A leap forward into the future...

[Commander 147]

I for one am drawn to the Pearson Commander because of it's classic lines and general good looks. That is not the only reason that I am attracted to this boat but my personality is one that believes in keeping one foot in the past and the other firmily planted in the future. I believe that if we are afraid to change then we will become extinct. So knowing that about me you will understand the rest of my post.

I believe the futue for aux power is electric. I do not believe we are quite there yet, but we are close to the point where we can do away with the smelly, noisey, engines we currently use for aux. power and switch to clean, quite, electric power that will make those times when we are forced to rely on aux. power a lot less disagreeable.

Knowing this about me my friend who I have a great deal of respect for suggested to me the other day that the Commander would be a good boat to try out the currently available electric drives on. So I thought I would bring this idea to all of you who know these boats much better than I and get your comments on this idea.

First please take the time to check out this website and read about the electric drive I think is the closest to becoming the ideal replacement for conventional inboard drives.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_6000.pdf

Then please give me your feedback and tell me what you think is good, bad and ugly about this as an option for these fine sailing machines.

[c_amos]

Looks like a nice system. The motor technology has really come a long way with these systems, and removing an Atomic 4 should make plenty of room for batteries.... you should still come out ahead.

Captn K, an Ariel owner has a great site that is a nice companion to this one. SailFar.net is dedicated to small boat cruising.

There is a guy there 'Oliver twist' who has installed a similar system the 're-epower 3000'. He has been happy with it so far, and continues to update us on his testing. It is more like a saildrive version of the Asmo, but has re-generative 'braking' to charge while sailing.

Here is a link to the thread on electric propulsion. I think the posts on the re-epower start on page 2 of this thread;

Eric's electric propulsion & other electric motor discussion (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=100.0)

[Commander 147]

to see how things actually work out for him. I had seen the re-epower 3000 site previously but I was not as impressed with the way the motors installed as I am with the THOOSA 6000. They do appear to function in a similar manner so the actual experience of Oliver Twist will be something I certainly want to follow. Thank you for pointing me in that direction.

Oh and BTW I read your post on the end of that thread. I appreciate your efforts in helping me to locate a Commander also. :)

[ebb]

A 'thousand thanks' in Swedish. A common scandinavian expression.

The Thoosa 6000.... I wonder how expensive this unit (and accessories) is?
Two tusen, maybe three tusen bucks? More?
There's already an electric outboard on the market. I wonder how they compare?

Here, we did discuss briefly the electric OB and at that time the problem seemed to be the weight and space requirement for the dedicated batteries.
Not so much the power requirement but how long you can run the motor.
What's the minimum you'd want at full bore? 4 hours?
The gas OB goes long and far with a relatively small fuel requirement.

4 stroke is greener than 2 stroke - but not as green as electric. At least on the face of it.
How much extra weight in lead batteries would you have to haul?
Doesn't seem feasible for a cruiser. Yet.
Electric motors sound OK for weekend sailing.
The propeller recharge function while sailing sounds great. How efficient is it?
Cruisers require flexibility, at times have to depend on a motor for long periods
and in dire straits.

May have to wait for some innovative battery technology to come along to partner with these motors.

The tradeoff might be the life of the batteries (the other half of the electric motor) and having to replace those regularly.
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A little 10 horse diesel that runs on canola oil might be the ticket.

[Commander 147]

Part of the reason I mentioned in my original post that I don't believe we are quite to the point where these electric motors make sense is because the market place for vendors in this stuff is not large enough to get the economy of scale so the prices are still very high. For example you would pay just over $6,000.00 for the electric drive for a Commander or Ariel.

I believe the inboard version would be significantly more efficient than the outboard. And if you were replacing an inboard that had given up the ghost your weight including the batteries for the electric drive would be a little bit less than the old engine and associated fuel.

I think you are right that the battery technology needs to improve to make these more viable. However because of the current push for electric cars there are some strides being made in that area. This is a link to a news article I read this morning about that subject.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080916143910.htm

As far as the efficency of the recharging using the prop while sailing, the manufacturer makes this statement
The power charged when regenerating, depends of the cruising speed and the size of the propeller, and it is therefore very difficult to give charging rates. To indicate how much power is charged, our test shows that recharging for 1/2 hour at 5-6 knots, normally equals the power used for harbour maneuvering. They also claim that you will loose .2 knots in speed while recharging as you sail. Of course they might be somewhat optomistic in their claims

As far as the distance you can go this is what they have to say.
How much motoring time does Asmo Marine’s systems provide ? http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/images/spacer.gifMotoring is limited only by cruising speed and the size of the battery bank. The distance that can be achieved by our solutions, depends on the boat drag, the size of the battery bank and the speed when motoring.

The figure below, shows the approximate distance covered with a Thoosa 6000 solution in calm weather, in a 33 feet sailboat, with a displacement of 3500 kilo.http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/images/am_ikon_tiltop.gif (http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#)
http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/images/am_prod_batt_spec.gif

[ebb]

Comander willbe,
Guess the Danes would name a motor for the $$$$$$$$ it costs.
THOOSA $6000 is totally insane! If I get your drift.
Motor and accessories weigh 21#. Pound to cost ratio must be close to NASA's.

Like I say, and that's only half the motor!
(Assuming 4 or 5 accessories and the prop are included in your estimate....)
You got 48V more to go in cost and weight and their installation. Time and materials. Beyond expensive.

This really looks like a concept,
how can they have raised capital to manufacture this? Is it in production?
Any installation pics? Testimonials?

Even if they put together a package for EVERYTHING, all the trinkets, only three blockheads will ever actually buy this thing, imco.

[Commander 147]

ebb

Here is a link to the six testimonials on the ASMO website.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/02.shtml

You know I think it is all about the amount of money someone has and how much of that they are willing to spend on their passions knowing full well they will never see a return on the money spent. I know people that think nothing of spending $6,000.00 on a vacation knowing full well all they will have when it is over is the memory. ;)

[mbd]

This really sounds like an intriguing idea. I'm hoping that when my little Yanmar gives up the ghost, things will have progressed enough (i.e. it's more affordable OR I have the money) that I can pursue a repower along these lines. Of course, I have MANY more projects to tackle and afford before that happens - hopefully. :) In any event, thanks for the links. Food for thought as winter closes in...

[ebb]

Testimonials do show at least four squareheads, one blockhead and a roohead, who evidently have installed a Thoosa $motor.

From C'willbe's source above: there appears to be only one US dealer: NGC Marine Products
http://ngcmarine.com
On their Tech Corner page is this interesting weight comparison:
Thoosa System - 66 Lb.............................Diesel Engine - 302 Lb
Batteries ------- 508 Lb..........................25 gal fuel tank-176 Lb
----------------574 Lb...........................2 batteries-----122 Lb
.................................................. ..............................600 Lb


HERE"S A REALITY CHECK:

Thoosa $6000 - now only $6443
Charger--------$600
Throttle - $300 to $1200
Coupling - $220
AGM 92A - $153 (x 8) $1224 (replace every 5 years)

TOTAL - $8787 to $9687. Not including tax and shipping and what ever was left out like shaft, shaft log, propeller, gauges, wiring, incidental materials, and labor.
Est, $2000 - $4000.

To compare running costs you have to figure fuel costs for the diesel vs battery and charging costs for the electric motor system. Includes most likely $olar panels and guages, perhaps a wind generator, and life expectancy of the cells ($250 per year.) Not including regular maintenace and parts to keep either system going.:eek:
I would question whether you can keep 8 Group 27 AGMs in a 48V system charged using solar panels alone on an Ariel. A gas generator may be needed. You'd want a bimini frame over the cockpit to mount the panels on - and no doubt have to find lighter more expensive PVs. It may be necessary to have a dedicated system for the motor, meaning that another battery bank would be needed for boat lights and electronics.
imco you can only go with SEALED AGM batteries if you are living with ten little piggies in the acommodation.
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Please,
I'm not knocking the concept. No fuel smell, nearly silent running, no pollution, light weight engine, reliability, low maintenance, easy part replacements and simplicity are to-die-for features compared to even a new Beta diesel. The unbelievable money involved is probably comparable to repowering with a new diesel system. Whether you can take a Yamaha OB (my choice) to sea is arguable compare with a snug inboard.
The necessary batteries could probably be designed into the Ariel standard accommodation by raising the settees and arranging the batteries along the
aisle to keep their weight over the keel.

[Commander 147]

I appreciate your honest opinion. And I do agree that the cost is too high currently to make this an option we could all run out and take advantage of. However it is nice to see that there is "An" option out there that could possibly take the place of the gas or desiel engine. That makes it hopeful that we will have another option that would be more cost effective in the not to distant future.

I got the impression you believe if the cost was not crazy high that this setup would be a viable option to the desiel engine. Did I get the right impression or the wrong one?

[Rico]

we should all be encouraged that this is available at all... We have to start somewhere!!

I remember running into a dining room table-sized computer at a boeing plant during a refurbishment. I was packed as it came from the factory, but it was 30 years old!

It had something like 64 BYTES (not Kilo, mega, or giga) of internal memory and featured a monochrome display and one floppy drive (of the actual floppy kind!)!!!!

The price tag: $10K+ in 1970's money.

Silly, for home use at that time... Most definitely. But a necessary step in the process of progress!

I realize as I type this on my tiny laptop with 500Gigs + of memory, working on a battery that lasts close to 5 hours, that is often the squareheads, blockheads and rooheads that pave the way for the rest of us...

[ebb]

Hmmmmm....

In 1883 the 32' VOLTA crossed the English Channel and back again in 8 hrs.
In 1889 there were 6 electric charter boats on the Thames.
In 1893 Kerby Bowen patented an electric auxilliary engine for sailboats with batteries in the keel.

New, back then.

If Thoosa had come out with a motor that charged the batteries while it was running maybe THAT would be worth $6000.
If Thoosa had a motor that could run directly from PVs THAT would be a step forward.
If Thoosa 6000 was $3000, then it would become interesting.

What's impressive about a 30# electric motor that costs $6000 and has to have an owner supplied 600# lead/acid fuel tank to make it run? That's the problem. It's not a big deal. The most impressive thing about it is Thoosa's swollen price. And why isn't the throttle, battery monitor and charge controller included in the package?

If not a scam it's a sham.
It's a damn shame these artists are Danes.:o
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Back in June this year a marine products dealer in Japan bought an 18# black Densuke watermelon for $6000. He said he wanted to support local agriculture.
OK guys, do your part to support the Danish melon business!
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Hey Rico, Talking with a couple guys at lunch, this subject came up. Mike took the example of a new hand held blood pressure monitor explaining that marketing research had discovered a "right price" for it. Consumers would be turned off if it was too cheap and conversely if priced too high. $120 proved to be the right price, it sold well, even tho the manufacturing cost was only $3.
I'm a squarehead, or maybe cheesehead is more appropriate, but I think this danish company did not do their research on pricing. Or maybe they priced according to what they thought a comparable diesel would cost a customer making a choice. If they had realistically priced their smallest Thoosa within the reach of those who can only afford a 20' to 30' sailboat then they might have a hot seller. $1200 would be about right. Even if they take a loss on it. They have to get it out there in quantity to get noticed.
I'd go for a comparably priced electric OB - that is comparable to the power and RANGE of a Yamaha 10 horse.