Yawl conversion

[S.Airing]

Someone about a year ago was talking about changing their Ariel over to a yawl. I coulnt find the post but heres a picture of a Tartan 27 yawl that might give you some ideas..

[Mike Goodwin]

Steve ,
That was me , over in the 'sailing' topics back in Oct . I'm still going to do it , have the mast and rig , need a sail , but have other things to do 1st .
Always wanted a Triton yawl .

Mike G

[Tony G]

Mike
I've been trying to find the thread that discussed the yawl conversion. 'Don't know if this is the right hit but I'm jumping in here. Soooo, what's up with the conversion? I like it when people get crazy ideas and then make them work. Triton yawls do have something about them. If light wind ails you then I could see why you'd attempt the conversion. I'm all behind you. Tony G

ps This months Cruising World had the $75-100K cruisers and one of the boats presented was a Concordia 40. That's a sweet yawl. Oh yeah, I kinda have a soft spot for wooden sailboats too.

[Mike Goodwin]

The conversion is still on , may happen this winter if the weather is mild enough .
Chainplates are in place for split backstay .
I need to move the main traveler , intall maststep , which is ready .
Get shrouds for mizzen.
Make boom.
Get sail cut .

[commanderpete]

From the cover of the January 2000 Newsletter showing Bob Lincoln's factory built Commander Yawl "Yabut"

Looks like he's flying four sails!

[commanderpete]

Maybe this scan will work

[Bill]

Sorry to say, we have not been able to get a response from Bob other than the above photo.

[Mike Goodwin]

It's a mizzen staysail , the yawl's secret weapon . Totally unpenalized sail area .

[Tony G]

Mike
I hope you don't tire of these stupid maybe redundant questions. In CP's attached photo doesn't the foot of Yabut's mainsail look extraordinarily high? I that a characteristic of yawls (or maybe just smaller yawls). I scanned back to Steve's Tartan 27 photo and that boom seems mush higher than I would have expected. In regards to the split backstays (here we go-sensitive subject again:D )are you forced to install double backstays or are they/it just split to a certain height? If they're double are they set up like running backstays so you could ease the main out as until you start rubbing the lowers? Or do the chainplates attach to the corners of the transom so there is plenty of clearance? Where are the attachment points for the stays/shrouds of the mizzen mast(is that what 'that thing' is called)? What about issues like mast height and boom lenght? Are they calculated by some formula based on sail area or displacement or righting moment or is it less scientific and more asthetic?
Maybe the orginization should 'put the squeeze' on Bob Lincoln for some more info on that sporty Commander. How 'bout those other factory yawls-where are they now?
I'd appreciate it you could educate me here as you just don't see many sailboats period around this neck of the woods and a yawl is totally out of the question. I have a few good books here on maintenance, tactics, seamanship and the sort but nothing that really digs into these matters. thanks Tony G

[Mike Goodwin]

The boom height is misleading in the photo , Commander's look to have a higher boom , while it is a lower cabin you see .
Yawl's boom placement is the same for sloops & cutters .
The main thing is no "el kabong on the noggin " on any small boat .
You have to split the backstay for the mizzen boom to swing clear .I believe the split point is 10'up from the transom . The mizzen stands in the notch formed .The new stays are going to new chainplates on the outside corners of the hull , they could be on the transom , but my placement is more beneficial for the mizzen boom when eased off running downwind .
The after mizzen shrouds go to the same chainplates as the new backstays , the forward shrouds will go to a point on deck , just clear of the main boom's arc of travel.
An optional jumper stay can be rigged from the mizzen mast to the backstay above the split .
Running backstays are not a good idea on a deck stepped mast if they provide the sole support from aft .
The main boom should be clear of all rigging just as on the sloop , when you move the backstay to the corners of the boat it only comes forward marginally , and only the roach of the main will have more contact to the backstay if any at all .
The beauty of this setup is off the wind with a mizzen spinaker or staysail . Easy to set and douse , adds a lot of boat speed in light air and no one has to go on the foredeck .
Also when a storm hits suddenly , just drop the main and the boat quits heeling but is under control and balance is perfect .
You want to heave to for lunch or whatever , drop all but the mizzen , sheet it in hard , tie the tiller amidships and you will go backwards very , very slowly . Now drop the anchor and it will help set it for you by pulling straight back on the rode .
The only drawback is; hard on the wind pinching , the mizzen usually is backwinded by the main too much to be of use , so just furl it untill you bear off .

