The oft discussed outboard extra ballast revealed

[Mike Goodwin]

Here is a shot of the 2 pigs of lead from the deep sump , the one to the right would be furthest aft in the bilge .
These are reputed to be in all outboard models . It looks like there was a steel lifting eye in each one , long coroded away in mine .
These suckers are heavy , had to use main halyard to get to cockpit .
I'm cutting them in half with a sawsall and will either remove or use for trimming .

Mike G

[Brent]

Thanks Mike! Now I know what to look for.

[Bill]

Got $20 for mine at a scrap dealer :p

[S.Airing]

Bill,you took out your 200 lb. weights and race against boats with 325lb. Atomic 4s,thats real fair.

[Bill]

No one in his / her right mind races an inboard in this class, so no problem. All the YRA boats have removed the lead.

[c_amos]

Mike,

I know this is an old thread, but maybe you can help me with a mystery.

My boat, has no deep sump. It has been glassed in.

I will post pictures of this, it has taken me a little bit to come to terms with this so please bear with me.

When I first realized that this was the case, I feared I was going to be spending time chipping concrete like Bill Hoover did on #350. :eek:

Careful examination of my waterline, and comparison with others on the site have lead me to believe that there is nothing down there to fear.

My bilge just does not get any deeper then it is under the aft floorboard (about midships). That is where my bilge pump sits, and seems to be the lowest point.

I can see the lead pigs that sit forward of this access, but none that would be aft of it.

I wonder if some DPO (Dear Prior Owner in this case) has made #226 more secure by glassing the pigs into the sump>?

[ebb]

If I might venture a guess:
Hopefully DFO laid some frp over the lead he put in there to make it more convenient to pump water out from that low point in the boat.

If that is the case, and the alteration was not serious - like filling the spaces around the lead with concrete or god forbid plastic or 5200 - then removal could be relatively direct.

Mike could advise you on this.

If I was faced with the problem, I would think how to break the encapsulating skin. Couldn't work with a chisel down in the sump. I might get an old stanley chisel, take the handle off and weld a stout rod to it, something you can cut to shorten if too long to hammer. Start chiseling at the corners, it could be a piece of cake.

To chisel frp you need a very sharp edge. You grind a sharp rough edge on a wheel as often as it dulls, no need to dress the edge. A 1" chisel might be the handiest. You've got to find out what is in the space between the lead and the hull! Hopefully it's water.

After you've chiseled the skin away:
To get the lead out that has had the rings cut off, you might get the purchase you need to lift them by drilling a hole or two in the lead of the correct size to turn in a lag bolt or two. Or a large eye bolt. And MIKE them out of that sump!

(It IS possible to get a small rightangle grinder down in there with a flat cutting disk or a small 40 grit wheel made of pieces. These make short work of frp but shoots out glass and dust into every corner of you and the boat. Getting your face and neck and lungs down into that would be daunting! Maybe later after the lead is out you would use the tool to clean up the hull, but the mess it makes can be depressing. So you think you'll find all the glass dust?)


If the lead is somehow PERMANENTLY glued in, and all avenues of removal have been explored, there is one extreme method which may turn out to be fairly simple. That is to cut it out from the side!!! :(

[Mike Goodwin]

Amos,

Do you have the access hatch under the steps/sink?

The lead is about 2' down from there , so maybe a foot or 10" below the aft end of the bilge as you describe it . I can get you a measurement from a known point to where the drop should be
I have my sump back there and down there and it takes a hell of a lot of water to fill it up.

Commander 105 has be filled and/or glassed over too .

I have a monel water tank under the floor boards and dont want bilge water near it if I can help it .

[c_amos]

Mike,

When I look into that access hatch, the small square one just aft of the sink, I see a fiberglass blige.

The bottom of mine is about 6-8" deep, and I thought that was all that there was. Looking at other boats, I learned I was really supposed to have
the couple feet deep sump you speak of.

My boat does not have that sump.

At first I panicked, I flashed to visions of #350, and the concrete :eek:

But then I got to thinking about having read this thread of yours, and the lead you removed.

See, I have got two lead pigs, secured by boards under the sole. I thought those were all there were.

Now, that you have confirmed that you took these two larger lead blocks out of that sump, I think I understand what was done.

I think that some where in #226's past (it has lived there in Hampton Roads with you it's whole life until now) someone glassed the lead into the sump secure them, and...... I don't know, maybe prevent them from breaking loose in a roll over???

