Self steering systems - Wind Vanes

[elie fouere]

Hi there,
Well my boat is high and dry, i hauled early, about a month ago, so I could start martime school. And I hope to use the association as a resource for a class. And for my ariel, here in Maine. I would like to add a simple self steering system, that uses the wind and the existing rudder. I have read about some but know not of any. Does any one have one? Or know of a good company? Please let me know, and I will writting up my findings for the class and for the news bulletin.
Thanks
Elie #20

[Bill]

A very simple and reliable windvane is Scanmar's Monitor Windvane. Had one on a 30 foot offshore cruiser. The company has a Web page at www.selfsteer.com. Good luck with your classes:)

[Bogle]

I like the looks of the sailomat windvane.

http://www.sailomat.com/home.html

One of these would cost almost as much as I paid for #92!

[elie fouere]

Thanks, I will check these links out and report my progress

[elie fouere]

Well I have recieved some replies. Scanmar Monitor made a rig for an Ariel and sent me detail of the stern monting. Made be we can order a bakers dozen? I also found a book by Bill Belcher that givens plan for a home made rig that runs the tiller.
Does the Association have larger drawings of the Ariel's Lines as in page 144 of the second addition, availible?
Thanks again

[Bogle]

Elie,
I have some copies of commander drawings. The Association has some that I sent them, but they seem to have misplaced them. Anyway, I'd like to see how the Monitor model was mounted on one of our diminutive transoms. The Sail-0-Mat would require an extension plate up about 7 inches from the top of the transom. That would put it up to about 36 inches above the water according to my drawings. I'd be somewhat concerned about the looks of any contraption hanging off the stern, but I'd appreciate the function.

I'm also reading a book, Self-Steering for Sailing Craft. I picked it up on ebay for about $12. It is out of print, from the early sixties or seventies. You, studying this, should get it. It goes way into the engineering priniples, if not all the computation details that would be required to actually engineer one. It is mainly about how to do it yourself if you are not a big company trying to make a "product" for mass production.

David

[Bill]

We have Alberg's full scale lines drawing. It was the master for the one on page 144. In fact, I have a full scale copy hanging in my office. If you need a copy, we can have it duplicated. I think the duplication cost was around $8. And then there would be the mailing tube and postage. E-mail me your preference.

Bill

[elie fouere]

Here are two drawings that Scanmar sent me, for two different systems, but boy do they cost some! I aslo found a book Wind Vane Self Steering by Bill Belcher gives plans for a home made version that works just the tiller.

Bill I would like drawings where do I send the check?
:)

[Mike Goodwin]

I'm planning on converting #45 to a yawl rig .
From a distance , she will look just like my favorite Pearson Triton .
I have had yawls in the past and found they can be ballanced with the mizzen to where she will track for hours with a bungee attached to the tiller from the coamings .
You can also get more complicated and run the mizzen sheet to the tiller .
The yawl rig will give more sail options , a platform for antennas , etc. that is far more accessable than the masthead .
Have experience with several tiller devices and they all had fairly heavy battery drain .
The windvanes will spoil the looks of the boat and add weight aft .

That's my 2 cents worth .

Mike

[elie fouere]

A yawl is an interesting option. What are your spec.s, do you have parts of an old rig you are recycling? How big of a sail will you bend?
I do have concerns about weight in the transom, and appearence, of the vane. But I am just researching for the moment.

[Mike Goodwin]

I am recycling an old mast , 16' ,and I think the whole rig will only be about 30 lbs.
The luff will be close to 14' and the foot between 4' & 6' . The proportions are much like the main .

[commanderpete]

Hi Y'awl

Sailnet.com has the Raytheon ST1000 Plus Tiller Autopilot on sale for $390.00. Comes with a free remote.

West Marine catalog lists it at $450.00 and the remote at $190.00.

I'm too much of a traditionalist for these electronic innovations (read: too cheap).

I agree with Steve. The cost and ugliness of a wind vane could only be justified if you plan some serious passagemaking.

Ketch ya later.

[Mike Goodwin]

A little secret when dealing with West Marine , see if you can qualify for a 'Port Supply' card , it may take some BSing but it is worth it .
It will give very deep discounts on stuff from West marine . I got 40% off a $600 battery charger/inverter .Doesn't help much on electronics like radios , GPS , etc. ( not much markup ) . Helps a lot on paint , brushes , varnish and other maintenance supplies .

[ebb]

you know what you can do to get "scale" drawings is to take them down to a copy center and have them blow it up to 1/2" per foot. A little difficult with the overall dimension but close enuf, it's no grand piano. I have them on the walls all over the kitchen

[elie fouere]

well here are my conclusions based on the limited reseach I conducted. Thank you for all the replies. Please tell me what you think
Elie

[elie fouere]

Well here are my conclusions based on the reseach I conducted. Thank you for all the replies.
Please tell me what you think

Elie

[elie fouere]

This should work, having problems sendind the document.

Elie

[commanderpete]

A very scholarly piece.

It's good to see Professor Phelon receive attribution.

Now, if you could just finagle a research grant you would be home free.

[Bogle]

Anybody still listening? I've come across another munufacturer whose lightest unit is only about 30 lbs. It's called the Pacific Light from Windpilot.

http://www.windpilot.com

Appears to be the ticket for our small shorthanded cruisers.

[Bill]

The winger 2001 or 2002 newsletter had a very good article on self steering. It was written by a member attending a college of marine science working on her really big boat ticket.

I may be able to post it if you don't still have the newsletter.

[Janice Collins]

Found the newsletter. Thanks. Will read tonight.

[Janice Collins]

Wind vanes seem like a good choice for extended passages. But for NOW, anyone use a method of tieing down the tiller just to pull up/down sails, change sails etc.... That works well?

[S.Airing]

Sirocco has an Autohelm 1000,works well when motoring and when the wind is very constant.If the wind is shifty it chases its self around,and is not very good.

[Dave]

Janice,
Forgive me if I misunderstand your question, or describe something you already know.
One of the best ways to bring your boat under control when you are alone and need to rest or reef the main is to "heave to."
Bring the boat to a close-hauled point of sail. Use the windward jib sheet (the opposite one that you would normally use on that point of sail) to pull the jib or genoa clew across the centerline of the boat and cleat the sheet in that position. With the headsail filled "the wrong way" the boat will want to bear off. So, you lash the tiller to leeward, which tries to make the boat head up. These two acts cause the boat to alternate between bearing off and heading up -- in effect the boat slowly jogs along almost in place. Everything slows down and quiets down. You'll need to adjust the mainsheet to balance the boat, and find the sweet spot that brings the boat nearly to a stop.
You can eat lunch, work on the boat, fix a leak, bail the bildge, or take a very short cat nap if there's no traffic.
And it doesn't require any electricity.
--Dave G

[Janice Collins]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I appreciate everyones time and energies.

Anyways....I will have to try this "heave- to" method and see if I can find that Sweet Spot... JUST AS SOON AS I GET THE COURAGE TO CAST OFF ALONE!!

:cool:

[iceman]

Greetings form the land of no snow and frozen water
Im thinking of a wind vane auto pilot for our Commander
Any info
Any used ones for sail, (sale)
Happy New Year :D

[Tony G]

So that's where the moniker 'iceman' comes from :D

Ever consider building one on your own?

http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/index.htm [LINK NO LONGER GOOD]

I think one could build a working model to iron the wrinkles out then duplicate it stainless and FRP. Just a thought...

[iceman]

Moniker comes from living in Vermont
and working for 3 seasons down in Antarctica
Ill check out website thanks

[commanderpete]

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=15&highlight=vane

http://www.bway.net/~bogle/commander.html

[iceman]

Too bad you cant post the mpeg of the penquins
Whatbrand on vane is Capt Bogle"s :D

[commanderpete]

Dave's homepage says its a Windpilot Pacific Light.

I always thought those little guys in tuxedos were penGuins.

Might want to check before you paint the name on your boat ;)

[Jim Rester]

We had a Windpilot on our cruising boat. Fantastic equipment.

Mine was damaged in shipment - the folks did not bat an eye, just replaced it. All the way from Germany.

The Windpilot, the Maxprop, the Schaeffer Roller Furling, The Autohelm Tiller Pilot and the Yanmar engine made our cruise.

By the way, you can never have too much fuel or too much horsepower on a cruising SAILBOAT. Nor can you have too many GPS's

Jim

[c_amos]

By the way, you can never have too much fuel or too much horsepower on a cruising SAILBOAT. Nor can you have too many GPS's

Jim

Noted. ;)

[ebb]

Good resourceful thread resurfacing again!

338 Sun Quest came with an enormous Auto Helm attached (like, once said, a petrified octopus) all over the transom. The prosthesis probably weighed as much as an OB. Maybe more. As weights add up in the ends of my remodel, there's no possibility I will resurect this particular gear. Tiller to sheet sounds like the best way to go and I sure hope 338's skipper comes up with this alternative to the wind vane.

It would be great to hear from anybody who has experimented with this lighter and much cheaper method and is willing to share it. Basically, can an A/C be tuned and 'balanced' for sheet to tiller on extended offshore runs?

[ebb]

Check out
www.steersman.net
for a new invention in non-windvane self steering.

[willie]

This is good reading.

http://www.oarclub.org/page22.html [LINK NO LONGER WORKING]
And make sure you look at the next page for diagrams, etc.

I'm gonna play around with it, not that i can stay on a heading for any extended time on the river, but would like to get more of a handle on the CE balancing act. (I see yawl was discussed earlier! lol) Had the pirates out on the Columbia today, great Father's Day. They flew their pirate flag, here's a pic for fun. Camera died when the admiral was taking the better/later ones. Figures. Someday i'll get some of her sailing from the beach... ;)

[Bill]

A bit embarrassing there? . . . dragging a fender :confused:

[willie]

In marina mode Bill, by myself, sailing her in.Kids were swimming....Of course got caught with a slack main... anything else? lol

[ebb]

It's a well known fact that in the waters north of California, sailors often deploy a fender over the side to test the temperature. If it deflates it is too cold and one should return to the marina. :rolleyes:

[c_amos]

We have also been known to employ that method in the south.


If said fender pops, set in the shade on the bank for a 'spell' and wait.




(water temp on the surface was 91f on Sunday afternoon) :eek:

[frank durant]

Ebbs 'sheet to tiller" steering is kinda expensive. Check out SV solar wind.Its on the 'Flicka" sight.Explore solar winds sight and you'l find a very good explanation,pics and materials for an inexpensive 'home made' system.

[mbd]

Dan Pfeiffer's excellent P26 web site has a home-made self steering set up too...

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/selfsteer.htm

[ebb]

Came in on the Steersman on the boatdesign site. Have a soft spot for inventors. They fielded quite a few questions including complaints about the price. Askt them if it could be configured another way. like off the back of the cockpit. But, as it seems sometimes with people (including yerstruly), once they get it set in the mind, they will defend a position as tho they were blind.

The gear is just too much, with three tillers and all manner of blocks and line seeming to take over most of the cockpit, especially if the sheet winches are in the middle of the coamings like ours. There'd be but few places to put yer arms.... like a girl in a short skirt and see thru blouse.

