storm shutters

[ebb]

Sea Glass Mike mentions shutters on the sea rails thread.

If there is any interest, a good idea would be worth its weight in plywood or polycarbonate. Or maybe even aluminum.

Shutters would have to be relatively easy to put in place. Fiddling with fastenings in an emergency would be frustrating.

If you have bolts in place they are something that sticks out and could be dangerous. More acceptable might be to have the bolts facing IN around eack window (maybe carriage bolts could be used, as they have a nice smooth head) - would have the attachment nuts inplace that'd be unscreweed - the shutter put on over the bolts - and the nuts put back and cinched. Interior nob thingys could be camoed with curtains.

Exterior shutters are the usual animal, and could be done like the inside shutter idea. But you'd have these nobs to contend with that again could be dangerous or at least THERE too much.

Exterior shutters would have to be thicker because they must resist the full 'peeling' forces of heavy water. Might get away with thinner shutter material inside. Thinner material would conform to any curvature the windows have and make for a better seal.

Other ideas might have a frame into which you slide the shutters. Or a pinless hinge or ledge into which you seat the shutter as a lid and then close off the window with some latches. Could be inside or outside.

Simple is best. Flat shutters without stuff attached would store better.

And, there's how it looks when the shutters are off.
Anybody.....? Got input.....?

[mbd]

Hey Ebb,

I think setting up storm shutters should be like reefing - do it before you HAVE to. And the best storm shutter setup is not to need storm shutters...

Along those lines (not needing them), how about what about doubling the thickness of the deadlights? Reinforcing them from the inside or outside with additional lexan/acrylic? As you said, the edges could be hidden behind curtains or something.
OR
Interior:
Since you won't have interior rails on your cabin top, how about a molded fiberglass panel that conforms to your deadlights which reinforces the lexan/acrylic. It could be hinged at the top, much like the standard bronze opening portals - only this would be a "closing portal". Deploying them would be just a matter of dogging them down.
OR
Exterior:
What about exterior panels (not necessarily rigid) that are attached at the stanchion bases and to your cabin top handrails, kind of forming a tent across your deadlights? Their purpose would be to absorb and deflect the impact of boarding seas, and save your deadlights from a "direct hit". Water flow would be relatively unhindered fore to aft. They could be stored along the lifelines like lee cloths - maybe even serve a dual purpose as "rigid" lee cloths.

How about experienced sailors? The Pardeys? What would Frank do or other sea going Ariels? Craig? What did James Baldwin of Atom do? He's got the same portals too.

[commanderpete]

I tend to agree that, if you're starting from scratch, the answer would be massively thick ports.

I did come across this drawing that uses either a full frame outside the ports or retainers spaced around it to hold the storm shutters

[ebb]

Robust dead lights are best to begin with. The Ariel has large vulnerable windows that need attention for any coastwise and offshore sailing.

338 LittleGull is going with 3/8" Lexan slabbed to the OUTSIDE of the cabin. Toyed with the idea of slabbing them onto the inside which would make adding wood frames to the outside a piece of cake. I'm still going to add shutters at some point - probably inside. I also think that agreeable shutter lids that hinge UP to the cabintop are ok to live with. A good idea. They could most likely be made removable with that type of hinge that has a longer pin with has to be moved sideways to disengage, rather than the snap apart ones. Clear lexan would be my choice here. Gotta look up from playing cards every now and again to look out at the storm.

Polycarbonate needs to be protected from tropical sun.
An eyebrow over the lights outside that deflects much of the overhead sun that also houses rolled-up sunbrella that snaps onto the surround by the frame could be designed. I'd be concerned that if depended on for extra protection during a storm, the fabric would become history. However, plain snap-on or lift-the-dot sunbrella covers for protecting lexan lights like the cabin windows and hatches would extend their life.