I don't know yet what I am going to do about this, (if anything). The deep sump would be nice to have should I mount a tank below the sole as you have.

Sure wish I knew more about how the job was done, or even exactly why.

[Mike Goodwin]

Did you get 226 up in Hampton or York River Yacht Haven?
Who was the former owners?

[c_amos]

Herb lived in Hayes, VA just across the James River from Yorktown.

He bought the boat from a man who (if I understand correctly) bought the boat from a charity (sea scouts?).

The boats linage appears to be;

Me

Herb Tucker: Great guy. Replaced the combing boards, and some of the deck core. Painted the topsides and addressed the maintenance issues identified as problem areas in the manual. He also added some nice upgrades like the boards that span the center of the cabin and turn it into a large bunk.

Unknown short-term investor: sold boat to Herb, believed to have bought boat from a charity auction and painted cabin and deck in an attempt to 'spruce it up'. This person does not appear to have owned the boat for long.

Original owner: Herb met this man, and spoke to him about the boat. He apparently was a member of a local Yacht club and raced the boat in regattas. There might have been a few Ariel’s purchased at around the same time, and I do not know if they would have been out of Hampton or the other side of the bridge.

I would place my bet on this owner as the one who had done this modification, or had it done. The condition of the boat shows it was well maintained, and the work was well done (much more consistent with the earlier malignance then with that of "Unknown short-term investor".

I know Herb was moving shortly after he sold me the boat, but I will try to contact him to get more information.

[commanderpete]

I gotta ask--why take them out?

I remember seeing a rusty ring down in my bilge, glass all under it. Must be them pigs.

Who are they hurtin?

[Bill]

The "rusty rings" in your bilge are connected to the boat's "external ballast" in the keel. The "pigs" are/were loose blocks of lead just sitting in the bilge. About 200 lbs worth to compensate for the missing Atomic-4. If you have an inboard engine, no pigs. Oink, oink. :)

Removing the pigs makes the boat more "lively," which might not be comfortable for some. But, if you race . . . :D

[Mike Goodwin]

Ok, that was Herb's boat, I remember it well, was wondering what ever became of it.
Good boat, It was around here forever and I think sailed out of Fishing Bay YC .
where you keeping her ?
Beaufort?

[c_amos]

Mike,

Yes, it was Herb's boat. I bought her and brought her down here to the New River (Jacksonville) NC. Good sailing here on the river, Hang a right on the ICW and you are out Topsail inlet, or a left gets you to Beaufort.

They are supposed to dredge the New River inlet again here in a couple months, (I ran it once, last fall...... :eek: I would not recommend it).

Herb was a good steward of 226, I hope the same may be true of me. I have re-tabbed the hull-to-deck joint around the transom, re-built the stbd corner that had been formed out of bondo (?) at some point, and am working my way forward up the decks grinding the gelcoat crazing and building epoxy as I go.

My intent is to do the jobs, whatever I work on, to be able to meet a couple standards;

Can I honestly say this is the right way to do this?

Can I feel comfortable taking this off shore?

Now, I know those are fairly subjective standards. I also know that 5 Sailors might have 10 answers on some issues. I am for the counsel I receive here.


Commander Pete said;

I gotta ask--why take them out?

I remember seeing a rusty ring down in my bilge, glass all under it. Must be them pigs.

Who are they hurtin?

I am inclined to agree. I find de-pigged boats to be a bit tender, I rather like the stability of my boat. Ole Carl decided them pigs needed to be there, who am I to argue? No, the inquiry on my part is more about understanding what may be under that glass, and what all is SUPPOSED to be down there. Thanks to the input I have gotten, it is more clear now.



Bill said;

Removing the pigs makes the boat more "lively," which might not be comfortable for some. But, if you race . . . :D

And I do. #226 finished 8th of 16 in our Fall series regatta, with a little help from PHRF, and a healthy field of DNF's :eek: (I may not be the fastest, but I can get off the bottom faster then much of the others :D ). Pretty good for the ole girl when you figure she had the disadvantage of bagged 40 year old sails and a sub par skipper.

I wonder though, would not removing the pigs shorten the LWL ? :confused:

[Dan Maliszewski]

I guess #199 Ariel has the same arrangement as Capt. Amos, 'cause it has a smoothly sloping shallow bilge floor with the deepest part sort of under the sink, about 12-14 inches. There is a large oblong lead block under the soleplate near a rusty eye protruding from the bilge. It does not look too difficult to remove, but if it is a "counterbalance" for the outboard weight near the stern, would not removing it make the hull drag it's tail?

Lively is probably good, esp. for racing, but I would still like to ride on it's lines too.

Decisions, decisions......

[c_amos]

So Dan,

#199 does not have a deep sump under the square access below the sink?

I wonder if the drunk Portuguese at might have gotten carried away with the resin a time or few?

Maybe like somewhere from 199 - 226 or so..... decided to glass the pigs in the deep sump?

[Bill]

The boat heals, the water line grows . . . get the weight out if you race.

[Bill]

Dan wrote: ". . if it is a "counterbalance" for the outboard weight . . " No, it was added to compensate for the weight of the missing Atomic-4 to meet an old racing rule and supposedly to equalize the ob with the inboard models.

[c_amos]

Here is the 'main' bilge access. It is the one just forward of the sink.

As you can see in the picture, there is about 12" here. Probably the same as most others. The difference is that this is about the deepest point in my bilge.

[c_amos]

Nothing of much to see forward, just the other little piggie hiding there.

(sorry about the mess, the cabin is trashed as my poor boat is more of a hazmat locker/workshop at the moment.) :rolleyes:

[c_amos]

The real point of interest on this tour is the third picture.

THis is the aft most bilge access (under the sink).

The upward slope (to the left in the picture) is going aft, it tapers down forward to the bilge pump (forward, or to the right in the picture).

THere is no 'deep sump' on Faith, and the more I look at the glass down there, the less I believe there may have ever been one. :confused:

[epiphany]

Hmmm... Well, looking at your pics, if it was a post-factory sump fill in, whoever did it took great pains to do a nice job. What is the black spot which appears in the upper left part of the picture above? Any plans to do a core sample?

Maybe Al Capone is in there? Or Blackbeards lost treasure? :) Does it sound solid when you tap on it? What about from the outside?

[Mike Goodwin]

Nothing of much to see forward, just the other little piggie hiding there.

(sorry about the mess, the cabin is trashed as my poor boat is more of a hazmat locker/workshop at the moment.) :rolleyes:
That block of lead in Post #21 is not 'stock' !

[Tony G]

The glass work in 113's bilge never looked that good! I've got heavy (20 some oz.) roving as a finish surface down there. Yours looks like 5-6oz. cloth.

Is your little piggy up front tapered top to bottom? It looks alot like mine with a heavier eye and laid on it's side.

[Dan Maliszewski]

It took me a while to get around to it, but I finally decided to remove that tapered block of lead sitting on it's side in my bilge, the one with the small rusted eye bolt on it's side. All this time I thought it was securely glassed or epoxied to the bilge floor, but hel no it was just sitting there up against that rusty eye that goes who knows where. I just goosed it around with a crowbar till I could latch onto it with the main halyard and winch it out and onto the pier. I did not risk the rusty eye but rigged a line around it securely. Anyway I got about four hernias humping that lump down the dock and up to my truck. Good thing my bride was there to help me. And no wonder it never moved in the bilge - that little block must be 200 lbs. if it's an ounce.

To celebrate, we took the boat out under motor, and just like Bill predicted, removing that block livened up our baby noticably, and we found it very sensitive to weight shifts fore and aft, and probably to rail meat as well. We are racing the Adele M like madmen this season, and we are currently in second place in the Wednesday night series, Division B, which has raised more than a few eyebrows around the clubhouse. They are calling our boat a 41 year old strumpet. Imagine. Tomorrow we race again, and will see how the leadless hull performs.

ps: Thanks Bill for the racing tips. Ariels--OOH-Rah!

[Dan Maliszewski]

Here is a shot of the little bugger. It has an interesting three taper shape, almost like it could be lowered into the keel as ballast. My keel under the soleplate is shallow and smooth like Capt. Amos' boat, and I neither know nor care what is underneath. This little guy was laying on his side under the rear hatch.

It seems strange to say that a 5500 lb. boat acts twitchy without that lead, but it really does.

[ebb]

338's lead pig that came with the boat IS exactly like that one.
It fits in the bilge (as 338 knows it) right at the end of the encapsulated keel.
It fits right where you should have the bilge pump.


The encapsulated keel does end, tho in 338 the encapsulating frp did not cover the end of the lead very well. This was a good thing because it allowed the keel to drain most of the time into the 'sump'.

I think a a sump is necessary for this reason and to have a LOWEST point for the bilge pump hose. I would dig out whatever is in there to have the benefit a sump gives you and your boat. Which is to keep the boat and the laminate as dry as possible.

Otherwise you will aways have a sodden bilge and a keel cavity with 5 to 6 gallons of water in it. :(

[SkipperJer]

OK, here's a rookie, gentleman day-sailor question. I've found that it is great fun to bury the rail in a big breeze but my GPS indicates more leeway, less getting to where I'm going and more weather helm which I perceive as dragging the rudder. That's a long way of saying I think its slower. If I sail it standing up more it seems faster though less dramatic. Therefore, doesn't all that weight help?

Also, I seem to have one of the few Commanders where the ballast has not been glassed in and the lift-rings are intact. Guess I got lucky.

[Bill]

Also, I seem to have one of the few Commanders where the ballast has not been glassed in and the lift-rings are intact. Guess I got lucky.

The lift rings were left in on all the boats. If gone, a PO has removed them. :)

PS - Sail trim will compensate for missing ballast in terms of keeping the boat upright. Lighter is faster, but not necessarily as comfortable. If you race, ditch the loose pigs. If not, leave them there to keep the family happy. #76 has extra lead (160 lbs?) glassed in just aft of the head. It keeps the bow down, but she's not quite as fast as the other racing fleet Ariels. Not a big problem, however, racing PHRF.

[Dan Maliszewski]

I, too, have added about 90 Lbs. of lead weights down in the lowest part of the anchor chain locker, to keep the tail from dragging when we have sailing guests astern. It also keeps the nose down in a chop, but it probably adds to the hobbyhorse action, being closer to the end of the hull. A trade off, but not a huge problem. BTW, we finished fifth of seven, good enough to maintain our second place in the standings. It was a four mile race with three knots of shifty wind, not an Ariel's best day, but fine for the B division winner, a Hobie 33.

[eric (deceased)]

the eyes were not eroded so I was able to lift them both out.I believe I gave them to a boat builder for ballast.the lost weight was more than compensated for with the inclusion of all the canned goods water fuel etc

[ebb]

Hey Dan,
I've read that in small boats especially that weight concentrated in the middle will CAUSE the boat to hobbyhorse.

With 338's remake, adding all the stuff and contemplating adding more stuff - my only reasoning has been to add weight thruout the length of the hull.

Anybody experimenting with this? I'd like to know!
EG, with 3 in the cockpit, would it make sense to

move weight below

toward the bow to create more punch and less lift?


If this reasoning is correct,
do you regatta racers do this?

Wouldn't it help to keep the waterline longer
for the continuous speed you must have?
(less horsing around)

The bow of the A/C is really the only location
you have to increase waterline length. Yes?

[tha3rdman]

Old thread I know, I was looking up info on weather helm, and got side tracked. The bilge on 97 looks identical to the pictures above, A nice glassed over shallow bilge, no deep sump. She was never gutted though theres seems to be a fair ammount of "aftermarket" glass work, most notable around the deck/hull joint.

So does the above boat have a glassed in blige, like 97, maybe because the are both inboard hulls? or did someone glass in 97's blige?

[Bill]

So does the above boat have a glassed in blige, like 97, maybe because the are both inboard hulls? or did someone glass in 97's blige?

The bilge on A-76 was glassed, but not sealed. Epoxied it to keep bilge water from entering the keel area. Not sure, but believe the bilge came that way from the factory. With high hull numbers, Pearson was cutting corners and did not glass the bilge.

[eric (deceased)]

I took those lead pigs outta mine too....to allow for more beef stew. :DI already said that ---however as the provisions were used(I wonder where those tin cans are now) the boat would inevitably sit higher.BF'nD

[mbd]

A picture of my lead pig. Note: Ariel 414 is an inboard model. Guess someone thought 200# or so of engine just wasn't enough ballast... It'd be nice to get it out of there someday.

