Chain Plates

[Ed Ekers]

Over the years we have had an on going issue with the chain plates and leaks into the cabin area. If any of you had similar problems have you come up with your best solution?

I would appreciate any advise anyone might be able to offer……..

Thanks …. Ed

[ebb]

Hi Ed,
Do you plan to remove the chainplates for a fix?
How is the deck around the plates? Any soft spots?
That will influence a solution.

I was horrified at how short the ones on 338 were. The third bolt hole on the plates went through the top of the plywood close to the roof. I found rot behind the plates and on top of the fore and aft plywood 'bulkheads'.

So it depends on what you find and what you decide to do. Tearing it apart may be too radical for you. I doubled the chainplate bulkheads and glassed them together and tabbed them to the hull.
I have since decided to put the chainplates on the outside of the hull thinking that leaks from there would be easier to control. From pix on our forum here it looks like a number of skippers have done this - latest being Adam's 'CHE'.

It may be easier to move the plates outside then mess around with the interior. Maybe Adam has input on this.

If you get the chainplates out, even tho the short ones have been there since day one, I would go with longer ones. More bolts will result in less movement of the plates where they come thru the deck. On 338, with the top bolt not doing anything, the plates were each held on with but two bolts!

When I was still going with through-deck plates. and the plates were removed, I took a holesaw (forget the diameter just now - maybe 2 1/2" or 3"?) and drilled the top out where each chainplate had been down to the inner skin of the balsa fiberglass composite. I aimed at the center of the slot for positioning. I did NOT drill through! I carefully pried the 'lid' off and cleaned the balsa out and off the disk. I did find some deterioration. Then dug out balsa from under the edge of the circles, refilled the hole with epoxy/fumed silica/chopped strand mix on top of a wet priming, and put the lid back on level with the deck.
I was careful to have each circle marked to go back into its own place, you can then drill down with appropriate small bits and locate the bulkhead again using the now filled 'old' slots for location. And open the slots for reinserting the plates.

I never got to that part because by that time I wanted chainplates on the hull outside.

Through-deck plates pose a real problem with leaking. I'm sure that immobilizing the plates on the bulkheads inside is the main remedy. Longer plates, more fasteners is the answer. Caulking the holes is the next problem. At the moment polysulfide is the tube-rubber of choice. It lasts longer, stays flexible longer UV wise, and sticks pretty good to the dissimilar materials. New generation hybrid synthetics are looking even better, like the silicone/polyurethanes. I'm not sure that Life-Caulk is new generation. Bostik seems to have solved all the sealant/adhesive problems of the hybrid.

An important addition to through the deck plates is the 'fashion' piece, I think it's called, that slips over the plate and surrounds the plate on deck. They allow you to add more rubber and expand the surface of the gasket. Would also 'V' the top of the chainplate slot a bit to anchor the rubber in the hole. Also smear the plate with the goop where it goes through. Want to keep water from entering at all costs - especially if you decide to go with new stainless steel chainplates. Water getting in between the steel and the rubber will cause corrosion in the steel. New plates have to be 316L. Or bronze like the original.
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see Mike's NEXT POST
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..sigh... BEAUTY plates, how could I forget that?
So Mike has done a beautiful job reconstructing his deck! And the chainplates.
His photo shows graphicly the other problem we have with the Pearson chainplate location:

The pull on the plates by the rigging is not fair. We have plates sticking out of the deck at about 90 degrees and the strain on the lower shroud plates is from about 75 degrees. The plates ought to be lined up with the shrouds. Of course that can't happen in that location. If they were the sheer load would be all on the fastenings, the bolts going through the plywood. In this case the plates are being stressed sideways and inwards, and so the plates have to do work. And they work on the deck where you will definitely find some balsa tuna fish. It is a formula for leaking.
Another indication imco that the plates should be thicker and have more bolts if the renovation is in the traditional location.
Could almost guarantee that when you find rot on the tops of plywood bulkheads it'll be on the ones where the lowers are anchored
and very little or no deterioration on the main bulkhead where the pull is straight up.
imco as always.

[mbd]

Ed, if you're not in the mood to redo your whole deck :) and just planning on resealing your chainplates, here's how mine were done last season.

After the chainplates were installed, a generous amount of polysulfide was applied around each fitting, then the "beauty" plates added on top of that, but not snugged down all the way. After allowing the polysulfide to cure for a day, the beauty plates were snugged down. The excess squeeze out was left in place for added insurance. It worked out great for the season.

[commanderpete]

An annoying problem

One time I tried cutting back some of the old sealant and squirting Liquid Life Caulk around the leaky chainplates. Can't remember how much it helped. I wouldn't be too hopeful. I do remember it was messy stuff.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C10918%7C12626%7C311448&id=14627

If you rebed the chainplates I think it helps to sand the bronze smooth where it passes through the deck so that the sealant has a nice clean surface to adhere to.

[mbd]

Hmmm. I did a quick search on Boat Life on the Jamestown Distributors (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com) website, and it looks like they make a BoatLife Life-Calk Primer (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4065&familyName=BoatLife+Life-Calk+Primer) as well.

From the website:

One-part, non-flammable, resin-based primer for use on oily woods and metal. Developed by BoatLIFE (The Polysulfide Experts) to promote maximum adhesion with all polysulfide sealants...
Anything that might help, right? Just slather it on and hope for the best!

[ebb]

Sorry to butt in on a minor point.
BoatLife is the company.
They make Life-Caulk which is a polysulfide.
I think they were the first to market the hybrid silicon/urethane caulk called
LIFE-SEAL.
Most forum people out there on the net get it wrong like I did, so any anecdotal reports on Life-Seal are nulified as they may have gotten the name wrong.
Polysulfide is notorious for not sticking to teak mostly and BoatLife has a specific primer for promoting a bond to that wood and other suspicious material. I haven't seen Life-Seal firsthand either. For the chainplate install I would choose something that will allow disassembly but still is a great water barrier, a tenacious, long lasting, always flexible caulk. Maybe Life-Seal is the stuff, maybe not.

Life-Seal does not require a primer. There isn't any so far as I know. When I ran into the endless spec sheets that Bostik has for their silicon/urethane hybrid products, they boast in places that the caulk does not need primer - other than clean dry universal surfaces. ANY surface!

And I believe, tho out of frustration may have dreamed it, the hybrid has a projected 40 year service life. One tube caulk that can do everything almost brings tears to my eyes. Go to www.boatlife.com to read the spec sheet on LifeSeal. Open time on a complicated install is important. To me, anyway, since I'm so slow. LifeSeal is quick to skin over and may become problematic. Dunno, have not used it yet.

By the way, it is a fact that polysulfide can only be used on three common plastics: epoxy, delrin (acetal) and nylon. All other common plastics are attacked by p.sulfide: like polycarbonate, acrylic, pvc, abs, styrene. And it has another unique feature: if you have used it to caulk the coaming/deck seam, Cetol will turn that into a gooey mess when you violate your coamings with it! Gotta wonder what's in Cetol to cause that to happen? Polysulfide is resistant to solvents and everyday boat chemicals. Polysulfide imco is great under water and under the beauty-plates around chainplates.
I may use LifeSeal because it supposedly STICKS TO METAL better. If using highly polished s.s. for chainplates, that's a good reason right there. And I believe it has a longer (projected) service life and because of the silicone part may do better on a hot deck.

[Ed Ekers]

Thanks all for your response. To answer ebb, the deck is in good shape, I do not intend to remove the plates, and I did not notice any soft spots. My preference is to leave the chain plates right where they are but I would love to have some of those nifty beauty plates. Is the a source for them?

All that being said it sounds like the method preferred is to use Boat life sealeant and be neat with it or be prepared for a messy clean up.

In reference to ebbs post we have found the forward plates tend to leak the most. This may be due to the method that we use to tune our rig.

Forecast is for rain this week so off I go to work on the leak but based on the sun shinning right now I might just untie and go see if I can find some dolphins playing in the surf line….
Thanks again to all, I knew you would help and ol sailor out ……ed

[ebb]

ED
google Chainplates Do Yours Leak?
express27.org/articles/chainplates
........Answers your question specificly and suggests a fix.

Somebody here found those beauty plates, they were cast, weren't they
Maybe RigRite? Look these up under "chainplate covers"

But a machine shop would have no problem making them.
The shop will cup them slightly so that the rubber is not squeezed thin and is held tightly over the hole and around the chainplate......

If your chainplates are the original, you could make the beautyplates yourself out of 1/8" bronze plate. Being relatively soft, the cutting could be done in a home shop, no problema.
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If you want an easy upgrade of your chainplates consider buying readymaids from Shaffer Marine. They must have the the right LONGER plates and you can get matching coverplates for them. (I often go to mauriprosailing.com to look things up because they have a full catalog with pictures and measurements - usually)

[Bill]

A note on Boat Life's "Life Seal." The stuff appears to be a mix that includes silicon. Used it to caulk the large windows and found that any little bit that hit the deck was (and still is!) difficult to remove. You think it's gone, but . . :mad:

[CapnK]

...{snip}... found that any little bit that hit the deck was (and still is!) difficult to remove. You think it's gone, but . . :mad:

...and cue Craig "I HATE Silicone! (with a Passion!!!)" Amos in 3, 2, 1...


:D :p :D

[ebb]

BILL, for your deck:
Find an auto-paint supply and ask them for silicone remover or digester.
I've rattled on about this subject elsewhere. So that info is here. I guess.

You may find something that works in an aerosol can from them. Prepping cars for painting requires removal of many cured goops and gunk, among them silicone.

LifeSeal spec sheet does not talk about removal of uncured or cured. Actually it says "soap and water". With uncured anything I always try alcohol first. Alcohol evaporates, so you are ready right away to go onto your next goof - water will stick around too long. Cured you probably have to grind it off. Before grinding a windowglass scraper with the retractable blade, or a utilityknife blade. or maybe you should own one of those Bahco pullscrapers with carbide blades, a wonderful facile surgical tool. Black ergo handle with orange, comes with a scabbard. Then finish up with
naptha
and a green scotch-brite pad. Naptha might work on newer cured rubber.

Next thing to try is
Goof-Off.
Both will be found in small cans. NOT expensive.

Then, touch up the deck!:rolleyes:
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BoatLife has a "release" in an aerosol for their p.sulfide.
Silicones have their 'digesters' but are not readily available. Try McMasterCarr.
None have removers for the hybrid that I've seen.
But, like they say, don't commit yerself to something unless you have a withdrawal plan.

[Scott Galloway]

Ed,

Given where Pathfinder is now, try Chas at Aquarius. He made a set of new 316 stainless steel chain plates for me in 2004 when Aquarius was based in Moss Landing. You can now have a set made by Aquarius in Santa Cruz. I am most pleased with mine. I do not wish to start a debate again on this site about the virtues of bronze vs. stainless steel, or about 304 ss vs. 316 ss. There is plenty of that information about this topic on this forum already, and both sides have their virtues. So make a judgement call and then replace your plates.

Suffice it to say that my website and specifically page #

http://www.solopublications.com/sailarir.htm

speaks for itself about this issue.

I did bed my new 316 ss chain plates with 3M 5200 (Perhaps a bit too permanent, but snug). I bedded the 316 SS plate covers with boat life. You need to re-bed the plate covers from time to time, but mine are still basically holding back the rain. And they do fine when the rail is down for prolonged periods. However, chain plates by their nature do strain at (work in) the deck. Despite every attempt to prevent them from happening, leaks happen.

I did find a bit of delamination in the deck when I removed the old bronze plates. I filled the delaminated area with epoxy, and filled the slots with epoxy also. I then cut new slots though the new solid epoxy deck section before mounting the new plates.

I realized that the original bronze chain plates were badly shot when I removed them (see my website). The mostly colloidal copper bolts (bronze when originally installed at the factory) sheered when I tried to remove them. The bronze chain plates were in similar condition: They had pretty turned to red copper. See photos on my web site. Also I reinforced the bulkheads and epoxy lined all of the chain plate boltholes while I was at it. I added a mess of reinforcing cloth and epoxy to seal the bulkheads and knees from the effect of any future water intrusion (something that was not done at the factory).

