Commander 227

[Commander227]

My wife and I picked up this Commander in Milwaukee a few weeks ago and are doing a "quick and dirty" make over to get her in the water ASAP.
The sailing season is way too short here in Minnesota to dally. Over the winter we will give her a proper bottom job, repaint the freeboard and decks, install an Atomic 4 to replace the O.B. and build some cabnets in the cuddy. Until then; The glass under all 4 of the life line stanchions was damaged and the core was rotten. The bow pulpit was loose with minor rot. Sailing on inland lakes the life lines, bow and stern pulpits are not necessary and I think they wreck the pretty lines of the Commander so they will not be going back on. The head pump out and the cowl vent looked like they were never sealed and the core around them was very rotten. The cabin top was also quite soft and I think the forward hatch also wrecks the lines so we have to recore most of the cabin top. As we are going to be repainting the decks over the winter I'm not to concerned with preserving the original nonskid so I am doing most of the repairs from the top. I step drilled and filled nearly all the old hardware holes as We will be replacing most of the original hardware. Amazingly, the core around the chain plates is dry. The cuddy had to be completly sanded down as there was a badly peeling paint job inside. I'll post pics in allittle while.

[Commander227]

Some "before" pics

[Rico]

Congratulations!!

It is always nice to see more Commanders being rejuvenated!

I agree with you on the Pushpit, stanchions & lifelines. They are not complementary to Alberg's lines. The Mephisto Cat appears to have been fortunate to come out of the factory without any of these apendages. It does have a nice period pulpit (much like yours) and I do like the look of that...

Very nice work so far... Looking forward to more pictures. I am interested to see how your elimination of the forward hatch turns out. What will you do for ventilation / Light?

[commanderpete]

Very good!

The Commander goes Commando

Somebody around here would probably want to buy that pushpit

[carl291]

Commander 227, congratulations on your great find. You are very fortunate to purchase such a nice vessel. I would be very interested in purchasing your pulpit and possibly your pushpit. I'm working on an Ariel. Please keep me in mind if you desire to sell, I'm in no hurry. Thanks. Carl
My Email address is listed in profile

[Commander227]

We launched 227 yesterday and got in a couple of sails. Love the look and feel of her underway. I thought I could get by this season with the old main sail as it looked pretty good on the lawn, but it is pretty blown out and illshaped. The boat has more weather helm than I would like but I think its just the old sails draft being so far aft. I guess I gotta order one up. I have a new roller furling head sail but have not had a chance to build the furler yet. I'm not much of a fan of the outboard in the motor well, without being able to turn the outboard you really don't have any rudder in reverse. Can't wait till I can install the inboard.

[Commander227]

Heres the hatchless coach roof with new balsa core. I'm not sure if I want to reinstall the grab rails, I think I prefer the clean look.4988

[Commander227]

New Traveler with mid boom sheeting (just gotta rig it like my Ensign)
Yeah, O.K.,... the outboard controls are a little hill-billy. Just temperary till I can get the A4 in.

[Commander227]

Had just a ball sanding out and repainting the cuddy. But the end result is worth it. I have new cushions being made.

[Commander227]

The pulpit, pushpit, stanchions and life lines off 227 are available to anybody who may need them within the Ariel/Commander class if said party is willing to arrange for (and pay for) packaging and shipping.
The bundle as pictured measures about 5.5' X 5.5' X 2' which is probably larger than UPS or Fed Ex will handle. Pick up Zip is 55331. All parts are in really good shape, not bent up or pitted. I would love to see them go to good use within the Class so if you can figure out a way to get them to yourself without complicating my life too badly their yours.

[Commander227]

Same goes for the hatch. Its in pretty good shape, it does however appear to be painted with house paint.

[carl291]

Mike,
I don't know about the "quick and Dirty" makeover, The speed at which you accomplished the refit is an inspiration to procrastinators such as myself. The deck work and cabin work is certainly first-rate... very nicely done!

[Commander227]

I just ran accross these pics of a Commander I see when sailing in the Virgin Islands. What fun it would be to bang around the islands in a Commander instead of the sailing houses I'm always in.

[Commander227]

Commander 227 was kinda handed her name by my friends around the marina.
"The Princess"
They have been calling her P.O.S. all summer..... I can only assume that means "Princess Of the Sea"
Here's The Princess finishing a fall race. She finished 3rd but PHRFed her way to 1st.
I have to race old man style as I haven't sprung for a spinnaker yet.

[Commander227]

The end is nigh

[SkipperJer]

Commander 227,

I left you a private message regarding the stanchions and rails. Please check it out when you have the chance.

[Commander227]

So sad, pulled The Princess out today.:( Last boat out.
Onto the winter list;
1, Replace compression post and shorty bulkheads with header, full bulkheads and a door to give the head more privacy. (like an Ariel)

2, Replace porta-potie with real head.

3, Install inboard motor, I absolutely hate the outboard in a well thing. I intended to install an Atomic 4 I have laying around, but now I am planning on a 48 volt Mars brushless electric motor set up. less weight, no noise, I moor at a dock with shore power so charging isn't a problem. it looks like I will get about 1.5 hours @ hull speed or 4-5 hours @ around 3 knots with 4 group 27 deep cycle batteries. I sail a 14,000 acre lake without tides or currents so don't need even that much range.

4, Bottom job. We got most of the multiple layers of old paint off with the pressure washer when t was still soft after haul out. VC-17 seem to be the best choice in our climate and waters.

5, Paint freeboard and decks. Fill in outboard well in the bottom and recore the aft deck without the outboard lazerette to further clean up the lines.

6, Rudder post bearing is badly worn and sloppy as well as the rudder to shaft bolts.

I'm toying with the idea of teak decks, hmmmm.... Am I missing anything?

[mbd]

...but now I am planning on a 48 volt Mars brushless electric motor set up. less weight, no noise, I moor at a dock with shore power so charging isn't a problem. it looks like I will get about 1.5 hours @ hull speed or 4-5 hours @ around 3 knots with 4 group 27 deep cycle batteries.
Keep us updated and post lots of details on this one!

[Commander227]

Here in Minnesota, as we put away our soft water boats, we start dreaming about the hard water sailing. Time to dust off the Iceboats.
I get my winter sailing fix in my Skeeter. She'll do almost 80mph in a 25 mph wind.

[Commander 147]

electric motor. Can you give us some links to the equipment you plan on using?

[Rico]

Onto the winter list;
1, Replace compression post and shorty bulkheads with header, full bulkheads and a door to give the head more privacy. (like an Ariel)

2, Replace porta-potie with real head.

3, Install inboard motor, I absolutely hate the outboard in a well thing. I intended to install an Atomic 4 I have laying around, but now I am planning on a 48 volt Mars brushless electric motor set up.

5, Paint freeboard and decks. Fill in outboard well in the bottom and recore the aft deck without the outboard lazerette to further clean up the lines.

6, Rudder post bearing is badly worn and sloppy as well as the rudder to shaft bolts.

I'm toying with the idea of teak decks, hmmmm.... Am I missing anything?

Great project list!
1.- Interesting approach on the bulkhead & door! Being aware of the privacy issue (with the girls) I put in a curtain on a bungy chord. Not nearly as private as a door, but it seems to work really well - and when not in use it keeps the cabin open, making it seem more spacious than it is...

I wonder if the full bulkhead & door in the small cabin might make it a bit too prone to claustrophobia? Just a point to consider...

2.- The electric motor sounds great! I am also interested in your progress. Although in SF bay being able to make it home against a current is critical. Hopefully we'll get there soon... I have been tinking about a tiny outboard just to get me in & out of the basin. No issues with currents in Marina Del Rey where I currently am.

5.- A smooth aft deck will look amazing. Will you keep the space accessible from underneath, or close it up altogether? I saw the version of the lazarette space in the Alerion docked close to me which is smooth on top and looks great. But the space is open from the front, and I did not like the look of that at all... It is not visible on the water, but it is not attractive if you are on the boat - even if there is nothing piled-up in there...

Any thoughts on colors? (No need to reveal - I'm Curious!)

6.- Getting the rudder sorted out was the BEST bang for the buck as far as sailing goes. It just makes it so nice to have a solid feel on the tiller!

With Teak decks 227 would be the prettiest out there!

[Lucky Dawg]

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=18234&postcount=15

THAT is what a marina should look like! Not that I spend a lot of time lounging there, but Torresen - bless its little heart - looks like a dirty old truck stop. Maybe a good thing - if it looked like that, I might not leave the dock as often. Very appealing.

I admire your dig-in-and-blast-it-out rennovation motivation! Wanna come fix my cracking deck paint/gelcoat? :)

[Commander227]

1.- Interesting approach on the bulkhead & door! Being aware of the privacy issue (with the girls) I put in a curtain on a bungy chord. Not nearly as private as a door, but it seems to work really well - and when not in use it keeps the cabin open, making it seem more spacious than it is...

I wonder if the full bulkhead & door in the small cabin might make it a bit too prone to claustrophobia? Just a point to consider...


We use The Princess strictly as a day sailer, (or mostly a night sailer) as we live just 3 blocks from her slip. The only time we spend below decks is to use the head, pick a new playlist on the Ipod, or to fetch a fresh brewski. Oh and my wife wants a little counter space to prepare the cheese plates. I agree that the knee wall type bulkhead really makes the little cuddy seem spacious and I am hesitant to give up the open feeling, but a decent head is the biggest reason we moved from the Ensign to the Commander in the first place.

I assume that it will be the same as a Ariel on the forward side of the bulkhead> Hey Ariel guys... how do you like your heads? I guess I should make some quick cardboard bulkheads and see if I like it.

I also am thinking of bringing the companionway bulkhead all the way down to the bunks and sole so you can't see into the lazerettes, just to clean it up some. Maybe still have an access door.

I will put up a post soon on my electric inboard plans.

[Commander227]

THAT is what a marina should look like! Not that I spend a lot of time lounging there, but Torresen - bless its little heart - looks like a dirty old truck stop. Maybe a good thing - if it looked like that, I might not leave the dock as often. Very appealing.



Thanks! Check us out at;http://shorewoodyachtclub.com

[Commander 147]

Have you checked out EVA, Inc.? This link is to the website and below is a quote that they gave me for the same kind of electric motor repower.

http://www.ev-america.com/EVACatalog.html

[Commander227]

Willbe,
My first intention was to go with a brushed shunt wound motor and controller. I figured I could pull them out of an old gulf cart or pick up something on the cheep from ebay. (I think the scrapping of a gulf cart is probably a pretty good way to go as you would get virtually everything you would need all in one shot and I think the performance would be acceptable.)
I think however that if I'm going to go through all the work of designing and installing the system, I should spend a few bucks and buy shiny new things.
I've decided to go with the Mars brushless motor, Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller, Sevcon DC/DC converter to power the boat's 12 volt systems.
I have not had a chance to look much into chargers yet.
I'm 90% sure I'm going with Thunderstruck motors, for at least the main components.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm
This link brings you to a kit that is close to what I am planning to install, but I want a few different components and wish to make the wiring harnesses myself to get the neatest possible installation. Curtis makes a throttle Pot (wd-45)that goes 5 ohms-0 ohms-5 ohms so I won't need a fwd/rev switch, I can just move the throttle back for reverse and push forward for forward.
The Mars brushless motor weighs only 24 lbs as opposed to 100 plus lbs for a shunt wound motor of equal power and the brushless motors are also quite a bit more efficiant as well as being maintanance free.
The motor is actually A/C 3 phase and the controller converts the D/C power by sending pulses to the motor. This system is set up for regenitive braking, so the controller can be programmed to start charging the batteries once you get up around hull speed and free wheel before that.
Many sites have the motor for about $450.
About the same for the controller,
Contactors, fuses, throttle pot, switches will probably add up to another $400.-$500.
Unlike IC engines that have a narrow power band, the nature of electric motors is to have tons of low end torque. this system should not have any problem pushing my Commander around at hull speed, the only question is range. you need about 400 lbs of batteries to give you the same BTUs as 6 lbs of diesel fuel. Being I sail a inland lake and can charge from shore power at my dock, I am selecting batteries to give me one hour @ hull speed, (enough to get back from the bars and restaurants in Wayzata Bay fast, without going below 80% depth of charge) I would like to keep the weight down as much as I can. I should be able to keep the weight about the same as with the outboard, and way below the weight of the Atomic 4, fuel, engine battery & house battery.
I dunno... it looks O.K. on paper. We'll see how it looks under the bright lights of reality.
An article in the March/April Wooden Boat Magizine about a guy who built an electric launch is what got me going on this whole deal, after doing my own due diligence and research I re-read the article and found I had come up with pretty much the same system and components.

[mbd]

Here's another site I ran across: http://www.elcoelectriclaunch.com/drives.htm

and another: http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/

[Commander 147]

Commander 227

Do you have any idea how much electricity you can generate with the Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller setup? Obviously the more you can generate the less battery weight you need to carry. I would really like to avoid needing 8 batteries. Going out long channels to get to deep water in the gulf makes my future repower a little more demanding than your inland lake sailing. I will also be looking at photovoltaics as a possible method of getting some juice back before I get back to the dock. The upside is you don't need wind to charge that way but the downside is you need a lot of them to get a significant amount of recharging capacity. Solar cell technology is improving by leaps and bounds and the problems may soon be overcome.

I was unable to find the Curtis WD-45 throttle you mentioned. I found a WP-45 but it only works up to 30 volts. Can you give me a link to the throttle? Will it lock in the center so you don't accidentally bump it into forward or reverse? I guess a key switch would make bumping the throttle not a problem however.

Have you given any thought to where you will locate the batteries? I would like to keep them as far forward as possible without making the cable excessively long.

Will you use a folding prop or a fixed prop to maximise regenerating capability?

