

[commanderpete]

The trouble really began when I removed the step, which had been bedded with polysulfide. Still very hard to remove. Sucker eventually just pulled apart.

[commanderpete]

So, now I have to build a new one.

Could somebody measure the step on their Commander (different than an Ariel).
I had gotten 1 3/4" in the front and 3/4" in the back.

Been thinking about what type of material to use. The material just needs to be dense and easily worked into shape. Waterproof would be nice too.

Thought about using King Starboard. They make it up to 1 1/2" thick. But, its hard to find in that thickness, and I might need to buy a 4' X 8' sheet when I only need 1 sq. foot. VERY expensive too.

Maybe marine plywood. Also hard to find in that thickness, and I might have to buy a full sheet (not cheap either). Maybe I could glue 2 thinner pieces together.

Not sure how easily I could work the plywood. Needs to be cut wedge-shaped, and then the bottom hollowed to fit the camber of the deck. (Band saw with some type of jig?)

Any ideas on materials or techniques?

[commanderpete]

Got some extra cracks in it removing it from the deck. No putting this one back together.

Smells awful too.

[epiphany]

C'pete -

Cheaper than Starboard, but very similar from what I understand, is sheet PVC board. In the pic below, a fellow used it to do major mods to the interior of a CP23. From what he told me about it, you can glass to it as well. I don't recall the exact name of the supply company which sells it, but they are well known, and it seems like the name was similar to "McMasters". If that doesn't ring a bell with someone here, I can ask at some other sites and get the name. I can't think of any reason why you couldn't bond two thin pieces together in order to get greater thickness, especially if you used a combo of chemical and mechanical bonds. Just some food for thought...

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/7/1114337_6.jpg

[ebb]

McMasters Carr. A wonderful hardware/materials site. You have to practice their catalog, Then it is informative, easy to use, and might lead you to a material (in this case) that's even better than what you thought you went there for.

No boat shops or cabinet shops around Bayshore, Brightwaters and Babylon?
Powerboaters seem to love starboard, maybe somebody at West Marine knows somebody. No one person can afford a sheet of that stuff. A pad could be made out of maranti, which is a phenolic ply board, sometimes called Aquaply and Hydroply, like that. I think the original pads were the same with maybe better wood

I have 1/2" maranti. I'll glue up 3 or 4 squares with epoxy into a sandwich, and mail it to ya. Will you be able to shape it? Not only a wedge shape but also radiused underneath for the cabin top?

[Jim Rester]

Pete

Commander #80's Mast step shown with 2 - 1/16" loose layers of lamination removed yesterday. After removal, the overall thickness of the the aft edge was 5/32", the front edge 1-3/8"

After the removal of the loose layers there was a compression of 3/32" where the mast sat for 40 years. See the gap under the old folding rule in the pic.

I think my response will be-AFTER IT DRIES OUT- to build the concave area with FRP and incase the entire piece in epoxy which I will paint along with the deck.

SUGGESTIONS PLEASE!!!!

Jim

[ebb]

You are absolutely right, you could build the mast pad in a tray form of the correct size with epoxy and matt. Build the form, Cut the shape out of blocks, say, and line the inside edges with cardboard or formica or scotch tape. Attach the form to where you want it. Lay in seran wrap or thin visqueen as a release.

Cut your matt in pieces to fit the shape. Cut all the pieces and a few more. Since this pad is a horizontal wedge cut a bunch of pieces into a step pattern and build it up until you can lay on a couple layers of the full pattern as you finish. Lay the pcs up dry in the form first, and remove. Preview.

I would use x-matt, an about 20 oz matt with roving loosely sewn to the top. A yard by a yard would be too much. Similar stuff comes in different weights and widths - it'll all work in this case. Use a 2-to-one 100% solids laminating epoxy resin with a slow hardner. Slow hardner virtually assures it won't blush. Use one quart 'multi-measure' plastic cups, mix good, then pour into another cup to use.

[Well, I hope this is useful and not patronizing.
One last thing, Since this is a small contained job and you have to use West System, I would cut a piece of Mylar to fit in the form to press down on top of each exotherm stop. There is no way to fill the weave with runny epoxy. This with your gloved fingers - press the weave into the liquid, leave the mylar, and it will set smooth. If the mylar has a couple folds in it, like tabs,it'll pull right off. Only when set. You can't get it off until you let it get completely hard! This might obstruct the blush from forming, but if it does form you have a smoother surface to wash. Scuff it a bit with 40 grit befor you continue and it will be as if there was no interruption.] put this under the next paragraph of this essay.