So give me a call or send me some e-mail, and I'll show you what I did on Augustine if you want to see the application. In my opinion Aquarius (Chas in particular) can't be beat for metal fabrication, quality-wise. He is a very professional professional. He had already done work for me before before I replaced my chain plates, so I knew I could trust his work. I have never been disappointed in what he produces for me. Hey do it right. Your life depends on it!

So give me a call. Since we're neighbors let's be friends!


Scott

[Ed Ekers]

Hey Scott,

Thanks for your tips. I guess my question is why. Did you see something that made you change the chain plates or was this something you thought you needed to do as part of the mast project?

As far as Pathfinder goes we did do a restoration project on the uppers plates some years age. We were involved in a collision and took a bow dead center right on the bulk head for the uppers. Thought it was wise to do both sides of the rig at the time.

Only other issue I see is the leaking of the forward shrouds. I have caulked them in the past but I think because we sail with so much rake in the mast we tend to strain the forwards more at deck level. Small price to pay to get the boat to point in my opinion.

If you see me on “L” dock drop be and we can talk sailing. By the way the blue Ariel is also on our dock…….ed

[ebb]

Life Seal by Boat Life. A bit confusing. Life Calk is the p.sulfide. That's Life.
The hybrid mix has the attributes of both but without silicone's nasty oily gelcoat contaminating quality. The gelcoat contamination of silicone means that nothing, no caulk, will ever stick in that place again - not even silicone. I have had to remove the gelcoat in places on 338.
It does not appear that silicone contaminates, in this way, when combined with polyurethane.

While we were out to lunch, hybrid caulks have progressed somewhat. We now have specific choices coming from Bostik. My understanding is that while we've had the one Boat Life product, Bostik has expanded the hybrid line in construction, industry, and marine for more than a decade in Japan and Europe. Successfully. We no longer have to depend on the restricted uses of polysulfide caulk or polyurethane caulk - BOTH OF WHICH HAVE REALLY LIMITED USE ON A BOAT. Neither can be depended on to stay elastic or flexible on deck for long (5 to 7 years springs to mind) - which is what the newer hybrids promise to fix - at least twice the life on deck of p.sulfide & p.urethane. With silicone caulk having NO USE ON A BOAT.*

I have not yet used these Bostik products (There are four listed at the address below - but there are more Bostik SMP, silyl-modified-polymer, products - some of which have revolutionized wood (and cork) deck applications.

Bostik 70-08A is a low slump, high green strength bedding for windows, windscreens, glass, p.acrylate, p.carbonate, hatches, portholes, cleats, fittings. Directed toward glazing situations. More of a paste, less compressible.
It is permanent, elastic, UV resistant, sandable, paintable. Can be tooled with soapywater or alcohol. User friendly, that's what they say.


Bostik Marine 940A (the slow version with 30/45 min open time)
will give us permanent elastic bonds, the same UV resistance, and it sticks all metals, fiberglass, epdm rubber, pvc. No primer needed. Both caulks produce No outgassing, No isocynates, No organic solvents. B.M. 960SR will not 'pull gelcoat'. It may be comparable with 3M4200 in that regard - except it is a silyl-polymer hybrid. BM940A may be compared with 3M5200. This is my take.

While these second two caulks seem to be the solution for nearly EVERY caulking situation on a boat, the data sheet says it is not for glazing.
google Bostik - Marine Sealants and Adhesives
www.bostik-us.com/products/index.asp?fa=categories&divisionld=11&categoryld=47
[if you get main site: curser 'Marine' on menu. Then curser SMP. Data sheets here.]

Use the primer (MSR Primer M) for high stress wet conditions. While the data sheet states no primer is necessary, it does say the primer will enhance adhesion and bond.
Imco, along with a chainplate upgrade, it ought to be included. Could possibly help where damn silicone caulk has gone before.

By the way, Bostik has been in the US since 1892. You can get the stuff through JamestownDist.
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This comment here is a later addition:

Jamestown Dist Online lists only the usual array of caulks.
THEY ARE NOT LISTING ANY BOSTIK PRODUCTS.