[carl291]

If anyone has been searching for affordable light weight wind vane self steering this may be a good choice, it is the one I'm favoring.
http://www.mistervee.com/?q=newsletter/subscriptions
With the discount and the EURO exchange it may be hard to beat.

[ebb]

Carl,
First thing Sven has to do is shoot the piano player!

I saw the PacificLight on Adam's FolkBoat when he came into the yard preparing for the TransPac. The unit was impressive in its spareness.
It is also all stainless except for the vane, and 28lbs comes to mind for total weight.
Nearly twice Mister Vee.
It also seemed easy to install on the A/C transom.

I would also like to see less sheet handling and more angle shots with better light on the three vane choices.
Sven may be protecting himself from patent robbers.
BUT there needs to be more visual info, imco.

A video or two on actual installation on a customer's boat.
I want to see attachment points, line leads, other equioment avoidance - whatever: cleats, backstay, OB, stern rail, and so forth. Revealing diagrams, if not photos.
I like the site and the inventor. BUT I don't think it's possible to make a decision with the info available.
Some adjustments seem complicated not knowing the unit. So, it would be good to have Sven
show us some of these on video, rather than in blocks of text.
Pacific Light on the Windpilot site has pretty good graphics imco.


What makes you like this system over PacificLight???

[carl291]

ebb,
I may have provided the wrong link, maybe try: mistervee.com I haven't been there in a while but viewed the entire unit with all the info you requested except actual installation of the mounting braces. Members of his blog could receive blueprints parts and assistance if they wanted to build their own system, I was a member at the time and didn't take advantage of his offer, which I think has expired. I thought he was very open with disclosing information.
I haven't come across any info on PacificLight in my search.
I do however like the mister Vee ( I might add he makes 3 different models) because of its lightweight, the fact that the whole unit can be removed in minutes, making less prone to damage and thieves , it is the pendulum style, it's about 1/3 the price of anything I've found so far, has few custom one of parts that could be fabricated any where in the world. The unit has and is being tested in a pretty tough enviorment and Sven has found some weak points and rushed to correct them and sent out notices to customers of earlier models to correct them. When viewing, it appears to be prone to damage when compared to say the Moniter Windvane but it does seem to to be perfectly sized for the Ariel.

[ebb]

The Y&B model (Young & Beautiful?) is, I think, my choice because it is versatile in mounting options. litlgull has a OB propeller sticking out of the transom when tilted up.
It's hard to tell what's what with the Y&B because you have to work to get info and apps from UTube video.
I'll keep checking back to see what developments happen. What's gratifying is that there seems
to be a lot of activity around this wind vane.
I'll stand by most of what I said on my MrVee post.
In looking at the six or eight other windvane sites my atitude has changed.
The stainless vanes are unversally heavier and complicated and strangely kind of stuck in the past.

MrVee comes off as current. In fact the mode(s) are probably being updated as we order them. Which is a good thing. Energy is always a good thing.

Windpilot...30lbs
PacificLight....28lbs
Sailomat....48lbs
Norvane....too embarrassed to tell us
MrVee Y&B 22lbs
it's not stainless but it looks prertty tough!!!
And I believe the 22lbs includes the mounting KIT and the rudder.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________
What the Y&B does not have that most stainless have is that the vane rudder can be used as a back up for the boat's in case it gets lost.

[Bill]

Has anyone researched the Cape Horne?

http://www.capehorn.com/sections/obso/Obsolete.htm

[ebb]

Hey Bill,
I happened to see a comment (second hand) by Jim Baldwin
who discounted it because it intrudes into the lazarette - the way it usually is installed
with a hole in the center of the transom.
I don't know if he actually had one on his Triton.
The Cape Horn came into this world on an A-30. It is probably best suited to boats of that displacement like nearly all of the stainless crew. Too bad there isn't an 18lb halfplastic version guananteed for one circumnavigation and able to control an Ariel dead downwind!

Lightest reported weight of the Cape Horn is 35lbs.

An important point viz A/Cs is our extra large hatch that is our rear deck.
Consideration has to be given to access to the vane from the cockpit and rigging of control lines.

Notice that MrVee Sven in videos is often tweeking his plastic fantastic self steerer from the cockpit.

Treat yourself to meeting Yves at the Strictly Sail Expo in Alamada, couple weeks away.:cool:
Lot more satisfying, imco - and cheaper - than going to the BrionToss lecture.

[ebb]

The Mr Vee requires a hole thru the back of the transom. Tried to engage Sven in a discussion toward alternative 'outside' control lines*.
No A/C, imco, would tolerate lines thru the stern locker. Especially one with an OB.
emailis abruptly ceased - might have been something aye said,
but was going for the lightest self steering available.


Now have the PACIFIC LIGHT !
Shipped UPS direct to my doorstep in a single carton for (a very fair price) by Peter from Hamborg.

There is, by contrast, a lot of videos and stuff available on the net to try to see....to hold....to visualize
what a Wind Pilot machine IS befor committing....

[* exactly what the PACLIGHT does.]


Nothing prepares you for actually opening the box and lifting out the components........

[carl291]

Mr. ebb, Sven is off on the water cruising, I guess he doesn't have access to a computer! He now makes his windvanes out of carbon fiber and fiberglass. I bought the stainless steel version ( stainless WALT) ( the last one) although I haven't received it yet. It mounts on/with stainless tubing to the the transom. I am unaware of any hole other than the mounting bolts that pass through the stern. I may be surprised when it arrives!! He gave me a weight of 28 lbs total. I'm waiting on his return so the payment and shipping can be finalized. Since it is the last of the stainless WALTS I got a bargain price of about $750 plus about $150 shipping. I'll post some pics when it arrives.

[Scott Galloway]

http://www.solopublications.com/images/steer/sh2tl113.jpg I have done quite a bit of researching of, testing of, and day-to-day practical use of sheet-to-tiller self steering on my Pearson Ariel, "Augustine,' hull #330. I began by studying the inventions of John Letcher, and Tony Heisel, and later adapted the developments made by John Ward and Al Gunther. Finally I made my own refinements. The system that I built on my Ariel is inexpensive, light weight, and stows below. The mainsheet-to-tiller gear will keep an Ariel on any course from close hauled to a beam reach, and my jibsheet-to-tiller gear will keep an Ariel on course from a beam reach to a very broad reach. Neither gear will handle sailing dead down wind. You'll need twin head sails or a wind vane to do that. These self-steering gears are very easy to build yourself using Dacron line, some surgical tubing, a few blocks, a small block and tackle (vang) and miscellaneous other materials. For more information on this system see my web page on the topic at http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm

[ebb]

Carl, Hope your WALT MrV is as you expect it to be!
Pacific Light advertises the same 28# weight as well.
But I had to 'custom' (an already existing) standoff bracket to be sure the vane won't conflict with the OB propeller tilted up thru the transom.
Windpilot has been mounted on every conceivable stern.
The control lines come off a bar attached to the unit at deck level that directs them more or less along the toe rails
where turning blocks are mounted that take the line to the tiller. Can't see anything wrong with that.

Been away, so finally will take the plastic wrapping off the PacLite today,
and see how the pieces fit. And what the actual weight is.
But I'm a long way from putting it on the boat.
Buying it, getting it, and paying for it (VISA) was absolutely painless.
Unless I have to compare it to what you got yours for ! ! ! Would be instructive to see actual comparisons.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
PACIFIC HEAVY
Appears to be a Pacific Light - said to be WindPilot PacificLight:
Consists of a beautifully sculpted sandcast aluminum two arm piece - nicely machined at joints and sockets - jointed in the middle - one holds the ply wind paddle, the other the aluminum rudder blade,
plus the spreader bar for the line (32lbs)
a hefty cast triangular "flange" transom mount for the arms (11lbs)
and a bag (marked PL) of line, chain, tiller fitting, blocks, bolts & sundries (4lbs) Grand total of 21.32 kgs. 47LBS AMERICAN !
Weighed on the old Sunbeam bathroom scale - so it may be a little off? ....
Could I really have all this time been reading kilogrammes as pounds?
Whot in hell do I have here?
[actual carton weight 27kg (59.5lbs) - specs that came with the vane says "weight 13kg/28lbs" - another painful %&*&*(#$@#@$:mad: screwup!]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
Peter Foerthmann responded, a bit angry, to an email in which I stated the Sunbeam scale weights. Additional weight to Pacific Light comes from my needing a special bracket that mounts the vane further out and away from the OB propeller which in UP position protrudes from the transom. And also the added Crossbar lead for the lines from the vane to quarter blocks on aft deck lead to the tiller.
"After now 38 years of running my business, I have to confess that I never had a discussion like this!" says the inventor of the WindPilot. However, in my defence as a card-carrying squarehead, I might have been 'reminded' that these additions would cost me in weight - would add to the advertised working weight of 28#. AND just what I'd expect the total added weights might add up to.
Not having an accurate weight scale has become the impetus to order a "Legal for Trade" (good to 1/2 an ounce) scale for the estate here, one we've always needed. So no doubt I will weigh these parts and report in a later post.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________



Scott,
you've been able to experiment with self steering on Augustine. So jealous!
Exactly the kind of stuff I would dearly love to be doing right NOW.
Hopefully soon we'll splash litlgull and I'll find out what's really been missing.

Scott, is it at all possible to purchase a copy of your monograph:
experimenting with ARIEL SELF STEERING?

Want to follow your process to its solution. And really have to see the step by step with FULL SIZED PHOTOS.
Imco your presentation is not something that can be downloaded from your web site......altho I have not tried to do so.
Can't see detail in the pics.
HAVE TO SEE the whole picture of what you've acomplished sized to my old eyes, and in hand, from the author.
It's PROCESS that is most interesting & instructive.

Happy to trade book price for your log on the subject. Hope you say yes!

And maybe there are others here who would enjoy a full scale hard copy......?

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

There is no monograph or hard copy. This was a web project. The labeled photos were sized for the web, so what you see is what you get. You can print the page of course. I do have the original digital photos in larger size, but they are too large to send by mail. In any case they are not labeled, so they would probably not make much sense. That is the problem with the web. To get the photo to load quickly it has to be small. Website capacity issues prevent me from storing larger photos so that an enlarged view can be obtained by clicking on an embedded photo.

I do have an abbreviated PowerPoint slide presentation on self-steering that I can e-mail to you that would allow you to view some of the photos on a screen. I use the presentation for a navigation class that I teach.

[ebb]

Scott. You have at least 50 to 60 photos there
at least half of which should be half page or larger
to get your text across.
Don't know what numbers of pages the text has
if laid out in brochure form. But in book form you would
ace the web project. A well designed book would bear no resemblance.

You really have, as I say, a unique monograph
that would find readers and users with all kinds of plastic classics.
who would want a copy..... if available in book form.
An editor might suggest setting the book up as 'voyage' of discovery.
Showing how considerations of balance and wind and materials showed you how to
psyche out the perfect self-steer system for any sailboat.

It might even be desirable if you found someone to diagram
and illustrate certain rope tricks you have there.

Make your piece into a picture book.

In my considered opinion, a direct download -
at least in what I'm able to do by hitting the print button -
in no way does justice to your ideas & presentation - the photos are just too small.
Detail is too hard to see, for the most part.

I would venture a guess that your thoughts as well
have a larger and wider audience of owners of many later boats than ours.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Ebb,

The PowerPoint presentation referenced above takes about fifteen minutes of a two-hour class, which is one of sixteen two hours classes in the coastal navigation course. I offer the PowerPoint presentation as a counter point to the textbook discussion on autopilots. Of course you can't hook a sheet-to-tiller self-steering system of this type up to your GPS, but then again a sheet-to-tiller self-steering system of this type has no power draw on the battery.

An abstract on sheet-to-tiller self-steering systems may have some marketability, but most of the concepts and designs were the inventions of others, so there is nothing unique, with the exception of my refinements. John Letcher, Tony Heisel, John Ward and Al Gunther should get the credit for their discoveries and inventions. I adapted the systems to a Pearson Ariel, but these systems should work on any tiller-equipped long-keel sailboat and maybe other shorter-keel boats as well. Those interested in looking deeper into the theory and development of these systems might want to read the following:

1. John Letcher's book Self Steering for Sailing Craft
Available from your local independent bookstore, or from Amazon.com for about $12.50 plus shipping.

2. Tony Heisel's book A Manual of Single Handed Sailing
published by Arco Publishing Inc. New York 1981.

3. Sheet-to-Tiller Self Steering - John Ward with information and photos by Al Gunther
http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

In the end, there is nothing better to teach you how a sheet-to-tiller self steering system works than taking some lengths of Dacron line and a few feet of surgical tubing to sea with you to discover what your boat can do with them if you give her a chance.

If you install a sheet-to-tiller self-steering system on your boat, your boat will become conscious of (sensitive to) the force of the wind on its sails.

Although a boat as heavy as an Ariel might sense a slight change in its weight distribution when you fall overboard, it will in all likelihood remain on course. The sheet-to-tiller self steering system that you install on your Ariel will not make your boat conscious of (sensitive to) your presence. Indeed it does just the opposite. If you fall overboard while sailing alone with your self-steering gear engaged, your boat will sail very well without you on board. A life jacket, AND a harness, AND secure places to attach that harness, AND a reasonable way to climb back on your vessel at sea are all necessities for the single hander. Life jackets AND harnesses are necessary for all crew members when on deck even even fully crewed. They are even more important when crew members are on deck forward or aft of the cockpit. They are critical when you are sailing alone.

[ebb]

Scott.
ALL good advice. And aye can see your logic....

But for the fact, that after the first boat was invented,
many more boats were invented.

What with the likes of Tord Sunden, Rob Tucker, Phil Rhodes, Olin Stephens, Al Mason....
Why did Carl Alberg bother?

There would be only ONE book on selfsteering and cockpit layout.
Why recommend more than one if the first or the second has the subject down?

My daughter has become a NYTimes best seller of scifi fiction.
Why did she bother when there are thousands of other writers of scifi?

It took desire and focus and lots of purpose and energy to give us what you have!
Thanks for sharing your ideas and inventions with us!

[Bill]

My daughter has become a NYTimes best seller of scifi fiction.

I guess she inherited that ability . . . :cool:

[Rico]

I guess she inherited that ability . . . :cool:

Doh! - Good one Bill!

- Ebb; Many Congratulations! (That is not an easy achievement!) Let us looking for a good read in on the book's title!
(Does this mean you'll be moving-up the departure date?

[ebb]

Ok you guys, I can assure you that the shenom would agree
that of our 3.2 billion live genes there isn't one squiggle for Imagination.
How many daughters of geniuses are geniuses?
Lisa Manelli? (come on, be real). Rosalind Hicks (Agatha Christie)
The offspring is the result of her own individual sequencing
for which there is no equation or computer program.

If aye should make a claim, it is that as the incurable curmudgeon
aye never got in her way!
Even Way Back When.;)

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

The reason Cal Alberg designed a boat for Pearson is that Pearson paid him to design a boat or them. You can improvise without drawings when you are rebuilding a boat, but to build a boat commercially you need plans. Most most builders hire professional designers to design boats for them. This is quite a different thing than writing a book about someone else's invention, when the inventor has already written a book on the same subject. I suppose it would be a little like someone signing his name on one of Phil Rhodes' yacht design blueprints, and then trying to sell those plans to Pearson.

[ebb]

From; Sven Heesterman (captain@mistervee.com)Sent Thu 8/02/12 12:30 AM

Hi Ebb,
After looking at the website's statistics I finally found a way to read
the Ariel forum. I had not realized it was open, thought I needed to login.

So I found the thread where you had posted about selecting your system.

My apologies for not getting back in touch, I am afraid I missed that
you were awaiting a reply.
It is a shame that your windpilot turned out so much heavier than you
had expected. But from everthing I read, Peter Foerthmann has a high
level of service.
And the windpilots are well built and good looking. I'm sure you will be
happy with your windpilot.

It was good to read your remarks on leading the lines through the
transom. I may have been slightly unclear about this. If I recall I
thought it was an easy option for your boat but Y&B offers the option of
both a high path and a low path for the steering lines.

I've written an explanation on this here:
http://windvaneselfsteering.com/?q=content/ybs-easy-mounting-system

All the best
Sven Heesterman
Designer
Mister Vee/Svennovations
Arnhem, the Netherlands EU
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THUS emaileth Sven - and it clears the wind. Seems the break in communications merely was a miss.
Haven't made the attempt to compare these two windvanes. Wouldn't know how. It would be great to expose them SIDE BY SIDE.*

WINDPILOT PL
Will lend the Pacific Light for a direct VANE TO VANE reality check.
It is imco easy enough to set up ply mock ups of transoms,
or better, if someone was willing, it's much more revealing to use an actual Ariel/Commander - check out the lead for those pesky control lines.

litlgull is too radically altered from original to be useful as a test platform. She has a hump instead of a aft hatch,
and a tiller that is unlike the original. And she requires a heavy extension mounting bracket
to shift the vane a further 10" outboard to miss the tilted OB propeller.
I do not have (or know the weight of) the regular mounting flange that comes with a normal Pacific Light.
Vane is obviously better suited to an A/C with an inboard. Or a light 2-stroke in the well.

Weight on the A/C stern is a crucial consideration for cruising this small boat.
Don't know how to measure it - but adding an extra 10lbs to what must be considered a cantilever arm
exerting force of many times more than 10LBS onto the stern of an OB Ariel is not a plan and doesn't seem to be smart.
Might be quite dangerous.
And that's the concern with a 28LB machine weighing in at an unintended 47LBS. [see post #63] By tomorrow we'll have this accurate
- to the ounce.
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In fact, would consider lending this unit to any SFBayArea Ariel or Commander just to check it out.
Have to import the smaller (& lighter) mounting bracket from Germany. Peter would make it easy - pretty sure.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
*Can't find and don't recall that PRACTICAL SAILOR has done a review or comparison of windvanes.

[P.S. does the only impartial marine product testing that practical boaters have. They seem to be competent if not eccentric when comparing
products that are found in a WorstMarine catalog - and introducing innovative toys.
Their June issue 2012 has a "Marine Epoxy Comparison" that pits FOUR faniliar commerical products against each other - leaving a whole raft of other DIY brands out of the test. Many interesting and exceptional products will never see the magazine's pages.
I call this focus: SEVEN ELEVENING.
Limited choice of products to be tested is NOT impartial. Imco this has a lot more to do with how small their test bench in the shop is - and whether the glue is on the shelf at the local WM store.

[P.S. "compared epoxy resins from four different makers: West System, Epiglass, Mas, and Raka." Epiglass is Interlux.
Interlux is their flagship default brand for glue product (incl paint) comparisons.
System3 for whatever reason (S3 may have declined to be included) was not included.
Nor was my long established (been around 60 years with 20 west coast brick-&-mortars), plastics company TaylorArtPlastic's Premium Marine Epoxy. Nor any premium internet resources that often have better prices, better choices, and maybe better epoxies. viz: www.fibreglast.com www.epoxyusa.com. These products should be tested against non-marine, read less expensive, AceHardware & HomeDepot Epoxy as well, if P.S. actually have their subscriber's interests foremost.]

I'll bet my bippy that IF P.S. managed to design a procedure for testing selfsteering windvanes for small to midsized boats, they'd ignore MisterVee, or just pretend the Mr.Vane doesn't exist.. Not a fact, of course.:rolleyes:
Year 12issue subscription is $84, currently a deal for $57. Renewing is futile.

[ebb]

(1) The articulated cast Almag35 main servopendulum unit - without attachments: 19.25lbs.
2) Coated ply wind paddle 'vane': 1.25lbs.
3)** The bag of blocks, line, chain, mounting bolts, bronze chain catch, etc.: 3.25lbs.
(MINUS the .65lb of three supplied hex wrenches.)
4) Hollow airfoil aluminum rudder: 3.50lbs.

Total without mounting flange: 27.25lbs.

5) Alternate standoff mounting (F 1) flange: 9.75lbs.
[what is the weight of standard P.L. mounting (F 0) flange, sans bolts?]
6) Line spreader bar: 2.20lbs.

Grand total weight this Pacific Light: 39.20lbs.


The vane came with a spare unpainted ply wind paddle (1.10lbs),
bolts for the mounting flange included, as well as assembly tools.
Tools, spare wind paddle, and plastic shipping bags not included in this weighing.

**3) Integral tiller fitting, light chain link, line & blocks might not all be counted in the manufacturer's aft-of-stern-rail total weight.
It is hard to know what is included or not in the Windpilot brochure weight of 28.6601lbs (13kg).
13kg minus Pacific Light's Sonoma California tally of 27.25 = 1.4101 lbs. Is this near the weight of a normal (F 0) flange bracket? Doubtful.


[Ebb, UIC
ungratedful incurable curmudgeon.]

You know, I'm not putting Pacific Light or anything down here, just trying to find out stuff.
And of course you, gentle reader, might be interested in some of this stuff.
Stuff sometimes doesn't reveal itself until you ask questions.
Asking questions about stuff can reveal how stupid you can be at times.
But I'd be many times more stupid if I didn't ask. SO, ENLIGHTEN ME, please.
Doesn't matter if I'm seen as stupid. Rather be stupid than wrong.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
*on a brand new fully charged Legal-for-Trade digital platform scale.

[Malolo]

I recommend the smaller and lighter Navik wind vane, http://www.selfsteer.com/products/navik/index.php.
Though Scanmar no longer sells them, they can be found
used at very good prices. I used one on my Triton and it
worked well.

[ebb]

Hey Malolo,
I've made a few notes of our 12 or 13 current servo pendulum contenders,
and the Navik is a strange omission. Scanmar says they stopped making it. No reason, no parts. Period.
And then there is/was Plastimo who inherited the Navik... And they dropped it.... WHY?
And no wordsmith in the marine field has found it necessary to tell us how such a fine self-steerer
was dropped TWICE by major names in the business ! ! ?
Maybe it takes the crazy energy of an inventor to keep things going.

Navik to me looks like it could have been spiffed up and modernized
with things like carbon tube, teflon impegnated bearings, and Dyneema twine.

No one on any of the forums I looked at put the Navik down,
nothing but good things said about it.
Tho I came across one who sez it's built too light. So who sez?
Somebody with a 50lb Monitor junglejim on their transom.

We can download the Navik manual from a Plastimo site.
And Sven Heesterman at MrVane is THE SOURCE FOR NAVIK PARTS.
Just saw an as new for sale on www.usedboatequipment.com/
dated Aug07-2012, Baltimore for $1250, which is imco about half price new.
30lbs, and was set up on a counter stern, perfect for an Alberg - Ariel/Commander.

navikvane YouTube
has some good video of one perched like a guillemot on the stern of a 27' AlbinVega.

Nice download diagram shows the paddle with an added trimtab, see it missing on the boat in the video.
But interesting...... what's going on there? What's a trimtab doing on an oar anyway?

[ebb]

Horizontal servo-pendulum windvanes tend to be the smallest, lightest, most efficient self-steering pilots. OK in light wind over two knots - come into their own as wind increases.
Generally cannot be used as an emergency rudder, paddles are too small and light.
(See windvane paddle as a remote trimtab to the boat's main rudder.)
Boat's rudder shaft bearing must have no slop and tiller head little play. Control lines from the unit must be a non-stretch line (Dyneema), rigged out of traffic with no chafe, thru a minimum number of light free-running blocks.
In 2012 expect to pay around $2000 for a ready to bolt on windvane. Plus or minus $500, or more - it can vary widely - with unexpected addons - and work time if you buy one in kit form - or used.
Shipping costs, taxes can substantially jack the total cost.
Imco it's well worth the extra bumph to have a vane shipped from Europe by UPS or FedEx directly to your door. They handle paperwork, customs, language difficulties, the visit to the airport, parking, & so forth.

Quest began with indentifying the lightest units first, followed by cost, ruggedness, materials, maintenance.
Focus is on vanes that might be most appropriate for a 26' Alberg sloop. Favor pilots offered by upfront individual INVentors.

Here are the suspects arranged lightest (advertised) weight first. Kg/lb.

1) MrVane (Netherlands) 7.5/16. www.mrvane.com/
2) VectaVane (UK) 9/20. http://www.vectavane.co.uk/
3) South Atlantic (Argentina) 12.5/27.5. http://www.south-atlantic.com.ar/
4) Windpilot Pacific Light (Germany) 13/28. http://windpilot.com/
5) Navik (defunct) 13.6/30.
6) Bouvaan (Netherlands) 14/31. www.hollandwindvane.com/
7) CapeHorn (Canada) 16/35. www.capehorn.com/
8) Neptune (UK) 17/37.5 www.windvane.co.uk/
9) Sailomat (California) 20.5/46 http://www.sailomat.com/
10) Monitor (California) 24/53 www.selfsteer.com/
11) Voyager (Canada) 25/55 http://vwsportleagues.ca/windvanes
12) Norvane (California) ?/? http://www.selfsteeting.com/
13) Fleming (Australia) ?/? www.flemingselfsteer.com/
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1) MrVane. Sven Heesterman inv. $2074USD + shipping $175. Extras? Carbon & frp tube, foam paddle, plastic vane.
Kit assembly, 2-3hrs. There are various upgrades & configurations.
2) VectaVane. Rusty Lea inv. $1508. Trimtab on paddle. S.S. AL castings, nylon bearings. Blade does not tilit up. Boat needs to be still to remove unit.
3) South Atlantic. S-301 orffshore kit. 4bolt mount, one bolt removal. $1618. Looks like Windpilot. Euro market. Wood/epoxy vane & paddle.
4) Windpilot. P.L. Peter Forthmann inv. (from experience) flange mount option might add significant weight. $2350 included EVERYTHING needed to sailaway. EVERYTHING included shipping the PacificLight to my front door !
5) Navik.Defunct. $100 to $1250 (per current examples) s.s and lexan. MrVane has parts for Navik he has made. Manual avalable Plastimo online.
6) Bouvaan Holland Windvane. Sm kit $1028USD, requires 60-100hrs plus welding. Ball bearings (rather than sleeves) Finished $1811, assume factory. Supply own leadmetal, blocks and line.
7) Cape Horn. Yves Gelinas inv. $3460 standard model. Usually installed with horizontal axis glassed thru transom for keel-hung rudders like Albergs. To a quadrant OR lines to tiller. Other configurations, weight? Lots of personality to website with good info.
8) Neptune $2500, accesories extra. LM25AL castings, 6063 tubes, 316 shafts, teflon impregnated bearings. Paddle, frp. Airfoil, ply.M790.
Open and revealing website.

Sailomat, Monitor, Voyager are great windvanes but imco they belong on larger boats. (Litlgull originaly came with an auxillary rudder Auto Helm ! Anything is possible.)
May have just missed the data, but presenting your windvane for public sale without disclosing weight is BS!
Fleming Global Equipe. $5000USD. Norvane Model 12 (to 26'). $1890.
Wouldn't it be fantastic to see all 13 collected together - you know, side by side, see what's what, see what really stands out......then......
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Both Scanmar(Monitor) and Windpilot sell SOS Rudders that are useless in an unplanned emergency - like when you accidently disable your boat rudder - by rotten luck - in howling winds and troubled waters. These rudders reguire expensive pre-installed flange mounts, a flat calm marina, a break for lunch, and maybe some prime time on the hard.
A real emergency rudder is one deployable when the boat is in real trouble!
BUT for the bluewater adventurer there was a credible emergency rudder IDEA floating around for awhile (may have been posted on the Pacific Cup site) that requires a cassette in the form of a long and strong open wire rod basket hinged to the transom into which you drop a foam composite blank with an airfoil shape on the part in the water. Gudgeons (or XHD T-track) are permanently prefixed on transom, the cassette/scabbard has pinions, one long bolt, or track slides as part of it, which allows the basket to be hung on the transom befor the blade goes into the water stream. The 6' long blade THEN inserts into the basket, which when fully housed reaches the proper number of feet into the water. Also extends above stern-rail for tiller or lines to steer by. Imco a great idea... with design problems to overcome... if developed and made workable could be a real emergency rudder cruisers are looking for.
Transom has to be cleared quickly & easily of anything that's in the way of swinging the extra rudder - as well as its tiller.
www.pineapplesails.com/articles/
www.pacificcup.org
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:DNeptune's description of servo-pendulum removal:

"Main shaft spigots into a mounting boss held in place by a 12mm capscrew
which locates into a dimple in the shaft. Loosen screw. Whole gear can be lifted off.":cool: (pure techno poetry!)

[captcraig]

Hey Ebb, Think I'm leaning towards the Cape Horn vane, any words of wisdom. The designer is quite helpful and very down to earth.

[ebb]

CapCraigsuh,
Never looked into the Galines pilot very thoroly, because A338 has an OB well and cannot have a vane mounted thru the transom.
I favor inventors over corporations, too. So the edge goes with sailor putterers....who have personalties & telephones.

[I'm not interested, however, in his mast climbing steps, which are clever - but for somebody like me, too dangerous!]

Imco the CapeHorn is too heavy to be mounted outboard on the transom of a boat as light as ours.
That's just a feeling. He may have reengineered over time and lightened it up.
Have to say, because CapeHorn was designed for a full keel Alberg 30....it has, for us, provenance.

I think Yves can be found at yearly Strictly Sail shows.
BUT I'd look seriously into the lightest windvane on the list here.
Can usually have conversations with your windvane supplier!:cool:
Inventors are marked in the list with INV.

I'm really disappointeed, because I wasn't sharp enough to ask what the special stand off mount it needed would weigh
before I purchased Pacific Light.... about 1/3 more extra weight over advertised..... unacceptable at this point in the game.
Things might have been different but for a missed communication!
I think TOTAL weight for a windvane on our 18' plus waterline - 26' - 2 1/2 ton - cruiser, should be no more than 26lbs.
A pound a foot. Modern materials can make that happen.


I'm very impressed with pbryant's "The remarkable course stability of the Pearson Ariel"
found on the Sailing and Events Forum 9/28/2012. NO WINDVANE.

I'll experiment with A338's course keeping capabilities befor I hang any wind pilot.
From pbryant's YouTube demos (two or three!), it certainly looks like it's not necessary to go that route.
.... if your boat is balanced.....and you know the boat like pbryant. (and the boat knows pbryant, too!)
Pbryant's 'bravura' adjustment tuning gesture may be required for everyone to get the same results!;)

Non gear assisted course keeping would make revealing discussions with other A/C sailors, coastal and offshore.

[captcraig]

Thanks Ebb for all the comments, good thoughts. On a larger boat in the 32' range with plenty of room in the stern would you be comfortable with a Capehorn?, it uses a few strings. I like the Hydrovane but it wieghs around 100LB and I've seen estimates upwards of that. For the Ariel maybe the outboard well lost to a vane is a bad idea.

[ebb]

If you have an inboard, loss of the Ariel OB well is no big deal.
In fact you'd gain a lot of (fairly dry)storage because the CapeHorn only puts a tube thru the lazerette

If I was researching windvanes for a larger boat, I would look into those
heavier pilots that also can use their paddle as an emergency rudder for the boat.
Servos give up that important safety feature for lighter weight.

I've also made fun of those vanes that use a lot of junglejim tubing on the transom.
Scanmar Monitor comes to mind. It is a servo that can have its paddle removed and an 'SOS' steering rudder
attached in place. Also have to swing a tiller off the pilot.
[Assume you can't do the change-out while hanging on by your teeth.]

But all that nice tubing may also be a way to climb back onboard when you are in a hurry.
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later EDIT
If you are still here after 70 posts, you must be seriously embarked upon the 'adventure of a lifetime', as one correspondant began his essay on the
www.pacificcup.org
web page. That site perpares Pacific Cup sailors for the race to Hawaii. It is an ABSOLUTE GOLD MINE of trustworthy (and extraordinary) information for preparing your boat and your self and crew for bluewater cruising. It is all there.

Before you get into the wind-vane/auxilary rudder situation I would read Evans Starzinger's 2500 word intro: EMERGENCY STEERING SOLUTIONS.
[pdf] Emergency Rudders - Beth and Evans www.bethandevans.com/pdf/emergencyrudder.pdf
His arguement is that before we embark on a vovage of a lifetime, we had better be sure the boat's rudder is in better shape than when it was new.
Because if it isn't, and we blunder into that zone of 99% bad luck* some of us cannot avoid, our lifetime becomes abrupt.
*imco, our chances of hitting a container, submerged log/stump, sleeping whale, or greenwater comber hitting us... increases exponentially every global warming year.
The rudder needs to be as strong as possible.
Beautifully constructed flat board rudders, that came with Ariel/Commander's, imco, cannot be relied on for voyaging. Unless all new.

[Propose an HACA 0012 or 0018 airfoil quadrilateral bronze/pvc foam/frp rudder.... with the strap gudgeon replaced with a two part cast gudgeon capable of supporting the weight of the rudder without the heel fitting.....as an upgrade.]

*In My Considerable Opinion