deck scuppers

[Tony G]

Somewhere along the line one of the previous owners intalled deck scuppers. At least I believe one of the POs did it because I've never seen nor read anything about them on any other Ariels. I like the idea of ridding the decks of trapped water but I loath the big, ugly water stain on the topsides. Placement is questioable too. I have leveled the boat by the boot stripe and when it rains(or worse yet snow melts) water pools aft of the scuppers! If you notice they located them forward enough to go through the cored section of the side decks. Everything seems solid there but locating them aft alittle further would have made more sense to me. When I look at this pic I see three things I'd like to change. We're open to ideas and criticism(gulp)-Tony G.

[Tony G]

Hold it! That's the wrong picture bvut I can still find three things I'd like to change. Let's try it again.

[Tony G]

that's the toe biter! Here's the inside(I know you're on the edge of your seat by now).

[Bill]

I agree, that is about the ugliest scupper installation I've seen:)

On higher numbered boats, the factory appears to have moulded in deck scuppers aft of the cabin trunk. The outlet is at the waterline. An earlier owner added scuppers to #76 and used flat faced bronze through hulls at the deck and rounded through hulls at the water line. Hole diameter could have been larger, but is ok.

Also, in the case of #76, the scuppers were placed ahead of the boat's low point where the water collects. I'm sure it was the low point at one time:p Just another reason to keep the weight down in the after most part of the boat.

[Mike Goodwin]

#45 has molded in scuppers that are original, and are located fairly well aft, lining up with the mid point of the cockpit locker lids .
Also I have two deck drains at the transom corners that drain into the outboard well .

[Tony G]

Yeah, without a doubt I'm with Bill, I do have the ugliest scupper intallation. I had planned on removing the original through hulls for the head which would include some grinding and laminating and filling and fairing and fairing and fairing. So maybe that would be an opportune time to move those deck scuppers. I really wanted keep it( the work) below the waterline but I guess I'll just have to do better work topsides.

[Janice Collins]

#91 has no deck scuppers.

[Mike Goodwin]

Here is what looks like a factory install ,

[Mike Goodwin]

And here is the one in the deck corner ,

[Tony G]

Mike,
You've lost me on the second pic. Is that your lazerette hatch in the fore. Maybe the starboard corner?

[Mike Goodwin]

Port corner of stern, stainless plate is new chain plate for split backstay , there is an identical drain in the STBD corner .

[Bill]

Mike, I wonder if that part of the boat's stern was re built (maybe when the split backstay was installed?). Most of the boats have a break in the toe rail at each corner to allow for water egress.

[Brent]

#66 has no such breaks in the toerail aft. The only place for water egress is at the scuppers (about 1/3 of the way along the cockpit, back from the cabin trunk just inside the toerails).

[Mike Goodwin]

Bill,
I split the backstay myself last summer , all the glass work in the lazarrette looks original ( except for a spot in the center of the transom where she got rammed ), I have been standing on my head in there several times in the past year .
The 2 drains above the transom drain into hoses that go to the outboard well .

[Janice Collins]

#91 has breaks in the toe rails at each corner of the stern for drainage.

[Janice Collins]

And the huge Yamaha hanging off the stern....

[Mike Goodwin]

Janice ,
there is a device that you attach to your outboard to give the leverage to tilt it up .
West marine may sell it or Defender , I will look thriugh my catalogues .

[S.Airing]

Janice,is that a solar panel across your stern rail?

[Janice Collins]

I ordered a motor tilter. It came but is too large for my outboard. It says its adjustable, it is after you have to drill your own holes. I just bought a drill today.. Its one of the first things I'll be drilling.

[Janice Collins]

yea, that's a solar panel.

[Mike Goodwin]

Here is a shot of the business part of the deck drain on Commander 105 ( shot is sideways, underside of deck is to your left ) , #45 is done very much the same .

[Tony G]

Mike
I could deal with that. 'Don't know why 113 was blessed with such butt-ugly work. It seems to me that an occational puddle of water on the side decks would be a small annoyance compared to four more holes in the hull and deck! Especially since the port scupper leaks and if you didin't happen to notice the photos I posted they're located far enough forward to involve the core. That wicked, wicked scupper! Anyways they gotta go. We'll move them aft to where the water actually sits and probably drain them into the cockpit drain below. We thought about draining them into the outboard well but I don't like the angle or the idea of that much hose running through the lockers. Something glassed to the inside of the hull would be nice. Thanks for posting the 'bussiness end', it's both eye candy and food for thought I assumed that everybody had hoses.

