Handrails ARIEL

[Bob G]

Replacing the handrails out on the cabin top - outside. Apparently they were parked in the garage too close to the garbage when I was out of town. They have gone to the dump. I believe they were 4-loop handrails, but had different measurements than the standard ones in the marine catalogs. Does anyone have the length of the handrails handy? has anyone replaced theirs with the standard issue from the major marine stores? does anyone have any better suggestions? Thanks!

[Bill]

The cabin top grab rails on Maika'i were replaced a couple of years ago. The replacements were made from teak 3/4" x 4" x 40-something to duplicate the originals and match the holes in the cabin top. If I were to do it again, I think I would fill the old holes and redrill for the stock store grab rails.

[Gary Yaniga]

Have replaced old ones withmarine stor ones. Filled in old holes and redrilled for new ones. Feel this is the easiest way to go.

[Mike Goodwin]

Fill the holes and use the store bought , much easier and faster.

[mark mccarty]

I have to replace the handrails on #l72. All the standard sizes locally available have centers for the fasteners narrower than the originals (11 1/2 inches.)

Is there a source for handrails that match the original fastener dimensions??

[Bill]

It appears that the handrails are Pearson specific :) We took the old one's to the local boat carpenter to copy.

[Hull376]

Try this article at Sailnet by Don Casey. "Get A Grip"

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caseyd0045

Cut the link and paste it into the address line of your browser.
The second half describes how to make your own. Looks pretty easy the way Mr. Casey describes it. You make two at once as mirror opposites on a single board. You use a 3" hole saw that attaches to your drill to get the curves right, and then route the edges. I'm going to try it sometime this summer.

[mbd]

I dredged this thread up while looking for "instructions" on this task. FWIW, here's what I did.

I decided that I wanted opposing handrails on the cabin top and inside. I bought 4 x 4-loop teak handrails. They would be a little shorter than the originals, but much beefier. The old holes were filled during the recent recore and deck job.

[mbd]

I tried to find how others had done the same thing, and of course came across Tim Lackey's write-up here (http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/decktrim.htm#Other%20Deck%20Trim). It seemed like a good method, except that I thought I might mount the "drilled through" handrails on the underside to avoid having to seal the ones on the cabin top, and I thought "bungless" handrails might look a little nicer on top as well.

I looked around for fasteners and settled on #12 x 3" bronze wood screws with a smooth shank. I was thinking 3 1/2" might be a better length and get more of the screw into the handrail, but just couldn't find them locally. (Internet was an option, but I always wait until the last minute to get things and I get tired of paying shipping when I can just drive down and pick up what I need and get started.)

I also found these really handy charts (http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Wood-Screws/) at BoltDepot.com. Probably everyone but me already knows this stuff, but I found it very useful to determine my hole sizes. The "head" size was figured out by trial and error on some scrap wood.

[mbd]

First, I'd drill a shank-sized hole through the lower handrails. Then, I'd drill a "head-sized" hole about halfway through that so the screw would fit into hole - sort of like this...

[mbd]

Once I determined the proper depth for the "head-sized" hole, I cut a block of wood and placed it over the drill bit to insure I wouldn't drill too deep into the rail.

[mbd]

Then I drilled... I tied to nylon line around them to protect them from the clamp and to keep them together so I could drill all of them at once.

[mbd]

Once the lower handrails were drilled, I attached the pairs together and nserted the drill bit through the already drilled lower rail and started a pilot hole in the other rail.

Lacking a drill press, the idea was to pair up the handrails and keep their respective orientation once I started drilling so the holes would match up. I marked the flat parts of each with an arrow pointing towards the bow and an "S" or a "P".

[mbd]

Here is a drilled set with the screws inserted.

[mbd]

Another view...

[mbd]

After the drilling, I gave them a quick sanding, wiped down with acetone to remove the oils, and started varnishing. First coat was 50-50 varnish and thinner. Next had more varnish, then just straight varnish. I lightly sanded with 220 grit before the last two coats. I got 6 coats on before I installed them.

[mbd]

The installation was done over 2 days. The first I determined where I wanted them, then drilled, over-drilled, and filled with epoxy. The next day, I drilled again (shank-sized holes), counter-sunk each hole to allow more sealant around the screw holes, then attached the rails from underneath.

I used the lower rails to drill pilot holes from the top since I wanted to measure the handrail locations on the coach roof rather than from the cabin. (I hope that makes sense.) Then put them underneath and inserted the screws to attach the upper rails. I was quite concerned that the holes wouldn't match up once I started installing the upper rails. But, with much cursing and fiddling, miraculously, they did - enough anyway.

As I was attaching the first one, I was not comfortable with the length of screw protruding through the coach roof and decided to get longer screws. I settled on #12 x 3 1/2" silicone bronze screws from Hamilton Marine. They didn't have the "pan" heads like the bronze ones had, but they did have the smooth shank which was necessary so I could turn the screw while inserted into the lower handrail, and tighten the upper handrail.

They came out very solid. So far, I haven't "bunged" the undersides because I wanted to make sure they wouldn't leak, and down the road, I may want to remove them when I start cleaning up the interior. No hurry. :)
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Also, at the recommendation of the guy at Hamilton's who sold me the second set of screws, I purchased a bar of Ivory soap and scraped some off on the tips of the screws as they were being installed. He said it would help them go in easier, which it seemed to.

[bill@ariel231]

Mike

Nice job, next you'll need the canvas covers for the topside teak

cheers,
bill

[mbd]

Looks like the new handrails ended up a little inboard from the original installation and the aft end just cleared the radio by sheer luck...

[mbd]

next you'll need the canvas covers for the topside teak
Too late for the hatches. :)

[bill@ariel231]

I also need to do something about covering my hatch with canvas... (to protect the varnish on the companionway slides). there are a couple classic boats in newport that have complete sunbrella suits for the whole of the coachroof (a 20's vintage Fife and a 1905 NY30). Out of my league but it's still a source of inspiration for sewing projects this winter...:)

[Scott Galloway]

I like the handrails inside. They could have saved a few bruises from being tossed across the cabin.

But I don't like hitting my head on things below, and I don't like drilling new holes in my boat unless I have to do so. So, I built these handrails from teak to use the old epoxy-lined holes.

[ebb]

Really like Mike's HowTo on his doubled handrails. