Headliner

[Brent]

The headliner on #66 has been drilled and re-drilled many times for inside handrails & such, not to mention the water stains and discoloring.

I'm going to get new handrails, but they may match the originals, so mounting them will probably include sealing the original holes w/epoxy. But what about the inside holes?

What have you done to deal with this?

Has anyone ever removed the headliner in the Ariel's main cabin? I'm wondering if it might be easier to rip it out and replace it with a nice cedar ceiling.

What about access to the wires for the running lights?

Brent

[Mike Goodwin]

I'm in the process of filling and sealing about 70 or 80 holes in the headliner in #45 , just use polyester filler .
I think a bright wood overhead would be too much , but I hate all teak interiors with no paint , prefer wood accents and trim . It would be easy enough to do , but why ?
Boats dont need to look nautical , like some restaurants do , because they are nautical, so don't get too cutesy and clever or you will end up with something like that abortion of an Ariel that had the deck raised , etc., etc.
Remember the KISS and 'if it ain't broke , don't fix it' rules , especially on small boats .
Have you thought of handrails on the inside matching the ones topsides , just drill , thru-bolt and plug both sets .

[Tony G]

Brent
Epoxy and paint are probably the easiest and quickest route to a uniform headliner (sans holes). I like the idea of a cedar headliner and I've toyed with the idea myself for #113. It's hard to say if the cabin will seem too small and dark or if it will become a little more cozy and warm. The big question would be is your headliner delaminated from the outside shell? That fiberglass-core-fiberglass 'sandwich' integrity is important for strength and although I'm sure there are some ariels out there sailing around with delaminated cabintops if you're doing the work you might as well do it right. Maybe one of the Commander owners would know if their cabin tops have a heavier laminate schedule than the Ariels because they lack the headliner. If not, and the laminate schedules are the same, maybe some well tabed firring (?) strips would be all the support needed for the exterior shell. I'll be watching to see what you do and when you do post lots of pictures!

P.S. for S. Airing- if and when I can figure out how to post pics you can bet I will.

[Dave]

We have just finished the interior of our boat. We decided to remove the headliner: stained and ugly. Condensation is not much of a problem here so we painted the top. In fact, we painted the overhead and every vertical wall with Brightside Hatteras Off White. Previous owner had installed beautiful teak backs to the settee berths and trimmed out the shelving with oval openings, and great trim elsewhere -- nice work. So, we have chosen to go with lots of white on the other surfaces, trimmed with plenty of oiled teak, and green cushions and back rests. Simple and attractive -- and bright. The interior seems 10 percent bigger. I'd be wary of the oppressive feeling of a dark overhead on such a small boat.

We do not miss the headliner at all. Warning! it's a pain to remove all the adhesive, at least is was in our case.

[Tony G]

Dave
How much of the headliner did you remove? Just the overhead or did you take out the aft ceiling/bulkhead lining-er- whatever you call it! Number 113 has significant delamination on the starboard side there and alot of what we call 'woobees' along the main cabin headliner where there is delamination. Still undecided about what to do but I think a recore is in order. So I'm interested in what you have done and found as a result of the changes made.

[Brent]

OK, now I'm confused; I thought the headliner was a separate part in the main cabin. It has been my understanding that the fiberglass-core-fiberglass sandwich did not include the headliner and that if the headliner was removed, you would see something like the forward cabin. Correct?

Dave, I too am interested in knowing how much of the headliner you removed. Some of it--like under the bridgedeck/over the galley--is really not a concern to me. If I were to remove part but not all...I'm wondering if that would make the job easier.

[Mike Goodwin]

Under the side decks there were 3 components on #45 ,1 deck & core ,2 glass backing for core and 3 cabinliner .
If you pull one of the big picture windows and look at the edge , you see two , cabinside and cabinliner , at least that was all #45 had .
In the FG boat manufacturing biz , typically in a boat the size and shape of the Ariel ;
You build a plug for the hull,
1)a plug for the deck (includes cabintop )and maybe cockpit ( have seen cockpits done seperately )
2)a plug for the cabinliner ,
3)plugs for the hatches and locker doors ,
4)plug for cabin-pan ( if there is one , none in Ariel )
The liner usually floats free except for marginal tabing , if it was totally bonded and structural , it would never be fair and pretty and would use too much resin .
Remember these are minimal wage laborers on a schedule of so many hulls per week .
Worked around the Columbia factory in the 60's .
You guys complain about the forepeak and Commander cabin roughness, you should see what is behind the now prevalent fabric liners on the mass produced boats of today done with chopper guns .
I have had to re-tro fit a few .
That's why if you see me at a boatshow , I'll be sticking my head in lockers looking at the back finish and layup , the Ariel is a very well build boat and by modern standards , regardless of finish , would be much higher in the price scale than when introduced in 1962 .
There is no chopper-gun-snot in our boats , it is all hand laid glass , mat and roving .