[noeta-112]

hope you don't mind Mike;)

[Bill]

Pearson opened the toe rail at the aft end to allow water to drain, but after which hull number is unclear. I'm guessing it was someplace between #50 and #70.

[Mike Goodwin]

Well I like that better , you think it's too late for a recall on the early boats ?

[Brent]

Must have been after #66; she still has the solid toe rail with the scuppers at mid-cockpit.

[Bill]

We're getting close:) We can now say that the change was made after #66 and by #74.

[ebb]

338 is open thru the taffrail also. But the end is partially raised with a wedge of what for all the world looks like gelcoat. Any water left on the deck puddles there at the end of the toe rail and of course eventually left a brown stain.

Do other Ariels have this added feature of not allowing the deck to drain fully even tho it is open all the way thru? Was the 'wedge added to prevent a drip stain from occuring on the transom?

I would like to remove the gelcoat wedge filler and fair the run right off the back of the boat. I was thinking that the removal would be easy and a little sharp lip could be epoxied in place to create a drip edge that wouldn't want to run down the transom. Any thoughts on this?



Another draining problem is the far corners of the cockpit seats where on 338 there is evidence of water collecting. Has anybody come up with a solution for this?

[I just had a minor inspiration in that I saw the fix for the aft corners of the seats. There are off the shelf grey tube electrical sweeps which with appropriate collars and strate bits could be led from a hole in the corner down along the lazarette bulkhead and thru the cockpit seat side with a hole like the lid drains that are already there. Boont Amber Ale, Anderson Valley] Anybody done anything like this or even found it necessary? I'm also not sure that PVC and epoxy like to get connected?

[Bill]

The open end is for draining while sailing, not while at the dock :) And, it is also the reason there are scuppers placed at what was (at one time) the low point along the rail. As the trim of the boat changes, so does the location of the low point. Usually, the low point moves aft as more weight collects in the stern third and the boat no longer rides on its design lines.

As for water on the cockpit seats, I use cushons. Bottom Siders are great and they give me the inch I need to see over the coachroof. :p

[ebb]

Thanks Bill. I can see now on the large copy of the boat lines right in front of me here on the wall that there is forsooth a perky rise to Ariel's butt. The deck certainly rises at the stern But what explains the apparant afterthought of that partial filler in the waterway? Is it just my 338? Why bother putting it there? Maybe Pearson goofed again on poor little 338?


I don't see what 338 has in your photo. I'm just curious. I'll leave it in until after inspection Monday. And I wonder if others have the same weirdness. My filler looks factory. I think it's toerail plaque.

[Tony G]

Okay, it's raining today so the end of winter must be getting closer. Thanks to Tim L. we've solved our scupper problem, it was so simple I'm embarassed I didn't think of it myself. Now what I'm looking for is general imput from all of you captains out there with factory installed scuppers. What is the measurment from the stern to the location of your scupper AND what is the measurement from the stern to where the water actually pools? General consensus will be where I'll cut the hole being I willn't (nice huh)float the boat before scupper installation takes place. Thanks in advance, Tony G

[ebb]

By way of an update on this (seemingly) strange filling between the ends of the 'taffrail' and the bitter end of the toe rails. The wedges were cracked on 338 -so I took umbrage (actually a stanley utility chisel) and removed the precious uglies while waiting this evening for the fairing to set on the topsides.

And I can report eggzactly why they were there. They were there to cover the crack because the deck molding wouldn't go over the stern in these two spots because, as you know, the deck is butt joined to the hull. Also, the s.s. trim piece that covers the join across the stern would have to be in 3 pieces to allow free exit for the water. So naturally Pearson put that gel coat riser in there - for crying out loud - to cover the crack, ease the trim piece, and create two nice little marina algae puddles to form while we are away to earn enough to buy a sponge and pay the berth fee.

I took the old #49 Nicholson file and sawed away at the rear end until it looked fair. Had to file down into the stern Water fall off no puddle. Then I bent down to deck level and eyeballed up the channel - and loe-and-behold saw that the whole DECK aft of the cockpit lazarette bulkhead drops out of FAIR, That is, mind you, while sighting up the waterways deck thru the newly 'lowered' channel.

Well, warn't no bloody surprise to me. I've noticed these last two years various bulges AND crookedness that are indicative of a lack of PATIENCE and IMPETUOUSNESS on the part of the assemblers at the Pearson Plant. For crying-out-loud you would think the deck would be fair. NOPE? NOPE!!!

I can see why GEOFF had to RAISE the starboard side of his stern! For crying out loud.