Finding an internet catalog site for Bostik (also Samson) marine products is totally frustrating. There is no direct source for Silyl Modified Polymer that I am able to find. Torresen is a source but consistently have the highest prices for anything, so I do not visit their site anymore. Other sources are equally useless. For instance, using Bostik's own distributor index for marine caulk brings up local construction contractors. They do not have any marine sealants, And they do not retail to the lumpen sailor.
Haven't a clue why their marine rubbers are not able to be sold in our marine catalog venues. THEIR LOSS.
It means their, what looks like great products, will not enter the mainstream.
Recommendations from the gallery forums would do a lot to spread the word. OUR LOSS as well. I will not pursue this any further.

IT MAY INDICATE BOSTIK PRODUCTS ARE TOO DIFFICULT TO USE.
AND IT MAY ALSO BE AN INDICATION THAT THE PRODUCTS ARE TOO OVERPRICED TO SURVIVE THE COMPETITIVE MARKETPLACE.
VIZ; TO PROTECT THEIR DISTRIBUTORS THEIR CAULKS WILL NOT BE DISCOUNTED IN CATALOGS AND STORES.

To be fair: If you have the hardcopy 1000 page Jamestown Dist Building and Marine Supplies catalog, you will find Bostik 940 and 960 listed for about $16/$17 a tube, Page 405 in their BIGBOOK. They do not seem to know that these two products are hybrid sealants. 1-800-423-0030. Good Luck.


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*Aside from the UV and heat exposure problems that p.sulfide and p.urethane both have, p.urethane cannot be used exposed to kerosene, diesel or gasoline - and many other solvents and cleaners. P.sulfide (OK with fuels) cannot be used with most plastics and exposed to potable water due to out-gassing. To be fair, NO mention on any Bostik data sheet iis given to SMP being OK with fuels. By inference in could be used with potable water as it has no solvents in it. Research needed here.

[Scott Galloway]

Ed,

The reason that I removed and replaced the chain plates on "Augustine" was that I had the mast down after an accident in 2004 that stressed the rigging. I was replacing the standing rigging from the deck up at that time. I was also doing some work on the mast. I removed the chain plates to inspect them and also to inspect the bulkheads where they attach, since evident corrosion on the chain plates and the bolts demonstrated that long-term leaks were probable. I did add some cloth and epoxy to the bulkheads and sealed the top of the bulkheads, which was originally raw plywood. I also epoxied the boltholes and then re-drilled them. In any case, there were some deck voids in the area of the chain plates. These were repaired. I filled the old slots with epoxy and cut new ones such that the slots are line with epoxy. If leaks occur in the future, the water will not penetrate the deck laminate.

Inspection of the chain plates and the fact that the bronze bolts snapped off when I tried to remove them led me to the decision to have new chain plates made of 316 stainless steel. I had two professionals inspect the plates and they both advised me to replace the plates. Other than the fabrication of the six chain plates and six new plate covers by Aquarius, there were no labor expenses. I did all of the deck and bulkhead repairs, and installed the new plates. The expense (other than plate fabrication and polishing) amounted to the money that I spent for a small quantity of epoxy, some fiberglass cloth, some new bolts, and a can of paint.

With the variable strain on these through-deck chain plates, leaks are simply going to occur from time to time. Removal and re-bedding of the plate covers is a must every so often. Since I really didn’t want to use an adhesive caulk like 4200 on the plate covers, I used a polysulfide caulk. The plate covers will be easy to remove and clean when it comes time.

I do know about the proliferation of Ariels on L dock. Actually, I have been out sailing on "Skates." I walk or ride by L dock every week or so, and I usually scan the dock for Ariel owners. I have not seen you down on the dock since your return. If I do, I will drop by to say hello. Please fell free to do so on W dock where I hang out…or come for a sail on Augustine sometime. I could use some speed-maximization pointers.

[Ed Ekers]

Scott,
Thanks for the invite. I may take you up on it some day (if we see the sun again).

I may take another look at the plates. As I stated we have done the upper shroud plates so I think it would be an easy job to replace the lower ones if needed without dropping the mast. I am just not that interested in taking down the rig any time soon.

Thanks for the tip on Aquarius, I will keep them in mind should the need come up.
Talk to ya soon…..ed

[Scott Galloway]

Ed,

This is what I found when I removed my chain plates in 2004. Notice the very small shiny bronze core remaining at the center of the bolts. The red stuff is the oxidized copper remaining in the larger (outer) cross section of the bolts. These bolts sheared when I put a wrench to them. Also note the reddish hue of the chain plate on the left. I used a wire brush head on my electric drill to strip this chain plate. The green one on the right is the way the chain plates looked when I removed them. I could not strip away the red copper. I did not cut completely through any of the old chain plates to look for good metal. I used the old chain plates as templates for my new plates. And by the way, the bolthole locations on each plate were slightly different, so I needed all six plates to use as templates. I wrote the locations on the blue tape so that I would know where to place the new chain plates.

[ebb]

I think that two years ago Ed's question about Ariel chainplates was answered.
Then there's ebb's way fat posts on what he thinks is related stuff!

Today, 6/5/10, littlegull's exterior bronze chainplates get installed.
There will eventually be a shot of them on the Gallery page.

For all the words on what goop to use I've decided to go with white butyl tape with some white tube butyl to juice the bolts with for insurance.
Butyl ALWAYS stays flexible, gummy and sticky. It is dirt cheap. The stuff you're bolting on can be removed without prayer in the future.
It is not an adhesive, so initially leaks are theoretically possible.
Cruisers who have used butyl for their port lights are universally happy with the stuff.
Some may have used it elsewhere on thirs boats that I have missed in research.

If I still had plates coming throu the deck, I would renovate their holes as described with epoxy, and use butyl instead of expensive rubbber.
I might leave a little door of opportunity open for the use of silyl modified polyurethane.
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EDIT: The rolls of narrow buty were deformed by inconsiderate packing from an internet RV source for the tape. The paper interleaf would unroll before the stickum leaving the butyl unsupported. The 'tape' will deform and stick to anything it touches. It is gummy so you cannot pull a piece off - it has to be cut with scissors - thins and narrows when pulled. What a PITA. So I ended up piling on deformed strips on the flat of the plate and slapping the plate onto the hull in this case) and depending on the clamping of the bolts to achieve an even 'bedding line'. The tube butyl I used under the heads of the bolts is much thinner and viscous and would not work imco alone to mount a fitting. You need somw thickness and resistance in the bedding. The tape is very sticky stuff.
But smears clean up easy with mineral spirits.

EDIT, Tremendous clamping loads by fat plates and oversize bolts will conceivably squash butyl tape to zero thickness. Did chamfer the bolt holes on the hull, so there is a small ring of waterproofing around the bolt. Better would have been using O-rings or plastic washers around the hole to help keep butyl from squeezing out all the way. They also contribute to waterproofing the holes by creating a barrier of their own.
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Later EDIT on BEDDING stainless:
316 stainless steel survives well exposed in the marine environment when chromium in the alloy is allowed to form c.oxide on its surface in the presense of air.
Bedding stainless is therefor frowned upon.
Seen countless boats with bleeding rust sprouting from underneath stainless steel fittings.
In My Considered Opinion when we bed stainless we must abrade the shiney surface of the polished fitting with a scotchbrite pad. [I'm not the only one!]
I'd bluetape off the exposed metal of a s.s. chainplate and scrub just the buried parts of the s.s. with at least a green nylon scotchbrite pad*.
We want to prep the buried parts of the fitting to stick VERY WELL to our choice of bedding compound. We want to create a surface on the polished s.s. that the compound wants to stick to.
NEVER grind or sand or use any abrasive! Don't even be tempted, you will be creating a cause for crevis corrosion.:eek:
Use only a nylon pad.
We can test for a well prepped surface by spraying a little water on it. If water "runs free" and does NOT REFORM INTO DROPS we have then the best surface we can expect for bedding and keeping salt water out of the joint. Any water out of the joint.
as always: imco.
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* I've frosted favorite glassware over time by cleaning with green nylon kitchen scrubbers. The stuff is sharp and abrasive in its own right.

[CapnK]

Looking forward to those pics, ebb!