[commanderpete]

Just a silly photograph taken in Brightwaters in 1916.

Anita Stewart was a popular silent-movie actress.

My parents live in the house she built.

[Tony G]

Mike
It's way too cold to do anything boat-like here, how about there? Wait a minute-didn't you once post a story about sailing in a snow storm-I guess it's never too cold for you. We've been doing more snooping around, looking at yawls again and thought I'd reread some of the posts and look for any progress. Completely forgot I was going to ask you this back in Nov.,where are you going to move the main sail traveler to? Are you going to eat up some of that precious cockpit space or maybe do a cabin top installation?

[Mike Goodwin]

Tony,

As I get older , too cold becomes a higher temperature than last year . High 20's this morning ,may reach 45 by 3pm . It was near 70 last week , but the tide was wrong for a sail .

If you have the original Pearson mainsheet setup , you could step the mast between the blocks just in front of the lazarette hatch & still use the old sheet setup .( you will get a little rubbing on the mast when the sheet is all out )
I have a track that will have to be moved/replaced and it will be right aft in the cockpit spanning the seats and over the tiller head , more or less. As far aft as I can get it so I wont lose more than 2" of cockpit seats.

[Tony G]

Mike
A friend tracked me down a while back because his neighbor had this great little sailboat for sale. I had to look. It was a rotted-out c-scow that I had no interest in. However, the mast had recently been replaced with a shiney new extrusion and standing rigging to match. The owner wanted WAY too much at the time. It got me thinking about a yawl conversion though.
How is it you came to a yawl sail plan versus just adding an inner stay to the fore deck? From the Pardeys on down, everybody seems to praise the cutter rig and it's versatility but nobody seems to mention yawl rigs. Is it just because they have a cutter? :confused:

[Mike Goodwin]

Adding and inner stay is not where it's at for a lot of reasons;
1)It still would not be a cutter, but a double headsail sloop. A true cutter has the headstay and backstay the same distance from the mast , +or- 10% , so you have to move the mast back and make the boom shorter or the headstay would have to go on a bowsprit . All of this to keep the sail plan ballanced .$$$$$$$$$$$
2)That is where the dinghy goes.
3) the Ariel's jibs are small already , a bowsprit, on the otherhand would lengthen the sail plan .
4)The staysail would be so tiny as to be useless except in very heavy air.
5)The new stay would interupt the v-berth area

The yawl, on the otherhand;
1) is mostly inboard and easier to manage .
2) It would benefit on all points of sail other than a dead beat to weather.
3) Is cheaper as I have the mast and boom already.
4) I like the way it looks ( wanted a Triton yawl for nearly 40 years now )
5)Easy access antenna mounts.
6)Mizzen staysails and spinakers are a trip !You can do 6knots in a six knot breeze , which would eat up a 36' boat side by side , been there , did it !

I am mostly interested in improving extreme lightair sailing quality , 80% of my summer weather is less than 7knot breezes , and dollar for dollar, the yawl is the best investment plus a well cut 180% drifter .

[Tony G]

Mike
Alas after ten hours of working on 113 today I've completely stripped her of hardware, cleaned her above and below and am ready to start making a mess of her. I can't get the yawl conversion out of my mind and since I have alot of work to do in the lazerette I'm going to go ahead and glass-in some backing plates in the corners of the stern just in case somebody here can't stop me! Probably beef up the forward bulkhead of the lazerette to withstand the mast step and help carry some stress from the traveler. Because I haven't had the mast stepped since the morning I bought her I haven't a clear idea of boom clearance for locating the mizzen forward shrouds. I would like to keep from mounting them on the outside of the hull. Should be able to place the boom directly on the cabin top to get fairly acurate measurements. Any last minute advice? Tony G

[Scott Galloway]

Tony an Ebb,

I don't know nothin' about yawls. I cut my teeth on a cutter, and both boats that I have owned have been sloops. I realize that a mizzen sail has other advantages for self-steering, and for other purposes, but I thought that the idea of a double mast rig was to spread the sail area among a greater number of sails to ease sail handling, and to give greater flexibility. So if one is converting an Ariel sloop to a yawl, would not one wish to reduce the length of the mainsail boom at the same time?

