Replacing Atomic 4

[Janice Collins]

Has anyone replaced the Atomic 4 with a 1 cylinder Yenmar? This is something I'm considering and any input would be appreciated.

:cool:

[Mike Goodwin]

Janice,
I have not put a Yanmar in an Ariel , but in several other boats (about 8 ).
I assure you there will be a lot of cursing during the installation unless the atomic 4 gear is still there .
1st , the 1 cylinder is not a replacement for the Atomic 4 , the 2 cylinder is however and runs much smoother .
I had to use very expensive mounts to calm the single cylinder down and at certain RPM's it was still unbearable , harmonics are a big factor .
It is a good motor , just not for the Ariel.
I had a 1 cylinder in a 5500lb 27' boat and it was not enough except the calmest of times . Replaced it with a 2 cylinder 18hp and it was just right .
At normal rpm's the 1 cyl does not generate much HP , at wide open it gets close to 8 or 9 . The twin at half throttle is giving 8 hp at least . The engine will be much more reliable when not run so hard as the single would be and last much longer .
I just gave away a bobtail Yanmar twin that I was going to put in my Ariel .
I went for the 4 stroke outboard in the well .

Mike G

[Dave]

I looked into the Yanmar 2GM. Wouldn't even consider the 1 -- partly because the 2 has freshwater cooling and a saltwater jacket: longer lasting engine in salt water. I was also told that I wouldn't be able to tolerate the thumping and the low hp of the 1.
But, I too am sticking with the outboard.

Mike -- what's the verdict on 6 hp 4 cycle? Is it enough to power the boat through moderate current?

[Mike Goodwin]

With the lower pitched prop it is fine , stock prop is for higher speed . 55lbs is hard to beat too !

[Brent]

Mike,

What make of outboard are you using and did it require any modification to the well?

Brent

[Janice Collins]

Mike, so you suggest the 2 cylinder Yanmar as a good replacement??

I'm interested in what other inboards Ariel owners have installed. What has worked well?

[Mike Goodwin]

I have the Nissan /Mercury /Tohatsu 6hp -4 stroke long shaft with alternator .
Fits right in the well , no sweat .

Janice , the Yanmar is the easiest and cheapest when all is done . Stay away from Volvo , parts will break you . There used to be a good Westerbeake , but I cannot find them or parts anymore . Avoid Fairymann like the plague .
Sabb is good , but $$$$$$ and parts are scarce in some parts .
Universal used to have a replacement for the A-4 .
Good luck .
BTW , I was going to cut out the cockpit to install the diesel . It had damage anyway , but the install would have gone 50% faster at least ,with rapid access to the aft end & shaft alignment would have been a breeze .

[Bill]

From the last in-the-water boat show: Universal Motors lives - as a Westerbeke subsidiary. It sells a Diesel replacement for the Atomic 4 who's specifications indicate an exact fit replacement (20 hp is the minimum). The 20 hp weighs 241 pounds (with transmission) www.westerbeke.com or 508-884-9688 to locate a nearby distributor.

Beta Marine uses a Kubota diesel as the basis for its Atomic 4 replacement. They offer 13.5 hp as well as 20 hp, and were less expensive than the Westerbeke Universals. The 13.5 hp model weighs only 190 pounds with the transmission. I have only have a dealer contact in San Diego 619-226-2622.

[Bill]

Here is part of a letter we printed in the newsletter last year:

Rebuilding or "replacing in kind" remains a practical, economical solution for tired A4s. Rebuildable engines are found in many boatyards, and rebuilt A4s are available "off the shelf" from Moyer Marine (717-564-5748, http://www.moyermarine.com/); Atomic Four Engine Service (604-868-6646,http://www3.telus.net/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/); and Old Lyme Marina (860-434-3068, http://www.oldlymemarina.com/)

Two very active on-line discussion groups (www.sailnet.com/ under "community/email," and on AOL under keyword "sailing") provide A4 owners with a wealth of information about parts and maintenance.

[commanderpete]

New diesel?

Lord knows, I've never let logic interfere with buying new stuff for the boat. But, this one seems hard to justify.

After you spend $ 6000+ installing a new diesel, the boat will be worth what? $ 6,500?

If I remember correctly, you've got a perfectly good Yamaha 9.9 hanging off the stern. You can install a remote start/ throttle/ shift control box and run it from the cockpit ($ 150 + cables).

Spend the rest on Rum and Lotto tickets.

No....wait.....that's what I would do.........nevermind

[Bill]

Only where the wind does not blow
Should engines off the transom go

[Janice Collins]

A lot of opinions out there on the subject and I appreciate them all.

1. Old Atomic 4 is long gone .

2. Yes I have a very reliable Yamaha 9.9 long shaft hanging off the transom. However, it is too heavy for me to tilt!!! I can raise and lower it, but I can't tilt it out of the water. The marine growth is extremely active here, so letting it hang in the water all the time is out of the question.