The kind of window shutter I envision would hopefully withstand a pitchpole event. There is evidence that water in certain conditions can literally sheer fastenings, hatches, stanchions and lifelines, dorades, dodgers, masts off right at the deck line or cabin side. Hopefully if we are that unlucky we better have some openings that are holding. If hatches were lost but the windows held we might have still a good chance to bail out the cabin.


C'pete's find is a good-un. Sizes depicted could be our windows. I think that the frame fastenings should better match the lid fasteners in strength though - don't know that 8s would do the job, maybe 10s.
I guess a slab-on install like LG will have could have an extra surround added to seat the shutter - but the finished look would be massive. The cabinside look would be kindof of goggle-eyed. Even surrounding the standard Ariel frame with a shutter surround is an esthetic bomb.
However if studs could be permanently placed around the window and a shutter with an integral frame hung on the bolts - that might work - but again, there's a lot of screw-on prep for this option, for which there may not be enough time or opportunity. Small fastenings, cold hands. Whot else we got???

Whew! Brainstorming....heady stuff, let's keep this going!!!!

[ebb]

Sure is great looking at a visual diagram and commenting on it! (post #3)

Stainless steel frame.
This idea requires that a flat 1/4" s.s. frame be fabricated that surrounds the existing framed window. It's easier to imagine than fabricate I think. It's a bit beyond what a home shop could do - doncherthink? Cutting out Stainless plate with a jigsaw, filing and grinding the edges would be so much fun. I figure there is at least 12 FEET of cutting length in EACH of these shutter frames. Then laying out, drilling and tapping the holes... Not me, Eustis.

Plywood frame.
OK, suppose you made the frames outof maranti? Meranti is relative cheap fantastic marine ply. It would not be as strong as stainless. I would layout the frames whole on 1/2" Hydroply or Aquaply (forget which is the all red one) and rout them out. Might get 4 frames out of a 4'X4' piece. How wide the frames? An inch to 1 1/4"? Ease the edges, soak them in thinned epoxy and finishem off like other wood on your baby. Who's going to count the veneers?

McFeelys has some 1/4-20 s.s. (304) threaded inserts. They are 1/2" long, screw into 5/16+" holes and take 1/4"-20 thread machine screws. They are about $2 each. I'd screw these in with epoxy about 6" apart around the frame. Mount the frames onto cheap, easy to use butyl tape with at least #10s, countersinked on the outside, and live with the washers and nuts inside.
Wing head bolts (as shown in the diagram) would screw into the inserts to cinch the lexan shutter on.
I haven't found a source for these. They could be brazed up with a wingnut, a short piece of allthread and a washer.
There are existing shouldered eye-bolts that could be used instead.

The alternative.
Another way is to have 1/4" bolts permanently installed around the existing window onto which a framed tray-like shutter would fit and be cinched down tite with regular wing nuts. In this scenario the threaded ends are outside, heads inside.* Thru the cabin-side bolts are far stronger, less likely to be peeled away by green water.

What do you do with the porkcupiney bolts sticking out? Why, of course, have a second lighter duty removable frame that covers them. That frame could dual duty sunbrella fabric protection for boats with plastic windows. Or shade cloth for the glass ones. Might be acceptable, change them out for the storm shutters. Definitely remember where ALL the cinch-nuts were kept! That is still multiple fastenings, cold fingers and a dancing deck to contend with.:eek:


Always thinking, as Mike implied, that an strong window upgrade is SOP for any bluewater bound Ariel. It can be the traditional metal frame and auto- glass OR plastic imco. The hollow cabin sides problem should not be ignored however.
I don't feel that shutters would work unless the space between the cabin side and the liner has been filled a certain width in (2" min, imco) around each window cutout. A job of work anybody can do. The process has been described elsewhere in the archive...



