Re-bedding Hardware

[commanderpete]

Its not the perils of the sea that kills these boats. Its deck core rot.

Even serious deck rot may not make the boat unseaworthy, only unmarketable. The boat sits unsold and rots away. Sometimes a savior comes along. But, more often than not, the boat goes to the wrecker.

Of course every boat this old will have some rot somewhere. The trick is to find and arrest the problem before radical surgery is required.

A dripping screw or rusted nut is a sure sign of a leak. If you wait until the deck gets mushy, the damage is already done.

I decided to rebed much of my deck hardware. I removed the fittings and screws and put them in individual ziplock bags with labels. Then I took one of each and taped them to a piece of cardboard, noting the location, size and number.

[commanderpete]

I used a bent nail to rout out the balsa core at each hole. Then I cleaned up the inside of the hole with a dental pick. I taped the bottom of the holes and injected thinned epoxy into the holes with a syringe. After that drained and dried, I injected epoxy thickened with silica into the holes.

Then it came time to try and locate all the different fasteners. You end up with a bewildering array of machine and wood screws of different sizes and lengths. Different sizes of flat and finish washers, hex nuts, lock nuts, cap nuts etc. Some of the sizes are unusual and hard to find.

[commanderpete]

That's most of them. I'm still scrambling around trying to find some, and ordering the ones I forgot to buy.

You could re-use the old screws, but I don't reccommend it. When you remove a screw, you strip it to one degree or another. The threads of the screws are all gunked up too. If you put it back in, the next time you try to remove it you may have a problem. A stripped and frozen screw is a nightmare, causing bloody knuckles and much cursing.

To bed the fittings, I clean up the bottom first. Then drill out holes through the epoxy plugs in the deck. Smear some sealant on the bottom of the fittings. I also goober up the threads of the screws with sealant. Tighten up the fittings until the sealant just starts to squeeze out at the base. Wait a day. Then hold a screwdriver at the top of the screw and tighten the nut from the bottom. (You dont want the screw to turn and break the seal). This should create a watertight gasket.

Care must be taken to do it right, or you can turn a dry hole into a leaky one.

Well, that's what I've been doing. Not a glamorous job. The boat looks the same when you finished as when you started. But, I think its an ounce of prevention well spent.

[commanderpete]

I've never read anything on the subject, but I think it takes a long time for water to migrate through end grain balsa.

Here is an illustration I found on bedding hardware. Wood is not the preferred choice for a backing plate, but its better than nothing. On high load locations, you can't just use fender washers. The underside of the deck will get crushed and deformed.

[S.Airing]

Commanderpete,take a break and have a piece of chicken and a beer.Your stressing me out.

[S.Airing]

Commanderpete,when I redid Sirocco way back when ,I replaced all fasteners from flat tip to philips head .Must of cost me 500.00 bucks. Just wait untill you replace the turnbuckels,they arent cheap.

[commanderpete]

It can add up. You can't buy in bulk because you only need between 2 and 24 of each screw. You want to buy extras, although you're trying to keep the cost down.

My new bronze chainplate bolts were $ 4 each.

For the teak and mahogany trim, I went for the silicon bronze wood screws with slotted heads. I think it looks better. Pricey though.

Everything else was stainless phillips.

Jamestown Distributors had the largest selection

[Dave]

I just finished this odious job -- did as Pete described. I hate leaks! I hate soggy core! But the work has been worth it for the peace of mind.
Add to Pete's comments the fact that the undercut resin plug creates (in my case) a 1 and 1/2 inch solid, thickened resin plug that helps avoid gelcoat cracking when you tighten the fasteners. Nothing's bullet-proof, but this is as close as it gets.

[Theis]

You guys missed the best part of it. Think of the pleasure of falling asleep on the main cabin bunk after one final brandy as a night cap. It was a beautiful night after a beautiful sail and you are really ready to call it a day moments before the new day begins.

You waken to the gentle pitter pat of a gentle friendly rain on the cabin top and wet pajamas about your middle area. Gropping around in the dark for a flashlight, your patience and plesant disposition long gone, you find that one of the cabin hand rails, or a cam cleat or a window is drip, drip, dripping without any let up. In exasperation, you take your scrub bucket out and put it in your lap as you go to sleep to the gentle pitter pat of the raindrops hitting the bucket gently nested where you wish there could have been a dry blanket.