If more sail area for light air sailing is the objective of course, the above would not be relevant.

[Mike Goodwin]

No change in boom necessary for yawl rig! The boom is well forward of the aft bulkhead and the mizzen forward shrouds dont need much forward lead of the mast . Remember , the shrouds angle back and the boom swings forward as it goes outboard , so if the base af the shroud is even with the tip of the boom when it is amidships , the two will never meet . There is not much load on the mizzen shrouds either , the sail should be about 12' luff and 6' on the foot or not much bigger . A 16' mast is all you need .

Scott,
A yawl, if also available as a sloop on the same hull , will 99% of the time have more sail area than it's sloop rigged sister . Think of it as a trunk rigged spoiler, not 4 doors .

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

Very interesting. Like I say, I have virtually no yawl experience, but still, if one were to rig a mizzenmast and sail on an Ariel with the as-designed mainsail configuration, the center of effort would move to some degree. I wonder what if any effect this would have on balance, degree of weather helm under windy conditions at various points of sail.

[Tony G]

Scott
I sometimes start to fret but then I remember C Pete's post of Bob Lincoln's factory Commander yawl. Good points though. Most of the time I get out sailing 'round here there isn't much wind so 'light air ails me' or else it's blowing 25-30 mph! I'd rather douse and run rather than motor sail. Tony G

[Scott Galloway]

Tony,

I appreciate the light wind concerns. I guess that I am remembering the leech on my 1974 90% jib ripping about a month ago in some pretty interesting and unexpected wind. Crawling around the foredeck in attempt to save a shredding jib while single-handing when the boat was healed at 35 + degrees under near-zero visibility conditions was very interesting. Then again, I was over canvassed with the full main.

The yawl rig is an exciting possibility for many reasons. I might be induced to give a mizzenmast a try were it not for the fact that my boat has an outboard in the well, so a mizzen mast would present an interesting obstruction. Perhaps there is a way to avoid that through the application of some sailboard technology to create a removable mizzen.

But then again, we could give the Yahoo engineless sailing group a try and see what a "jib boom" could do for your boat in the way of a "scutter rig": http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/engineless_sailing/lst

If you join Yahoo engineless sailing group, you will find that the group presents some interesting perspectives. A jib boom on a Pearson Renegade is featured under photos in the Renegade album.

[marymandara]

I worked Quite Hard to talk David out of converting MANDARA to a yawl.<G>

It's Funny to read this thread here, since we just looked at a lot of the same things! Our friend Jeff Maher is taking some pictures for us of the details of the Trion yawl he was helping to splash, and I think Dave will be putting them up on the engineless group once Jeff sends. There has been a bit of discussion between David and another member who is a Naval Architect on the topic as well, if anyone is interested.

Mary
Triton #397

[commanderpete]

I copied this from another Board. One guy's opinion about sloops, yawls, etc.:


Boats are systems and when it comes to one size fits all answers, there is no single right answer when it comes to yawls and ketches. A pet peive of mine is the mislabling of these rigs today and in particular the mislabling of multi jib versions. Either rig can have either a single jib or multiple jibs. When a Yawl or a Ketch has multiple jibs it is referred to a Yawl or a Ketch with multiple headsails. It is considered lubberly to refer to that rig as a 'cutter ketch' or 'Cutter Yawl'.

I lump yawls and ketches together here because the share many similar characteristics. Ketches, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. In the days before winches, light weight- low stretch sail cloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks, breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. It made it easier to manhandle the sails and make adjustments. Stretch was minimized so the sails powered up less in a gust and although multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls were so inefficient that the loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that would be spread out closer to the water. In a time of stone internal ballasting this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling. Multiple masts meant more luff length and more luff length meant more drive forces to windward. But multiple masts also meant more weight and much more drag. There are also issues of down draft interference, meaning that one sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails in front of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs. .