Like you I hate using an outboard on my sailboat. I am determined to use an electric inboard drive. So when you have completed your repower I would like very much to fly up to see your setup. Would you be willing to show it off to me?

[Commander 147]

The more information the better.

[Chance]

Commander 227,
Thank you for your prompt reply and for offering up your original clamshell vents and any of the rubber seal that you can salvage. That would be great if you would include the hinge sets too. One of my hinges has a break in it, but is serviceable. Both of them are a bit worn and loose, perhaps needing a larger pin?....., but if yours are in decent shape, I'll find them a new home on Ceili, #256. Here's my address: Chance Smith, 472 N. Trotman Road, Camden, NC, 27921. Thank you much for your assistance. Understand the wood screws will work for the winch base onto the wood islands, how about attaching the base of the islands to the deck? Would you do the same, use wood screws up from the underside of the deck, into the base? The only other way I see in doing it, would be to epoxy studs into the base, but then that would make hole alignment and drilling very tricky. Also wanted to mention, your work is remarkable, not to mention the berthing slips at your marina! I have already identified your aft profile of the coamings that you did, and will be doing much the same, much more shapely than the standard round down profile. Did you use teak or genuine mahogany? Where you able to find a single board that was wide enough to accomodate the height that is unique to Commanders?

EBB,
Yes, Capt. Bill did mention the Pearson seals, but said that an order would have to be made, and for that to happen, there would have to be enough interest from the association / members to justify the cost. I'm only (1), and I think the minimum order from who ever the supplier, is quite large. I have seen the other seal that you mention and that was identified by others but I really want to use that which Pearson utilized. The alternative, IMHO is not really a decent replacement.
Thanks for your input and motivation. The two of you are incredible classic plastic owners with outstanding talent!
Respectfully,
Chance

[Commander227]

Commander 227

Do you have any idea how much electricity you can generate with the Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller setup?

I was unable to find the Curtis WD-45 throttle you mentioned. I found a WP-45 but it only works up to 30 volts.

Have you given any thought to where you will locate the batteries?

Will you use a folding prop or a fixed prop to maximise regenerating capability?

So when you have completed your repower I would like very much to fly up to see your setup. Would you be willing to show it off to me?

I really do not yet have a handle on the regen capabilities. There are so many variables such as prop slippage, prop size and come in speed. I think I'll just have to play with the programming once the system is installed. A few sites selling similar systems claim to be able to regen while at anchor in a current. I don't think I would want it to come online and start inducing drag until I was near hull speed, but I'll have easy charging in my slip.

My mistake... it is the WP-45. Keep in mind it is not using the full line voltage, just the 10.5v controller circuit voltage. Anyway I'm off the WP-45. The Harbor 20 uses a Motorguide electric motor set up and has a very neat key switch and throttle in a nice recessed pan that will mount flush. It is 5-0-5 K ohms, it does not have any feel or neutral detent, but I've found it to work great the few times I've sailed a harbor 20. I just ordered the pictured set up from Schock.

Batteries will be kept as low and close to the C/G as possible. I had to place a couple of sand bags in my anchor rode compartment this summer to balance the 9.9 O.B. Before haul out I pulled the O.B. and the sand bags and the boat still rode bow high and took almost 100# to level out the boat. Being the I.B. motor will sit about 6' aft of the C/G, I know I'll need at least 2 batts well forward. I will not build the battery boxes until all systems are in place and I can float the boat to get the balance right.

A folding prop will not work with the relief cut into the keel and rudder. I am debating on 2 blade vs. 3 blade. If I use a 2 blade I can mark the shaft and pin it inline with the keel when racing, but it sure is nice to have that 3 blade bite when you are accelerating or stopping. I'm on vacation next week and have Dave Garr's "Propeller Handbook" for my beach reading.

I'd love to show it off if it works and I don't end up pulling it all back out and hauling it to the scrap yard.

[Commander 147]

Here's hoping it all works and you get the opportunity to show off your handiwork. I'm VERY interested in your progress on this mod. and the inclosed head project. The electric drive for me and the enclosed head for my admiral ;)

Please keep us informed on your progress for all of your mods.

[Chance]

Michael,
Received the parcel this evening. Thank you kindly for your assistance in my efforts to bring "Ceili" back to life. If you ever venture down to this area, please give me a shout, your welcome to stay with us.

[Bill]

SolidNav has a line of electric motors for boats. Svend's in Alameda, CA has the "Traveler" model on display . . . an outboard. Stats in the owner's manual indicate an equivalent 4-hp from 3.0 kw. Here's the pitch:

"SolidNav proudly announces a real electric option for sailboats without an existing inboard, pontoon boats and for small craft that require reliable outboard performance. Our long shaft and remote engine controls make docking enjoyable without the dread of lethal oil sheens and clouds of foul smelling fumes. Actual outboard construction and solid frame construction position the traveler as the only choice for real world applications.

$2,499*"

http://www.solidnav.com/traveler.html

From my limited observation, the shaft and head should fit in the A-C well. Not sure, however, about the clearance distance from the aft bulkhead in the lazarette, as I did not have access to a measuring device. ;)

[Commander227]

Bill,
I believe this has the same electric motor as I am planning to install as an Inboard, the Mars PMAC. the controller is smaller (150 amp) than I am planning on using (250 amp) . I have seen similar models that have the Mars motor bolted to the Tohatsu 6hp lower unit and cowl. The SolidNav Explorer model is also the same motor with a smaller controller as the ThunderStruck kit and is a neat little package, but over $3.000. more expensive.

[ebb]

For me there has to be more than a web site and hype to become interested in an electric outboard. There is no spread to their presentation. Curious lack of testimonial, photo and video support. This being a three years in development American product where are the long legs, installation and spray shots? Where's the action?

At least the price is comparable to gas OBs. How about the wear and tear.
How about a demo on a particular market target sailboat? Weight issue (batteries) might keep the motor out of the race crowd. It's not for extended cruising unless you can make juice as you use it. I'd like to see it demoed in more water than marina parking.

It's unavoidable that the electric OB will be compared to the gas OB on more than the green factor and the price.
You have to incude the dedicated battery bank in the cost comparison. The battery issue, weight and room and CHARGING, has to be addressed realistically by the company. imco

Or do we have to wait for Practical Sailor to rate it?
(Practical Sailor now features unrated untested new products. Being a cynic - and certain there must be hundreds of new products coming on market every week - I wonder if the featured manufacturer is paying a fee for the privilege of the exposure. It's good to know of new products but not with an implied approval stamp from a product testing "we take no advertising" magazine.) P.S. should be doing a comparison test soon.

There needs to be third party feedback.

[Commander227]

I didn't have much time for the old girl in Nov., but started the planning process and started ordering and receiving the parts for the electric inboard.

Pic #1 Rudder removed to cut prop aperture.
Pic #2 Hull prop aperture plug.
pic #3 bottom after a long session with the pressure washer.
pic #4 The soon to be plugged outboard well.

[Commander227]

Pic #1 Lip of aft lazerette cut off and the new plywood lazerette sole ready to glass in.

Pic #2 Prop aperture opened up and outboard well being closed.

Pic #3 bottom almost ready for the barrier coat.

Pic #4 boy... it really does not take very long to remove any value a 40 year old boat may have had. How much do you think shes worth now as she sits?

Pic #5 Webs and compression post cut away to make way for the header and full bulkheads.

[Commander 147]

Commander 227 can you post some close up pictures of the keel where you cut out for the prop and both ends of the prop shaft tube? I'm very interested in seeing what that area looks like.

Have you decided on all of the components for the elec. drive yet? I assume you are still going with the Mars brushless motor, Sevcon PMAC 48 volt controller, Sevcon DC/DC converter to power the boat's 12 volt systems. And what about the charging system? Do you plan to incorporate solar cells or wind generator to help with charging or will you use just shore power. If shore power what charger are you using? Did you decide on a throttle mechanisim?

[Commander227]

Pic#1. White oak header and upper bulkheads glassed in. (Wow, did the boys @ Pearson know how to make Formica stick to bulkheads!! It took forever to chip that stuff off.)
Pic#2&3. Pretty bulkheads ready to glass in.
Pic#4. Bored hole in keel for stern tube.
Pic#5. Outboard well glassed on inside.

[Commander227]

The goodies are starting to arrive!
Pic # 1. (clockwise) 15a, 48v electronic charger, Mars motor, Contactor switch, Sevcon Millipak controller, 200a fuse and 48v-12v converter.
pic #2. Shaft log, G-10 for a stern tube and timing belt pulleys for the reduction drive.

[mbowman]

Great progress! Looks like you have a good, large garage to work in also. I have an Ariel and am also looking at putting in a door to the V-birth, head area. I take out a lot of couples and the head issue is always ... well an issue. currently I have a port-a-potty with no door. Before this spring I hope to put in a door... I'm thinking about a "vented" door that swings into the main cabin. Maybe a 6" opening at the top and bottom (a little more than a half door) for ventilation. Has anyone had any luck with this?

[Vines]

I don't suppose there is any chance you still have the hatch cover, huh? I could sure use it. C229 has an old home-made one that doesn't look too great, but it doesn't look too bad either. I assume the fiberglass one is original. That is why I am interested in it. I believe there is very little on this boat that isn't original.

[Commander227]

I've been saving it just for you!!! PM me your address and I'll send it your way.

[Vines]

BTW, IDK what PM is, LOL.

[Commander227]

Pic #1 Motor assembly forward side ready to install
Pic #2 Motor assembly Aft side
Pic #3 Stern tube and cutlass bearing
Pic #4 Ex-outboard well
Pic #5 stern tube, shaft log and lower motor mounts

[Commander227]

Pic #1 New aft deck in gel primer
Pic #2&3 routing out gel coat cracks (their endless)

[Commander 147]

Commander 227

Looks like you are working steady at the mods and making good progress. Are you able to work on it during the day? I would guess the marina business is slow in your part of the world at this time of the year.

The 4 large bolts on the corners of the plate that the motor and controller are mounted to I assume are to bolt the plate into the boat. Did you glass in another piece of deadwood to the bottom of the cockpit floor to bolt the top of the plate to?

I can't wait to hear your final report on how well your setup works.

[Commander227]

The 4 large bolts on the corners of the plate that the motor and controller are mounted to I assume are to bolt the plate into the boat. Did you glass in another piece of deadwood to the bottom of the cockpit floor to bolt the top of the plate to?

Are you able to work on it during the day? I would guess the marina business is slow in your part of the world at this time of the year.
Yes, exactly, I glassed in a white oak 1 x 3 under the cockpit floor for the top mounts. The 4 long pieces of threaded rod with a nuts and washers on either side of the mounts will give me all the adjustability I will need to align the motor assy. to the shaft.


No, unfortunately the marina business is a lot like farming, the sense of urgency diminishes but theres always a ton to do. I'm only able to give the Princess one or two nights a week. Once I get the body work done I will be handing it off to someone else to paint the decks and freeboard for me, that should speed up progress.

[commanderpete]

Nice work. Can't wait till you spark her up

[Commander227]

It's funny how much work can get done when you're willing to cross a few palms with silver!!!!!! while I was away screwing around in the BVI look what happened to the Princess. The decks were primed with Duratech, sanded out, then painted with Awlgrip. The finish is beautiful and it hasn't even been buffed out yet. The non-skid is Awlgrip course additive.

[Commander227]

The freeboard was sanded today and they will prime it tomorrow.

[Commander 147]

These boats take both and depending on our personalities and our individual talents we vary the degree of one or the other to bring these boats back up into shape. And it is a great deal of fun in the process. :D:D

I think you are going to be able to officially remove the POS label and will probably shock some of your sailing buddies the next time they see the Princess. :)

What color are you painting the topsides?

[carl291]

Commander227,
Nice work, and for only a few pieces of silver? It would appear you are going for the "biggie size" Ensign look!:p Speaking of the Ensign, could you post some eye candy photos of the Yellow hull Ensign you were repairing, that's a beautiful boat.
Good Luck
Carl

[mbd]

Wow! I think you just may set the record for the quickest and most complete refit! I'm really looking forward to hearing how your new power plant works out. Very impressive!

[Commander227]

The Princesses freeboard was primed today. she will be sanded out in the morning and will hopefully be sporting her new topcoat by the afternoon. Then the fun of trying to place the waterline and make straight tapelines. The color? You'll just have to wait and see.

Willbe- Yeah, to me the trick is doing what I can and just bucking up and paying for what I know I can't do well. I know I don't have the patience to paint... I fall into the "Beat it to fit, Paint it to match" category. I'm trying not to think about what I'll have into this boat, but I'm certain it won't be anywhere near the $95,000. they get for an Alerion 28 or even the $42,000. for a new Ensign. I think it will be closer to the $7,200. they are getting for a new Laser.

[Commander227]

Commander227,
Nice work, and for only a few pieces of silver? It would appear you are going for the "biggie size" Ensign look!:p Speaking of the Ensign, could you post some eye candy photos of the Yellow hull Ensign you were repairing, that's a beautiful boat.
Good Luck
Carl
You're right Carl... Deep down I just want my Commander to be like my beloved Ensign. My Dad bought Ensign #1117 new in 1965 and has sailed and raced the boat every year since. He turns 80 in a few days and he still kicks my butt every Thursday night. All six of us kids learned to sail on Tranquility and developed a love for the sport.
I bought Ensign #1525 over ten years ago and am shocked to only find these few pictures of Serendipity. I love the boat and plan to continue to sail and race her. there are nearly 50 Ensigns here on Lake Minnetonka and they are raced at three different Yacht Clubs on the lake.
My wife and I decided to add the Commander to our little fleet so we could have more creature comforts such as a head, roller furling, inboard motor and stereo for daysailing with guests and our relaxing night sails.

[carl291]

Great pictures,At the speed you complete projects it's ridiculous to ask,but have you completed repairs from the lightning strike?

[Commander227]

Yes, that was a few years ago and I got her back in the water the next week. I only missed one race.

[Commander227]

The princess was fitted with her party dress last week but the third coat had some minor problems with fisheyes. after the finish had cured enough she was wet sanded and two more coats were applied. My painter recommended not buffing her out for a month to allow the Awlgrip to harden up. I will let the finish harden up until the weekend then try to sight in the waterline and have it painted. Bob and Tim did a great job with the decks and the freeboard, it really looks good!!!(the pictures don't do it justice)

[Rico]

Pretty! :D

Very nice shine!

I considered going with the classic blue hull with red waterline stripes. I really like the scheme for classic looking sailboats like the Commander. It will complement the wood nicely.

Unfortunately the dark blue reaches VERY high temperatures in the bright California summer sun... so I needed a light color.

I caught a lot of grief when telling people that the Mephisto Cat would be Gray -but to my relief everyone changed their tune when they saw the finished product...

The finish looks beautiful and you will get no votes against on the dark blue!

[Commander227]

I have not had much time for the Princess lately and spring is right around the corner. Average Ice out for Lake Minnetonka is April 15th. To quote some dude in a flannel shirt, "git er dun"
Pic #1; Rudder about ready to install after cutting the prop aperture, glassing and gel coat. just need to sand and apply the VC-17.
Pic #2; Motor assy. set in place, needs to be aligned with the shaft, but I had to send the shaft to the machine shop to have the keyway lengthened.(sure wish I could learn to read a tape measure).
Pic #3; Bulkhead trimmed and varnished, still need to make the rest of the interior trim and the door to the head and touch up the cuddy paint. (also install the head)
Pic #4&5; Fabricated and installed the new companionway sill. I did this before fabricating the rest of the trim to be sure I had the right angles and a good fit. Need to finish the last few coats and install remaining pieces.

[Commander227]

Pic #1; Coaming boards ready to reinstall, Sanded to bare wood (again)and doweled all the PO holes. The wood was quite rotten at the joint between the board and Knuckle so I hardened the spongy areas with West System thinned with acetone, then put them back together with West thickened with adhesive filler. Then 3 coats Perfection Varnish, sanding with 320 grit between coats, then a 180 grit sand down followed by 320. 3 more coats with 320 between, another 180/320 sand down and 2 final coats. after it cures a few days I'll wet sand and buff.
Pic #2; The coaming board mounting holes were stripped out and the plywood was rotten around the holes. I step drilled with a Unibit (my favorite tool) until i got to good wood, then filled with West thickened with high density filler. Next I'll drill and tap to 1/4-24 and install the boards with machine screws.
pic #3; I brought The Princess back to my shop (it wintered in a friends shop) now that the paying winter work is done. It will be much easier to find time for her now that shes close.
I still need to install all the cleats, chocks, traveler, hardware for the running rigging, chainplate beauty rings and drain grates, place and paint the waterline, apply barior coat and bottom paint, finish motor install, pull out the lead pig and replace with battery boxes..... Its nearly 50 out today....Tick, tick, tick.

[Commander227]

I considered going with the classic blue hull with red waterline stripes. I really like the scheme for classic looking sailboats like the Commander. It will complement the wood nicely.
caught a lot of grief when telling people that the Mephisto Cat would be Gray -but to my relief everyone changed their tune when they saw the finished product...

Rico,
I feel a little like a sell out for opting for the flag blue scheme, it being all the rage in daysailers these days, but I really do like it. I was torn between the flag blue, yellow to match my Ensign & Bright red. I think I will break from pop culture and go with a white waterline instead of the red.
Mephisto Cat looks fantastic in the gray!!!! Classy and original. Gray is also a great choice as it is an easy color to touch up and blend when you get the first inevitable dock rash.

[ebb]

BEAUTIFUL WORK!:cool:
Exquisite.

Must say I liked the Commander when she was all stripped and primed all WHITE.

What a sweet looking boat the Commander is!

[Commander227]

Today after work Tim and I were installing the coaming boards on The Princess when disaster struck!! We had removed the gantry lift straps and moved the boat stand pads high up on the freeboard to apply the barrier coat. We looked at the boat and talked about it's stability before climbing up. I worried that the keel which was sitting on some 2x6s on the cement floor could skid out and the boat would rotate inside the stands, but the barrier coat was too soft to put the straps back on and I really wanted to get the coaming boards on tonight. Well, that is exactly what happened just as we were both on one side of the boat; Tim pushing on the board to flex it into position and me with drill in hand to pop the first hole. The Princess started to go over...Tim, the experienced scow sailor, started climbing to the high side and looked ready to jump over the rail to stand on the keel to keep her from turning turtle while I rode her down and jumped out just before she settled on the floor. No one was hurt and the damage seems limited to a couple of gouges from the boat stands amid ship, some dings on the toe rail in two spots, and the straps played havoc in the fresh barrier coat when we righted her, all in all it could have been much worse.

[Rico]

Holy knockdown! :eek:

I've read many times on the board that these little boats always pop right back up after a knockdown... I guess it is not so true in the dry!

Still a testament of the sturdiness of these boats.

I'm glad everyone is OK.

[Commander 147]

You've been trying so hard to "get er done" and apparently pushing a wee bit too hard.

I'm really glad you and Tim are OK and the Princess can be repaired. Things could have gone far worse.

With the exception of the new damage she sure is starting to look good though. You're going to have a really fine boat when you do finish her.

[bill@ariel231]

Yikes, glad nobody got hurt. paint is easier to fix than people.

[ebb]

Sorry for the mishap.

To my knowledge this is a first timer on this Forum.
Thanks for letting us know.

Always wonder about these things happening
- and what damage is sustained.

Tell us what if anything happened to the hull-to-deck joint.

I'd like to know how you will go about fixing the LPU.
I've got Awlgrip on my topsides.
Have no idea on 'patching and repainting, etc.


Best of luck. Like you say it could have been much worse.
I believe that shinola happens but
there is a special kind of good luck swedish angel that looks over our fleet.:o

[Commander227]

After seeing the pile of boat bling on Rico's page I knew I'd have to spiff up the Princesses jewelry. I had two boxes in the truck; one for the chrome platers, containing the stem fitting, Pearson ID tag, lights and drain grates. The other box containing the cleats, chocks & window frames I was bringing to be re-anodized.(much cheaper than chrome plating) When I got to the plate shop the guy asked about the other box....shot me a price to plate the both boxes....($500.) my head started spinning with the thought of all those shiny things, I think I agreed...next thing I know I'm driving away thinking about some old saying ....something about a fool and his money.

[Commander227]

My first inclination was to make the hull deck joint disappear like "Mephisto Cat" but as the Commander has a near vertical freeboard amid ship I was nervous about not having any protection for the new paint. I wanted something that would stand proud of the freeboard by at least 1/2".
I found this profile at Eagle Molding. It is made to accept the original stainless trim piece. It comes in 16' pieces so there is only one joint to miter in, and it went on very nicely. I filled the void with 4200.

[Commander227]

When I bought the Princess, the waterline was just 1" tape, was 4" too high, and not plumb with how I felt the boat should balance so I did not have any reference as to where to place it after the paint job. I poured over all the plans in the manual, looked at all the pictures I could in the Gallery and came up with a enough points to run the line. Then I worried and worried about it's placement. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I put the blubbers in the well to remove enough ice to float the Princess, guessed the weight of the mast and rigging and donned my hip boots armed with a china marker. I figured she was at her design attitude when water ran into the mid ship scuppers at an equal rate from the bow and the stern. Then I made as many marks as I could reach without having ice cold water run into my hip boots, pulled the boat back out, turned her around and marked the stern. After I got her back into the shop I used a borrowed laser level (the rotating beacon type), leveled out the boat by placing the laser's line 1" above my marks and followed the laser for the lower tape line. Then i raised the level 3.5" to shoot in the upper tape line. You can see in the photo how close we were to the line we came up with from the pictures and drawings. Bob came back over and started to repair the damage from our little mishap and shot the new line. After seeing the white barrier coat I changed my mind from VC-17 bottom paint and used white Vivid instead. So having a white waterline wouldn't work so I had him shoot it in red.(without getting spousal approval, she has not seen it yet)

[bill@ariel231]

mmmm... shiny!

I think you got a bargain on the chrome plate. I had a quote for $500 for just my nav lights (haven't done those yet). ;)

[jshisha]

Looks great!

I have rechromed the stem piece and the cover for the tiller shaft. I am afraid to chrome plate the cleats and chucks for fear that the chaffing of the lines will peal off the plating. How long do you think the plating will holdup?

[carl291]

Mike,

Was that the "good buddy" price on the plating or the price for everyone? I would be interested in boxing up my parts and shipping to the plater. If you could provide some contact info that would be great, Thanks ! Carl
PS Your New Ensign looks great!:D

[Commander227]

jshisha - I'm no expert on the subject, but I believe chrome is extremely hard and wear resistant.

Carl - No good buddy discount, just found him from talking to hot rod guys and bikers.

J & D Custom Plating
2124 Gilbert Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55104
651-251-7400

[Rico]

Wow. Pretty shiny bits! AND a great price too...
I did not think of chroming the window frames... I should have! (I just painted them).

Great job on the waterline stripe... You certainly went after the sure-fire method of getting it right!
I was very careful to keep marks when prepping for the new gelcoat. I did hiring a travel-lift would have been expensive!

I love the contrast with the coambings. Amazing.

Did you keep the conventional bulbs in the nav lights? I've yet to install mine since I'd like to go LED...


Jshisha; I do think that the chrome finish will hold-up nicely... I cannot even see even small scratches on my winches yet!

[Commander227]

I put the Princess back in the water the other day, the poor old girl is nowhere near complete but working on her outside in a dirt parking lot wasn't doing her new paint any good.
Still to do list;
Finish installing the head.
Finish wiring; stern light, interior lights and neaten up the bundles.
Fabricate and install door for the head. None of the other interior work will likely get touched this summer.
Install winch towers.
Install Genoa tracks (I almost installed them yesterday but decided they were not shiny enough and sent them out to be chromed)
Install midship horn cleats.
Run halyards and running rigging.
Pic #1 New under deck furling line
Pic #2 1:2 furling. each foot of furling line will bring in two feet of sail
Pic #3 Furling control exit. My wife has staked a claim to the cockpit forward of the winch towers (which she had me mount farther aft) and deemed it to be a "gizmo free zone". All sail controls are being lead aft of the winches so she will not be bothered when I am tacking, jibing or other such nonsense.
Pic #4 Traveler and main control.

[Lucky Dawg]

Congrats on the ongoing reclaimation of The Princess! The furler line running belowdecks is a novel idea that I haven't seen on any A/Cs (reminds me of some of my old MC Scow's line management) My first thought though was water intrusion at that point...? You know more than I by a long shot, hence my question - seems like an open hole to the elements directed inside the cabin! Inquiring minds (or just my mind) want to know.

[Commander 147]

I assume the underdeck furler enters below deck close enough to the bow to drain into the chain locker and then down into the keel. With the 2:1 purchase that has to make it easier to furl and unfurl.

I also like the center fixed block and cleat to keep the mainsail sheet always located at the same spot and not moving back and forth with the traveler. I may steel that idea on my commander. One thing I do with my traveler that I find very useful is a continuous loop on the control line. It is much easier when the boat is heeled to uncleat the leeward cleat and it gets rid of a lot of unecessary line in the cockpit.

You have come a long way and completed a lot of the major work on your rebuild. Mine is just beginning. Have you test fired the electric drive yet?

[Commander227]

Heres the preliminary report on the "Dragon Drive" (named by my 15 year old son, who claimed young people are not getting into sailing because it's not marketed in an exciting enough manor)

In short, I could not be happier with the performance. It has far more power than I need or hoped for and uses far less power. heres the MPH/amp break down (measured on flat water and calm winds);

2.5amps = 2.6 mph.
5.0 amps = 3 mph
10 amps = 3.6 mph
15 amps = 4.3 mph
20 amps = 4.6 mph
30 amps = 5.1 mph
40 amps = 5.4 mph
65 amps = 5.8 mph (wide open)

I installed 4 standard group 27 deep cycle marine batteries that claim 77 amp/hours at a 25 amp draw, that totals 308 amps.
I'm running a 12X10 two bladed prop and the boat accelerates and stops like right now! I can enter my slip at 2 knots and stop before the bow hits. I do get some tiller vibration and prop noise when I crank her way up and expect the prop is too big for the aperture. I'm going to cut it down to a 11X10.
I ended up using a golf cart throttle pot. It has a fairly strong return spring in case it gets hit accidentlly and a 1/4 turn on the knob will hold a power setting. one switch for on/off, one switch for fwd/rev, and a ammeter.

[Commander227]

The furling line entrance is in the chain locker and I shimmed it up to prevent most deck wash from running in. I don't mind a little water getting in.
The furler is 1:2 not 2:1 so it is harder to pull, not easier. the point was to be able to roll it up quicker with less line on the cockpit floor. the head sail rolls up so easy that I didn't feel I needed the 1:1. Your right Dawg, it is MC inspired.
I like to sit pretty far forward in the cockpit, and I go to the traveler more than the mainsheet when sailing to weather so the continuous loop does not work too well for me. I just leave the leeward side uncleated.

[Commander 147]

Your system is 48VDC drive correct? So if you hook up 4ea group 27 batteries that are 12 volt you have to hook them up in series to get the 48VDC current but your amp hours would not accumulate they would stay at the original 77 amp hours that each battery is rated for correct? Or am I unside down on this?

If I'm correct and you keep the throttle down to 3amp draw and you only draw down the battery half way you still could travel 12.83 hours at 3 MPH for a total distance of 38.49 miles on a charge. Not to shabby!!

Am I figuring this stuff correct or am I off in left field?

[Commander227]

C-147,
You got it right, my range may be a little longer at low speeds thou as the rating is figured with a 25 amp draw, one of these days I'll have time to do a longer run and check the range. the longest run so far has been 5 miles at varying speeds.

[Commander227]

One of my customers just emailed me this pic of The Princess's maiden voyage.

[Commander 147]

She sure is looking good :)

[Commander227]

The electric inboard has been great for gunkholing. Here we are sliding down a long windless channel between Mahpiyata & Big islands.

[Commander 147]

Mike

How does she handle in reverse with the elec drive?

[Commander227]

How does she handle in reverse with the elec drive?

Plenty of stopping power, good acceleration, but like any long keeled boat with an attached rudder there is not much control. She just likes to go straight back with a little torque to port no matter what the tiller is doing.

[Commander227]

When we decided that our Ensign was no longer fulfilling our wants and needs we began a long search for the perfect boat. We settled on the Commander for all the same reasons as ya'll.
Its now been just over a year since I dragged The Princess home from Milwaukee and shes all but finished. I paid $3,000. for her and immediately spent that again adding a traveler, winches and the roller furling unit. We did a quick and dirty spruce up to get her in the water and enjoyed the sailing season getting to know her. By the fall haul out we had a pretty good idea of what changes we wanted to make and liked the boat enough to feel O.K. about spending some money and time on her. To date we have nearly $20,000. into her and who knows how many hours. I'm sure on the market we'd be lucky to get 1/2 that back... but we ended up with a boat we can be proud of, custom tailored to our needs with all new rigging and sails that turns the heads of stinkpotters as well as sailors.
Here is the final (?) cost of The Princess's restoration:

COMMANDER 227

HULL
Date Vender Discription Cost
5/19/2008 Commander 227 $3,000.00
5/22/2008 Fuel for Transport $320.00
6/10/2008 Lakeland Fiberglass Repair deck under stanchions, pulpit, pushpit and remove front hatch $1,000.00
6/10/2008 Advanced Composites Fillers, Balsa Core, Resin for deck repairs $128.00
6/10/2008 SYC Shop Supplies $55.00
6/14/2008 Seven Seas Cuddy Paint $60.00
6/14/2008 Midwest Boat Appeal 6mm & 18mm Plywood for Bulkheads $130.10
6/14/2008 Fabian Labor to sand out cuddy $100.00
1/10/2009 Seven Seas West System (1 Gal) $125.00
2/2/2009 Lakeland Fiberglass Deposit on Deck Repair & Paint Job $1,000.00
2/10/2009 Seven Seas Awlgrip off white (1 Gal) Reducer, Catalyst. $478.00
2/10/2009 Seven Seas Awlgrip off white (1 Gal) Flag blue (2 Qt.) Non-skid $480.00
2/14/2009 Tonka Bay Marina Duratech primer, fillers $147.00
3/7/2009 Lakeland Fiberglass Balance on paint job $2,860.00
3/7/2009 Seven Seas Jabasco manual head $154.00
3/8/2009 Seven Seas Perfection Varnish (2 quarts) $110.00
3/18/2009 Seven Seas Schooner Varnish $46.00
3/18/2009 Best Buy Stereo $154.00
3/30/2009 Seven Seas Awlgrip Vivid Red (1 quart) $68.00
3/28/2009 J&D Plating Chrome Plating of hardware $500.00
3/28/2009 Radio Shack Hobby box fror fuses, red LEDs for mood lighting $15.75
4/2/2009 Eagle Molding Rub Rail $78.00
4/4/2009 Lakeland Fiberglass Repair damage from fall and Paint hatches & winch towers $730.00
4/4/2009 Seven Seas Vivid White bottom paint ( 2 gal ) $379.00
4/4/2009 Seven Seas Bronze through hulls & ball valves for head $118.00
5/5/2009 J&D Plating Chrome plate genoa cars and tracks $190.00
5/5/2009 Perma Top Interior cushions $830.00

Total Hull $13,255.85

RIGGING
Date Vender Discription Cost
6/20/2008 Seven Seas Halyards $65.00
6/20/2008 Seven Seas Genoa Blocks $52.00
6/20/2008 Seven Seas Genoa Sheets $48.00
6/20/2008 Seven Seas Main Sheet Blocks $108.00
6/20/2008 Seven Seas Main Sheet $42.00
6/20/2008 Seven Seas traveler Lines $26.00
6/20/2008 Harken Traveler set up $426.00
7/28/2009 SYC Head Sail $0.00
7/28/2008 Harken Roller Furler $1,155.00
7/28/2008 Harken B16STC Self Tailing Winches $1,020.00
7/30/2008 Seven Seas Headstay for furler $60.00
3/25/2009 Seven Seas Harken Swivel Base (for Main Sheet) $74.00
3/25/2009 Seven Seas Genoa Tracks $40.00
4/10/2009 Western Sailcraft New Main Sail $820.00
6/2/2009 Seven Seas Hardware for internal outhaul $100.00

Total Rigging $4,036.00

POWERPLANT
Date Vender Discription Cost
12/15/2008 Tonka Bay Marina Shaft Log $118.00
2/20/2009 SYC Aluminum Plate $0.00
12/20/2008 Thunderstruck Motors Motor $450.00
12/20/2008 Thunderstruck Motors Controller $450.00
12/20/2008 Thunderstruck Motors Charger $311.00
12/20/2008 Thunderstruck Motors Contactor, Fuse and Converter $119.00
1/6/2009 McMaster-Carr Bushings and Timing Pulleys $191.00
1/6/2009 McMaster-Carr Garolite for Stern Tube $44.00
1/6/2009 McMaster-Carr 6664k24 Bearing pillow block $30.10
1/8/2009 McMaster-Carr 6309k31 Vibration Mounts (4) $22.80
1/8/2009 McMaster-Carr 6486k114 Timing Belt $19.57
1/12/2009 Land N Sea Cutlass Bearing $28.00
1/20/2009 Minnie's Surplus Propeller $45.00
2/28/2009 Marine Assoc. Shaft $147.00
4/4/2009 Seven Seas Switches $17.00
4/12/2009 Thunderstruck Motors Cutrtis Pot Box $85.00
4/13/2009 EVParts.com Ampmeter, Shunt, Voltmeter $118.00
4/21/2009 Interstate Batteries 4ea SRM 27 $303.00
4/24/1901 Home Depot #2 Copper service wire $64.00
4/24/1901 Fastenal #2 terminals $11.50

Total Powerplant $2,573.97


PROJECT TOTAL $19,865.82

[Commander 147]

I think it's really good to see what one can realistically expect to spend to get one of these boats into good condition. And the best part is while $20,000.00 may seem like a lot of money it is a drop in the bucket compared to what a new boat of similar appeal and quality would cost. And besides, how many new production boats are there that actually make your heart skip a beat when you look at them like these boats do?

[Tony G]

Mike,

You are very brave man for actually keeping track of expenses and posting them. Or, you could just be a complete wild man!:D

The amount is comparably small when considering the cost of a comparable new boat. And the argument has been made here before that one would be hard pressed to find a comparable new boat. Don't get me wrong. There are many boats out there that I covet, nay lust to own. But comparable are few.

Granted, these are not the best of times. Most of us are really watching the bottom line and tightening the belt to keep food on the table and a roof overhead. But truth be told, who knows of a cost effective hobby? And when you factor in passion money has very little value. 227 would be a steal at 10K.

[ebb]

Interesting that just a list like that
tells the story!:cool:

But not in such a list is whispering along a quiet estuary

with an electrick motor you built yourself.

THAT'S IMPRESSIVE!:cool::D:D

[Commander227]

]6010[/ATTACH]The Princess took 1st overall at the SYC July 4th race, and 3rd in the PHRF II fleet at a WYC around Big Island race with a PHRF rating of 229 (subsequent whining has changed her rating to 273 for future races with WYC) With the new rating she will be unbeatable!!!!!

[Commander 147]

So how does that make those who called her a POS feel??? Humble I hope. :-)

Sail on _/)~~~_/)~~~

[Commander227]

Had a beautiful sail last Sunday around Big Island with the SYC's Commodore Cup Race. The Princess finished first in her fleet and Third overall 20 seconds corrected behind an Ensign and two minutes corrected behind an Express 27.

[Commander 147]

Danika Patrick fast and beautiful :)

[Commander227]

:) People just keep emailing me pictures of The Princess :)

[Commander227]

Heres a few shots of The Princess's interior. The doors are just cheap closet doors from the local Home Depot that I cut down to size. I have cabinet magnets to keep them open as well as closed. The seahorse carving in the sole is from a PO.

[Commander227]

Its not even the middle of October!!

[Commander 147]

We have 87 degrees with a high predicted over 90 and 70% humidity. Just came back from my grandsons football game where we melted in the stands from the heat. You send us some cold and we will send you some heat and we will both be better off!!!

[Commander227]

I'm feeling a little ripped off. First we have the 7th coldest summer on record, and now we're getting December weather in October.
I WANT MY INDIAN SUMMER!!!!
Its only 1700 mile to Belize as the crow flies, I could drive the first third in two days.... how long to sail across the gulf?

[Tony G]

World Trade Foundation???:confused:

I feel your pain, disgust, anger, frustration, rage, animosity, resentment, ire, did we leave anything out, Mike? This surely put a big wrinkle in your work plans for this fall! I keep telling myself, just two more winters....but it's hard this early in October, isn't it?

With regards to Belize. Just talked to my friend yesturday and Key Caulker is somewhere you'd wanna strike from your plans this year. San Pedro on Ambergris is a little better but they're hurting too. Anyone not from there has a target on 'em. Reminiscent of the late 80's... Bummer, cuz we wanted to go back this spring. St. John come March? St. Patrick's Day is a hoot I hear.

Hang tough, brother.

[mikeroth]

What was the size of the your shaft log (g-10 tubing)? I need to order one for my boat and it looks like the outside diameter of your tubing is about the largest you can fit in the boat. thanks mike

[Commander227]

Mike,
Sorry for the slow reply. I have not been on the board lately.
I used 1 3/4" G10 with 1/4" wall thickness. McMaster-Carr # 86555K474
I opted for this because;
1, The outside diameter matched that of my shaft log so the rubber tube that connects them seals well.
2, the cutlass bearing (I believe I used a Blackfish) pressed into the I.D. tight enough where no mechanical fasteners or retainers were needed.
I hope this helps, your probably done with the job by now.
Mike
C227

[Commander227]

Hooray for me...hooray for The Princess!!!
Boo and I spent our Easter cleaning up The Princess. I got the freeboard and Boo (my wife, the real Princess) scrubbed up the insides. We figured we'd do the decks once she was in the water. we splashed her, then figured we'd bend the sails before we scrubbed the decks. well, so there we were in the water with the sails bent. It was sunny and 60 degees, blowing around 10 knots and no one else was on the lake. ya think the decks ever got scrubbed? We had a wonderful Easter sail. It must be the earliest I've ever been out.
The Princess is riding a strong inch higher after the removal of the compensator (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=177&page=4) ballast. It did not effect the trim at all, you can see she still rides her lines very well.

[CupOTea]

The dilemma around bow pulpits and stern rails is ongoing for me. I have a bow pulpit on Cup O' Tea IV and it's staying there. But the stern....hmmm.

Sometimes when I'm hanging out over the lazarette fussing with the enginge or rigging or something else and the boat is bucking like a bronco on these Long Island Sound waves - it sure does seem desirable.

At 6'3", guidelines are, for me, something to grab pretty late in the game. Probably on the way overboard and too late to do much good. Practically have to bend in half to reach them. That said, for kid sailors they sure do seem desirable.

So I went online in search of a pushpit. Found one fairly quickly from those boys up in Maine. But...I just can't pull the trigger. There's something about that clean, open Commander stern that just screams Alberg without the extra hardware putting a period on an otherwise never ending sentence.

Ariels, on the other hand, seem more "established" and welcome the extra chromeware.

Just my 2 cents...

Scott

[commanderpete]

If you have lifelines, you either have to terminate them on the deck at the stern or at a pushpit. The pushpit gives you wraparound coverage.

But, I like easy access at the back of the boat if you dock stern-to The boat has roll on/roll off capabilities. Landlubber guests don't have to climb over the pushpit. Getting on and off the boat is usually the most dangerous part of the voyage for them

If you have an engine on a bracket off the stern then a pushpit would be valuable. And you can mount stuff on it

[Rico]

I like easy access at the back of the boat if you dock stern-to...



I like that you could potentially use the pushpit for hanging storage, but I MUCH prefer the pulpit only look (NO push-pit).

As far as the lifelines; I feel that on Commanders / Ariels the lifelines only serve to put you into the water head-first... or to make it more painful to go in!
They somewhat limit your mobility; I typically swing on the outside of the rigging when heading to the bow. This is not so easy with lifelines in the way...

Aesthetically; I think the lifelines detract from the look of these great looking little yachts...

If you have kids it might be different... but I take kids out now and then and they are either happy to stay in the cockpit, or they venture out to explore the bow. In a blow they are confined to the cockpit. In nice weather, I think that a dunking in the water might be a good character builder!

[ebb]

I'm also in the crowd that thinks the Commander shouldn't have to have lifelines or the rear pulpit for day sailing.
But if everyone on board is wearing a life jacket, then even the kids should be taught what the D-ring is for.
It wouldn't take much to get everybody to accept that.

I was just with a bunch of older types on a Triton learning how to set up the spinnaker.
I'm sure that hooking onto a jack line if it had been rigged would have seemed ridiculous or sissy since there already were too many lines to get correct and too many turns to make on the foredeck.
But imco some sort of drill that involved the simple act of clipping on to the jack strap, and unclipping it to a new position should have been included.

