addendum Electric Outboards

[mbd]

...but now I am planning on a 48 volt Mars brushless electric motor set up. less weight, no noise, I moor at a dock with shore power so charging isn't a problem. it looks like I will get about 1.5 hours @ hull speed or 4-5 hours @ around 3 knots with 4 group 27 deep cycle batteries.
Keep us updated and post lots of details on this one!

[Commander 147]

electric motor. Can you give us some links to the equipment you plan on using?

[Commander 147]

Have you checked out EVA, Inc.? This link is to the website and below is a quote that they gave me for the same kind of electric motor repower.

http://www.ev-america.com/EVACatalog.html

[Commander227]

Willbe,
My first intention was to go with a brushed shunt wound motor and controller. I figured I could pull them out of an old gulf cart or pick up something on the cheep from ebay. (I think the scrapping of a gulf cart is probably a pretty good way to go as you would get virtually everything you would need all in one shot and I think the performance would be acceptable.)
I think however that if I'm going to go through all the work of designing and installing the system, I should spend a few bucks and buy shiny new things.
I've decided to go with the Mars brushless motor, Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller, Sevcon DC/DC converter to power the boat's 12 volt systems.
I have not had a chance to look much into chargers yet.
I'm 90% sure I'm going with Thunderstruck motors, for at least the main components.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm
This link brings you to a kit that is close to what I am planning to install, but I want a few different components and wish to make the wiring harnesses myself to get the neatest possible installation. Curtis makes a throttle Pot (wd-45)that goes 5 ohms-0 ohms-5 ohms so I won't need a fwd/rev switch, I can just move the throttle back for reverse and push forward for forward.
The Mars brushless motor weighs only 24 lbs as opposed to 100 plus lbs for a shunt wound motor of equal power and the brushless motors are also quite a bit more efficiant as well as being maintanance free.
The motor is actually A/C 3 phase and the controller converts the D/C power by sending pulses to the motor. This system is set up for regenitive braking, so the controller can be programmed to start charging the batteries once you get up around hull speed and free wheel before that.
Many sites have the motor for about $450.
About the same for the controller,
Contactors, fuses, throttle pot, switches will probably add up to another $400.-$500.
Unlike IC engines that have a narrow power band, the nature of electric motors is to have tons of low end torque. this system should not have any problem pushing my Commander around at hull speed, the only question is range. you need about 400 lbs of batteries to give you the same BTUs as 6 lbs of diesel fuel. Being I sail a inland lake and can charge from shore power at my dock, I am selecting batteries to give me one hour @ hull speed, (enough to get back from the bars and restaurants in Wayzata Bay fast, without going below 80% depth of charge) I would like to keep the weight down as much as I can. I should be able to keep the weight about the same as with the outboard, and way below the weight of the Atomic 4, fuel, engine battery & house battery.
I dunno... it looks O.K. on paper. We'll see how it looks under the bright lights of reality.
An article in the March/April Wooden Boat Magizine about a guy who built an electric launch is what got me going on this whole deal, after doing my own due diligence and research I re-read the article and found I had come up with pretty much the same system and components.

[mbd]

Here's another site I ran across: http://www.elcoelectriclaunch.com/drives.htm

and another: http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/

[Commander 147]

Commander 227

Do you have any idea how much electricity you can generate with the Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller setup? Obviously the more you can generate the less battery weight you need to carry. I would really like to avoid needing 8 batteries. Going out long channels to get to deep water in the gulf makes my future repower a little more demanding than your inland lake sailing. I will also be looking at photovoltaics as a possible method of getting some juice back before I get back to the dock. The upside is you don't need wind to charge that way but the downside is you need a lot of them to get a significant amount of recharging capacity. Solar cell technology is improving by leaps and bounds and the problems may soon be overcome.

I was unable to find the Curtis WD-45 throttle you mentioned. I found a WP-45 but it only works up to 30 volts. Can you give me a link to the throttle? Will it lock in the center so you don't accidentally bump it into forward or reverse? I guess a key switch would make bumping the throttle not a problem however.

Have you given any thought to where you will locate the batteries? I would like to keep them as far forward as possible without making the cable excessively long.

Will you use a folding prop or a fixed prop to maximise regenerating capability?

Like you I hate using an outboard on my sailboat. I am determined to use an electric inboard drive. So when you have completed your repower I would like very much to fly up to see your setup. Would you be willing to show it off to me?

[Commander227]

Commander 227

Do you have any idea how much electricity you can generate with the Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller setup?

I was unable to find the Curtis WD-45 throttle you mentioned. I found a WP-45 but it only works up to 30 volts.

Have you given any thought to where you will locate the batteries?

Will you use a folding prop or a fixed prop to maximise regenerating capability?

So when you have completed your repower I would like very much to fly up to see your setup. Would you be willing to show it off to me?

I really do not yet have a handle on the regen capabilities. There are so many variables such as prop slippage, prop size and come in speed. I think I'll just have to play with the programming once the system is installed. A few sites selling similar systems claim to be able to regen while at anchor in a current. I don't think I would want it to come online and start inducing drag until I was near hull speed, but I'll have easy charging in my slip.

My mistake... it is the WP-45. Keep in mind it is not using the full line voltage, just the 10.5v controller circuit voltage. Anyway I'm off the WP-45. The Harbor 20 uses a Motorguide electric motor set up and has a very neat key switch and throttle in a nice recessed pan that will mount flush. It is 5-0-5 K ohms, it does not have any feel or neutral detent, but I've found it to work great the few times I've sailed a harbor 20. I just ordered the pictured set up from Schock.

Batteries will be kept as low and close to the C/G as possible. I had to place a couple of sand bags in my anchor rode compartment this summer to balance the 9.9 O.B. Before haul out I pulled the O.B. and the sand bags and the boat still rode bow high and took almost 100# to level out the boat. Being the I.B. motor will sit about 6' aft of the C/G, I know I'll need at least 2 batts well forward. I will not build the battery boxes until all systems are in place and I can float the boat to get the balance right.