[eric (deceased)]

Ya kno' its like I sez before----the lead pigs were removed to allow for more provisions.If ya' read the part about how I removed the v-berth cushions to allow formore storage space-----well picture this----8 five gallon sparkletts bottles in the v berth----4 each aligned amidships on eachside.now --as the water was used -----what to do with the empties???? hmmmmm----lesseeeee-----the vp-os plotting sheets-----with a felt tipped indelible marker(aka:sharpies)---I wrote notes on these sheets-who what where when----put them in the bottles----secured the plastic top reall good with sealant and duct tape-----man nowyaz" gotta real *****in message in a bottle----note -----this was done during the way back---outhere in nowheresville---1n 1985.where dooyaz' tink dey b' now?????????????/------totally encrusted with marine sea growth------turned crazed yellow by the sun----- probably half submerged by the shear weight of the encrusted barnacles-----or washed up on some tropical atoll------where my mind is when I think about it

[Commander 147]

I recently received the Ariel/Commander owners manual and maintenance guide and while reading it I learned something I did not previously know. It states that the ballast on the Commander inboard model is 2,500 lbs. lead casting set inside the keel and fiberglassed in place. But for the outboard model (which I believe is the way most of the Commanders were sold) there was an extra 500 lbs. lead casting which is portable and fits in the bottom of the keel.

My question is this. If I repower an outboard model with an inboard can the extra 500lbs. be removed without major surgery?

[c_amos]

Yes,

Removal of the lead 'pigs' is generally not a problem. While Faith has the unusual 'inished' bilge, her extra ballast was easily removed (I wish I had done it sooner).

Most Ariel / Commanders have the 'deep bilge' and the lead pigs are sitting down at the bottom of the bilge. Just a little bit of heave ho and out they go. :)

You should find bunches of discussion on it, with pictures if you search on extra ballast.

On edit;

Here is one to get you started; http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=177&highlight=extra+ballast

[Commander 147]

I tried a couple of searches before I asked the question but did not apparently hit on the right key words for the search.

That makes me feel better about my future plans.

[Commander227]

After reading the recent posts on this subject I ran out and looked under The Princess's skirts and found this!!!!!
It measures 32" long, 10.5 " wide (12" forward & 9" aft) and 5" deep. Thats 1680 Cubic inches of lead!!! One cubic foot of lead(1728 CI) weighs 708 lbs, so even with the side relief cut and the triangle cut out of the bottom for water passage it's got to be at least 500 lbs. It has 2 lifting rings, one fore and one aft and is set in with glass tape between the two sole hatches. 12" wide and the sole hatch measures 11.5", it'll be a trick getting it out.
I had looked at and wondered about it with mild curiosity, but did not know that extra ballast was added to some boats. The boat is so stiff I'm sure I won't miss it if I can Rubik's cube it out. I guess it would be worth tearing up the sole if I have to.

[Tony G]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!:D

Barring the 'concrete' bilge posted a few years back, I do believe this is the largest pig discovered in our collective bilges yet. No lipstick needed-she's a natural beauty.

Be careful when you peel up that sole. I found a little rot on the main bulkhead and look at what that lead to... Seriously though, the 3/4" sub-sole extentds under the forward riser by the main bulkhead and under the aft riser in the galley area on the Ariels. I don't know how those areas differ on the Commanders but if it is more similar that dislike removal will require a little finess, glass grinding and hidden screw removal. Nothing insurmountable.

[SkipperJer]

I don't have pictures but I have the same block with lifting rings in my Commander. I've noted as have some of the local Ariel owners that my boat seems to sail stiffer in a breeze. I may pay a price in light winds but get it back when its blowing. I also put the outboard down in the cabin for racing and have moved the battery to dead center under the bridge deck.

[Tony G]

So I must be hullcentric!?! Somehow I missed that fact that there seems to be two different types of pigs in the bilge. The fact that Commanders appear to have the single big pig versus the more common two pigged Ariel find leads me to believe that I have been reading with prejudice:eek:

Public humiliation...

[SkipperJer]

The difference comes from the fact that the compensation ballast in the Commander is making up for the lack of an inboard motor and the weight of the extended cabin of the Ariel. Most PHRF systems give a different rating to each boat indicating that their weight (when sailed with the designed weight installed) isn't quite the same even with the installed lead. The somewhat old information in the chart on the Pearson Information page notes this:

http://www.pearsoninfo.net/info/phrf.htm

The Ariel scores an average PHRF of 255.5 and the Commander 250.5. I know that current numbers used by local sailing clubs on the Chesapeake are 252 for the Commander and 257 for the Ariel.

Sadly, nobody registered an Ariel or a Commander in the Chesapeake Bay Yacht Racing Association in 2008 (CBYRA runs the major races on the bay). A number of them ran in Wednesday night local races in smaller clubs. I intend to put my Commander out there in 09 in the non-spinnaker class. I don't expect to win but I'm looking forward to a number of good days on the water with some friends.