There is the argument that falling overboard will teach one to be more careful.

[Triton106]

I once met a couple in the Azores who were sailing their 52 foot wooden boat from Canada to the U.K. It was custom built in Canada for them based on in the design of the oringal NINA and the husband will NOT have lifeline installed regardless what the wife said. Bless her heart she went along with it and lived to tell the story. Needless to say the line is beautiful. I don't know what the lifeline will do to the line but I for one will NOT sail across the Atlantic without a lifeline does not matter how pretty the boat is.

[Frenna]

This whole discussion reminds me of a Bruce McCall spoof on an imagined WW-II Italian fighter plane design. From the end of the lengthy description:

"A remarkable feature of the plane, considering its fighter designation, was its total lack of armament. The designers successfully resisted all attempts to ruin its unbroken lines with ugly guns."

I am very hesitant to add lifelines to C231, but the added safety for kids on board at anchor, as well as under way, may be the deciding factor, though they are sure to be a nuisance for grown ups. I hope to have all lines to the cockpit anyway, but that assumes nothing ever goes wrong. Maybe Wall Street should have had a few stanchions installed too.....

[carl291]

Frenna, The way Wall Street is behaving with total lack of regard for investers and cries for government bailout, perhaps keel hauling might serve Wall Street better than another lifeline:p

[Commander227]

I just finished installing a Hoyt Jib Boom on The Princess.
Pic #1, Not real thrilled on how it disturbs the pretty lines I've been working so hard to clean up, but its only ugly at the dock. It just matches up with the foot of the sail while under sail.
Pic #2&3, I ran the out haul line under decks with the furling line. Its now a continuous loop that runs behind the tiller to a double clutch.(black lines) pull one side to unfurl and the other side to furl with out a pile of line laying about.
Pic #4&5, The self tacking sheeting runs under decks as well, entering through the coach roof then running under the starboard shelves through 3:1 block system then exiting behind the tiller.(white line in pic #3)
What a hoot to sail! The 100% self tacking jib seems perfectly matched with the reduced weight Princess. Very neutral helm and so far I have not missed the power of the 150% as the Hoyt vangs the jib as well as poling it out off the wind.
I'm currently using a jib from a larger boat that I cut down to fit. I've had it on and off a few times to make adjustments. The angles and dimensions are pretty critical as you loose your ability to move a car to change your sheeting angles. I'm pretty happy with the current cut and will use it as a pattern to build a new jib.

[Commander 147]

Mike

Looks like you found the guy with Forespar to talk to all on your own. I'm glad to see it is working out for you. That boom looks like if the forward hatch was still there it would hit it. Is it really as close to the cabin top as it looks in the picture or is it an optical illusion? Can you control where the end of the boom sits in relationship to the deck with shims under the base?

And speaking of pictures, do you think maybe some of your sailing friends might be willing to take a picture of you while under sail with the Hoyt boom in action?

[commanderpete]

Princess is Queen of the Fleet I'd say

[Tony G]

Flippin' sweet

[mbd]

The first Pearson Alerion Commander. :)

[Commander227]

I just found a picture of The Princess in a former life on the Vangaurd site. She looks like she was loved.

We are really loving sailing her with the jib boom... so much fun short tacking in tight channels, around the shoreline or in buoy fields. Also great when there are five or six passengers, no one needs to move or put down their drink when we tack. All the control lines are behind me with the exception of the main halyard.(which may be next to go below decks, maybe an electric winch?)

Jerry, yes I shimmed up the base of the jib boom to clear the coach roof with a wedge of thickened epoxy and milled glass. It would have to be shimmed up further to clear a forward hatch.

MBD, You see simularities to the Alerion??? Huh, I never noticed. What a wierd coincidence.

[PJM]

The dilemma around bow pulpits and stern rails is ongoing for me. I have a bow pulpit on Cup O' Tea IV and it's staying there. But the stern....hmmm.

Sometimes when I'm hanging out over the lazarette fussing with the enginge or rigging or something else and the boat is bucking like a bronco on these Long Island Sound waves - it sure does seem desirable.

At 6'3", guidelines are, for me, something to grab pretty late in the game. Probably on the way overboard and too late to do much good. Practically have to bend in half to reach them. That said, for kid sailors they sure do seem desirable.

So I went online in search of a pushpit. Found one fairly quickly from those boys up in Maine. But...I just can't pull the trigger. There's something about that clean, open Commander stern that just screams Alberg without the extra hardware putting a period on an otherwise never ending sentence.

Ariels, on the other hand, seem more "established" and welcome the extra chromeware.

Just my 2 cents...

Scott


I'm a little late to weigh in on this topic, but ...

I'm into my season #3 with C74, which has an A4 inboard engine. One of the things I did in season #2 was to take off lifelines and pushpit .... absolutely no regrets. Looks much better to my eye and I never really trusted the lifelines anyway. At 6'1", I can go from a hand on the companionway hatch railing to a hand on a shroud to a hand on the forward hatch, etc. I also took off the cabin top handrails, with no regrets. If I ever really felt I needed the lifelines, I'd be much more comfortable rigging jacklines and a harness.

In general, staying out of Maine waters is a desirable thing.

PJM

[Jon]

Cdr 227, I haven't seen any posts from you on your electric engine, now that you've used it for a while. I'm working on Sirocco and she will be ready for a new engine within the month, but after seeing your posts and admiring that clean install, I have begun to wonder if going electric, rather than diesel, might be a better idea. How has the electric worked out on The Princess? thanks

[Commander227]

Jon,
I'm on the second sailing season with the electric inboard and (knock on wood) so far it has been 100% reliable and surpassed my expectations.
We typically get out 2-4 times a week and since we have the electric motor we go out whether or not there is wind. It is very pleasant just tootling along the shoreline or adding a little power if the wind is real light.
I have what I conceder to be a very minimal battery bank, 4 cheap group 27 marine deep cycle batteries, and after 2 years of pretty consistent use I still get about;
1 hour wide open at hull speed or slightly above or around 6 miles. or
2 hours at 4 - 4.5 mph. or
4 hours at 3 mph which is our typical cocktail cruise speed.
There is plenty of space in the boat for a bigger and better battery bank and the range could be doubled with out much more cost or effort. It was my intention to use this small bank of common batteries to determine exactly what my needs were then keep them as a reserve and add a larger bank or just replace them. So far I have not felt the need for any more juice so I will try to get another couple of years out of them then perhaps go to group 31s.
There is plenty of power, I've never been in a position where I wanted more. I typically use around 1/4 of whats available and only use full power when changing directions or stopping when I'm coming into the slip. Great stopping power! Its like having brakes. The motor could handle a more aggressive prop, I max out the rpms at 65 amps and the controller will allow 200 amps. But I can get to hull speed so more bite isn't really needed.
Over all we love the set up and feel it's perfect for the way we use the boat. We are however in a pretty controlled environment being on an inland lake with out tides or currents. We can never get too far from home and can plug in the charger in our slip. I think if you can live with the limited range its ideal.
I've seen the new Electric Yacht package like the one Jerry is installing on Commander 147, I can't wait to compare notes with him when he gets his going. Its a nice package and they started using the same Mars PMAC motor that I installed.
Mike
C227
As a side note I just installed one of the Parson electric outboards on a 22' S2. Tons of power! It again uses the Mars PMAC motor and has a controller which will allow 100 amps. They call it a 4 hp but I think it has all the power of a 4 stroke 6 hp. Nice and quiet. I think it would be great on an Ariel or Commander.

[Commander227]

We have been having an amazing fall sailing season so far, compare these pictures to those I posted last fall on around the same dates.
Another sailor snapped these shots of The Princess with her jib boom. (which we LOVE!)

[Jon]

Man, those pics are lovely. I love the jib boom too. Tell me, where did you get it and how much trouble was it to install?

Sirocco, who was supposed to have been splashed in June, is still on the hard. She had a lot more deck problems than anyone suspected but all of that has been repaired and she's been painted. It's my understanding that the marina is reinstalling hardware and then, after all my deliberation over the matter, they will install a new Kubota 14 diesel to replace the Atomic that was pulled earlier in the summer.

I think that I'd love to have that jib boom added to the mix. That just looks like a great way to go.

cheers, jon

[Lucky Dawg]

Excuse my igornance, but I'm curious how a jib boom works with a foresail larger than the one you're flying. Or is flying a genoa simply not an option with that set up? On Lucky Dawg, my headsail choice with respect to wind conditions - and often the choice is a larger foresail - makes a big difference in our performance.

[Tony G]

We have been having an amazing fall sailing season so far, compare these pictures to those I posted last fall on around the same dates.

Yeah! No kidding there, Mike. Last October in Minne-what the #*!! am I doing here-ota was crappy! She looks beautiful out there. I'm surprised we can't see your smile in those photos.

Kyle, your 'J' cant be any longer than your jib boom. But if you doo a lot of tacking I don't see how you could beat having one. Maybe Lucky Dawg can have a asymetrical for those lower wind speeds?

[Commander 147]

Mike

Your Princess sure is a good looking boat. And thanks for posting the pics with her under sail while using the jib boom. The headsail looks well tuned using the Hoyt jib boom.

Like Lucky Dawg I am curious about how easy it is to use a genoa with the jib boom up there. Have you sailed her that way yet? Did the genoa hang up on the jib boom or did it float over it?

Also you probably don't anchor out much on your lake but I have been concerned about how much the jib boom would be in the way when anchoring out. I suppose it could be say pulled to starboard and secured near the rail for those times but the forward end of it would still be possibly in the way. What are your thoughts on that?

[Commander227]

Jon - The jib boom is a very simple install, just locate it around 10% of your "J" back from your head stay (not a critical measurement) pop 5 holes, fashion some sort of shim under it to get it to clear the coach roof and life lines if you have them, install a backing plate and bolt her on. I complicated the install a little by running the control lines and sheet under decks but that wasn't really rocket science either. I will be glassing in some structure over the winter to help support it but I need to make some decisions about some other modifications first. Any retail outfit that handles Forespar products can order you one, I have an account with them and I could order you one and have it drop shipped to you.
The sail did take some screwing around. As I mentioned before the dimensions are fairly critical as you cannot move a car to change your sheeting angles, you can change the angles by playing with your hoist, but you need to be pretty close. I have a small repair loft at the marina so I cut down an old jib from a larger boat and sailed with that making some modifications and mental notes. While I can run a sewing machine and know a little about sail shape I didn't want to loft the sail myself. I had Sailrite design and cut the sail to my dimensions and I stitched it together. As you can see by the pictures the shape is pretty good.

Kyle and Jerry - I have not flown a genoa on The Princess since I installed the jib boom, No reason I couldn't although obviously you wouldn't be using the jib boom, but I'd have to drop the jib, fold it, hoist the genoa. run the sheets,... all in all it could be an exhausting five minutes and if you haven't pick up on it yet I'm a pretty lazy sailor. I'm sure there is a better chance of fouling your genny sheets when tacking but usually you can work out a system once you find out where the problems lay. You would probably want to keep an eye on your lazy sheet and keep some tension on it.
We do anchor out quite a bit, no problem, (see pic #1 above) in fact the jib boom gives you something to hold onto when you're on the bow.

[Commander227]

I took a last minute trip out to Annapolis last Thursday to check out the big show. We flew into DCA and rented a car getting to the show around noon and left for our return flight at 5:30. (flight benefits, the one advantage to my early{read forced}retirement from the airlines where I was a mechanic for 20 years)
With only five and a half hours to take it all in it was a bit of a whirlwind. We saw about 90% of it but only stepped on a few boats that struck our fancy.

My favorite.... The Morris 42. This is the perfect combo daysailer/weekendeer for Boo and I. Sleek, beautiful, great fit and trim, easy single hander, great line management. The open floor plan below maximizes the space with an open V berth. A great husband/wife light cruiser. It'll never drop down into my price range, but one must be able to dream. Some day, maybe within 10 years, after we recover from putting our two sons through college we hope to have a boat in a warm place and do some island hopping and coastal cruising. Maybe I can find an old wore out Hinkley Sou'wester and implement some of the innovations from this boat.

Favorite knock about....The CW Hood 32...Wow! (pic #1) followed by the Rustler 24 (pic #2)

Comparable to The Princess??? As I've stated before we built The Princess to match our very specific wants and needs to sail our home waters. We love it, its perfect for how we use the lake....but what if price was not a factor, whats out there that would suit our needs?
I saw 3 boats that come close;
#1, The Harbor 25. (pic #3) This is the closest thing I saw to The Princess: I'm sure it could be custom ordered with an electric motor to replace the gas saildrive, the cuddy is of similar size and the fit and trim is better being it has a liner although the head set up left something to be desired. It is well rigged, including a jib boom although the line management is mostly above decks and not within reach of the helm. Its almost a good looking boat, but over all I'd call it a swing and a miss. Horrible stern!
#2, The Alerion 28. (sorry, no pic)Good looking boat. Saildrive with small diesel. Easy single hander, the best jib boom set up. Although again not all the lines are with in reach of the helm and most are run above the decks It's nice having the low coach roof as it has great visibility however I know Boo would not like the crouching headroom and lack of privacy not to mention having a porta-potie instead of a head.
#3, The Morris 29, (pic #4) Wow, great boat, beautiful!!! Self tacking jib, Asymmetrical spinnaker with a dousing chute, line management is excellent with all lines run under decks and great placement at the helm, small diesel saildrive, very comfortable cockpit. Again, I know Boo would be disappointed below decks, there is a head, but no headroom and no privacy.
Honorable mention. The E33 and the Alerion 33 are fantastic boats, both went back to tiller steering, have great line management and huge comfortable cockpits. The extra size really helps out below decks, although because of the extra 7' one cannot really include them in the comparison.
So, although these are overall some fantastic boats and I'm sure they point higher and sail faster, my feeling is that The Princess reigns supreme. I just need to spruce things up a little below and make some decisions about the whats and hows for my off wind sails.

