Mast tuning

[Vines]

Well, we finally rebuilt the masthead on C229 using the aluminum sandwich one of you guys pointed me to. Thanks for that. Now that the mast is back up we have used up all the threads on the turnbuckles and the stays still seem too loose. I admit we didn't really pay enough attention to them before we took it down but something just doesn't seem right. Anybody had this problem? Solution?

[Bill]

SS shrouds will stretch a bit, but this sounds like more. If you can't tighten the turnbuckles, you may need to cut the wire :eek:

[bill@ariel231]

Sounds like wire cutting time.

Two other options..

1. insert a plywood pad between the mast and mast step. This will raise the mast by the thickness of the plywood pad you insert. If you are 3/8th to 1/2 inch short this might work. it a short term fix but it will get you going.

2. Commander #35 is being parted out. she includes a mast. You might get the whole mast or just the mast head from her. I believe the early pearson 26 also shares our mast head casting. These masts also show up on ebay.

good luck
bill

Question.. are all of the shrouds short or just a couple??

[Vines]

I really don't want to have to cut the shrouds. I just can't figure out why they appear to be too short, though. There's only 2 of the 7 that aren't bottomed out. I wouldn't mind leaving all of them like they are but the mast is bowing to starboard in the middle. Or, maybe the top of the mast is bending to port. I can't tighten the upper starboard shroud because I have no more threads on the turnbuckle. I could tighten the forward port shroud but that turnbuckle is also bottomed out. Just how tight should the shrouds be? These have never been like piano wire like some of the racing boats around me. And I wouldn't mind leaving them like they are if, again, the mast were straight. I had considered using some of the 1/4" aluminum as a shim to put under the mast step. Just how high can I raise it and still feel like it's not going to come loose at the bottom?
You mentioned that was just a temporary fix anyway, huh?

[Bill]

You also might consider hiring a rigger to check out things. If you did not replace the wires yourself, then maybe it's time. Might be cracks in the sweages or broken stands somewhere :eek:

Manual has detailed directions on setting tension.

[bill@ariel231]

The other scenario here is that the mast step has dropped. I had this sort of problem when the core under the mast step failed a couple years after my initial deck re-core. Since I had replaced the beam under the mast step, the drop in A-231 was a total of 3/8th inch. The failure presented itself as a dished area in the deck around the mast step.

If the shrouds are good and the chain plates have not moved (a possibility for all but the forestay). Then a plywood pad the same dimensions as the existing mast step can raise the mast 1/4 to 1/2 inch. I say this is a temporary solution if the failure mode is like mine (e.g. good beam under the mast and a squashed deck. if the beam is compressed stop! it's time to replace the beam). If you bed the plywood shim in '5200 it won't move till you grind it off.

As far as debugging this problem I'd start at the bottom and work up:

1. is the mast beam sound?
2. is there any sign of deck movement and headliner distortion on the interior below the mast step?
3. is the mast step the right thickness? The original should be 1" thick fwd/centerline tapering to 13/16" aft/centerline(the original mast step is/was plywood. are any layers missing)?
4. is deck dished in the area of the mast step?
5. are the chain plates in order? any sign of movement on the interior bulkheads or at the deck?
6. are all of the shrouds sound? any cracks in the swages?

If none of these issues have occurred, then I'm with moderator Bill. It may be time for some professional consultation ...

[mbd]

Perhaps a couple of other possibilities: Is your rebuilt masthead the same dimensions as the original? (shorter maybe?) Also, pretty obvious, are there any kinks in the rigging wire - I suppose that would make things shorter though...

[Ed Ekers]

I can't tighten the upper starboard shroud because I have no more threads on the turnbuckle. I could tighten the forward port shroud but that turnbuckle is also bottomed out.

Is the mast centered?

[SkipperJer]

If you did not replace the shrouds it sure sounds like there is either a re-assembly glitch (I've had sooooo many of those) or something moved during all the work you've been doing.

Funny things happen when those strong, old attachment points finally get to breathe after years of holding on tight. I had no trouble with my chain plates until the second time I took my mast down. While tuning the shrouds putting it back together one of the chainplates gave way. There had been far more strain on it when I sailed in a stiff breeze three months before than when I was bringing things up to tension. All of the turnbuckles were short of where they were. I'd pay close attention to the deck below the mast step and/or the strongback. If they have moved down, there's your slack. It won't be much.

It's worth finding someone with a tension gauge and using the procedure in the manual. My tendency is to want things way too tight. From what you say about the shape of your mast you may simply be far too tight already.

[bill@ariel231]

You might also check that the lower shrouds are not swapped. The foward pair are shorter than the aft pair (i've been there-done that).

[SkipperJer]

I forgot about that one. I've done that too. It had me stumped for quite a while. Like I said, soooooo many re-assembly glitches.

[Vines]

The only thing we did was take the mast down and put the mast back up and now the stays are too long. The stays aren't swapped, the mast step hasn't changed thickness, the connections at the deck seem very secure. I just can't figure out what just taking down the mast could have changed here. I have looked at everything you guys have mentioned. I am about to resort to cutting wire. Have any of you used those swageless eyes on your shrouds. You can tell I'm trying to fix this without taking the mast back down, huh? How do I get an owner's manual for the Commander? Is it online somewhere? Are the shroud tension settings online somewhere? I really appreciate all of the suggestions from you salty dogs. _/) _/)_/) _/)

[Vines]

Another question: what size are the wires on the shrouds? I want to be sure and get the correct size swage, whatever kind I end up ordering. I assume they haven't been swapped out and I assume the Ariel and Commander use the same size. Thanks for your help.

[joe]

What about using shorter turnbuckles?? As far as tuning goes, one of the smartest purchases I've made in the past was Brion Toss's DVD "Tuning your rig".

[Vines]

I have considered shorter turnbuckles and have already started my search. Actually I wouldn't mind cutting the wire if one of you says you have had a good experience with the swageless fittings. The pictures make it look so easy I am just wondered if it is really that easy. Someone before me has swapped out the turnbuckles on this boat and I noticed yesterday they aren't all the same length. I put the shorter ones where I needed shorter ones and that helped a lot. So, I'm pretty close. I will look for the DVD, thanks for the tip. I still would like to know the size of the wires.