[ebb]

For the record,
A-338 came with a form-fitted 120# pig with an iron ring in it exactly like the rings I cutoff that were sticking out of the 'encapsulated' ballast. It is shaped like Mike's (post 37) to fit right behind the end of the glassed-in ballast in the bilge.

Somebody must have really hated this little piggy because there are a bunch of hammer marks embedded in the S.O.B. top!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
The pig is 9" long - 7" tall - and 6" wide at the wide end.
Bathroom scale weight - 120#
A cubic foot of lead comes in at 708#
A cubic inch at .40969# at room temp.
Getting an estimate of the weight of the added pigs doesn't help with the curve of the bilge, does it? But maybe you could ballpark a guesstimate by averaging the angle at 45 degrees.....?

[commanderpete]

Wonder what I have under there.

Its all glassed over and looks like a shallower bilge than 227

This picture was taken from underneath the stern-most floorboard looking forward

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3113&stc=1&d=1142982282

[Commander227]

I think you have the same pig, perhaps a PO brought the rest of the bilge up to the level of the top of the pig. The lift ring looks the same as on 227.

[bill@ariel231]

that's curious.. A-231's bilge looks equally shallow, but my lift rings are on the centerline. it would be interesting to get some measurements from the bilge to the floorboards on a couple boats to see how similar/different they are in profile.

it might take an xray or a thermal imager to know what is really down there without breaking out a saw.:rolleyes:

[SkipperJer]

sure looks like what I have in Commander 270. Mine has an extra layer of glass laid over it and is nicely painted by previous owner.

[Bill]

that's curious.. A-231's bilge looks equally shallow, but my lift rings are on the centerline.

Those rings are likely attached to the main external ballast located in the keel.

[Rico]

C-227 I have the exact same lead Pig. My bilge is fully glassed and is fairly shallow - and dry...

I like the stiffness of the boat and had not considedred taking it out...

[Commander227]

I like the stiffness of the boat and had not considedred taking it out...

My wife is also a fan of a stiff boat, as would I be if I was sailing in the conditions you've been sailing in for the last few weeks, But 227 is doomed to a fate of sailing on an inland lake. Also, with my converting to an electric inboard, If I'm going to have an extra 500 lbs of lead ballast on board I'd like it to be swimming in acid and doubling as fuel.

[Commander227]

(Commander Compensator removal)
I know it wasn't hurting anybody... but dang it irked me knowing it was down there on those days with drifting conditions. On heavy days I can always throw in a reef.
It had to go!!
The process;
First I cut the fiberglass tape holding it in place.
Being the compensator was wider than the hatches and 500lbs pretty unmanageable I cut it in half lengthwise with a saws-all. The notch down the middle made it pretty easy, although I had to lift and pry it back and forth to finish the cut between the hatches.
To get the halves out I had to slide them back to the deeper section of the bilge and lift the front of the pig out of the aft hatch. I used a stout piece of steel square stock accross the companionway and my vang. I ended up having to throw in a cascade to get 8:1 as I could not get it to budge with 4:1.
Scrap lead is at $.42/lbs, so now I'm looking for some $215 shiny thing to bolt on the princess.

[Commander 147]

My electric drive will have 500 lbs of batteries and getting that 500 lbs out would bring me back to even. I had wondered how to cut it and now I guess I have me answer. Thanks for posting that. I'm especially happy to know it will come out without cutting up the floor.

[Tony G]

Mike, you are a wild man. I'd like to spend a spell in your shop. There always seems to be something good going on there.

[Triton106]

I have been very curious about the extra ballast on Ariels/Commanders. Too bad C-227 is not near the SF Bay Area. I have a Triton and have been contemplating ADDING ballast (about +/- 300 lbs). Does anyone in the SF Bay Area have extra-ballast that want to sell? I am willing to pay more than what the recycling centers will pay.;)

Ray
Blossom - Triton 106
Alameda, California

[Rico]

Ray -
Most recycling centers will be happy to sell you lead. It is usually in bins and you can pick & choose the pieces you want. It won't take many to get 300 lbs.
I have not bought lead (Mostly Al), but I have noticed that lead is commonly available in very nice uniform shapes of all kinds - ideal for boat ballast.

[ebb]

I have a number of reclaimed/recycled lead pigs.
They are more or less 34" long
5.5" wide
and 2" deep.
Semi-circular in section. The lead was cast into split halves of iron pipe from lead-clad wire along the Coast Hiway. Same lead used in the ballast of the Elizabeth Muir.
Approximately 135# each.

[Triton106]

Thanks Rico, Ebb, for your helpful responses.

Ebb, I will send you a PM. What is Elizabeth Muir, another boat of yours?

[Commander227]

I have had the opportunity to sail The Princess a couple of times now after the compensator lead's removal.
The boat accelerates noticeably better in puffs & she is much more tender between 0 - 25 degrees of heel but stiffens right up like she always has when the rubrail starts to get wet.
Both times I have been out Its been blowing around 10mph and have been under full main and 150% genoa.
I'll report in next time I sail her in the 15-20 range.

[ebb]

Built through out the '80s at Ed Letter's yard in Bolinas. Launched 1991 in Sausalito. An Eldridge-McInnis knockabout Schooner of 48'.
WoodenBoat called it a masterpiece (an understatement) and in '92 put it on their cover.
It was built under the direction of master shipwright John Linderman for and with Babe Lamerdine, a woodcarver and master craftman himself. Remember it was lofted vertically outside under the shed Ed Letter built.
Many local craftsmen contributed to its building, from the laying of its keel, casting its ballast, steaming and fitting of its ribs, carvel planking... to its rudder, cabin and spars.
Rigged by Kit Africa.

In the decade of weekends it took, hundreds of visitors showed up, including Babe's old sailing buddies, and clients.
He obviously was special to a whole lot of people. I believe that all the help was volunteered and all of it seemed to be aimed at making sure Babe finally got the boat he had always dreamed of.

google> Cruising Sailor . View topic - ELIZABETH MUIR 48 foot wood...

[Triton106]

Thanks Ebb. She is stunning.

[kendall]

I have a number of reclaimed/recycled lead pigs.
They are more or less 34" long
5.5" wide
and 2" deep.
Semi-circular in section. The lead was cast into split halves of iron pipe from lead-clad wire along the Coast Hiway. Same lead used in the ballast of the Elizabeth Muir.
Approximately 135# each.

Quick and easy molds for those interested in making their own is to weld end plates to angle iron,(they also form the legs) and use them as the molds. Advantage is that you get triangular shaped pigs, which stack together more densely so they take up less space for the same weight.

I don't have a problem with heeling, but my wife and some regular guests don't care for it, so I plan to keep the original pigs aboard, along with a few trim pieces.

Ken.

[Commander227]

I have now sailed The Princess in the 15 - 20 wind range and she is a changed girl. She is not the stiff old girl she was and is definitely over powered with the 150% in that range. I don't think I would recommend pulling out the compensator ballast to you San Francisco Bay fellas or others on big water and in big wind. I'm still deciding if I like the change and will wait to add some weight back in with another battery bank until I settle on a new sail plan.

[Commander 147]

Mike

Thank you very much for letting us know that. As you know I was contemplating going with the LFP batteries that would have only weighed about 200 lbs but I have made a decision to go back to my original plan for the Odyssey PC1800 battery for two reasons. One I will get significantly more range on a charge for a significantly lower cost and two, the weight of the PC1800 battery bank will be equal to the 500 lb added ballast pig so when I remove it I will be back to where I started with total weight. The only differance will be that the weight will be a little higher in the hull.

[Bisquit]

I removed the corrector weight today. Not too difficult although I was worried the lag eye I installed to lift it would pull out. As soon as I got the piece upright I tied a couple of safety lines around it and pulled it out of the boat. We'll see how the boat behaves without the additional ballast. I opened up the floorboard to make the removal easier.

10103

10104

[prooftheorist]

My Ariel had the atomic 4 removed, and has an outboard in the well. The prop shaft is still there and can spin....I have not removed it. Perhaps adding pigs would help her be less tender? Also, does anyone else have a pig in the bow? One of the previous owners put a large one in the bow and encapsulated it with foam. Perhaps to offset the weight of the outboard, but is seems to me this would increase the hobby horse effect, and she has it for sure.

Any ideas?

I do not have the budget to re power her with an inboard....and I find the 8 HP to still not be enough when fighting a current, and the 6 HP tohatsu sail pro was dangerously underpowered in my opinion....nowhere near hull speed.

Anyone try to fit a 9.9 high thrust?

Thanks!