[Commander 147]

Mike

Thanks for the report for those of us that could not make it all. Good looking boats and interesting to read your comments on them.

Thanks

[Commander227]

An Alerion 28 snuggling up next to The Princess

[Commander227]

Maybe I can push off the inevitable a week or two and get a couple more sails in before the ice.

[carl291]

Mike , Would you have a bow stem fitting lurking in your parts inventory for an Electra/Ensign? Thanks, Carl

[Lucky Dawg]

[QUOTE=Commander227;22327] And then there was one. [QUOTE] When I look at your docks completely full, the Princess is the only yacht I see.

[Commander227]

Sorry Carl, I'm short one myself. Zeke @ Ensign Spars can hook you up with a new one. Not sure of the cost.
Thanks Kyle, I miss her! Here it is, 6pm, its been dark out since 4:30, I'm probably in for the night, waiting for a foot of snow to dump on me tomorrow then a high of -2 on Sunday with a wind chill of -30. Alas, a few short months ago I would just be loading up the cooler heading out for a balmy night sail. Woe unto me. I am distressed; sad; grieved.
Mike

[carl291]

Ok Thanks Mike, Zeke gets about $245 for the original looking one.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike,
From your list in post 91 (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1803-Commander-227&p=19916#post19916), it looks like a single gallon each of Duratech and Awlgrip was required for your deck priming and painting? I'm assuming it was the Duratec White Vinyl Ester Primer. I'd prefer not to overbuy, of course. The prices look like it was a gallon each unless you get a great deal at Tonka Bay. Also, it looks like you used a Dremel for attacking your crazing (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1803-Commander-227&p=18827#post18827) - is that accurate?
Thanks,
Kyle

p.s. (Sorry to trouble you with all of these questions. You seem to knock out the grandest of undertakings with speed and efficiency, so I'm trying to utilize your mojo! On the Phoenix, you mention a blue vinylester paste (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2103-Commander-299&p=20847#post20847). Could you tell me about that briefly? The crazing on Lucky Dawg is pretty extensive and that looks to fill nicely. I imagine routing out the crazing and filling with this prior to priming.)

[Commander227]

I stripped down The Princess's mast this spring to do a few mods. I had to drill out a fair amount of the screws and the mast base took me over an hour to remove with a torch and slide hammer.
I wanted to run the halyards internally. I just took out the large main halyard shieve and used Ronstan blocks in the slot. The spinnaker halyard runs to a block on the mast head fitting, then dives into the mast a foot or so from the top.
I pop riveted 1/2" pvc waterline inside of the mast through some of the holes for the old sail track for a wire chase. I did not want the wires to get fouled up with the new internal halyards. I also did not want the wires banging against the inside of the mast.
The mast has had its share of hardware and antennas bolted to it over the years so I had a buddy weld up the extra holes. I had the mast re anodized but I was unhappy with the results so I painted it with left over Awlcraft from the deck paint job. I found a place that would do the anodizing for $50. The problem was that the rosette welds which disappeared completely after I sanded them down showed up vividly after the anodizing. the mast also had a slight green hue to it.
I replaced the sail track with Harken micro traveler track and added a track to the front for a spinnaker pole. I lashed an old traveler car to the sails head board and stitched plastic slides on the rest of the sail to fit the track. I can use the Harken batt car system on my next mainsail. I ran the track down the mast low enough so the boom slides on the same track. I had to fabricate a new goose neck fitting.
Pic #1 Welding up holes
Pic #2 The yellow line through the clutch is the jib halyard, being I have a roller furling jib there is no need to have a full halyard sitting on the mast all summer so I just attach extra line when I'm going to drop the sail.
The other line is for the internal spin pole topping lift.
Pic #3 Main and spinnaker halyards.
Pic #5 Mast head

[Commander227]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4JkGOmOnDI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[Rico]

Beautiful work!

I've procrastinated on rigging-up for my spinnaker... But with the wind blowing here, I have not been so eager to try & fly the kite!

[carl291]

Mike, Here's a lead on a Commander..... 1965 Pearson Commander 26 - Please Contact (Dallas) (http://dallas.ebayclassifieds.com/boats/dallas/1965-pearson-commander-26/?ad=12159015)

[Tony G]

Nice mods to the big stick, Mike.

Hey, what a coincidence! I was just shopping for exit plates a couple of days ago! I decided to nix the cast mast head (and spreader sockets) and try to find the best compromise in designing a new welded top piece. We're going to accomodate spare halyards and that pretty much relagates us to internals as I don't want a mess of lines slapping the mast. I'm diggin' where you're going with the foresail halyard. What do you use to attach your...extension? Just tie them together? Mechanical?

Did you do your own patching there? We could use a bit of filling here too. And with sheaves that are a smaller diameter than the originals we are going to have that inch and a half by five inch hole to fill in on the top.

Anyway, it's always good to see some photos of your work and I can't wain to see The Princess in person.

Oh yeah, nice gybe and nice looking asym. Is that an 'inhouse' sail?

[Tony G]

Did you do your own patching there?

I guess I should focus a little more on reading, huh?:o

[Commander227]

Carl, thanks for the lead...the boat is beautiful! They are touch with each other so I hope they can hammer out a deal and we can get another Commander in our little fleet.
Tony, The Ronstan blocks I used fit nicely in the big slot from the main shieve. I don't know why you could not just stack a couple up to get your extra halyards.
I will strip an inch or two from The bitter end of the jib halyard and whip in a thin loop that I can tie a length of Spider wire or other thin cordage to raise and lower the jib.
Mike
227

[commanderpete]

I don't see how the Princess could be further improved, but you'll think of something

Queen of the Fleet I tell 'ya...Queen of the Fleet

[Lucky Dawg]

I concur. That mast renovation is just plain sick.

[carl291]

Your Welcome Mike, I wish I could quit looking though, LOL I just bought this; http://www.sailboatlistings.<wbr>com/view/23283 (http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/23283) I bought a 2 cylinder Yanmar a couple of weeks ago and got on board a Triton undergoing a refit , and instantly loved the interior room. Also got to look at the thickness of the hull in several places where through hulls were located, the mininum was 5/8" with bulk being 3/4" . This was on #636 so I'm hoping the same crew laid up this boat #705. The one I bought is supposed to be a one owner boat who died and the family was trying to sell this boat for a ridiculous price. The yard finally stepped in wanting their storage fee and ended up with the boat. 706 has to be right at the end of the run for the Triton. With only 4 stanchons and 4 shrouds water intrusion should at a mininum . The decks are solid and only one soft spot at the rear of the cockpit

[Tony G]

Mike,

I think stacking the blocks in that slot may be strong enough for headsails. I thought having a 3/8" bolt through the center of the sheaves would handle the loaded stress of the main halyard better long term. My rationale was, we are getting away from the cast aluminum fittings, why not 'two birds-one stone'.

Do you think the mast would have to be reinforced around the slot? If so, how would you proceed? You know-What Would Mike Do? ;)

[carl291]

Mike Don't forget Chance is still trying to sell his Commander, with a new trailer
Commander #256 (Ceili) (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1882-Commander-256-%28Ceili%29)

[Commander227]

I don't see how the Princess could be further improved, but you'll think of somethingt
The Princess could still use some help down below...some cabinets, board and batton head liner and such...in my minds eye I see Ta Shing Panda, but in my heart I know it will look like a 7th grade shop project. Finish carpenter I ain't.

Tony, why do you want to ditch your cast mast head fitting? Or do you just mean the big shieve? I tried to find some info on main halyard loads when I was choosing my blocks. Suprisingly I found most people figure it is equal to the outhaul loads. I know, it doesn't seem right and I'm not sure I believe it. I think the blocks I used had about a 600lbs working load. I'll let you know how they hold up. Of course we are building boats for different purposes you and I.
When you coming down for a sail?

Carl, keep the leads coming. I know they have talked to Chance, they may circle back to him. The owner of the boat out east that has been restored hasn't settled on a price yet. Also I heard that Sailorliz's boat is back on the market.
Your new Triton looks great. But Dude, you need to stop this ADD boat buying and settle on one boat!!!! How many are in your yard now?

[carl291]

Mike, I swear everyone is the last, 3 Electras, 2 Ariels, 1 Triton. The last Electra I got to too late, the owner whacked the keel off for the lead, but I did get a very nice mast and the bow stem fitting that I needed for the rescue of another Electra I rescued in CT,which will float this summer. the boat price was $250 including a new head sail, good coamings winches etc. etc.. Who could say no to that? At least this boat was only 90 miles from home. Excluding the Triton the rest have been either I rescue them or it's to the scrap yard. It is getting out of hand! LOL, Time to get on the water! The Triton will get a necessary refit of items to make it a safe passage maker and it will be in the Bahamas next Winter. If you know someone who wants a major Ariel project boat let me know, no interior , inboard model, all components included no engine.

[ebb]

Carl you are the absolute greatest:D

[Tony G]

If you know someone who wants a major Ariel project boat let me know, no interior , inboard model, all components included no engine.

That sounds like a perfect starting point for the next project! ;) I keep thinking of ways to sway Frank to entertain some of the ideas swimming around my brain pan...

[carl291]

ebb, Thanks, These boats are national treasures
Tony, LOOK!!!! a blank canvas for you, the artist! Ariels are very roomy when they are hollow!:cool:

[Commander227]

So I raced The Princess a couple of weeks ago with the new asymmetric spinnaker... it went up slow as there was a ride in the halyard, it filled before I could get the tack line in hard so I had to pull really hard. I think I cursed. we gybed at the reach mark and the lazy sheet grabbed the neck of my beer bottle and knocked it over. I think I cursed again. As I doused at the leeward mark and the kite buried my poor sweetheart. I think she cursed. I was heading back to the windward mark with 460 sq/ft of sailcloth, 40' of tackline, 120' of spin sheets and 35' of halyard on the cockpit floor. My wife looked at me and said "this isn't very civilized". You know, she was right.
Here is my solution:
Facnor FX-1500 Code Zero furler
18" bow sprit
Under deck furling line
Believe me. This is a MUCH more civilized way to go downhill.

[Lucky Dawg]

Mike sees a problem and whips out a solution in a flash. Might you consider fixing the healthcare system?

[Tony G]

Mike,

I am so sorry to read of your mishaps! The horrid sound of a beer bottle bounding loosely around the cockpit and careening out of control just ahead of and out of reach of the hand had to be unbearable. Your wife was right, as I'm sure you realized immediately. After watching the video clip of your first gybe, which appeared flawless, one could only surmise that others to follow might be less 'graceful'.

Timing is working out great for me thanks to you. I have been drawing lines and cutting out ptterns for a bowsprit with the main focus being anchor rollers. So I have been leaning a little more toward resistance to a downward pull. But I have also tossed around the idea of a tack for an asymetrical cruising chute out there too. A fulrer is a bit more than I was planning but it makes perfect sense for 'Princess'. You nailed the proportions! It looks great. As though it was there all along.

So I gotta ask. Could you do a little write-up about materials, construction and what not? Did this set-up change whats going on at the mast head?

Standing by,

Tony G

P.s. About that summer sail...we just moved, again. PIA! The upshot is we down sized again, but we're still loaded down with enough posssions for a 32-35 ft boat. We're getting there! Belize 2013!

[Commander227]

Tony,
To make room on the masthead I just drilled and tapped for three 5/16" bolts deep into the top of the cast masthead and bolted on 2' 12ga. X 3/4" stainless square tube. I have the aft end sticking out so I can move my backstay to it and get a larger roach on my next mainsail.
(anyone want to buy a two year old main after this season?)
The sprit was a pretty simple addition. two pieces of 3/4" marine plywood bonded together. I picked this dimension simply because that matched the rubrail. it is through bolted with stainless threaded rod with the nuts counterbored and the rubrail covering them. it was installed with 5200.
The bobstay tang is just bolted through the bow. The way I see it, the sprit is mostly experiencing compression loads and slight side loads. My only engineering was to look at how flimsy a old Catalina 30 sprit is and build mine a little stronger. That sucker has been carrying a big old masthead 150% genoa for 30 years without any problems.

[mbd]

... anyone want to buy a two year old main after this season? ...
Yes! I could really use a newer main since I'll be going engine-less until I can afford to fix/repower. How much do you want for it?

[ebb]

Mike,
I've pretty much been blown away with what you've accomplished on your stretch Ensign! So I've had to keep my flapper shut.

And having read your description of that amazing bowsprit addition, in terms of materials, it is obvious that the bowsprit is integral with the toerail.
It certainly looks like you didn't changeout the original bow fitting - correct?
If so, then you must have added your ply stack in a kind of fork.
In other words you would have had to dap 1 1/2" deep into the flat area the bow fitting occupies by carving away the sides to land the extension. How much original material was removed?
Don't know if that is clear, but can you please explain how the connection was made?

What you have there I never would have conceived. Honest, I have stacks of info on every kind of bowsprit, from spruce, to metal, to carbon, that we might have expected to see on The Princess if we knew it was coming.
I also want a bowsprit on litlgull (A338) and have assumed from the beginning that it had to be a 3' POLE extension. Maybe not, now!
I have made two sprits, one of wood, one of aluminum, and both ended up too heavy in my mind. And cannot be installed.
Your invention is in keeping with the impressive and clean stripped-down day sailor The Princess has become.

I scrolled out a plywood V-shaped concept sprit in the beginning that more or less took its shape off the inside of the toerails, skirted the bow fitting, and terminate 3' outboard. Maybe I should go back to that.
Am persuaded anyway that original ideas, the ones you didn't think too much about, are probably the right ones.

I bought a used screecher from Bacon on impulse - just because I was totally impressed with the concept of the furler being integral with the sail. Don't know much more really, but now I understand it's a Code Zero I should be planning on. Screechers are cut for trimarans.

Why do you believe the sideloads are so light. Is it your sailing location? Plus the length of the sprit?
Do know that what I'm asking litlgull to do is very different from The Princess.
Any bowspeit on a cruiser has to be involved in anchoring.

SO, HOW did you attach The Princess' pretty beak.:cool:
Thanks!

[Commander227]

Ebb -
Imagine cutting the neck off this Flying Wedge guitar and trimming out the crotch to provide 1/4" clearance for the stem fitting. The inside surfaces of the tines could be beveled to match the shape of the hull/deck joint. Then if your lovely assistant were to hold it firmly in place (paying particular attention to keeping it in line with the shear) you could drill two holes using a 12" drill bit through a tine, the bow and, if you didn't bury too much of the bit in the chuck, out the other tine. Threaded rod could then be passed through these holes as a method of attachment. Of course I cannot see the harm in glassing in some blocking to the inside of the hull/deck joint or over-sizing the attachment holes and filling them with a stout epoxy mix of some kind. I guess pre paint job I could see myself glassing the Flying Wedge to the hull, but installing it with liberal amounts of 3M 5200 would perhaps give you the confidence of permanency you are likely looking for.
As the unmolested stem fitting and forestay are actually doing the work of keeping the mast up, one could look at a total structural failure of the Flying Wedge or its attachments as "trivial" or an "annoyance of sorts".

As you said Ebb, our boats are being put to very different uses. Given the fact that I can never be farther than 6.5 miles from my marina or half that to the nearest shore I can proceed with this sort of thing much more lightly and with much less fore thought than those of you who will actually go somewhere in your little boats. I think to add ground tackle to the sprit you would want a stay to the masthead to counter the bobstay.

Mike
C227
P.S. Good news!!! we have another Commander coming to our neck of the woods. A fellow who lives down the shoreline a mile or two from the marina found a nice fresh water boat from Cleveland on ebay. He is not sure of the hull # yet but it has the old style. companionway.

[carl291]

Mike, I was watching that Comm. on Ebay .... not to buy, but to see where the price went, that is a nice looking and equipped boat , glad it's going to a good home. Carl

[ebb]

Found a vintage Electra Flying Wedge but they wanted $350 for it,
so I may go with carbon fiber or maybe even G-10.

Trying to think how to connect the strings,
thought they might do double duty for the bob stay.
I can sing along to Swing Low Sweet Chariot going into a chop!:cool:

[Ariel 109]

I can't think of many better uses for a vintage Gibson Flying V guitar than as a bowsprit on a Commander plying the waters of the land of ten thousand lakes, except.....


http://youtu.be/wdDRCIEEZ3w

[carl291]

Mike , here's a $999 commander on ebay now.... in NJ second time it's run the course
<table width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#efefef"></tr><tr bgcolor="#efefef"><td>1967 26 ft. Pearson Sailboat (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&toolid=10005&campid=5335879740&customid=1&icep_item=320762229016&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=rss)</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Pfeilclan]

I am also a Commander owner (#20) from the Cleveland Yachting Club, OH, and have a question about whether you still have the hinges from your hatch which you removed several years ago. The hinges on my engine well cover have been damaged and I'm looking to find replacements. (The part that connects to the deck).

[SkipperJer]

I can't help you but I know that Chance Smith, owner of Cieli, had problems which he solved finding replacements for the lazerette hinges on his boat. you might look him up in the members list and email him for help. I know there is a left and a right hand version; they are not interchangeable.

[Commander 147]

Commander 20 if you can't find anyone with some here is a possible option.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2784&familyName=Hatch+Hinge

[Commander227]

Commander 20,
I sent my hinges off to someone else on the board.
We are going to remove the outboard well on another boat this winter. (157 from Cleveland as well) I'll ask the owner if he is willing to send the hinges off to you.

[Pfeilclan]

Thanks for the heads up. I'm following up on a couple leads. Really appreciate all the support.

[Pfeilclan]

C 157 docked right across from me at the Cleveland Yachting Club for many years! Small world to think that C 20 might someday wear Job Cite's hinges. The former owners have some history on 157 if anybody's interested.

[Commander227]

Pfeilclan,
I'm sure John would love to hear about her past. He is willing to give you the hinges.
Send me an email with your address and I'll send them off to you.
Did you guys at CYC have a Commander fleet? It seems many have come from there.
Mike
C227

[Commander227]

The Princess served as the backdrop for some Brooks Brother catalog photos this week.
The producer said she'd send me the finished pictures.
The Princess received $350. for "location Fees"... I wonder what she'll do with the money.

[Lucky Dawg]

Northern Minnesota is an interesting place to choose for an outdoor sailing shoot in mid April! That must have been a BB whim, not a plan from last Fall.
I'm sure you'll find something fantastic to do with your $350.

[Commander227]

Well ya don't see much of The Princess, and I thought they were shooting stills for a catalog but here is the ad.
http://youtu.be/VIxElBSPkSA
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VIxElBSPkSA?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[carl291]

Mike, Lowes or Home Depot (can't remember now) used my farm house for a Halloween TV ad one time shortly after we bought the place. They spent 2 days adding props to the yard and house and one full day of shooting video. It ended up a 60 second commercial and about as much of the house was in the ad as the Princess is in this video. I had to go to work the day they filmed but was told the whole little community turned out to watch the shoot. With what they spent on my little 60 second spot it is no wonder movies cost millions to make.

[Lucky Dawg]

Can you tell me how you terminated the white rubber Eagle moulding on the Princess? Don't know if you shaved it down on either end, or... I am trying to reuse the orignial aluminum moulding to fit to it - as it is made to accept. In scratching my head about how to proceed, it has hung out in my garage for over a year not being addressed! Any pointers or detail pictures would be great.
Thanks,
KW

[Commander227]

Kyle,
I just trimmed the aft ends to match the profile if the transom and butted it up against the stem fitting up front. I smeared a little 5200 around to fill the gaps and make it look like I did a good job of trimming to fit and let it go at that. Great thing about boats... They only have to look good from fifty feet to look perfect!
Mike

[Commander227]

The Princess and her sister downwind during the Burton Cup this summer.
We were overlapped for over 5 miles!

[Commander227]

Upwind at the Burton Cup

[mbd]

Cool. That pic makes The Princess look like a 30 footer!

[ebb]

That's exactly so! 30' or mo' Sleek!
Like to see something on the cyrano.

[Commander227]

Still feels like winter here in Minnesota... Freezing rain and snow for most of this week, highs in the 30s and low 40s, night time lows below freezing. We still have over 24" of ice on the lake. But we've had some nice days, the days are getting longer and spring will come.
Big changes for me, I resigned as manager or SYC last fall and will soon be selling my % to my partner. (Lesson learned, never a minority partner be.)
I am having rotator cuff surgery next week, so with one arm and no shop I brought The Princess up to Bob's shop to have him do the spring tune up. On the list is the bright work which really needed to be done last spring. Recoat the bottom, I got four years on the Vivid bottom paint but that should have been done last spring as well. I noticed last fall that water was getting into the cockpit sole core around my rudder post. I caulked the joint to get me through the year but now I'll have Bob open it up and repair it properly. There are also four years worth of nicks and scratches I'll have him tune up.
With the slow recovery from shoulder surgery I'm sure to be truly "single handing" a lot this summer. The Princess's simple rigging will be even more appreciated.
There will be 5 Commanders on the lower lake this summer and there is some talk of informal One Design racing. We'll see if that pans out.

[Commander 147]

Mike

Sorry to hear your shoulder is giving you issues. I had that surgery done several years ago and it went surprisingly well. I think I even surprised my surgeon when I went back for a follow up and he wanted to see what range of motion I had after the arm had been in a sling. I did not want to have my shoulder freeze up by being immobolized for a long time so I would occasionally take my arm out of the sling and work at my desk with it out of the sling. I did not push it but just got some movement going so it did not freeze up. Seemed to help.

You know all this time I've been working on Destiny I had stuff sitting in the aft end of the cockpit so I did not walk on the cockpit floor in that area until recently. It pretty much ticked me off when I felt the mushy floor there also. So While I do the elec. installation I will also be recoring the cockpit sole. Silly me I thought I was done with recoring work.

[ebb]

Hope both you and Princess heal flawlessly!

[Rico]

Hey Mike - Best of luck on the minor repairs /tune-up you and the Princess are getting... And best of luck on the new ventures! Let us know what you are up to.
Cheers!

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike,
Had my rotator cuff repaired on 2/12/13 and like Jerry it went surprisingly well. This is my second round, the first being 8 years ago. In addition to this surgeon gloriously (for me) using a nerve block that rendered my arm 100% numb as a 2x4 for about 18 hours - he also ordered an cold compression contraption like the one below for me to use and it was my best friend for 2 weeks - especially when sleeping. It was about $400 to rent, but SO worth every penny. 43* water circulating through a firm hug around my shoulder for many of those initial hours kept the swelling at bay. My first surgery recovery with no initial nerve block or ice machine was really, really painful, but I took only ibuprofen for this one!! 8 weeks post surgery and I'm just now allowed to start using very light resistance with my physical therapy protocol. Like Jerry, I released myself from my sling regularly after a couple days, but it is really easy to accidentally use that arm like it's functional. When you start to feel good at about 4 weeks, is apparently the critical time that most people re-tear. Resist the urge, Man. It is slow, but you should be good to go at 3 months. Your 24" of ice might be melted by then.

8875

This is the one I had: http://www.thermotekusa.com/md_vascutherm.php

[Commander227]

Perhaps one of our last sails of the year in shorts and tees last night. High 80s, 10 knots breeze and a lake devoid of powerboats. Life is good.

[Commander 147]

Okay I'm officially jealous.... I've been working 7 days a week for 5 weeks now and unable to even touch Destiny. I need a life......

[Commander227]

Beautiful night. Light wind, close reaching under code zero, migrating pelicans...

[Tony G]

You live a charmed life, Mike.

[Commander227]

Another great sail last night, beautiful sunset at the same time as a full moon rising. Blowing a perfect 10 knots, a nice cheese plate, hoppy IPA, Acustic Greatful Dead playing and my arm around my sweetie.
The Princess is comming out of the water on Saturday as we will be traveling in the beginning of October so we have been happy for the warm nights.

[ebb]

Don't know, but I can see a monster head in the twinkling !:eek:

[Commander227]

So sad to call it early this year.
The Ensign in the picture, Tranquility, is my Dad's boat that he bought new in 1965 and has raced every year since. Dad worked for Honeywell as a EE and bought the boat with his overtime earnings while working on an escape system for one of the Apollo missions. ($2,200. w/o sails) the mission he worked on landed in the Sea of Tranquility on the moon, giving her her name. six of us kids learned to love sailing on this boat. Dad would let us take her out by ourselves when we turned 13 if we could pass his test. In those days before jet skis it was a thrill. Great lessons on independence and responsibility.
We had our last Ensign race last Thursday. At 85 dad no longer sails without a crew so we pulled her early as well. It was nice to get them cleaned up and put away in nice weather.
Not sure why the pictures are upside down...

[Commander 147]

Mike

I grew up in Wisconsin and moved to Florida in 1977. It is really easy for me to lose track of how short your season up there is. Here in Florida we have an official sailing season that is more like 6 months but it is possible to sail year round. You just have to live close enough to the boat to get out in the summer when the weather allows. But when Destiny goes back in the water she will stay there 9 months out of the year or the mirror opposite of your situation. We should turn into snow birds and go back and forth with the weather!!!!

[Commander227]

Finally got around to cleaning up The Princess the other day. We have had an awful and very late spring. You just gotta love that Awlgrip paint! It's been years now and look at that shine.

After leaving the marina business I am returning to the buoy I kept my Ensign on for 10 years. It is only 2 blocks from my house and a heck of a lot cheaper than a slip. I'll be setting up a generator to charge the battery bank now that I don't have shore power. If you look close you can see her twin C157 down the shore line.

It would seem that The Princess took a knock on the snout by a gravel truck over the winter. Half of her bow sprit was cracked off when I removed her cover. I built up another with MDO plywood, coated it with epoxy and reprinted. This time I installed her with epoxy and 406 filler. I had the last one thru bolted and glued on with 5200 as it was a bit of an experiment and I wasn't sure I'd keep it. Now I'm sure.
We've had one nice sail so far and are hoping for many more this summer.

[Commander227]

Great sailing over the Forth, we are finally getting a little summer weather. We are coming off the rainiest June in history, the lakes are at record levels. As a result an emergency minimum wake rule has been set for all the Metro lakes for the last two weeks and it is expected to remain in effect thru July!!!! As you can imagine power boat traffic is down about 50% and the water is nice and flat. Super pleasant out there!

[Commander 147]

Wow, what a great shot Mike!!! The picture of The Princess is also looking pretty good. She looks almost like you just finished painting her! BTW I replied to your PM.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike,
Saw this and thought of you. Your next electric conversion. http://www.zelectricmotors.com/

9306

[Commander227]

Forever the optimist, last fall when I Hauled out The Princess I tore out most of the interior figuring I'd have all winter to fashion something new. I also pulled the combing boards that probably should have been done last year. So... June rolls around and nothing has been touched. drats. Last time I finished the combing boards I applied 3coats of varnish and several coats of automotive clear coat. It looked good for quite a few years but holy cow was it a ***** to sand off. Not ever wanting to go thru that again I went with Cetol natural teak. Not nearly as fancy looking but the annual upkeep should be easier. We'll see.
This is the second season The Princess is moored in a buoy field instead of a dock and I've had some things to work around that I want to address with the new interior. With the electric inboard I needed to install a generator for charging. I put in a thru hull for the exhaust and welded a flare fitting on the muffler of a small Honda. I'm using a stainless gas supply line to route the exhaust. Then I wired an old landscape timer to the kill switch so I can let it run for a few hours after I leave her. My 15amp smart charger was fine when I had shore power but I don't want to run the generator for 8 hours to finish off the trickle top off. Sears had a clearance sale on good old dumb 10a/2a charges, 20 bucks a pop. I picked up four and now I can hit the bank hard for an hour and let the timer shut it down. Also works good to power along under the generator if the battery's run down. The buoy field is pretty tight but I don't think the other boats will be damaged when she burns to the waterline.
Being I have 110v available now I teed off the head inlet and ran a line to a small shallow well pump so I can more easily wash her down. Pretty great, more power than my garden hose at home.
Now I need to find more elegant mounting for the new gizmos and hammer together an interior.
Mike
C227

[carl291]

Happy Fourth Mike, Looks like a well thought out package..... right down to the protection of neighboring boats (LOL) Maybe after some trials you can figure out how many ounces of gas needs to be in the generator tank to run it dry and kill the engine. Enjoy the Summer. Carl

[Lucky Dawg]

You're supposed to be sailing Man!!!! I've been there, so I feel your pain.

[Commander227]

This year will certainly go down as the worst for The Princess and I.
Late start, unfinished projects, burned out motor controller, hit by free roaming sailboats...twice!

Spent the eavning of the Fourth out on the boat, good times, company,etc. after the fireworks we decided to toddle around abit. After a mile or so I smelled a little ozone and the electric inboard shut down. Luckily there was just enough breeze to sail back to the buoy. A couple days later I had time to go check it out and found that the controller was dead. Of course that one is no longer made so things had to be rewired abit for the new one. Still having problems after many frustrating hours.
There is a beautiful new Commander in my buoy field. ( it has no data tag, sail number is 44 but it has a bridge deck so it must be a higher number ) Chris, the owner, has been working on it for years after it was struck by lightning. He has done a truly beautiful job. A week or two after he splash it for the first time the anchor cable on his buoy snapped. As Red Ink drifted by The Princess her untethered buoy wound around The Princesses buoy and the two rode out the storm side by side bucking in the waves. Red Ink rides a little higher than The Princess so most of the damage was to the lovely red boat. (A week or two later her new buoy failed and she ended up against the docks of a condo association down wind. She is now at the town dock waiting for the city to replace the buoys and I think she suffered more damage in this weekends Gustnado. Poor old gal. The Princesses damage was a lot of red paint on her rubrail, some chipping on the deck and a few gouges in the free board.
Then in last weekends Gustnado a Hunter 25 broke free and spent a little time banging into The Princess before playing ping pong down the city docks. More scratches, dings, chips, crack in the recently replaced how sprit and a couple feet of rub rail knocked off. (I should be greatful it's not as bad as this weekends damage to the stunning C157, Polaris. But I'm not. )
I'm about ready to pull her out and call it a season, but Polaris is sitting on my trailer.

[Commander 147]

Wow Mike rough year there. It has to be frustrating. And now 3 commanders with damage from the stuff happening there. So where are you going to put the Princess to work on her?

[Bisquit]

Mike,
Kyle said there is a chance you may have one of the cast aluminium cowl vents like he has on his boat. I have the deck plate and was hoping to replace the vent. Any ideas?

Phil, C-025 Bisquit

[Commander227]

O.K., here we go.
After this summers minor disasters Chris with Red Ink and The Princess and I have teamed up and rented a heated warehouse to get our boats back in order.
We both have a bunch of cosmetic work to get thru and The Princess will be repowered with a little 2 cylinder Universal diesel. I picked up the diesel last winter when I installed an electric motor in a O'Day 28. It needed a tranny rebuild, water pump and injector retipping. I got her all cleaned up and have dubbed her " the Heart of Gold" after Douglas Adams improbability driven ship.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike,
Glad to see you back!
Dissatisfied with your electric drive? Mooring vs dock driven decision?

P.s. Is Red Ink the no-eyes Commander?

[Bill]

" ( it has no data tag, sail number is 44 but it has a bridge deck so it must be a higher number )" We have her in db as number C-049, but that number was likely given to us by Chris when he registered with the association. Sometimes, hull numbers have been found written on the cabin trunk under the liner on Ariels . . .

[Commander227]

"No Eyes" is Chance's old boat Ceili. She now has the beautiful lights installed that Chance had bought for her. They were a different dimension so needed to be glassed up and recut when they painted her decks. She was only blind for a year. Rumor has it she will get her freeboard painted and a new bottom this winter. She is well loved and sails often.

I hope to get some pictures of Red Ink's Pheonix like return to this world. She had been struck by lightning and burned. As I understand it Chris replaced the entire bow section forward of the cabin.

As for The Princess's repower;
I will certain miss the ease of use. The quiet, vibration less operation. And until this summer the reliability. So why change?
The range mostly, and the decreased efficiency since moving to a buoy. The range has been fine as long as I'm not in too big a hurry. Cruising at around hull speed really eats up the juice. I'm thinking of racing The Princess regularity this summer and many times in light wind that requires motoring to and from the course which is on the other side of the lake and it's kinda tight to get there in time.
Also, my son will be moving to Door County, WI. after he graduates in the spring. (He landed a job as a Design Engineer with Marine Travel Lift) Door County has wonderful sailing grounds on Lake Michigan and I'd like to keep The Princess there part of the year. The diesel will be a more appropriate power plant for the Great Lakes and safer for my son to use on his own.

[Bisquit]

Those two commanders look cozy in there. Maybe there will be an Ensign next fall.

[Commander 147]

"As for The Princess's repower;
I will certain miss the ease of use. The quiet, vibration less operation. And until this summer the reliability. So why change?
The range mostly, and the decreased efficiency since moving to a buoy. The range has been fine as long as I'm not in too big a hurry. Cruising at around hull speed really eats up the juice. I'm thinking of racing The Princess regularity this summer and many times in light wind that requires motoring to and from the course which is on the other side of the lake and it's kinda tight to get there in time.
Also, my son will be moving to Door County, WI. after he graduates in the spring. (He landed a job as a Design Engineer with Marine Travel Lift) Door County has wonderful sailing grounds on Lake Michigan and I'd like to keep The Princess there part of the year. The diesel will be a more appropriate power plant for the Great Lakes and safer for my son to use on his own.


Mike


More than most others I can understand your decision to go to the diesel inboard. I had some serious issues with my electric drive initially but since I finally got all of those issues worked out I now have a really good feel for both the electric option and the internal combustion engine option which I have used many times before.


The electric motor things I really like are as follows;


1.) Instantly available aux. power. When you find yourself needing just a little extra forward power just slide the throttle forward and you have it.


2.) Quiet operation. I love coming into the dock and being able to talk to others on board or on the dock in a normal tone. The same holds true for motoring when we lose the wind entirely.


3.) No messy fuel or oil to deal with on board. The boat stays clean and odor free.


4.) Free fuel. Since my slip rental includes electric I have no fuel cost above the slip rental cost.


The electric motor things I am NOT so fond of are as follows;


1.) Getting to the boat to go sailing and finding that the power at the marina was down for an extended time and my battery charge is low. You can't just pour more fuel in the tank and proceed to go sailing. Charging takes time.


2.) Motoring range. I'm finding that in real life the range I was expecting to get from my battery bank is significantly less than the theoretical range I anticipated getting. Also speed with the electric needs to be kept low if you need to go any long distances.


3.) I am reasonably good with mechanics but not as well versed with electrical engineering. So many things I could solve with an internal combustion engine but not so many that might crop up with the electric drive.


4.) Available repair people for an electric drive are MUCH harder to come by than for gas or diesel engines.


5.) Limited places to get repair parts from.


6.) The potential that you could in fact burn your boat to the ground. If these high amperage circuits are not properly wired there is a very real potential to have an electrical fire that would be impossible to contain.


7.) Battery cost. If you need to replace the batteries (and let's face it that is only a matter of time) it is a pretty expensive thing to do. My batteries cost $2500.00 the first go around and things are not getting less expensive as time goes on.


So while I like my electric drive while my boat is on the lake I'm not so sure it would be an appropriate choice for a "big water" boat.

[ebb]

Pricey bigger boats are leaving the factory with electric motors and solar panels. They
are sewing panels onto sails now (SolarCloth mains). Retractable OceanVolt saildrive
leg powered by 1/3 AGM weight lithium batteries. OceanVolt also can get a folding
prop to open in neutral and spin it to help charge the system.

Well, only mean to say: electric propulsion is here to stay big time.
J/Boats J/88c is all electric. OV sail drive. SolarCloth sails from UK Sailmakers.
Gunboat G4 Beneteau foiling cat with a retractable OV saildrive leg. Get it up and GO.

Torqeedo has just arrived with a 100lb 20 horse OB with 10,000 watt input power, 5600
watts propulsive power. 5k. Don't know what batts won't drain immediately or how to
keep them charged from a 26' platform. It's coming, but holy conniptions, it's pricey!!

Jerry, Thanks for the pros and cons. You have some cons there never dreamed of! I'm
seriously considering cashing out some of my retirement funds for this still new stuff.
Don't know what I doing really. Keep looking over here for inspiration..sold my Yamaha
8-4... no way will there'll be petroleum aboard... ever again!

Even talked with OV, who could help me for $20,000 or so with a horizontal motor like
you guys! My Ariel always had a well. And the "bank account" is no way deep enough.

[Commander227]

After talking to Chris (of Red Ink) I'm convinced that I caused the controller burnout on The Princess by running her off the generator. He had talked to a tec at Kelly Controls who told him the generator voltage was not clean enough for the controllers. Makes sense, I did run her pretty hard a few times.
C227

[Commander 147]

After talking to Chris (of Red Ink) I'm convinced that I caused the controller burnout on The Princess by running her off the generator. He had talked to a tec at Kelly Controls who told him the generator voltage was not clean enough for the controllers. Makes sense, I did run her pretty hard a few times.
C227


Mike thanks for letting us know that. I actually contemplated doing something similar myself and now I know better!

[Commander227]

Repowered progresses;
Mounts in and power plant bolted in and aligned. Was able to slide it in from the cuddy with only minor disassembly. Using a 3 gallon outboard tank modified for the fuel return. Found a used two lever shift/throttle. A little clunky but needed the two lever as the fuel shut off is part of the throttle assembly on the engine. Back past idle shuts down fuel. Wanted engine weight as far forward as possible so the front mount is on the re enforced cuddy sole. Still need to run exhaust, order a shift cable, repair old instrument pan and mount engine cluster then get creative building a doghouse around the engine.

[Commander227]

Working on the new interior.
Port side: cooler drop in, booze bottle holder, cup holders, junk drawer and rubber maid bin storage below.
Starboard side:
Hanging locker, sail locker, pull out garbage, counter space for fix'in the cheese and fruit plates.

[Commander227]

We had our earliest ice out since the late 1800's this year, so we are already in.
The City completely replace their buoy system after last year's break a ways. Everything top notch.
Had a new radial jib made by Sail Crafters, so much more power out of that little guy! Shape is fantastic!
Newly installed diesel (the heart of gold) is purring along nicely. We hit hull speed at around 1/2 throttle on smooth water and she will stop on a dime so there is plenty of power. We will have to adjust to actually hearing the motor after being spoiled by the electric. I'll keep my eyes open for a two bladed prop for next year, the three bladed 12X8 seems to be a great fit but being I have so much extra range why drag the extra blade thru the water. I'd like a 12X9RH if any one has one laying around.
My little shop project below turn out pretty good, I'll post some pictures next time I row out.
So happy to be back in the water and looking forward to a great season.
Mike
C227

[Commander227]

Wow, the relentless march of time. 4 years since my last post.
Life keeps ticking along. Kids out of college and out in the world, we sold the house in our little lakeside community we raised them in and moved 6 miles from Lake Minnetonka. The Princess was moved to The Wayzata Yacht Club when we lost our city buoy. We now have to get on a bike or car to get to the boat. A rude awakening.
I have raced in the Ensign fleet at WYC my entire life but the last two years I was racing The Princess in the PHRF fleet. To be somewhat competitive we had to had to undue a lot of the niceties that made The Princess The Princess. My wife hated it and I missed one design racing. This year I’ll be crewing for a newer member in the Ensign fleet and we will be sharing The Princess with an old neighbor so she is back on her old mooring ball in Excelsior. Racing gizmos and sails removed and back in cruising mode.
Nothing else new with The Princess really. Showing the strain of being well used and time since refit. Bow scuffed and dinged from the mooring ball, nonskid chipped and peeling in a few spots, lines faded and stained. Etc.
looking forward to another season with the old girl.
Mike
C227

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike! Welcome back! Nice picture there. When you get around to it, I'd be curious to see pix of your finished interior project.

[ebb]

Ditto on that! And just arrived back myself, thanks Bill.
Just plain news is more important than ever these days.
Pictures too!

[Commander227]

Big move for The Princess this year, back to the Great Lakes. Only this time to the greatest of the Great Lakes. Superior, Gitchi Gummi, the salt less sea. 1/10 of the fresh water on the entire planet is here in here in this, the world largest lake. She’s in the Duluth harbor at a great full service marina called Barkers Island. We’re super excited!

[ebb]

The Princess spiffed up in her cloud white bottom and black dress.

She seems to have a double squinty smile anticipating the move

to the world's largest fresh water inland sea. Dressed to the nines.


Here's a raised toast with a cup of morning macha from Litlgull

Smooth sailing in the bright future ahead!