Paint on a juicey layer of mixed epoxy into the empty form - wet the whole bottom - and lay in the first piece of matt. Paint on some more, wet it out, and start the wedge steps. If you are going to stop to avoid heat buildup, place a whole piece of fiberglass over your steps and get it flattened and juicey befor you stop. When the exotherm has subsided continue with the steps, building up the deep end of the form. No problem if you have to leave it a day or so. (Your epoxy may blush, so you have to do what the specs say here, but see the bracketed paragraph.) Finish the top with whole pieces. If you layer higher than the form leave the pad in the form and use it as a guide to work down to. First day after set very 'easy' to beltsand, grind or file. Try to avoid it.

It is possible to do the whole job in one sitting. But exotherm would screw up your careful work. I would split in into 2 or three sessions. It can get so hot it will boil! Two, 3, 4 layers (pieces) of matt. let it go off, waiting for cool down befor the next set. In cold temperatures this exotherm can be beneficial, but watch it, build on lukewarm only!

I often work on mylar. Epoxy won't stick to it. Get the heavier mil. Stuff I use is 2 feet wide. If you cast onto that you end up with an incredibly shiney smooth and flawless surface. You might line the inside of your pad form sides with it. Couple pieces double sided carpet tape would hold the mylar, however epoxy doesn't adhere to the vinyl peeler on the tape. It'll stick good enough to the form, cut it to fit, leave peeler on. Won't be exactly off the shelf like using mylar.

If it is cold (like heat the deck from inside to start) figure out a way to do a couple layers, let it harden and unscrew the mold from the deck :eek: and take it inside, that way you have the footprint. I would try to do it all in place, tho.

Instead of a form in pieces you might build up a form of fairly narrow one piece rings of plywood (make it in the wedge shape you want when finished) Called 'one off.' When you unscrew it from the deck it wouldn't surprise me that you could press it right out of the form. Mylar would help alot in this. And a piece of mylar under a piece of ply pressed on to the top of your last layer so you get epoxy running out - it'll look fantastic. I would have started by laying down a sheet of mylar over the deck, and build on it. When it is set you take it into the warm shop to finish it. Using heavy weight mylar will give you a hard edge look to the finished piece. I probably would not bother to put the extra release seran wrap in the form for that reason. Form might get epoxied in places, but it's sacrificed, so you can trash it.

If you wanna get fancy, add universal color to the epoxy, whatever color of the deck, or close. It'll help with the UV.

It is a lotta fun. Go for it. Don't use carbon fiber (under an aluminum mast), Kevlar would be good alternative. Might get end of roll pieces cheap, you don't care.
Epoxy can take some time to set up in cold temps. So you can see that NO BLUSH epoxy will get you thru the exothem steps without the extra bs, because you can build right on top without washing your work. Any company that sells you expensive epoxy that blushes is NOT your friend.

[ If you go with the ring scenario and it's flat on the bottom and your deck is curved, and you are not going to carve it so it lies snug, you can fill the spaces with modeling clay, or bondo. Cut the smooch-out to the vertical sides of the form and tape in the mylar cut to fit the curve. Any imperfections can be repaired later. Why couldn't you also mold a mastbase plug to the pad making the two integral. Wouldn't have the casting welding itself to the extrusion any more. The mast would just lift right off!]

[commanderpete]

Jim, you could try encasing the step in fiberglass. Tim Lackey did that on his Triton.

However, although the step seems hard, the delaminated plywood may move/crush a little under the fiberglass over time--hence the cracking fiberglass I experienced. Then water gets in and rots the step some more.

The mast step will still work--it doesn't do anything but sit there anyway. It is certainly not going to fail in some catastophic fashion. Mine is just too far gone.

I think building a new step as ebb described is the way to go. Probably be easier than trying to shape material to fit.

I remember somebody doing this on a Pearson Renegade. Found the link

http://www.renegade27.org/mast.html

Maybe I can affix the bottom of a plastic tub to a rounded surface so it conforms to the shape of the deck.

Better yet, make the bottom of the tub the top of the step. Create a rounded wedge to mush into the tub.