I've toyed with switching to a smaller outboard, never having used even a quarter of the power of that engine. I was considering a 6 or an 8hp Yamaha. But, to tell you the truth, I never felt totally comfortable with it on the transom, have a fear the transom might not be strong enough,

And ease of mind and security mean a lot......

This subject has been weighing on my mind far too long, I've been wavering back and forth....driving me nuts......

[Bill]

Price out having an ob well built in the lazarette and compare that to the cost of reinstalling an inboard. The 8hp 2-cycle Mercury's are light and with the (mentioned elsewhere) "power" prop have plenty of stuff for the Ariel. I believe these engines sell for under $1700 in long shaft configuration.

[Janice Collins]

Buying another boat isn't an option. I really love my boat.

What I want is a safe, easy method of power when I get in and out of a tight harbor or in one of those situations when I would need headway either in addition to a sail or when there are no wind and high seas

I agree it does seem extreme to buy a new inboard....

[Mike Goodwin]

Janice,
I have purchased good used Yanmars for under $2000 as low as $800 , they are out there .
I look for racers that are becoming crusers and want a bigger motor and dont care about the weight anymore .
You are just in a bad locale for shopping , from my experience with the islands . I would head down to Trinidad , you will get a better deal there and the locals are mechanical wizards .
If you could ever find my pal Nick Benacia he could fix you up , after he flirted for all he's worth . He lives in the Petit-Valley area . Ask around the boat yards , his brother Bunnie Benacia is a well known electrical contractor and may be easier to find.

[Bill]

IHMO, first do your homework. Start by asking people with knowledge, for example: Moyer Marine (717-564-5748, http://www.moyermarine.com/); Atomic Four Engine Service (604-868-6646,http://www3.telus.net/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/); or Old Lyme Marina (860-434-3068, http://www.oldlymemarina.com/) They all have Web sites.

And then post questions at those A-4 on-line discussion groups (www.sailnet.com/ under "community/email," and on AOL under keyword "sailing") provide A4 owners with a wealth of information about parts and maintenance.

[glissando]

I removed the A4 from my Triton and, after a bad experience with a supposedly rebuilt Yanmar SB12, repowered with a spanking new Yanmar 2GM20F last year. This advice is based on my experience, and represents my opinions.

Here are three questions that I think you should ask yourself before heading down any repower road, in order:

1. Do you want an inboard engine, or would the outboard be fine for you if you were more comfortable with its installation? If so, look into beefing up the transom if you're worried, or look into building an outboard well.

2. Do you have existing foundation, tankage, and shafting from your old Atomic 4? If so, it may make sense to stick with the engine that will be a perfect match to your existing hardware--the A4. Going to diesel brings up tankage issues, fuel system, and prop/shafting issues. But if you don't want an A4, this point is moot anyway.

3. Or do you really just want a reliable diesel, regardless of the expense and complications? If so, then get it. It's a big job, but the end result can be nice.

If you ask a bunch of A4 people about engines, they'll recommend the A4 as the way to go. If you ask a bunch of diesel people about engines, they'll recommend the diesel as the way to go. And if you ask a bunch of outboard people about engines, they'll recommend an outboard as the way to go. The only thing that will work for you is what works for you. (Thanks, Yogi...)

The used diesel route should be approached with GREAT CARE and hesitation. New diesels are smoother, quieter, and efficient. They are smoke-free and, with some soundproofing in the engine room, nearly as quiet as an A4. Old diesels are smoky, noisy, full of vibration...in short, you'd be better off with a rebuilt A4 than some old rebuilt diesel. In my opinion, with a diesel--go new or go gas. (Been there, done that...)

So, keeping that in mind, here are some of the things you may have to deal with if you convert to an inboard engine, depending on whether or not you have remains of the old engine installation:

1. You may need to design and build new engine foundations. If you have the old A4 beds, then repowering with an A4 could make sense--but then so could using one of the diesel so-called "drop in replacements" for the A4 (all this means is that the mounting centers are roughly equivalent to the narrow mounts on the A4...nothing more.) Older diesels will probably have clearance and mounting issues, and the new Yanmar diesels are also not directly compatible with A4 mounting centers. This is not insurmountable, but is something to knoe up front.

2. What about your tankage and shafting? Do you have any existing stuff, or are you starting from scratch? If you have to install a new fuel system, shaft, prop, etc., the argument for sticking with your first choice--diesel--makes more sense.

3. Is the bottom line the most important thing, or are you willing to spend what it takes to do ANY engine installation correctly? Would a new diesel make you happier with your boat? If so, then cost should not be the issue. There's little question that the cost of a new diesel exceeds the cost of any other repower route you might take. But if you're prepared for the cost, then it becomes a non-issue.