A folding prop will not work with the relief cut into the keel and rudder. I am debating on 2 blade vs. 3 blade. If I use a 2 blade I can mark the shaft and pin it inline with the keel when racing, but it sure is nice to have that 3 blade bite when you are accelerating or stopping. I'm on vacation next week and have Dave Garr's "Propeller Handbook" for my beach reading.

I'd love to show it off if it works and I don't end up pulling it all back out and hauling it to the scrap yard.

[Bill]

SolidNav has a line of electric motors for boats. Svend's in Alameda, CA has the "Traveler" model on display . . . an outboard. Stats in the owner's manual indicate an equivalent 4-hp from 3.0 kw. Here's the pitch:

"SolidNav proudly announces a real electric option for sailboats without an existing inboard, pontoon boats and for small craft that require reliable outboard performance. Our long shaft and remote engine controls make docking enjoyable without the dread of lethal oil sheens and clouds of foul smelling fumes. Actual outboard construction and solid frame construction position the traveler as the only choice for real world applications.

$2,499*"

http://www.solidnav.com/traveler.html

From my limited observation, the shaft and head should fit in the A-C well. Not sure, however, about the clearance distance from the aft bulkhead in the lazarette, as I did not have access to a measuring device. ;)

[Commander227]

Bill,
I believe this has the same electric motor as I am planning to install as an Inboard, the Mars PMAC. the controller is smaller (150 amp) than I am planning on using (250 amp) . I have seen similar models that have the Mars motor bolted to the Tohatsu 6hp lower unit and cowl. The SolidNav Explorer model is also the same motor with a smaller controller as the ThunderStruck kit and is a neat little package, but over $3.000. more expensive.

[ebb]

For me there has to be more than a web site and hype to become interested in an electric outboard. There is no spread to their presentation. Curious lack of testimonial, photo and video support. This being a three years in development American product where are the long legs, installation and spray shots? Where's the action?

At least the price is comparable to gas OBs. How about the wear and tear.
How about a demo on a particular market target sailboat? Weight issue (batteries) might keep the motor out of the race crowd. It's not for extended cruising unless you can make juice as you use it. I'd like to see it demoed in more water than marina parking.

It's unavoidable that the electric OB will be compared to the gas OB on more than the green factor and the price.
You have to incude the dedicated battery bank in the cost comparison. The battery issue, weight and room and CHARGING, has to be addressed realistically by the company. imco

Or do we have to wait for Practical Sailor to rate it?
(Practical Sailor now features unrated untested new products. Being a cynic - and certain there must be hundreds of new products coming on market every week - I wonder if the featured manufacturer is paying a fee for the privilege of the exposure. It's good to know of new products but not with an implied approval stamp from a product testing "we take no advertising" magazine.) P.S. should be doing a comparison test soon.

There needs to be third party feedback.

[ebb]

For you DIY fans this is interesting - maybe not, but I was impressed with the detail - click on the 'Updates':
Etek Electric Outboard Motor Project
http://www.psnw.com/-jmrudholm/etekoutboard.html

And here is an video with sound of a Torgeedo being tested. The test is with a noisy self contained lithium battery version. I think. An Ariel would have to use their 24 volt Cruise version that runs off a battery bank. Needs 2000Watts!!!
Testing The Torgeedo
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/testing-the-torgeeda.php

Neither of these come up.
I've checked my typing on downloads and they are accurate.
Worth finding. Use the title for google.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
Some YouTube videos:
Converting sailboat Tranquility to electric propulsion.
Sea-EV Electric Sailboat Conversion
Hans Kloepfer and his electric Pearson Vanquard
Yacht Electric Conversion
Spincraft electric boat Pearson Vanquard sailboat "Amphitrite"
........this was late at night - might have screwed up the titles....
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
E-POD SYSTEM 2000 (comparable to an 8HP OB): Is a compact all in the water horizontal 24-48V motor about the size of a suckling pig that is attached to the underside of a sailboat with two pipe-sized thru-holes. It is meant for trailerable fin keelers.
However it might work through an altered OB well in an Ariel where it could be lowered and raised so that the unit wouldn't produce drag as designed. Bats can be regeneratively charged by letting the prop spin. Certainly seems possible that a vertical model could be produced to be used as an OB. Unit may need to be in the water for cooling.
See 'forum' pics of a double install on a Columbia 43 of their size-up model!
www.re-e-power.com

[ebb]

apology for too many posts

[mbd]

Didn't take the time to look up the price, but it's looking promising!

http://www.vimeo.com/3339416

[Rico]

MBD - That was the 2 HP Motor... They also make this! (see below...) This is the correct motor for our boats (Outboard in the well model). It is a 9.9 HP gas equivalent and it spins a 10" prop! (great for our displacement hulls!

The new, lightweight Cruise 4.0 R offers further unique advantages for boaters. Each 48 V electric outboard comes standard with a cable set, fuse, main-switch, remote throttle control with integrated board computer and magnetic on/off switch as well as a link-arm to connect to standard steering systems.

Offering 215 lbs. of thrust, the Cruise 4.0 R has the thrust equivalent to a 9.9 hp internal combustion outboard. More importantly, the propulsive power, measured as speed times thrust after all losses including propeller losses, compares to an 8 hp gas outboard in displacement mode.

This is priced at $3,699.00 (Including current discount offer!)

Link:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=52926&familyName=Torqeedo+Cruise+4.0+R+Electric+Outboard +Motor

If these follow the pricing curve of LCD screens - we could see them in the right range to compete with conventional ourboards...

[mbd]

Yeah, I realized it was only 2 HP and figured they made others - but in the video they said it could push a 29 foot 3500 lb sailboat (???) at 4 knots! :D

And OUCH on the price!

[ebb]

:eek: 8 years just went by!

2016 Torqeedo catalog lists a new Cruise 10, with "powerful propulsion like a
20hp combustion engine". R I G H T. Painful way to compare and sell EOBs.