[drm901]

I was reminded of this fact - after I made the same mistake (only I used oak). After it split after one season, I switched to marine grade plywood, with several good coats of West Systems. Plywood, by design, is substantially stronger than any single piece of wood. Each ply has the grain going in the opposite direction. Since I do a lot of woodworking, I should have known this - before the reminder.

I fit the step to the deck with a belt sander, rasp, and finish sander. After 100 fittings, it came out perfect. As long as you take your time and not take off too much at a time, it works well.

[Dan Maliszewski]

C'Pete,

If you are going to do any serious amount of drillling on stainless you need to regring your drill bit point to be "flatter" than the stock kind. I fergit the exact angle, but the regular bit is too "pointy" for stainless, and will get too hot and just stop cutting. And yes, they need to spin clockwise. Done that myself - yikes, are we getting that old? My wife labels my shoes TGIF - toes-go-in-first.....

I too have been thinkin' hard about moving my halyards aft on my Ariel, but I just may install a tiller pilot instead and keep everything on the mast. Still have some time, it's nasty outside!

[ebb]

Dan,
Think you can get by with the regular 135 degree bits. The trick is to not let the bit spin without cutting as that builds up heat right away and hardens the metal, and kills the bit. Start and drill thru the work with a reasonably small size bit and step up to the size you want. 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", etc. Got to keep the bit cool with kerocene or cutting oil or water even. Making sure the shavings aren't changing color - too hot. The whole thing is to avoid heat. Ought to drill clamped to a the table of a standing drill press. Only way to get a true round hole. Go careful on the way out of the bottom of what yer drilling. Press, get shavings, release, lube. Press, get shavings, etc. NO steady pressure. You can drill stainless with ordinary new jobbers but...


I think cobalt coated bits are the coolest! :cool:

[commanderpete]

Made some progress on a new mast step.

Just laid up many, many layers of glass and mat. Many.

Still have to shape it a bit, drill some holes and paint it up.

For grinding I go outside in the snow and use my Special Mobile Grinding Lab.

[ebb]

He got the whole Lab in his hand, he got th.........

[commanderpete]

Free at last...Free at last

Finally got the mast base casting out of the bottom of the mast. Quite an ordeal.

Here's what I started with

[commanderpete]

First I tried to extract the screws. No chance. Then I drilled them out and cleaned up the seam between the casting and the mast.

Then I tried to pound the casting out. I didn't want to unleash my full fury on it because I was afraid of cracking the casting in half. Wouldn't come out.

Time to cut off a bit of the mast.

[commanderpete]

I figured it would come out easily now. I was wrong.

[commanderpete]

More pounding. Eventually I drove a thin putty knife up between the casting and the mast. I was only able to pound the putty knife in a millimeter at a time.

Used about a can of PB Blaster, also a bit of torch. Mangled one screwdriver, a hammer, 2 screw extractors, 4 putty knives and 3 knuckles. I think bleeding on it helped.

I just kept repeating to myself:

"I will have this victory.....I WILL have this victory"

These words sustained me.

And so it came to pass

[commanderpete]

Cut off the tenons on the bottom so it sits flat on the hinge.

No turning back now.

[commanderpete]

The casting now gets cleaned up and bolted to the top plate of the mast hinge.

Willie, any insights or pictures on that part?

Don't think I would have had the courage for this project if Willie hadn't paved the way.

[commanderpete]

Just to tie things together, here's an old thread on the mast hinge

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=726&page=1&pp=15

This is the mast hinge project on a Triton that ebb mentioned. Have to scroll down a bit

http://www.geocities.com/pegasus256/Rig.htm

Ebb, how's your hinge project coming?

Finally, I came across this picture of a guy who had some trouble getting the casting out of his mast. Wonder what his knuckles look like

[willie]

Great job Commander! That's almost exactly what i went through. Except i wacked it a bit hard and broke a chunk out of the lip. Oh well. So I considered having a new one made out of billet alum. Things didn't work out with that plan, so used the old casting. It would be a lot simplier with a chunk of aluminum that had a flat top. But what i did was center the thing on the top plate, and mark the holes, drill them with drill press. They come out along the inside wall of the casting, so you have to use a small grinder or something to make a flat surface about 1/2 way down the wall for the nuts and washers. Fun, NOT, but it can be done with patience such as yours.