4. A Yanmar 2GM20F, which will not fit directly on the old A4 beds (if you have them) is a good engine (18HP), but will cost you about $6300 plus installation, shafting, tankage, etc. If you have to pay someone to do all this work, you could be looking at 10K. Materials alone to complete the job, if you do it all with free labor, will still amount to a total investment of 7K or so. Repowering is labor-intensive. Do it yourself and save a bundle. I have not heard great things about the 1GM10, and forget about raw water cooling--not an option. Go fresh, period.

If it's worth this much to you to have the diesel, then by all means go for it. Forget about getting your money out later, or resale, or any of that stuff...it is not a factor in your decision as to what engine situation makes you the happiest and most comfortable. If you're not selling the boat in the foreseeable future, who cares if you won't get your money out? This decision is strictly about what makes the boat the best it can be for YOU, at this exact point in time.

The point of all this is that there's no reaon not to install a diesel if it's what you want. There are also no insurmountable installation issues that I'm aware of, although you may need to modify some cabinetry for the diesel to fit (most diesels are taller than the A4, which can cause some issues).

I won't tell you to go with a diesel, or an A4, or whatever. Like I said, that's a decision only you can make. But I thought some of these issues might be of assistance as you think about what to do.

Tim

[Mike Goodwin]

Hey Tim,
One of the used Yanmars I got for $2000 was a 2GM and did not smoke or use a drop of oil . All it needed was a panel and alternator ( owner kept both ).

[glissando]

Mike,

Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that ALL used or rebuilt diesels are bad...just that anyone considering one should be very careful in their selection and make sure it is all it is cracked up to be.

Sometimes you get lucky with an old one.

Mine sucked.

Tim

[Janice Collins]

Thanks for all your opinions on the subject, gave me food for thought. Now I'm full and need a nap!!!

:)

[commanderpete]

Janice, I predict that a few years from now you're still going to be using the outboard and dreaming of a diesel.

The Yamaha has given you years of faithful service. The transom of the boat will not fall off.

Most of us with an outboard well leave the engine in the water all the time. My ten year old Yamaha is very happy that way and shows almost no corrosion.

I use the clear spray anti-fouling paint. Probably the nastiest, most evil chemicals I've ever used (and costs $ 25 a can). Be very careful if you use this stuff.

After a few months, the lower part of the engine gets a little furry. No big deal. Brush it off.

To tilt the engine, try wrapping a line under and around the back of the powerhead. Give the line a pull. The engine is probably stiff and needs to be worked. If necessary, winch the line a little. But, go easy. If the cover pops off and falls in the water....well....its not my fault (just kidding, the pull handle would prevent that).

[Janice Collins]

Peter, For now, I'm going to try your idea of just keeping the outboard in the water in the highest position. I can see my honey shaking his head at the idea of it dragging in the water while I'm sailing, but ......
I had ordered an outboard motor tilter, It arrived but was way too long for the outboard. It advertised as "adjustable"....it is but I have to cut it down and drill the holes.

l'll spray the shaft first with the anti foul paint and see ..anything is better than my present situation. Though the marine growth is pretty scarey down here........ two weeks after I cleaned the bottom and there was enough growth that a baby lobster made it it's home. When I scraped it off, it tried to make me it's home.

[Janice Collins]

Was told tonight that a 3 cylinder Yanmar will be up fior sale for $1500. With installation.. . around $3000.

Could this be a suitable choice?

Just when I stopped thinking aboiut this whole to do......

[Mike Goodwin]

That is a lot more motor than you need, is it the 3GM Yanmar , the 2 is a better fit. The 3 can push a 35' boat with ease . The price is good even with the install included . Does that price include fuel tank and a good Racor filter/separator ? How about the prop & shaft?
Make sure that is a 'turn key ' deal ! The little stuff can add up fast to another $500 .

[Janice Collins]

Is the 3 cyl. a lot bigger than a 2? Why did you ask if it was a 3GM?

[Mike Goodwin]

The 'Gm' series all use the same size pistons and heads , like stacking oatmeal boxes alongside each other in a row , so it will be bigger by the diameter of the cylinder housing or head .
If you knew which it was , I could get weights and dimensions which could be compared against the 2 and the Atomic 4 . It could negate the sink & step if it is much longer . I have a marina neighbor that has one in his 35' , so I can actually put hands on ( I have already worked on his before ) .
It is a very good motor , but could be swatting a fly with a sledge hammer , not good , especially if its sitting on your gelcoat .

Mike G

[Janice Collins]

If it needs to negate the sink and step, I don't want it. If it can't comfortably fit in the the boat, I don't want it . I could find out more info. In fact, it is being salvaged from a boat I know somewhat. It is on old wooden Tahitian Ketch, one Tom and I were considering buying a long time ago. I know the previous owner who put it in...he has moved to Germany and left the boat for years rotting . He had plans of sailing her back to Germany, that's why he put this engine in.
In the meantime, I'm heading out to Wayward Star.... going to saw that Motor Tilter down to size, and NOW, the pull cord on the ob won't budge.....Two times in one week!!!!

Never sawed a piece of metal in my liife. I hope it goes better than my recent epoxy repair...........:cool: