Corkish deck treatment

[CapnK]

Saw a French fellow I've done some work for installing teak decks on his boat, only to find out that it isn't teak...

It's called "Marine Deck 2000", and the best way I can describe it is to say it looks like rubberized cork.

It comes in 'planks' of about 5/16" thickness, and when you order it, the company makes it custom using CAD to the deck layout of your boat (you send 'em a diagram/drawing, I think). The stuff is surprisingly tough; the piece I got from the fellow here didn't break until I had folded it double, *and* squeezed hard at the fold.

It is nice looking, has insulative (is that a word?) properties, is owner-installable, and is supposed to last for 30 years. If it gets excessively soiled, you can sand off down to new looking material again, and it is also replaceable.

More info at the site:

http://www.stazo.nl/html/exterior.html

The fellow here has a 50'ish modern-design boat (read: beamy), and he told me his installation cost was right at $10K (that included the decking materials, and all adhesives etc needed for install). The American importer/distributor is up in Maine, if I understood correctly.

Here's a pic from the manufacturer. Lot and lots of info at the site.

http://www.stazo.nl/assets/images/mdext1.gif

[ebb]

Nice find, Kurt.

Just from a quick peruse of their web sites, one thing is certain to my eye, it looks like cork and doesn't look like teak. When I scrolled the how-to of the instruction manual, where there are a bunch of close ups, I notice the edges of the strips have a slight wave. You can pick it out when strips are photoed side by side. That translates for me to a strange rubber grout line if you fill it for a traditional look. To me the grout doesn't look 'clean'. Imco it's noticeable in all the deck shots. I'm just looking at photos.

When you see a teak laid deck the lines are so sharp they hurt the eyeball. The cork deck look isn't bad at all, but it isn't a sub for teak - and there is a long list of pluses for trying this stuff, one, indeed, is its insulatory (insulational) quality.

I think sheets of this cork product would look better than imitation teak strips. Would it look good as pads protecting the foredeck from anchor and chain? Would it look good inside against the hull? How about a piece on the cabin sole? On the ladder?
Found one US vendor up in Maine!

One price reference suggests it is as expensive as teak! Portuguese bark crumbs never had it so good.:rolleyes:
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Cork has been around for a good long time in flooring and shoes, so the synthetic resins used to amalgamate the cork bits have had a good long time to develop. PVC? Polyethylene? Maybe the local floor covering emporium has something just as good. Be nice if the marine cork people had introduced subtle color variations in the strip using the bark itself. There's a sameness to the color that makes it kindof trawler. Maybe in small quantities, like the side decks on an Ariel, the stuff would be perfect!

[CapnK]

Hiya ebb!

It's the photo's that make the edges look that way, especially in the manual. Because of how both the .jpeg and .pdf formats/standards use compression of data to reduce file size, they make straight lines look not-so-straight (the technical term would be anti-aliasing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aliasing), I believe, see link for examples). In real life, the edges are very clean, and very straight - much straighter than any saw cut I am able to make! :)

I took these pics to try and demonstrate that for you, since I have some of the product. Although you can see the edges aren't *perfectly* straight, looking at the scale of the unevenness compared to the size of my fingertips, any unevenness is very small, on the order of the grain of wood, it would seem. The boat I saw this stuff being installed on was not yet 'grouted' (that's not the proper term, but I don't know what is - Mike?), so I don't know if that would show any obvious 'flaws' in the straightness, but again - I think you'd have to look very closely to see if there were any.

And while of course such close inspection can't hide the fact that the decks are not teak, the color of the material - again in real life vs photographs - is very close to that of fresh-sawn teak. When I first saw it from ~20 feet away, it was hard to tell a difference. Later, I held my sample up against the teak toerail of a brand-new Beneteau I'm commissioning for comparison, and it was very close in color.