How you planning on mounting the bottom plate? That's when things got real interesting for me, drilling through the cabin top, wondering where it was gonna come out inside. Good luck! I look forward to seeing what you come up with! :rolleyes:And of course, photos for evidence! Maybe a double breasted matress thrasher or some other type of critter....

[Robert Lemasters]

Yard fees for mast removal/ replacement and passing under bridges has had me thinking about a mast hinge for my Commander next year. If I do it, I plan on carving a piece of hardwood for the hinge that the mast will fit into so I don't have to remove and modify the cast bottom mast piece. I may have to reinforce the area around the compression post for added strength and material. The mast hinge pictured looks very nice and should do the job. Where and how much? Mast hinge is a great idea, no climbing mast for repairs etc.

[commanderpete]

Ballenger Spars
http://www.ballengerspars.com/

It's on this page of the parts list
http://www.ballengerspars.com/cgi-bin/ballenger/patslist2001-02.cfm

It's under "Hinged Mast Base, Complete" # HMB M30

$ 195 with the punched flanges for attaching blocks, $ 150 without

I tried to order the part without the four center holes already drilled. But, this would have cost more money and taken more time for some reason.

Take a look at the link about the Triton on the last page. He built his own insert out of aluminum.
http://www.geocities.com/pegasus256/Insert.htm

I might have done that if I had read about it earlier. This way you could cut up and beat the old casting out of the mast.

I would have enjoyed that a whole lot more.

[natalie e.]

I am getting ready to attach newly built mast step and would like to hear what the best adhesive/sealent to use between the mast step and cabin top?. I covered the new step in epoxy except for the bottom side of the step thinking that I would use a elmers gorlla glue to react with the raw wood on the bottom side. I have filled the old lag bolt holes with epoxy to accept the new lag bolts and wondered about the old configuration of the lag bolts, two longest being closest to the mast and two shorter lags on the outside?.

[commanderpete]

You got 4 lag bolts? I think there were only 2 originally.

Anyway, the bolts hold the step on. Using adhesive would make the step nearly impossible to remove. (I never thought I would have to take mine off again either). Even sealant underneath makes the step very difficult to remove.

I assume you made a plywood step and covered it in epoxy. If water gets into the plywood it will expand and crack the epoxy, letting more water in. So, you might as well try to make it waterproof all around---epoxy everywhere. I think water will eventually get in anyway

Need to paint the top for UV protection of the epoxy

You'll want to properly prepare the holes going through the deck so water doesn't get in the core.

[ebb]

On 338 the balsa core under the step showed fresh water deterioration mostly from the hole for the mast electrics. Would seal off the laminate with standard oversize drilling of holes and replacing of any mushy balsa core. Isolate with epoxy. I would use polysulfide to mount the step, creating the best seal you can with the two step gasket approach. Provide drainage for any water that gets into the mast.

[natalie e.]

Thanks for the replys and sorry my questions ended up on the gallery page. I am gald I asked before proceding. I have filled the lag bolt holes with epoxy and noticed epoxy running underneith the bulkhead and down the wall so I just kept injecting until the epoxy top off in the holes. I hope this seeping out of epoxy does not spell trouble in the bulkhead or core. It does not seem to sag in that area and the core seems firm. Looking forward to afixing the new step.

[ebb]

natalie e,
Good luck. This is a case where a few photos would have proved helpful.

[Normal holes thru the plywood maststep would be two in number. On 338, if I remember, they were 4" 5/16" flathead bronze screws. They went thru the pad, thru the deck, and into the beam under the mast. To have runs down the plywood bulkhead would not be difficult, as the structure is rather loose under there after all these years. Could run out anywhere.

You may have helped seal and had old wood absorb some of the the epoxy liquid. Since it essentially was not very controlled, there will be untreated unseen surfaces. If the structure seems sound then it's probably ok. A traditional way to look for rot is to poke likely areas with an ice pick. Like the top of the beam.

If you actually filled the screw holes you will have to predrill them to receive the original screws. You cannot leave out those two main screws mentioned above. As C'pete says, while epoxy is a good sealer you cannot leave it exposed to sunlight. If you used epoxy on the step you have to paint, which you can wait to do until everything is back in place.

Befor assembly seal the hole thru the deck (paint the exposed balsa with the same liquid 2-part epoxy.) If there is mushy balsa showing in the hole you have to dig it out and replace it - depending on the extent of deterioration. Can't be anything bendy under the maststep. Has to be solid.} worried aboutcha. :)