Even without a tiller, this is a Torqeedo EOB that looks more like a 'combustion'
OB than a Triffid. Even has a cavitation plate. Hype is that the motor is sea-ready:
"Extremely robust design.. IP-67*.. Suitable for commercial use.. Power tilt.."
{see next post for confirmed price}

Electric outboards for sailboats have finally arrived(?) We'll see. Cruise 10.0R
Standard Shaft - 15.2". Long Shaft - 20.2". Extra LS - 25.2"... as long as it gets.
These 20 horse monsters weigh more than 100lbs. Wish Cruise 10 success,
especially at its breathtaking cost. Doesn't look like it has a tiller option. Steering
is remote + - 50 degrees. 48V Cruise 10 has 10,000 input watts, 5600 propulsive
power watts = 2.5 times Cruise 4 models. Very well may be too much ...and not
enough...for Ariel.
Missing from Torqeedo line is a robust lighter weight Cruise 6.5 (let's call it), 60-
70lb, (15 combustion hp), with an XXL 30.2" shaft length for our A/C motor well.

Torqeedo does not describe their 48V Cruise 4 with the word robust. Nor would
they call them impotent, weak or incapable. But in terms of having instant access
to control of a displacement sailboat in real world current, tide, wind, wave, and
dragging at anchor, Cruise 4 is right on the edge of being a trolling motor. Just
enough moxie to push a displacement 26 footer back into a quiet marina.
Coincidently, "C4R and associated remote throttle are protected against dirt and
water in line with protection type IP67." * Torqeedo C2-4 Manual.
(that quote: "in line with" sounds suspicious to me. ...Viz 'best we can do for you'
CRUISE is the operative word, we assume these EOBs are marketed for Cruisers.
Really?


ELCO. For awhile I was infatuated with Elco's new range of OBs: 5 - 7 and 9.9
("like combustion engine hp"). They are built using Yamaha OB frames whose
range includes a 25" extra long measured from clamp to the center of the prop
(or sometimes to the cavitation plate - we are never sure. OB 'shaft length' doesn't
seem standardized.) Our OB wells out on the end of our floats-- need every inch of
that extra (5") shaft length -- to stay buried in the water. Because my former 8-4
combustion is the same Yamaha frame as Elco 9.9hp (90lbs $4800^) is using and
had the XL shaft, this fool rushed in thinking Elco's did too. Nope, they don't do
XLong. First hand, had a buzy time extracting info from a salesman who seemed
to know diddly about his EOBs. - - - - -^same price as the Cruise10 = 20-25hp.
!mportant, Elco displays no IP Code numbers (Ingress Protection) that I can see.
They must be lake water pontoon EOBs. Bye Bye Elco Electric.


Only California dealer I've found with literacy in electric waterboat propulsion is
Electric Yachts of Southern California (Santa Barbara) Michael Gunning, propr.**
Emailed last week, mentioning interest in a more thrust-worthy motor that will
push and pull our heavy displacement hull around, when situations call for it.

Mike says, but don't quote him, that the Cruise 4 (was for littlegull a contender)
would be good for a lake but has reservations for its salt water use. (That was my
problem, because I was unable to pierce thru the hype - and could find no forum
discussion that champions the Cruise 4...for CRUISING! ...He continues by saying
Cruise 10 appears to have more power that can be taken advantage of and would
be good for a boat in the ocean or SFBay. (it's an arrow, but not approval.
As yet the Cruise 10 is not at the dealers.)

His company has converted several Pearsons using their ElectricYachtQuietTorque
inboard systems. Take it to mean he is familiar with the Alberg esthetic. Huge in
my case, because I want professional expertise for an electric inboard install. But,
there are a 100 good reasons to keep a petro-engine out of the cabin. Ten good
reasons to provide a happy environment for a horizontal electric motor - is just too
tight for me. So it's behind the cockpit for ole thunderhead. The over riding reason
is that the hole-in-hull with shaftlog and stuffing box never made it into the 20th
century. It always leaks. OK for lakes and inshore, but outofthequestion for a cruiser.

The price for the Cruise 10R will be around $4900***... for starters. Add 9.6kw of
lithium batteries and a 48V20Amp Charger (which if l...y will last the rest of my life) ,
solar, controllers, etc: A$TRONOMICAL. Excellent arguments that initial costs are
recovered in use, and eventually will end up even, or even less, compared with petro
systems. Perpetual environmental benefits of quiet, zero onboard/overboard stink and
pollution, easier maintenance are very Persuasive. But the new clean green systems
are ever changing, and pricey anyway you look at it. Burning fossil fuel NO MORE!

CRUISE 10.0
One thing for sure - for cruising - EOB must be saltwaterproof. Torqeedo boasts: IP67,
which is a standardization code for how dirt proof & waterproof a product actually is....
C10 trails the higherst grade: IP68.* Still, it means that if you drop a Cruise 10 in the
water and immediately snatch the 108.75 pounder out ... you got a lucky 67. Weighs
the same as the gas Yamaha 8-4, and that makes them awkward, clumsy, and too
ridiculously heavy for my kind of outboard. 110lb Cruise 10RXL shaft= 25".
Cruise 4RL shaft = 29". At 37.5lbs =1/3 the weight, 4" longer, 1/5th the power. sigh
Later EDIT 2/22/16
***Seems this price is 1/2 wrong...Boating World with a new products photoshot
announces that the Cruise10 is to be sold at $7999 ....beyond ro bust...disgust...