[Dave]

Brent,
When you say headliner, do you mean cabin liner? As Mike said, the cabin liner is fiberglass, gel coated on the interior to provide a nice interior finish. The headliner is a foam sound and heat insulator that can also cover a multitude of repairs, nuts, screw heads, etc -- it is glued to the cabin liner.
It's the headliner - the foam - that I removed. Are you thinking of removing the fiberglass cabin liner?? I hope not.
--Dave

[Tony G]

Sorry, I was wrong on two counts. I mistakenly called the cabin liner a headliner and thought the cabin liner was the inner skin. This may be good however. Mike, if the cabin liner is basically attached at the margins is the wavy cabin liner that I fret over not serious delamination of the cabin top after all? The cabin top seems rigid when I walk on it and doesn't 'flex' noticeably but it does make an occational creak or pop when I'm bouncing on it (and I only do this once a month to see if getting worse or if it's just my imagination, okay I do it twice a week). The decks never make these sounds- though I wonder if they would if they spanned the four feet the cabin top does. Is this just normal paranoia or should I cut it open and get started?:>

[Brent]

Dave,

I'm thinking of the cabin liner--there is no headliner (as per your definition) in #66.

Yes, I have actually considered removing it.

Aside from the stains, discoloration & holes, if I were to replace the existing trailer-style windows in the main cabin (also under consideration), I would obviously need to fiberglass over the existing openings in order to cut smaller openings for the new portlights.

Even if I could do this with the cabin liner in place, there is the issue of the existing openings in the cabin liner after said surgery is completed.

As I think of it, this is begining to sound like a LOT of work...but I still feel the need to think this through.

Thoughts?

Aside from the obvious cosmetic implications, are there any structural issues?

[Dave]

I'm no expert on boat construction. Based on observation, the cabin liner is first a cosmetic addition that provides a molded, gel coated interior (I don't think it's economically feasible to gel coat both sides of a molded component -- but I may be wrong). Second, it provides some addtional stiffness to the cabin top.
My opinion (for what it's worth):
I can't imagine removing the cabin liner. What you'll find underneath would be far worse than discoloration and holes; the cabin will be structurally weakened to some degree; and it would be a BIG job for little if any gain. Do the cosmetic repairs on the holes, sand it, fair it, and paint it.
What do others think? I'm no expert on boat construction.

[glissando]

Do the cosmetic repairs. Removing that thing would be a bear, and then what? You'd have some hellish-looking raw fiberglass with gobs of polyester putty all over it, probably. Plus, who knows how difficult it would actually be to remove? I wouldn't want to try.

The headliner (the molded thing) is a very lightweight structure and serves no structural purpose. But don't remove it! It can't be that bad. Filling the holes, sanding it, and painting it will make it better than new.

My Triton has the exact same type of liner in the salon, and it was in pretty poor shape when I got the boat--lots of holes and other flaws. I filled the holes with thickened epoxy, sanded and faired, and painted with Brightside--a coat of primer and two coats of white on top. It looks great. You could use almost any paint here, but stick with something bright.

Tim

[S.Airing]

Hey Tony G,what happened to the pictures you promised?

[Tony G]

Okay, Steve I've about an hour to kill let's see if I can figure this out.

[Tony G]

Bet you all wish you had one of those! How about one of these?

[Tony G]

Yikes! And for one last horror tonight, how about a set of these... as you can see I have alot of work to do yet. Thanks to other photos post here and Tim's web site and others I have been inspired to do something...well let's just say something.

[S.Airing]

I assume those long bolts are for your hatch hinges,I would cut thoses bad boys off before someone bust their head open on them.I know my head would find them every time I was up there.I can feel it from here.Cool companion way doors.

[Tony G]

Yeah, you're right they are and they should be! There's another set on the port cabinliner for an old SouthCoast winch. They all gotta' go. Right now I'm about the only person that goes on board and I very aware they are there(read missing scalp). We've attached a photo of the main'woobee' in the cabin liner. It can be flexed up a good half inch, maybe more, and I'm wondering if anyone else has that much sag in their's.

P.S. prepare yourself for the damburst-I take pictures of EVERYTHING on #113!!

[Brent]

Tony,

Pictures are good!

Post more!

[Tony G]

Earlier, this month I believe, there was a thread that evolved into a discussion about port frames and the possibility of some new ones being cast. Has anything new happened with that, Tim?

[Tony G]

Brent
If you want pictures I'll post pictures! Only don't look foor pics of me sailing because so far I've just been snapping pics of scabs, scars and scary stuff that needs fixing. It sort of frightens me that I've aquired SO MANY of these in my file. Friends think I've bitten off too much this time. Oh the sad doubters they are. I WILL NOT CONCEDE-I WILL ONE DAY SAIL THIS BOAT!! Okay, enough of that. This one doesn't look as bad as it really is.

[Tony G]

Shortly after bringing #113 home I left the forward ports and the main hatch open in an effort to rid her of that 'funky' been closed up tight all winter smell. When I was busy at work a rain shower moved through and this is where all the water went before it leaked out the rudder shoe. Yeah, and this is where I suspect it will come from if I don't fix that. (We're up to like five or six on the list aren't we? 'Haven't even scratched the surface!)