So, No, it isn't teak, but it looks somewhat like it, and though perhaps as expensive initially as teak is, a lifetime of 30 years with little to no maintenance - or even ten years - would make it a lot cheaper overall. Assuming of course that it does indeed require less maintenance, almost none, as according to the manufacturer. I realize that Of Course that is what they are going to say/claim... :rolleyes: , but since this material is very much more waterproof than teak, I think there likely is something to that claim. Not absorbing water would help greatly with expansion/contraction, which is what would seem to be the cause for teak (or other wood) decks to age and eventually start failing.

It certainly looks better than astroturf. ;D

I don't know if I'll be able to afford it, but it seems to be one of the best options I've seen for covering the decks, which in itself is an idea I like. Keeping the sun/heat/cold off the decks, less glare on the eyes, a good non-slip surface - it has many elements of the Holy Grail of Deck Surfaces. :D

[ebb]

Hiya Kurt.
Guess while the website here was vacationing it et my rejoinder.
Yes, I have noticed that pixels have a hard time sometimes to rep a straight line. YET that excellent thumb shot does seem to show a very corky material anyway, tho not wavey. I got to see that stuff live on a deck. What a teak deck has going for it is its surgical preciseness. I'm convinced that laying a traditional teak deck takes an artist. It would be fantastic to have an alternative with all the attributes claimed for cork. Is it going to hold up when doing the finicky work like bordering and nibbing the kingplank? Can I shave iit with my lowangle plane?

My first thought is how it will sand after the sulfide is in. Teak is a lot harder than the cork. Twopart polysulfide is the messiest material on the planet. Sanding the whole surface is a step that has to be included in the figuring. It's done with a floorsander on big jobs using 50 grit! There is the possibility that because we don't need macho polysulfide on a cork deck put down on a plastic composite that is essentially already waterproof....an easier to sand caulk might be available. One that lasts as long as the cork is supposed to, sticks better than normal twopart sulfide which I've seen loose its elastic like five years into service and shrink away from teak.

Then, suppose we decided to cork an Ariel deck?
The cork's thickness means we probably have to do away with 'waterways'. We'd have to completely cover the surface with the material. If you hold back from the toerail, would we hold back from the cabin? If we hold back around coach roof, we need crossdeck waterways. What about fixtures like stanchion bases, cleats, tracks and other hardware? Hardware could have a hard plate footprint made in the thickness of the cork, or slightly thicker: 3/8" rather than 5/16".
Time consuming steps. Adding or moving hardware would be a chore.
If we go edge to edge, sanding the deck might mess with the gelcoat on the toerail and cabin side and coamings. Stuff like that.
MARINE Cork may be worth it. How it's made is proprietary no doubt, but there must be commercial long life outdoor cork sheet at a non-marine price out there! The binding material is a clear polyurethane.

If the material is truely 'new' how does anybody know how long it lasts? That's the one that always gets me.
And how well does it actually do in extreme environments?
We're not talking about a cocktail yacht here!
Just asking:D
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Remember when we first looked in on this IMPRESSIVE website?
http://www.tritonclass.org/mir/PARKERDECK.htm
google MARK PARKER TEAK DECK
The method described details that the whole deck has to be laid out dry first.
This means that some method for holding the strips and all has to be used, screws in Mark's case. I can't see any other way of doing it either! Whether you want to pierce your balsa deck with a thousand little points of leakage is not to be taken lightly.
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http://www.tek-dek-benelux.nl/ps_june04.pdf
google Synthetic Teak Test
check it out - it's Practical Sailor doing its thing. Gigantic 1footX1foot test samples.
www.tek-dek-international.com/Documents/Practical%20Sailor-8%20mont
hs%20later.pdf-
That's the update on the Tekdek site - who came out on top.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6540&page=3
google Synthetic teak deck - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums (where the opening words of wisdom are "F. is a PVC compound not vinyl."(!)
There is here some seemingly credible heavyweight anecdotals on the cork deck. Despite idiotic PS "testing", I would go with MarineDeck 2000 as a DIY.

[CapnK]

Ebb - I must have missed the earlier discussion, there's good reading at all those links, it does sound like the cork stuff is the way to go, if you are going to do a synthetic deck.

More n more n more food for thought... :)

Thanks for the links!

[CapnK]

Gotta add - lots of those folks seem to think that whether it looks like real teak or not is the determining factor of a product. One even went so far as to say something like the look was the most important consideration.

Say what??? On a sea-going vessel??? Hmmm....

Not so for me.

I am more concerned with function. I could care less whether my deck has properly spaced lines, or exact teak color, etc... What *I* want for my boat deck is non-slip, ease of care, looks, ease of installation, and a good price, in roughly that order.

To whit - I wish they sold the MD2K in plain flat tiles or wide planks with no seams at all. I would not mind one bit having a solid seamless deck material - I mean, that's what I *already* have, so having one that insulated the boat, wore well, and was easier to apply would sell me in a heartbeat.

Sounds like the cork stuff wears extremely well, if they're using it on cruise ships and ferries!

[Ed Ekers]

beauty is in the beholder.........
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1021&highlight=carpet+deck

[mbd]

You beat me to it Ed. I was thinking of that very picture after Kurt's reply as well.


What *I* want for my boat deck is non-slip, ease of care, looks, ease of installation, and a good price...

Excepting for "looks", that particular installation about pegs all of his points. 4 out of 5 ain't bad. :p

[ebb]

It appears the rubber compounds used for this cork deck, bedding and seam sealant, are both isocyanate, solvent-free forward versions of a silicone/polyurethane cross.
Silyl Modified Polymer, MSR on the tube.
Literature implies that the seam material will match the life of the cork - which could be as much as 30years! For DIY, open times are pretty short, ranging from 15 mins to 45 minutes. Have to plan to do one section at a time. Only way, anyway, if you're doing it alone. Interesting that all the paper on the products are for teak installation. Cork is not mentioned specifically.

Similar formulations have been used in Japan for 20 years, I read. Marketeers were afraid to intro it here because silicone and polyurethane sales were so strong. Doesn't sound quite right. Anyway, that's a track record of some sort that now relates to a universal marine market. UV resistance is everything imco. In reading datasheets on this hybrid polymer, you and I and the marine industry won't be using polysulfide, polyurethane, or silicone caulk anymore. This stuff does it all better.

Durometer hardness compares the rubber's Shore 40A to 'inner tube.' And the cork is compared to a 'textbook cover'. Shore 40D. Textbook covers if I remember were cloth covered cardboard. Pretty hard. The sharp corners always got dogeared. They were fine until they got wet. To me the separation in hardness, cork to caulk, is important for finish sanding of the project. If the rubber is too hard the cork will get destroyed in sanding. There obviously is a generous sanding time window when the material is set but not fully cured.
This MSR deck caulk could be the breakthru goop everybody is waiting for. Both one part and two part polysulfide (and polyurethane) cracks and hardens and pulls away in too short a time out of the water. UV.
We have had BoatLife's LifeSeal for a while. And 3M, maybe others, have hybrid caulks now. None suggest using their caulks for decking, hull-to-deck joints, glazing, stanchion bases - all in one breath!

All the info I found is not aimed at a DIY market. As the economy weakens, they'll get off their high decks and offer an installation manual to us peeons. I'd lend them Little Gull for the dvd demo! Yes, I would! Not sure where you buy the system here in the States? Defender should sell it. Dollar is worth half the Euro these days, maybe that's why the system is too expensive.

Bostik (Dutch outfit) has a whole range of marine goops. Product data sheets on this hybrid synthetic makes the adhesive/sealant sound fantastic. No solvent, no out gassing, single component, UV resistant, sticks to wood, sticks to glass, metal, other rubber and pvc. Stays elastic from minus 40 to 212 degrees.
Haven't found Bostik for sale here. But selling cork instead of teak decking to the super rich can't be that easy. Did read though that Etap does some million dollar boats with cork....
Not good for us, cork at teak prices is rediculous ($30 a square?!!!).:(
Kurt, have you priced this out for our Ariel deck and cockpit?
Found a distributor? H m m m m m m m .......

From the tone and presentation of the products on the net the cork and the sealant companys are inextricably related. May be they are a single-tier outfit?
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There is a new to me term used to describe some of these products:
GREEN STRENGTH. Not an ecological or anti-oxidant drink term.
As I understand it, it refers to thye uncured material's resistance to being squeezed out. If, for instance, you are slabbing windows onto a curved cabin side with tube caulk, you are guaranteed that the caulk will be squeezed thin in some places so that it becomes useless and eventually leaks.
I haven't used this Bostik caulk, so can't speak for it. The goop has to flow from the tube, has to have good open-time imco, not set up too quick, and at the same time, as the data sheet says, has "Excellent Green Strength" doesn't squishout everywhere....THAT would be incredible. But I guess like all this sticky wicky you have to develop experience with it. For the DIY ease of AP is very important. Hang time is everything! Like those crazy skateboarders, you have to make life altering decisions while flying!:D

[ebb]

HARHHNT on the boat design.net seems to be an authority on the subject. He sounds righton and beats the drum smartly. Besides he is the only one on to the subject. Most below here is synops of his post.

(So go there and check the quorum out if you are interested in this subject.)

Marinedeck 2000 is heavier and denser than Seacork.
When it grays if you leave it alone, the small gray cork particles will receed into the background as the orange of the urethane becomes "the more prevalent color."
Installed strip by strip it is very labor intensive.

Seacork is softer underfoot. Cork granules are larger. Half the price of MD2K.
Available in sheets, may be some thickness choices. Decking thickness may only be available in sheet form.
If you do teaky strips you have to cut the caulking grooves in yourself.
Can treat Seacork deck like teak and use two-part cleaners on it.
"Staining is not an issue." Seacork is a French product. Don't know what the binder is. Or life expectancy.
http://www.marine-solutions.com/seacork.asp
is the only US importer that comes up. But I don't know if they SELL it or install it? It appears they are connected with BOTH deck corks. Pictures here, no sailboats.
Don't know if it can be bent sideways like MD2K strips. Maybe MD2K can be described as a rubber product with suspended cork particles, while Seacork is a cork product glued together with rubber.
Also in a picture series showing an install on a catamaran, the sanding pics are mysteriously missing!

One thing, I've seen no complaints from postees on either product. It may be that the lighter product is more appropriate for our Ariel.
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If I were going to cork Little Gull, I might not go the way of a tiresome false teak strip deck. No way.
I'm thinking that a border like what we see on a regular teak deck could be put around the cabin and along the coamings. Cork. A slightly wider cork border along the toerails stem to stern. Get off on curvaceous here. Then islands of sheet cork glued in between borders in the style of modern antiskid decks - with what I'd call cross-deck logical waterways separating them just as if it had been painted and sanded. This may be a way of handling available length constraints. A faux painted deck done in cork! Insulational, completely flat. and easy to get down on.
Tre-cool Doris!
The crossing unwaterways would ofcourse be single teak strips with black caulked grooves on both sides. The borders would also be framed with spiffy pinstripes of black MSR. Hey, if we can accept faux teak decks, then why not an imitation painted-antiskid cork deck?:cool: Whatdooyathink?
Your turn...

[CapnK]

This is a topic that will definitely be revisited!

Regarding carpet decks: yes, I've considered doing that! :) In fact, there is a fellow on sailFar from Down Under who has an aggressive carpet on his decks that serves him well, and really doesn't look so bad in the pics he's posted:

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/backdecknew+.JPG

The product is made by Autex (http://www.autex.co.nz/carpet/range/decordwidetrack.html) in New Zealand.

If I could get it in tan or light gray, with good UV resistance, it would win, hands down - besides the other factors, it would be only a days work to apply. However, he relates that the 2 colors with lots of UV resist are either the blue/black he has, or a grey/black that he thinks would get dirty-looking. I'll need a sample to determine if I think the same.

He also says it insulates really well, but I think that perhaps the cork might do even better. Would cork be as non-slippery? Whoknows...

Ebb, I like your ideas for reducing the installation time and effort by using a combo technique.

I think I'd also prefer the 'more rubber' stuff, it just seems like it might be tougher in the long run...