Isn't sailing fun? But let's get down to where the rubber hits the foad - the caulking. Do not use polyeurothane (5200) for calking. Use sulfate (3M 101 or its Boatlife equivalent) and Silicone for the windows. You goof up there and that pleasant night described above, or worse, could be coming your way. Good luck.

[Dave]

Here's my experience with caulking and bedding compounds:
I've use LifeCaulk (Boat Life) a lot. What I don't like about it is that it discolors very easily on a painted deck -- turns really nasty colors. The label says that it's paintable; maybe there is something that dries on and adheres to the stuff, but I haven't found it. Boat Life has never responded to phone calls and emails asking WHAT paint works with LifeCaulk.
So, I use it less often.
For bedding, I put the hardware in place, outline it with pencil, mask off the pencil line, put 4200 on the deck surface, a dab or two under the head of each fastener, have someone hold the head in place to preserve the seal (as Pete mentioned), and tighten it. 4200 doesn't have the same flexibilty as LifeCaulk, so I don't worry about letting the stuff stiffen up before the final bolt tightening.
I'm banking on the fact the 4200 isn't as adhesive as 5200 -- that when the day comes, I won't have to remove the boat from the hardware.
For caulking -- well, I feel stuck. Silicone is fine for windows, but the stuff is weird about when and where it chooses to stick and unstick; LifeCaulk won't paint, but will discolor; 4200 is too permanent and downright messy to work with -- but I think it's my new best friend.

[Theis]

I've had good luck with 3M 101 Sulfite (formerly Thiokol). It is easy, but messy, to take off before it dries (use turpentine/mineral spirits), and not difficult to rub off places where it is not meant to be when dry.

The problem I have with Boatlife products is that they are combination products and I really don't know what I am putting on.

As for the 5200 polyurethane products, they do take the gel coat off when hardware is removed or replaced - first hand experience. The Silicone products can not be painted over, and, I am told, where it has dripped, even if cleaned off, still can not be painted over. Bad news. However, if you mask off the area, silicone might be the answer. It is very waterproof, cheap, and pulls off easily when replacing fittings or resetting them (However, you can not put a second coat on). Otherwise, I would suggest you try the 3M products (I do not own stock in the company or work for them).

The problems you reference may be because Boatlife products are combinations - so, for example, you have the problems with silicone and sulfite- or with silicone and polyurethane (whatever the mixtures are). I don't know.

[Mike Goodwin]

There is a product that releases 5200 or Sikaflex , I have not used it but know people who have .
They say it works . West Marine and BoatersWorld carry it .
I use a polyurethane product made by OSI / PL , called Pl Premium Concrete and Masonry sealer/adhesive . It is about 1/3 the cost of 5200 or Sika and seems to do just as good a job . I've been using it for about 4 years now & you can buy it at Home Dumpo .
The other product in the photo is like Liquid Nails , but works and is 10 times stronger .

[commanderpete]

I wonder if someone makes a cheaper polysulfide.

Dave, can you tell us about the oversized hole method? Its probably a more sure technique.

I injected the thickened epoxy into the existing holes. But, you can't really tell how far the epoxy penetrates into the cavity where the balsa was.

When I drilled through the plugs to fit the screws, a few of the plugs had gaps and needed another injection.

As for sealant, I've tried a little of everything for different applications. Life Caulk in white, brown and liquid varieties. Silkafex, West Multi-caulk, silicone and 4200.

To keep all the various sealants organized, I purchased a handy sealant dispenser pack (pictured below). The dispenser pack was kind of expensive, but it came with six free beers.

[commanderpete]

In the foreground is the wrench I use the most. His name is "Junior."

I was using the large tubes of sealant. But, except for the rubrails, I wasn't using that much. I ended up letting alot of it go bad in the tube. Its also a little messier with the caulk gun.

Of course, if you squeeze the small tubes too hard, the tube explodes out the back and into your hand.

Any way you look at it, its a messy job. How this stuff ends up on the bottom of my shoe, I'll never know.

[Mike Goodwin]

Pete,

I drill 5/8" holes, fill with epoxy, then drill a 1/4" hole in the middle of that .

[Dave]

My technique is to drill 1/2" hole straight thru the deck. Then I have an allen wrench that I've ground the short end down to a beveled stub about 1/4" long. I put the long end of the allen wrench in a drill chuck, turn it on, and use the sharpened end to cut out the balsa 1/4" in all around the hole. This creates an undercut that widens the resin plug and holds it firmly in place. Vacuum out the undercut.
Tape the hole on the inside and fill the hole and the undercut with thickened epoxy (I use West System with 406 filler) -- be sure it's just thin enough to flow into the undercuts (though you can force it in with a small tool).
When the epoxy has kicked and cured I remove the tape, and drill a small pilot hole from the underside half way through, then a pilot from the top till I feel the first pilot -- almost every time, I'm straight through the center of the resin. Then larger bits till you get to the size you need. It's bullet proof and any leaks are harmless to the core.

[commanderpete]

Here's an old thread.

I changed my mind about how to bed hardware.

I don't use the bent nail/allen key method for removing the core. I think its much faster to use the overdrill method Mike mentioned. Just drill a big hole, fill it with thickened epoxy, and drill through the epoxy plug for the fastner.

When injecting the epoxy, I don't try to top off the epoxy in the hole. Instead, I'll let a shallow dish form at the top of the hole. This provides for a nice pool of sealant around the fastner that can't get squeezed out.

I don't use the "gasket" method anymore. That's where you come back to tighten up the fastner after the
sealant has partially cured. It sounds good in theory. But, I found its nearly impossible to tighten the fastner without having it move slightly, which would break any seal.

With the overdrill method you just tighten up the fastner. Done, finished.

I buy mostly from Bolt Depot.

http://www.boltdepot.com/

I got tired of wasting time sorting through all my screws. Dozens of different types of screws, nuts and washers. Bought ten of these

http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?cc=32&cs=120&cm=57

Somebody probably sells them cheaper

[mbd]

Holy Cow Peter! I could be in trouble... :o

[tha3rdman]

'bout the solo over drill method mentioned above I have a problem with said method. If you drill and then remove core it is a pain in the keester to get a good section of core removed 'round the entire circumfrence.

However if you just over drill and fill iin there is nothing holding the "plug" of filler in the hole and chances are it will crack around the circumfrence and leak (unless you scarf the area and lay some glass down)

My method (The one which I used on 97), I belive i read on here, I drilled a 5/8 hole (maybe it was 1/2) then allen keyed the core out, This leaves the filled something to hold onto, especialy when 90% of your hardware will recieve some sort of pulling force, and with filled tucked in behind the top skin, I would imagine it's less likely to crack.

My 2 cents

[ebb]

2cents more.
Second on the 1/4" undercut with the altered allen key. And a steady hand. Whomever invented the method did a remarkable service for the balsa core deck crowd. It is tedious but there is imco no better way. With our boats, with decades of unprotected thrudeck holes, better hope that there is solid balsa in there where the old fasteners were! Sometimes it seems a little too easy to do the cleanout. You may have to dental pik out some more.

Let's hope it's not a preview of real deck problems. May have to dry the hole with a heat gun if you use normal epoxy.

I prime the hole using an acid brush with plain epoxy. It may also be good to use the brush to load the indent with the thickened stuff. Poke it in. [Did this with the chainplate deck holes which had some tuna mush in them. But then decided to holesaw a disk out of the top skin at each location. Did not go all the way thru. At least it was easier to access the core that way. Epoxied the skin disks back it.]

Also, don't you think it's important to oversize the backup plate? If you drill oversize and don't evacuate between the skins, then you better glue in the backup plates. 338's original Pearson plates were disks and squares of fiberglass, some with gelcoat on them! - but undersized.

[commanderpete]

I decided not to oversize the backing plates for the bow pulpit. There comes a time when you end up bumping into something, and I didn't want the installation to be too rigid.

Anyway, re-bedding hardware is an important project on any boat, but most people don't do it. I've probably done 120+ holes and I'm still not finished.

Anybody have a source for cheap syringes? I've been getting the whopping big 40 and 60cc syringes from a medical supply house for about $.75 each. But, they don't have the nice tapered tip like this

[ebb]

C'pete,
TAP Plastics has 2oz syringes with a taper tip. But the tip doesn't get as narrow as the small ones. The larger syringes seem to have got expensive since I got em last: $3.10. TAP is not a discount store - might look in places like Harbor Freight, or other glass, marine or aircraft catalogers.

On the other hand these are crossovers from some maybe medical supply. They are well made, sterile, the plunger rubber fits perfect and doesn't leak, there are graduations on the containor, there's a cap. I use the 2oz for thickened epoxy. But it works with liquid as well. (338 had her keelvoid filled this way, 5 gallons worth. You can reload the syringe by dipping the the tip and pulling back on the plunger. Thickened epoxy has to be loaded thru the top. Messy.)

When you need em you need em. It is hard to toss 3 bucks. Can clean them, but there's time and effort and solvent (which the syringes survive) and towels and so forth. Could toss one less microbrew and call it even...

[Mike Goodwin]

I get mine from my vet , they have the ones with the curved tip too.

[commanderpete]

Might be called a piston type irrigation syringe, like this

http://www.vitalitymedical.com/VitalityMedical.storefront/EN/Product/KND67000?AID=10273944&PID=606239&SID=gtm--340-KND67000

[ebb]

Fantastic price! Have to restrain myself from ordering a box. How much more injecting of epoxy is there to do in this life? Basting birds?

Now.
Has anybody got a great (foolproof) method of laying out a bead of thickened epoxy to create a fillet? Or is it still: use a ziplock bag with a corner cut off?

[Mike Goodwin]

According to my vet, the ones I get are for expressing the anal glands of dogs , so there are things worse than epoxy to work with !

[ebb]

Hey Mike, Briefly looked into your four legged friend:

Likes the water.
Intelligent, often smarter than the owner.
Loyal, gets along with other dogs and cats.
NON-SHEDDING, hypo-allergenic, medium sized.
Makes a good watch dog.
And inho, very good to look at, well proportioned.
Somebody you'd like to know and talk with.

Sounds like the PWD HAS to be the companion of choice for sailors
with an active lifestyle.

[c_amos]

I have overdrilled / filled all the holes in the deck, and have a third option to offer. I started out overdrilling like Mike suggests, but then started using a 5/8 paddle bit to drill through the top layer of glass, and core... but stopping short of the second layer. It is then easy to chip the surrounding core back about 1/4" (so the thickened epoxy tucks under the top layer of skin, and you have good access to get the chips out.

Ebb said;

Also, don't you think it's important to oversize the backup plate? If you drill oversize and don't evacuate between the skins, then you better glue in the backup plates. 338's original Pearson plates were disks and squares of fiberglass, some with gelcoat on them! - but undersized.

I agree. The backing plates I have made are 2x, and some times 3x the 'footprint' of whatever they are backing.

I also see a problem with the way some things are backed, like the stanchions. The stanchions on #226 are bolted through the deck right where the cabin liner meets the underside of the deck. Backing plates used will not touch anything but the thin strip of the cabin liner right down the center between the holes. I think this is why most every Ariel I see has gell coat crazing in this vulnerable area.

I have encountered the same problem with the backing plate for my bow roller. The underside of the deck is curved, and the inside bolts run right next to the raised strip down the center of the foredeck. The backing plate that I have made for this rides on the very edge of the 1/4" strip.

A friend of mine (the owner of #243) first suggested using polyester filler to distribute the stress behind a backing plate. The more I look at some of these problem areas, the more I see he is right.

So, my latest method of applying backing plates is;

Epoxy coated plywood, with rounded corners, 2x to 4x the size of the 'footprint' of the piece being mounted. THis is bedded in polyester filler, so it mates to the underside of the deck. Holes in the plywood are overdrilled slightly and filled with epoxy .
Then for the heavy hardware (so far the aft cleats, and soon the midships cleats) 3/8" aluminium plate backs the plywood, and the bolts get regular flat washers and lockwashers.

So far the backing plate for the bow roller has gotten the polyester filler to 'spread the load'. I did not use it for the stern cleats, as the underside of the deck was pretty much flat there. I plan to use it for the midships cleats, and will make new backing plates for the stanchions. I will extend both plates so that both the stanchions and the midships cleats are on a common backing plate.

I know this needs pictures, so I will get some soon.

Some of this may make more sense if you look at Deck hardware plan thread. (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=901)

______________________________

Now, I know some will ask why I want to put the plywood between the deck and the 3/8" aluminum backing plates.. my thinking (may be off in left field) is that I can spread the load over a greater area (less pressure, more strength) but as much for the reason that I see a natural stress point at the edge of the backing plate... the plywood allows me to move that stress point out from the mounting, and the plywood would have at least some flex, where the metal would not.

[ebb]

Good show Craig!
Plywood imco also has a little give to it that I think is kinder to fastenings under stress and under tension. I'd guess that smaller bolts like those that hold stanchions will last longer with the ply backup plate, and because of the give may also help in preserving the stanchion base as well. The give may also help in holding the caulk and not opening it up to leaking. A little flexibility! Maybe when you get up into 3/8"/ 1/2" bolts it doesn't matter, go totally solid. Especially if you are attaching plate. ???