Plainly: Sight unseen, Cruise 10 is too heavy and unwieldy. 20hp would nice at times
but not at this weight. Cruise 4 is neither powerful nor robust enough to cruise with.
__________________________________________________ _____________________
**www.electricyachtssocal.com
M 626.298.2262
__________________________________________________ _____________________
* These IP numbers are what we look for when buying electrical fixtures and toys
(like radios, computers, phones, lights, epirbs, electric OBs) for boats. We will always
be more trusting of an IP68 over any lower number. Believe this grading is voluntary.
So we may trust testing like we trust manufacturers. We know where that leads to.
This is an International Standard, widely used in the EU. Doesn't include UV resistance.
IP Code = IP Rating Chart = Ingress Protection.
IP65 = 6 - totally protected against dust. 5 - protected against water jets for 15min.
IP66 = starboard 6 -protected against powerful water jets for 3 minutes.
IP67 = 7 - protected against immersion, 1 meter, for 30 mins under defined conditions.
IP68 = 8 - protected against long periods of immersion under pressure.
When you look up the code, there are finer explanations of numbers.
If you see no IP number, or it is lower than IP67, it's not for salt water use.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Torqeedo, over the years, garners a rotten reputation with cruisers relying on their
smaller motors in the real world. Here's a Travel 1003 ($2000+$1700 in 'accessories')
- IP67 - & 2yr warranty) used on an air boat for an active Pacific cruiser. EG, plastic &
aluminum casting breakage, water leaking into electronics, attempting repairs include
fruistrating instructions like 'ship back to factory in original packaging.' ...from Tonga!
Hope things have changed since 2012... Torqeedo essentially owns the market, but
imco has not arrived yet in real sunlight & salt water. http://twoatsea.com/torqeedo-
video, "see for yourselves"
If Torqeedo knew of this problem -- and they did! -- the right thing would have been
to arrange for a new one to be shipped immediately to this obviously legit skipper.
That's what you do. That is, unless there are a slew of dis-satisfied Torqeedo owners,
who might expect reimbursement as well. Since that didn't happen, and Torqeedo
makes no statement (that I know of) about alleged problems owners are having with
their disabled ohbees, we have to assume there are many more problems out there.
Too many for Torqeedo to acknowledge.

Water ingress is a Torqeedo design problem. Obviously an electric OB should NEVER
leak where vapor & fluid cannot be tolerated. IP68. Replacement O-rings & gaskets
should come with the unit when purchased and be part of regular maintenance to
validate or extend the warranty. Don't see this feature mentioned in their catalog.
__________________________________________________ ____________________
"People don't run out of dreams, People run out of time." Glen Frey RIP Eagles
"Don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." Carl Sagan

[ebb]

Boaters World is the first (that I've found) that has published this preposterous price
for a new Torqeedo Cruise 10. Not yet at the dealers as of the 3rd week, Feb. 2016.
Remember, this is most likely 1/3 of the cost of a fully accessorized 48V system that
includes lithium magnesium batteries.

$7999

(dollar-off sale)
Hard to take how far the dollar has scrunk in value, against the euro. Aiming this 110lb
as-good-as 20hp electric OB at the cruise market requires some deluxe words too.
You'll find it yourself. Meantime here's some highlights of the latest introductory hype:

new flagship model
20 horsepower equal gas outboard
emission free
up to 9mph displacement-hulled boats up to 10 tons
clean, green and quiet
simplicity
easy handling
low-voltage system
electronically commutated brushless DC motor
optimized propeller
12kW at peak input - 10kW of continuous power
48-volt outboard
integrated electric tilt
easily mounts to vessel's remote steering
available in 3 shaft lengths
compatible with smartphone app, TorqTrac
GPS mapping data in real time
and in full color
tiller steering in 2017.

Close to what they boast for this elitist $400 per equivalent horse outboard.

Missing, of course, is the lifetime warranty.
And an announcement of world-wide roving factory-trained technicians who will travel
anywhere, even Tonga, to find your boat and fix the damn thing... for a modest fee.:D

This is an in-water motor: "Very robust design -- protected from corrosion, saltwater
capable, and completely waterproof (IP67)" How absolute is your complete?
Cruise 10 needs "at least four 26-104 lithium batteries" ($2599 each). Might as well
throw in the $2349 AC 2hr fast charger (for a charger????) Reg 10hr AC = $599
$7999.00 plus lithium batteries, accessories = 2.5 rehabilitated Ariels = $22,000

Estimated flatwater run times: Slow = 7-8kph = 35.2sm = Runtime 8 1/3hrs.
-----------------------------Full throttle = 32 kph = 13.7sm = Runtime 48 minutes.
minus headwind, current, waves, state of batteries. temp. Knotsperhour is translated
differently for a fullkeel sailboat. As some have pointed out, these run times and fuel
use does not compare favorably back to an actual 20hp combustion OB.

OceanVolt Saildrive props freewheel and contribute charge back to batteries when not
pushing. No Torqeedo does this. If they did.. probably pop as much as OV = $40,000!!

'Remote throttle and remote steering' may not be necessary, as motor is accessible.

"Limited warranty" is 2 years from date of purchase. Assume from that limited
length of time that Torqeedo can only give a limited guarantee to a product whose
true nature is too untrustworthy to warrant longer or unlimited assurances of quality.
We're talking about the usual manufacturing defects, not owner induced wear & tear.
To be psychologically acceptable for me, the buyer, it ought to be at least 5, 8 or 10
years of thumbs up pride. And Lifetime Warranty is what you give one of your own!

LIMITED is perhaps the truth about these non-CRUISE, non-affordable motors.
(more I think about it, the more I believe Torqeedo has missed the boat.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

Ya wouldn't think so, but I'm often at a loss for words these days. Know you guys
think ebb's crazy. World's gone south... is my defense. Bon mots by the famous
really help sometimes, clear the oppressive air when sanity goes overboard. Some-
times purveyors of apt elucidations great and small, flay open a po' sailor's shock
armor... when he's been under the hood checking out fashionable, environmentally
friendly, and outrageous overpriced EOBs. A cut from Shakespeare to the rescue:

'Now, the rotten disease of the south,
the guts-gripping ruptures, catarrhs,
loads o' gravel i' the back, lethargies, cold
palsies, raw eyes, dirt-rotten livers, wheezing
lungs, bladder full of imposthume, sciaticas,
limekilns i' the palm, incurable bone-ache, and the
rivelled fee-simple of the tetter, take and take
such preposterous discoveries.' Troilus & Cressida


'take that ya dirty yellow-bellied rat!' James Cagney Taxi! 1932

.................................................. .................................................. ........................
Outrageous Will Shakespeare died 400 years ago in 1616. He probably never visited
Starnberg, Bavaria, in the Five Lakes Country of the south in Germany nr Munich....
where we assume Torqeedo has their facility. (but these days it could be China)

Bit of a stretch to link Will with Torqeedo and the writer here. Starnberg today in
2016 is known as the wealthiest city in Germany. And it is as far south in Germany as
you can get inland from the North Sea, where Scandanavian saltwater abounds.

My theory is that Torqeedo tests their IP67s only in the local fresh 5 Lakes water
on summer days, and never travel cross country to actually test electric OBs in salt.
This is why we hear from farflung bluewater sailors about Ingress Protection failures,
impairments, incapacities. defects and disabilities with their wealthy OB clients.*

*Raised the relationship of Torqeedo ownership to professional/client, because this
pricey motor requires assets, services and ingenuity of an owner to keep it functional.
This coupled with forum complaints about disinterested service from Torqeedo
factory repair. Imco, a defective motor must be immediately replaced FOC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

CRUISE 4.0T long shaft
All-Sail Boat Show 2016 at the Craneway Pavilion & MarinaBayYachtHarbor in
Richmond CA. Imco a big step down from JackLondonSquareAlameda. Seemed to
be fewer vendors in the converted WWII warehouse. Everybody seemed more
uncomfortably temporary. Went opening day, poorly signed, $10 parking planned
to make you walk or bus the furthest distance from the event as possible. Spent
time with the Torqeedo dealer/rep RuckmarineElectricSportboats.** Knew his stuff.
And pointed out that in 2015 Torqeedo made significant upgrades to their EOBs.
Of course this is a salesman at a boatshow strutting his stuff, but came off genuine.
The torqeedo part (underwater motor housing) has been upgraded on C4 to
aluminum. The prophub, if fishing leader gets caught, will now cut the line. Orange
prop is still plastic, but called composite. And the motor has a breakaway for when
hit from ahead. Touched the Cruise4T... by golly! I like the tiller model, the tiller
can be immediately removed & replaced. Had other issues that limited interview,
had to leave early. Harbor and boats in a different location, but not a sign where!

SO, IF I was back to a Cruise4.0T... WITH two required (motor and battery talk to
one another) Power 26-104 house lithiums and bare accessory total (not including
extra $24 screw-on sacrificial anodes and more than one spare propeller)
... looking at $14,000
8horse combustion equivalent EOB. $4348.00, plus all the stuff to make it work.

**Not knocking Mr Ruck, BUT Torqeedo is still exclusively aiming their Cruise4T
at airboats, runabouts, small open boats. There seems to be no effort to find a
cozy niche in the sailboat auxiliary OB market... for boats like our Ariels. No sail
is featured in any brochure showing photos of solar panels, cockpits & C4.0's.
Told that improvements come from the professional rental industry, which is hard
on equipment. Feedback from individual cruisers and their dealers is probably
minimal, imco, or not quickly taken seriously by T. research & development. 2016
Cruise4.0T longshaft, "Solid aluminum(AlMgSi1) lower unit provides improved
protection from impact damage, corrosion(Comprehensive galvanic corrosion
protection), fishing lines and debris. Cruise4.0 delivers the propulsive power
of an 8hp and the thrust of a 9.9hp combustion OB...". "Recommended for
dinghies and sailboats up to four tons." (how do those two share the same
sentence?) Have yet to see or hear of a single cruiser with a Cruise4.0.


Ruckmotors can put a cruising package together for us... and cut the list prices.
This is something that Jamestown, Defender and WM are not able to do.
(have no dealings with this vendor yet) Really dislike auto hype tv ads that sell
their products with smoking tires & excessive speed. Torqeedo ads are similar
in that the motors are always shown at full throttle, and impressive bow wave,
just speed, not ven featuring the motor perse... just the wake, just the drug.
Why would I put Cruise4T in littlegull's motor well??

Maybe, if we see through the hype of 'propulsive power' and 'thrust', it might be,
since Torqeedo doesn't really feature it as a sailboat auxiliary , that there really is
not enough ACTUAL power, thrust and TOUGHNESS in the Cruise 4.0T or R for a
displacement sailboat like Ariel and Commander. That's what I fear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

Winston Churchill says: "Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage
to continue that counts."
And a deep pocketkbook... that counts a lot. ...And strong dark ale ev'now-n-again.

imco

[ebb]

USE THE M746 RULE
I could paraphrase the quote below. But here is the whole faq answer...
Hope a direct quote is not some infringement of a copyright.

Torqeedo (ebb-problem OB motor company) is leaving thrust for lust-after-electric-speed,
so it seems to be the direction they are taking the company. The line is blurring, but
easy to see, because 99% of recreational OB motoring is about speed, not work, not sail.
But this little formula from an electric trolling motor manufacturer is quick and neat...
Wish I knew about it when I first started looking at electric OBs.

__________________________________________________ ______________________
http://www.minnkotamotors.com/
"How does horsepower compare to thrust? How do I convert thrust into horsepower?

Many people think that the more pounds of thrust they are getting, the faster the boat will
go. This is not exactly true. With trolling motors and outboard motors, boat speed (and
acceleration) depends on horsepower and prop pitch. By changing prop pitch, you can
trade acceleration for top speed. Our trolling motors have props designed for maximum
acceleration. When you hit the power, the boat responds immediately. This also allows
you to hold the boat in high wind conditions. Top speed with our motors and props is
about 5 mph. Small boats will reach this speed with most of our motors. Larger boats
require our largest motors to approach this speed. Comparing our motors to gasoline
outboards is difficult because most outboard props are designed for much higher speed.

Although there is no direct correlation of thrust to horsepower you can approximately
calculate the horsepower rating of any electric motor:

Just multiply motor amp draw times voltage to find wattage of the motor.
Wattage divided by 746 will give you the horsepower rating of the motor.
(746 watts equals 1 HP)"

(This ends the direct quote from minnkotamotors.)
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Pretty neat tool. Where does the 746w divisor come from? I'm very sure this number
is a closely guarded secret and never should have been revealed to the public.

Minnkota is an electric OB motor company, located in Fargo, North Dakota - where I
don't believe people have any need to lie. Rather trust their approximation formula for
comparing electric motors with gasoline motors.
In the previous post, talked about the only product I found that might be a candiate for
an electric OB on my Ariel. Cruise 4.0 48v has numbers that seem twice as powerful as
the Cruise 2.0 24v. And another boast... Quote from the product specs:

"Cruise 4.0 Input power in watts = 4000
Propulsion power in watts........ = 2240
Comparable petrol outboard..... = 9.9hp"
(really...?)

Using the M746 Rule here: 2240 watts divided by 746(watts in 1hp) equals 3hp.

Doing it right... right? So, what the heck is Torqeedo saying? How do they get their
"comparable petrol outboard" data -- comparing apples from the same crate of apples
...yes? Do they tank test electric and petrol engines side by side? BET they never did
that: actually test? So 9.9hp petrol motors are more than 300% more uber in Germany
than in Minn kota North Dakota. ...or is that less powerful? The M746 Rule says the
Torqeedo Cruise 4.0
is the equivalent of a THREE HORSEPOWER GASOLINE OUTBOARD.

There are a lot more-smart skippers than I who already figured out Cruise 4.0 isn't a
9.9 Yamaha. The web reveals no cruiser using Cruise4.0 for their main propulsion. This
is a sad state of affairs. Torqeedo has no competitor ...in the English speaking world.
And there is no electric motor manufacturer anywhere that has tough, quality, reliable,
waterproof electric outboards in the 8 to 20 HP range. For the offshore cruiser market.
There must be a huge number of cruisers and small commercial workboat and fishermen
who are waiting for what has just been described, even with $$$$$ lithium 48v tanks.

WE NEED THAT COMPETITOR, NOW

Even if we use the eyepopper 4000watts input power, we get only a 5.36hp compare.
What does that mean anyway? 4000w minus 2240w = 1760 watts lost somewhere...?
Is there really a lie here? Where exactly is it? Is Minnkota's conversion tool wrong?
Or is this the way German electric outboards are sold? Assume it is not possible to
misrepresent wattage to curry more auspicious HP numbers?? Mean to admit I was
very impressed with the Cruise4.0/ 9.9 comparison... as sure I am I was meant to be!!

Add another formula: Divide Torqeedo gasoline outboard equivalencies by 3 to get an
actual figure, afterall, it is the manufacturer's site, where you expect exaggeration.

I want a video of Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 tested side by side on one model of two boats
with a Yamaha 9.9 4stroke and a high thrust prop.
And also a Cruise 4.0 on the end of a 4ton sailboat*, as they state in their literature.
Maybe get a second 4ton model and run em through the same manoeuvers together.
Compare cost, too. Videos of skiffs and airboats with bow waves and pooompahpah
music, doesn't do it for me.

Instead of electric motor companies referring to equivalent gasoline HP, maybe we can
refer to MinnKota's 746 rule of HP equivalency: The M746 Rule,
instead of a manufacterer's unsubstantiated cross comparison with combustion HP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
*It's not necessary to take this tomfoolery any further. But Pearson A/C sit somewhere
between 2.5 and 3 tons. We now have simple evidence, data (a fact, if you will):
Torqeedo's 48v (3HP) Cruise 4.0 is totally under powered for any sailboat...
except a daysailor, perhaps.
Cruise 10.0 "propulsive power 5600w" divided by (746 equals 1hp) = 7.5HP
T. "Comparable petrol outboards (thrust) 20HP". Assume thrust = propulsive power.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

"First one tells a lie, then one believes it, then one becomes it." Marty Rubin

[ebb]

It's obvious that ebb knows little about electrics in general, and therefor should not be
talking about these tools without feedback. Ceased wondering about discussion now
that I understand younger readers can only grasp 140 digits of thought at a time. ebb
represents a huge age/gender gap with a huge soggy old style of writing. It's what I
do. Can't change. Sorry the writing engenders no response...

Who's interested in electric OBs? We outboard motor well boat owners are. We know
pretty much which gasoline motor works for us: 5hp, 6, 7, 8hp - after that the motors
get unwieldly and too heavy for the back of an A/C. If you had an Atomic 4 you can
option for electric There are a number of businesses specializing in interior electric
motor sales & installation, the conversion is easy. Initial cost astronomical.
Expense for new diesel, tanks, and accessories is about the same for electric, controller,
batteries and charger. Missing is the gagging smell of fuel, presence of oil, exhaust,
noise and maintenance... I chose the electric OB, before doing thoro research. Now
it seems the main ascendant OB supplier, Torqeedo is a poor choice viz expense, not
enough power, poor warranty, system leaks and breakdowns. None of that is
acceptable for sailboat cruising -- where a tough, knockabout, DEPENDABLE motor is
essential. Torqeedo doesn't respond to feedback:
"if you don't like our outboards don't buy them."

Which leads me back to ELCO. Elco has the oldest experience with inboard
electric motors, going back more than 120 years. Their entering into the electric OB
market is very new. Read a three year old Trade interview, where we meet the 53
year old present owner, who dreams of 500HP IBs. He does seem to hold on to the
original use of outboards for work and fishing... they hadn't come out with 15 or 25hp
yet when interviewed. New EP-14 and EP-20 have 10" props, instead of eggbeaters,
that are more oriented toward thrust. But they do not have the essential extra long
(25") but a compromise 22.5". Don't say if their comparable rating to the petrol HP
includes a high thrust propeller.
Maybe about 4 years. They are still in a development stage, while adding more
horsepower motors to their stable. I've decided to restart an involvement with them.
Elco seems rather inept at getting their OBs noticed. There's one YouTube
accompanied by loud music. None of their range introduced. They seem to be on
the same tangent as Torqeedo, going for the speed market. At the moment there
is no effort at all to get their smaller OBs exposure. The 9.9hp comparable electric
OB is shown on video pushing light-weight skiffs around on windless flat calm water.
There is no comparable equality to what we know a 10 horse combustion engine
high thrust prop is capable of. Nothing for sailboats except a couple words in passing.

Their motor is a PMAC brushless that sits up top in a 'traditional' combustion OB
housing. Out of the water. So I don't know if after the stated longevity promise, that
the motor is a throwaway. Like Torqeedo you can't fix it in your cockpit.

So the 746 number is common and no way secret. May have overstepped something
the specs don't mention -- when I started dividing the horsepower to watt divisor into
the propulsive watt figure stated in the specs -- and got amazingly low HP figures for
motors doing work.
The formula in the previous post requires using the motor amp draw number to
find wattage. Motor amp draw requires, maybe, the motor to read it off a plate. It's
not used by Elco. The three OBs I'm now interested in are the newer (equivalent)
HP rated electric 20hp, 14hp and the ubiquitous 9.9hp. Found that brushless PMAC
motors have under load a high efficiency factor of 80 to 90%. Used .85 times the
spec input watts to get "propulsive power" numbers for the motor actually working.
This looks OK... Just generating some reasonable numbers. 1hp = 746w.
EP-20 20HP -- 7920W. x.85 (propulsion power) = 6732W divided by 746 = 9HP
EP-14 14HP -- input power(watts) = 6240W x .85 = 5304 divided by 746 = 7HP.
EP-9.9 9.9HP -- 4800W. x.85 = 4080W divided by 746 = 5.5HP.

So, of course, trying to find a working number. Also when comparing to a combustion
HP, is that number as stated on-the-box rating. Or do we allow for a .85 working
number? One that we calculate automatically for a more realistic picture? .85 of 20
= 17. .85 of 14 = 12. .85 of 9.9 = 8.4. Just checking... the more realistic numbers
come from wattage. What this looks like is that the "COMPARABLE GAS/PETROL
RATING" is pumped up to twice what we can actually get from our electric outboard.

What we have is a company creating an absolute fact that their EP (electric propulsion)
- 14 has the same power as a "Comparable gas/petrol rating 14hp. They have this in
words, but are unable to present it in trivial actions seen in YouTube advertising.

There is a real problem here when choosing an outboard. These OBs run on 48v -- 12v
in series of 4, which may not have the amps to power or have extremely short run
time.. Meaning more series of fours are required. There is a real jump in input rate
watts, if i'm considering a jump in horsepower, just to get a closer match to Ariel's
displacement. May not be found so easily in the battery backup.

For cruising, for tight turns in the marina, what hp outboard do you want? Thinking of
the currents, tides and winds on SFBay. When coastal, what do I really want?
I sold my Yamaha 8hp high thrust motor. As I get older will I'd be better off with a
9.9hp, combustion (also over 100lbs)?
Now I'm seeing equivalencies are quite over stated by both electric motor companies.
It looks like I should choose the EP-20(95lbs) with its adjusted HP at an actual 9hp??
All these numbers are approximations anyway. Actual power may be way less, when the
boat really calls out for auxiliary help.
Have to figure out the juice, number minutes runtime, in batteries one can be happy with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

We are given the equivalencies for a comparable hp petrol motor. 1hp = 746w:
9.9 x 746 = 7385.4(w) --- 14 x 746 = 10444(w) --- 20 x 746 = 14920(w). These are
fictitious watts, but goes to show that if the familiar convertor is used on Elco spec gas
equivalents, they have a much higher watt quantity. Which doesn't explain the
discrepancy. There are no real numbers to support Elco's combustion engine
equivalencies. If what they say is unsupported, then what they say is hype. :"We're
not willfully misleading you, old man, we're just making an approximate comparison with
everyday portable petrol motors." My point is, it's so far off, it's not funny. Elco has a
few angled photos of their motors. They seem to use one or two images for all their
models. So what you are looking at, isn't what you are looking at. They haven't a single
measured diagram of any of the motors. We don't know how or where they measure
shaft length. They do not talk about what's inside the cowl, nor what their IP is.
All (5 or 6) OB models are 48v.. The lithium revolution is here. There is essentially
nothing in the website about the marriage. Called up what I thought was the lithium
side of the equation: Lithionics Battery getlithium.com/ ...and it is a battery company
that has barely heard of Elco!
And so I'm thinking, what a half fast company Elco is!!!

Their YouTubes are inadequate, suspiciously amateurish, and for a sailboater, useless.

You really have to ask: WHERE ARE THE ELCO OUTBOARDS?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

"What we're supposed to do is live up to our better instincts." ChrisChristopherson

[Caferacer59]

Any chance you can condense this into a tweet :cool:

[ebb]

Sorry! Sorry for the dig.
And the presentation. FEEDBACK could make it shorter and more interesting. The dawn
of 100% electric sailboats is here. Electric OBs will have a small and hopefully significant
place in this revolution.

We already have Commanders, and I know of some local Alberg fleet who've converted to
electric inboards. Be interesting to find out if there is a movement afloat. Some literary
tech should write an in depth article (maybe they have already) about it.

Maybe it's time for an International Marine DIY book on the subject written by a younger
generation NigelCalder or DonCasey. "Electrify Your Float" "All Electric Round the Globe".

I write out of frustration, for lack of information or public interest. The internet seems
hugely flawed, sometimes more like a garbage dump of information, (all of it For Sale),
sometimes with some absolute gems in the art of passionate boat-tech communication.

This may be the wrong forum for what I do. What I do just happens. Probably because
I been taken by hype so many times. Don't trust them who go to great lengths to separate
me from my money. By playing my expectations with products they know won't deliver.
Or they don't have the imagination or ethics to backup products when problems show up.