Well it ain't no big deal to add a patch of exmat up inside the tafrail along with the mat that originally glued the stern to the transom. That is, if you are one to take the wedgies out But if you are very creative you could clean out the stained fiberglass mat a bit (because water DID get in there, naturally!) plug the zit FROM THE TOP and fake the gell coat with epoxy goop and a bit of universal color! The trim piece will require a little work. Don't know if it is absolutely necessary to have the trim going across. Maybe round it some abd touch it up with the hull paint. And then you can just sit back and watch the water run off the STERN.

Fair waterways to ya, mate.

[pmorgan]

Hi. I haven't been a regular visitor so I've missed some of this discussion. I am redoing my decks on Ariel #278 and am now dealing with the aft corner toerail scuppers and wedges.

Do I understand all this correctly? The railing was changed (about #70) to allow the aft part of the deck to drain properly. Then the wedges were put in to block drainage from these scuppers so water draining out wouldn't leave drip stains on the transom. Thus leaving the original problem, standing water on the deck.

My boat has scuppers abeam the cockpit seat hatches and smaller scuppers several inches forward of the wedges. Do you think these are these factory installed? Someone posted a picture with scuppers (I think on a commander) but with a solid toerail. Do I have a hybrid? A slot in the toerail and aft scuppers.

Maybe I'll remove the wedges and leave the scuppers. Then there will be some water going out the scuppers and some out the toerail.

Anybody with any other thoughts?

Thanks

[ebb]

CLEAR THRU WATERWAYS

The extra scuppers drain into the lazarette? They were probably drilled there by a DFO.

As I suggest in the post just previous to yours, it is no big deal to take the wedges out that are between the taffrail and the end of the toerail. IMCO they were put there to get the stern s,s half round trim piece to cover the seam. Probably the wedgies were added after the half round by the factory to make the boat presentable.

A couple of taps and the stuff popped right out of 338. Then the scuppers were carved down to deck level. That turns out to be lower than the deck/hull seam. Then you just fill whatever hole you might uncover and touch up with deck paint. The seam is covered inside with mat. You may go thru it a little, but just fill it with a ready made epoxy, it is not a strengh issue.

The s.s half round can be easily shortened a bit and put right back. It'll look like factory, and is probably the way they should have done it in the first place. The remaining exposed seam at the end of the toerail can be cleaned out of any filler and filled as well. Smoothed. sanded and painted it'll look great.:cool:

[c_amos]

I was making a post on Sailfar.net about water collection, and included something I had noticed about the deck scuppers on the Ariel.


Carl Alberg was a genus. http://sailfar.net/forum/Smileys/default/grin.gif His design of my boat included a ‘water collection system’ which many are not aware of. You can simply plug the midships deck drains, and then the rain water will all run aft to the drains at the stern. These drains are conveniently plumbed to two length’s of flexible hose that are just the perfect length to run back into the cockpit through the cutout in the lazy-rat (outboard models) or just into the lazy-rat (inboard) to fill your Jugs. Now, I am not thinking this water would be best for drinking, cause even if you let it rain for a few minutes before you start to capture the run off you are still going to be taking the salty run off that has been washing down your boat….. but if it rains long enough, or you are in desperate need it would sure beat drinking sea water. This would be the ideal opportunity to capture water for general cooking and washing chores though.


Now, did he design it this way or did it just work out.... I'll give him the benifit of the doubt. http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/images/smilies/smile.gif

Link to thread on SailFar.net What to do about water? (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=102.new#new)

[bill@ariel231]

Ariel 231 has gone through the same issues covered above related to the fairing of the cut out in the toe rail at the transom and the high likelyhood of standing water on the deck aft. During the refit, we elected to add a pair of extra deck drains that run forward to join the cockpit drain system. My father in law had this same issue with his pearson triton. Our solution is shown below:

[grindel]

on the 70 the deck scuppers are at the same place but the output was under the water. before with the old and heavy inboard engine (220kg) and some aditionnal equipement my grandfather must make other at the back (the back of the boat was inserted). now (outboar engine 37kg )the boat was in its lines, the deck scuppers at the back are not necessary and i had removed it.

[Theis]

Anyone have this problem with what I assume was factory issue (#82)? This Ariel has a break between the taffrail rail and toe rail, but in the slot at the aftmost part of the break, at the edge of the transom, the slot where the water should flow our freely, curls up and blocks free egress of a portion of the captured water. Was this a manufacturing mistake, or do others have a similar curl?

[epiphany]

Peter -

I think that was/is supposed to act as a sort of a "dam" to encourage water to go down the small holes and into a water-gathering system in the lazarette, or maybe under the cockpit. This is what Craig was referring to.

At least that is my interpretation of what that "curl" is for... 8^)

[ebb]

The mini ramps also provides a back for the s.s. 1/2 round 'rubbing strake'. Or it did on 338.

Popped out the wedgies and faired the slot down to deck level with 1/2 round files - this takes it down further than the deck/hull seam. You'll be opening the seam when you do this.

The factory seam inside the laz is battered with poly and matt which you may expose. Just open and clean out the loose stuff there on top and fill with epoxy filler, file and fair, paint or gelcoat. Then cut the 1/2 round trim shorter to fit if necessary.

The only downside might be staining on the transom under the openings from water now able to run off the stern.

You can sorta see this lowering of the scuppers in the Gallery on pages 13 #166 and 14 #198.

[mbd]

I've found that "ramp" provides a means to propel the running water far away from the stern, so water staining is no issue...

Yes, a new boot stripe is in my future - after some other issues are addressed.

[ebb]

Nice boat there!
Boot stripe problem might be fixed by stationing someone of equal weight in the bow.

The little ramps in the scuppers have caused puddling in the deck aft of the thru-deck scupper next to the coamings.
If you keep the edge sharp there where water exits (when you take the wedges out) it is less likely to dribble down the transom. It's boats that sit around collecting dust that have a stain problem.

[mbd]

Here's a pic of what Ebb's talking about methinks - a shot of where the water exits at the stern...

[mbd]

As seen in post #41 above, my boat has no issues draining the water aft-wise from the decks, and the factory scuppers work fine (scupper to port of the cockpit below). After I remove the lead pig or whatever it is from bowels of my bilge (discussed in another thread), I'll see how the draining works this next season.

On a "fix one thing, break another" note, I do however need to add some cockpit drains to the aft end of the cockpit, so the water will drain there instead of pouring down my cockpit hatch. Turns out it's not so water-tight when submerged... :o

[ebb]

Hey Mike'
It is aft of that scupper hole that stains - when the wedges were still in - from water sitting on the deck occured on 338.
Water also collects and sits in the aft corners of the seats. 338 will have some small diameter pvc pipe epoxied in with the outlet thru the upright like the regular lid scupper holes.

bills231 thrudeck scupper fix is a real nice alternative! Post #36 Where does it exit the hull? Maybe the corner of the seat's drains could meet up with the deck drains if they all met up on the cockpit bulkhead. (?)

WAY LATER EDIT: Mike Goodwin mentions scuppers that exit into the motor well. Seat drain scupper in the aft outer corner of the seat could exit thru the bulkhead into the lazarette. Maybe directly thru, but more slick, thru a right angle pvc fitting. Don't know how difficult it would be to reach in thru the lids to work on the hole (probably not)... If you have a functioning OB motorwell, maybe a direct unobtrusive scupper hole into the laz is probably best for these seat drains.

No drains going outboard thru the hull can be hose or plain tube. Any drain going thru the hull MUST be glassed in place, thruout its length, or be so overbuilt as to be rediculous. Must be structural! Page 4 #47 in Ebb's Gallery, cockpit rear drains.
Especially true for drainways hidden from sight and above the waterline. (...Think I meant thru-deck scuppers opposite the coamings.)

LATER EDIT: When I made those three each thru the toerail scuppers opposite the coamings, I left them a bit higher than the deck so that they would not continually direct liquid out that obviously stains the topsides.
This may also be a problem for the open stern drains, that Pearson changed over to, that exit the deck by carving thru the stern toerail.
I talk about a built-up "wedge" of gelcoat found on A338 in years old posts here. Which may have been made for the halfround 'rubbing strake' to cross the stern deck seam without event - but also, as Mike says, the ramp helps to stop soiled water from constantly dribbling down the transom.

The best scuppers for 99% removal of cranky deck water are the thrudecks at the rail opposite the coamings,. Pearson built them in by glassing half tube to the hull inside. where they exit out the hull at the waterline. Can say paranoia drove me to beef up these two scupper drains with epoxy and X-matt. True conservative method probably would have dictated seacock valves as positive hole closers. This cannot be done without converting over to hose, and hidden hose here is a big liability, so the Pearson compromise is credible.

But Pearson also gave us for the cockpit: glassed-in fiberglass-tube drains. Without question here, on a well-found ship, there should be seacocks. TWO FEET of SEAWATER is constantly in the hose. Depending on hose, clamps, connections and luck, a constant threat to sinking at any moment.

[Bill]

Page 4 #47 in the Galery, cockpit rear drains.
Especially true for drainways hidden from sight and above the waterline.

What is the thread name?

[ebb]

Ebb's project

[mbd]

Thanks Ebb. I had a chance to revisit your voluminous and "quiet of late" thread. You do some fine work, sir.

[Madman]

My Commander 89 does not have breaks.