Better idea.
*Why not reverse the procedure? The thru bolts would be exactly the same but reversed so that the shutter would be put on inside the cabin. Looking at round bolt heads (aka carraige bolts, or pan head machine screws) would not be too objectionable around the original frame, would they? IF Ebb did it this way I would seriously consider using 1/4" bronze carriage bolts with an oversized washer under the head. OVERSIZE the thruholes and 5200 the suckers in place.
The actual act of putting shutters on inside would be way easier , safer, and the good ole butterfly nuts wouldn't catch on line and shins.
Less bolts would be needed for inside shutters, as they won't have to withstand sheering action, only sudden water weight thru a window that has been broken. imco 1/4" is the smallest threaded fastening that can be used here. A 1/4" bronze carriage bolt set: bolt, oversize washer, low profile jam nut, washer, brass wingnut would EACH come to somewhere between $4.50 and $5, guess. Don't know the least number you can get away with: 8 - 10 per window???

If you have traditional metal frames with glass, and your shutters are inside on this described bolt array, a piece of appropriate thickness closed-cell foam placed between the glass and the shutter (lexan, so you can still see thru) could absorb bending/breaking forces on the windows during a storm. Outa work good.:cool:

Advantage is that (1) the original smoother look of the coach roof is mostly preserved. (2) It's more aero/hydro-dynamic. And (3) IF windows get crashed, the inside shutters would more likely hold the frames and glass together. Or (4) with the foam insert nothing would happen to them! (5) It would appear more shippy - to me....

{CAUTION
There may be NOT ENOUGH SPACE along the top of the windows INSIDE for stormshutter bolts. With traditional metal frames there may be BUT bolts, washers would be in the curve of the liner. In other words, imco, getting any setback (enough for a washer and a nut) from the original frames (at least on Little Gull) of bolts coming thru from outside ALONG THE TOP would be close to impossible.
Slab-on lexan has a wider footprint. Using 3/8" lthick material may make shutters moot. If you go with slab-on, rather than the original 'floaters', the system has to be removable for replacement and/or recaulking. Any storm shutter fasteners have to be independant of the slab-on. } Enuf on this from me.
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Sometimes wonder if a disclaimer is required on this sortof tank-thinking. These are ideas, not recommendations, and have no official connection with the Association. Ebb
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[ebb]

OK, you forced me into it....

Since stormshutters are essentially for extreme situations, there is no need for them to be fancy (ie bolted on):

Each cabin side inside would have:
One piece of plastic or plywood to cover each window and a horizontal bar down the MIDDLE holding both shutters over the windows. The bar could be sprung in over three 'L' brackets that are permanently in place. At the ends and the middle. NO WING NUTS! The brackets might find other uses when the bar is not in place. Have to have some kind of keeper or register for the shutter pieces so that they wouldn't shift once the bar was put on. I see the shutter pieces and the bar as separate pieces for ease of storage.
("Oh mygawd, Harriet, there are only three shutters here!!!" "You used that one for the emergency rudder!" "Dang! Right. Well, hand me that cushion!")
Brain is empty now.

[atomvoyager]

During Atom's first micro-budget circumnavigation I left the original 1/4 plexiglass deadlights as is and bolted 5/8" plywood storm shutters overhanging the outside of the deadlights a few inches and drilled several 1" holes in them for some light and visibility. They were taken off for extended stays in port and stowed under the V-berth and always installed just before every long passage. They were held against the bronze frames by 1/4" machine screws tapped into the bronze. That was the cheapest and fastest way I knew to deal with the problem at the time. I don't recommend it because it was bulky, heavy, and blocked too much light and snagged lines and looked awful.
.
Later I replaced the acrylic with 3/8" polycarbonate, drilled out the tapped frames and thru-bolted them with acorn nuts on the inside. They seem immensely strong now and I don't see any need for storm shutters. No reason you cant use acrylic or polycarbonate external shutters though if you don't feel the deadlights are strong enough. I like to use polycarbonate for most jobs now because it's easier to cut and drill without chipping and cracking than acylic. Tuffak brand is usually much cheaper than Lexan
and has the same properties as far as I know.

James
Triton #384 Atom