My interest is in cruising. That's what I mean about wrong forum. We must have, to
venture offshore, a different frame of reference. I've seriously looked into Torqeedo.
Imco they haven't left their fresh water lakes, launches and runabouts in Germany.
Don't believe it's possible to have world class outboards made of plastic. Don't know if
my observations are authentic for you and others. If they prove embarrassing it all
can be erased. Rather be reading someone who knows more about the subject than I.

And I'm just about ready to jump on Elco. Because, this is the age of clean energy. And
if you are flogging electric outboards, they better be ready for saltwater and longevity.
They have to graduate from their trolling heritage also.
Nobody has looked critically at 48v Elco outboards. Nobody has even looked under
the hood. Nobody has checked out the Lithium battery connection. Nobody's checked
out whether the motors and props can actually propel a displacement sailboat.
Nobody has any interest in the PMAC alternating current brushless motor and the
convertor that sits next to it under the cowl. Why the hell not???



There you go: running on, again!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

roythomas generously clued me into to this sailing couple's website:
http://www.sailinguma.com/electro-beke/#why-electric

Captain Dan, assume he does the tech writing, for all his youth must be a professor of
something - in actuality. Even tho his electric motor came from eBay, and everything
except bats cost a total of $1400, it seems to silently waft his Pearson 36, quietly and
without a single problem into the future. Impressive. His motor is inboard, but he has
interesting things to share (and he means that) about the mysterious power source.

OK, so I can't proceed without stealing a quote about how a combustion motor can be
compared with an electric motor which "use their energy and torque curves differently."
According to Dan's research, a 1hp combustion engine "can push 500lbs of displacement
to hull speed in calm conditions. Now, the sources disagree a little here, but as a rule of
thumb a 1hp electric motor can push about 3 - 3.5 times more displacement than its
petrol equivalent. So a 1hp electric motor, drawing 750w, can push about 1500lbs of
displacement.
Our boat {'UMA'} displaces 13,000lbs. So 13,500 / 1500 = 9hp electric motor.
Now 1hp (of electric) draws about 750 watts. So, 9hp x 750w = 6.75kW electric motor."
(thanks, Dan. Will add his moniker as soon as I find it.)

This is meant to help illuminate just what is comparable with a petrol engine. There still
will be discrepancies in the OB motor's case, as (I assume) Dan's figures are for inboards
with significantly larger flat pitch props.)
Have a feeling that OB manufacturer's electric/ combustion equivalencies are skewed
toward making sales, as what norms they use for comparisons are not standardized. So,
Elco's "EP-9.9 with 9.9HP" is essentially meaningless on all points. For instance: Elco
names Torqeedo as their main adversary, yet publishes no electric OB comparison
testing. Elco YouTube exposure is totally inadequate. Elco, without prior notification
has dropped their 5 & 7 HP motors. Available now are only the 9.9, 14, and 20 HP EPOB.

If you are building a base of loyal customers, Elco looks like it has completely missed the
boat. For instance, it's critical that sailboat OB motors have at least the traditional
25" EXTRA LONG SHAFT -- not what their new offer is: 22.15" from clamp to some
unknown point relative to the prop. Elco provides no measure diagrams of their 3
remaining outboards. {Yamaha gasoline motor shaft length is measured from the clamp to
the bottom of the cavitation plate.}
And certainly, after a voice-over explains that an electric motor's rumbling & whining along
at full speed is not the motor's sweet spot... which dramatically conserves power... is the
quiet running, dependable windless power a customer wants to hear on a video demo.
...As he imagines getting his upgraded boat back to the marina after the wind drops.

Dropping motors from manufacture without notification is what a manufacturer would
do if the company is in trouble, and takes this extreme measure to stay in business,
and to appear to be healthy, but actually trimming back on variety and labor. There is no
indication, that I've found, that these Elco electric OBs are not wholesale imports from
the orient. In fact they look a lot like Parsun's.* Which is not to say they aren't excellent
products, but just another deliberate missing piece of transparency.
* If these Elco EP-OB's are indeed direct imports, It explains the apparent hands-off
distance the video spokes person seems to have for these motors, spouting banality
rather than familiarity and pride with a great new product. For myself, an interested
new customer, Elco is not enthusiastically reaching out to me. Actions, transparency,
attitude speak louder than the usual hype. Elco might consider revamping their
outboard motor web site with full disclousures and a series of new YouTubes.
Let it all hang out with energy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
SALESMEN AREN'T PROBLEM SOLVERS
Later EDIT 3/2017: Filled out a come-on form on an Elco site and got an email back.
Pitch was for inboard. Wrote back, pretending first timer, explaining my sailboat OB
problem, asking and offering to pay for custom work. for an extra long. Very short email
back, telling me the extra-long in the industry is known as a sailboat OB, and "No." can't
do it. Quick look 6 page deep for sail forums per Elco on google = none. Bassboat and
pontoon sites plus trade mags come up with absolutely nothing for sail. There still is 'No'
discussion (talk back-n-forth) of Elco OBs in any mode on the net. Who is buying them?

ELCO DOES NOT BRAG THAT THEIR OBs ARE MADE IN THE USA
Asked if their electric motors were imported from ParsunPowerMachineCoLtd Suzhou,
China, which my contact ignored. The cowl looks Parsun to me. Parsun has a foothold
in the US. but has not Americanized. They say many of their 'parts' are western that
makeup their many motors.
They make them all, including an extra long kerosene 9.8, 9.9 and 14hp. But not an
extra long 'sailboat' electric. Elco's stated 22 1/2" long seems like some sort of anomaly.
Parsun and Elco tot no IP numbers like Torqeedo. Of course the T electric motors are
under water, not up top.
Both PARSUN and ELCO should get their language difficulties together. And give Torqeedo
a run for the electric highthrust sailboat market emerging in the US.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~


'ATTITUDE is the difference between an ordeal and an adventure.' Bob Btchin