Yawls really came into being as race rule beaters. They are first seen in the 1920's as a rule beater under the Universal and International rules. They continued to be popular under the CCA rule as well. Under these rules, the sail area of jibs and mizzens were pretty much ignored in the rating. This popularized the masthead rig and the yawl.

There was a basis for not measuring the sail area of a yawl under these rules. On a yawl going to windward, the mizzenmast and sail actually produce more drag than they do drive. This is because the mizzen is sailing in really turbulent air and has to be over trimmed to keep from luffing which can effectively act as an airbrake. This is slightly less of the case on a ketch where the size of the mizzen is large enough to provide a larger percentage of the drive.

Downwind mizzens also are a problem. In this case they are forcing the main or foresail to operate in their bad air and so again they are not adding as much to the speed of the boat as they are taking away. BUT in the predominantly reaching races that were typical of offshore races of that era they offered a number of advantages. First of all on a reach the sails are not acting in the slipstream of each other and so each contributes a fair amount of drive for the drag produced. Also with the advent of lightweight low stretch sail cloths, mizzen staysails, which are great reaching sails, came into widespread usage in racing. Here again a ketch has the advantage of having a taller mizzen and so can fly a bigger mizzen staysail.

In comparing yawl and ketch rigs to sloops, the broad generalities are that for a given sail area a sloop rig will generate a greater drive for the amount of drag generated pretty much on all points of sail. That means that a sloop will be faster or will require less sail area to go the same speed. Sloops are particularly better than Multi spar rigs such as Yawls and Ketches on a beat or on a run. A sloop rig would tend to be taller for a given sail area. This means it would be better in lighter air but it potentially might heel more or need to be reefed sooner as the breeze picks up.

Sloops work best on boats with reasonably modern underbodies. Both are more efficient and so can point higher and make less leeway.

Ketch and Yawl rigs work best with heavier boats with less efficient underbodies such as full keels and Vee'd hull forms. These hull forms often need a lot more drive and the hull is the limiting factor in how fast or how close winded the boat will be. The yawl or ketch rig's lack of windward ability is less of a liability when placed on a hull that similarly lacks windward ability. Also, the ability of a ketch or yawl to carry more sail with less heeling moment also makes it a natural for a heavier hull form which often has comparatively little stability when compared to the amount of drive required to make a heavy boat move.

In theory the height of a Ketch should be shoter than a sloop rig but unless you are looking at a big boat or live in an area with low bridges the difference in height should not be significant. As to draft, the lower height of a multimast rig should mean less heeling and less draft required but this potential advantage is usually offset by the multimast rigs larger sail plan and weight aloft.

Much is made of the ketch or yawl's ability to be balanced to help with self-steering and also the ability to sail under Jib and mizzen in a blow. This is one aspect that a traditional ketch or yawl has over a traditional sloop. It is not so true of modern sloops. Modern (especially fractional) sloops can be easily depowered and that reduces the need to reef. With modern slab reefing gear, reefing is far more easily accomplished than dropping the mainsail to the deck on a yawl or ketch. In a properly designed sloop balance is just not all that hard to achieve.

The performance of all three rigs, both on broad reaches and in lighter air, can be improved by the ability to carry kites of different types.

In terms of comfort at sea, ketch and yawl rigs push the weight of the spars closer to the ends of the boat which can increase pitch angles, albeit, while perhaps slowing pitching rates. The taller rigs of a sloop tend to increase roll angles while slowing roll rates.

Then there are structural issues. It is often difficult to properly stay a ketch or yawl rig as the mainmast backstay often need to be routed around the mizzen and the forward load component of the mizzen if often taken by the top of the mainmast. It is also often difficult to get proper aft staying on the mizzen of a ketch or yawl as well. These structural issues are particularly pronounced on Yawls where the mast is so far aft in the boat that on a traditional boat it is hard to get adequate staying base widths.

Anyway, in conclusion, if you are interested in sailing performance or ease of handling, a sloop rig makes more sense. To me the only justification for the yawl rig today is solely romantic charm or a sense of history. I do not mean this to be a put down to those who love historic rigs, but for sheer sailing ability a yawl or ketch is a relic of another time or an obsolete racing rule. Still, if you live in an area that is windier and you like traditional boats, then a ketch or yawl is an interesting albeit complicated rig.