[mbd]

I think I'd also prefer the 'more rubber' stuff, it just seems like it might be tougher in the long run.....and save you from getting carpet burn. ;) That application actually doesn't look so bad.

Seriously though - I love how you guys think outside the box. Now if we could just get you to post pictures of your ongoing efforts... :rolleyes:

[ebb]

Gee Kurt,
(Ebb's opinion, for what it's worth.......)
I looked into carpet a while back, too.
The problem with berber style and cut pile outdoor (viz Bassboat and Pontoon) carpet imco is that it is too thick and would tend to collect dirt, not to forget water, even algae. Cabella's has boat carpet if you want to take a look. All too thick for me.

Then 'felts' like some of the Autex products showed up. Most of these had too much luxury too. Luxury equals loft.
I think that if you are looking for antiskid, THIN is best. However there's always someone that would go for Astroturf.
A too quick look at your link on marine carpet reveals that most of the stuff is too dark. Probably because hiding foot traffic is high priority. They do have a couple I would like to see first hand: 'Images' has one light color that might fit the wish-it-was-teak look. 'Flex2' has three lighter colors, but it is interior felt.

Polyester and wool blend carpet is out, of course, even if they sell the stuff as outdoor. UV polypropylene and nylon I'd have to study more about. I'm leaning toward olefin (polyethylene) felts because like my 'polartec' fleece jackets water FALLS out of the fabric. And you might even find material made out of recycled 7-Up bottles. Keep your green mojo going.

But - don't remember why I gave up the search - there has to be choice in thickness. And non-woven felt is, as you know, a flat dense material that imco should not hold particles of whatever gets on deck. And really isn't carpet per-se.

Wouldn't you want very thin, 1/8", for antskid islands, and imco, lighter colors? And maybe a thicker softer material, like 1/4", for lining the hull inside - with the same choice in lighter colors. Have no idea what the R factor is for 1/4" olefin hull liner but it might be the ticket for stopping condensation - and if it did get wet, water really does have no affinity for it. Would research the mold factor, though.

Good to know what's out there....!:D
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Hey C'pete! NEXT POST
now THAT'S THE STUFF WE"VE BEEN LOOKING FOR!

[commanderpete]

I noticed the people who make Marine Deck also make a thinner verion

(PDF warning)

http://www.stazo.nl/SecuTred_Engels.pdf

It might be possible to achieve the same laid plank effect with the thin stuff by cutting it into strips

I'm interested in something like this for the cockpit sole, to start with. Would be nice if it looked more teaky than corky

[CapnK]

Called 'em. :)

Time to end the speculation. :D

The main fella (the one with the prices) is out of the country, but will be getting back to me.

A bit more info: the MarineDeck 2K is also available in sheet form. Hopefully, becaue like that involves much less work on the part of the manufacturer, that means a price savings will get passd on to consumers (Us!). ;)

...not holding my breath, since the product carries the magical expense-adding word "MARINE"... :rolleyes:

Whaaaadbout putting cork flakes/chunks into epoxy, and rolling that on? Once kicked, sand - seems the cork might compress, allowing it to stand proud of the 'poxy post-sanding. Might be worth experimenting with. Will have to get my alcoholic wine sommelier bro-in-law to start saving corks. :D

[ebb]

I know there's someone out here that can figure the deck and cockpit areas
with a fancy formula. I remember using 120/130 sq feet for paint coverage.

So, how do our contendas compare in weight with 120 square feet of material? MD2K - SeaDeck. Is there logic in thinking the thick stuff will last longer than the thin?
Are there longevity differences between SeaDeak and MD2K? Is it a valid assumption that the denser material lasts longer?

The main reason for thinking about covering the whole deck in 1/4" cork is for its insulation value. If MD2K has the edge on longevity and turns into a nice beige when it on the deck awhile then thin sheets are the lightest way to go.

I don't know how the exposed edges hold up - maybe the deck could be painted in urethane, lpu, whatever, and the antiskid could be added on top in the form of cut pieces of cork sheet in whatever patterns that lifts your skirt. Maybe the best of both worlds.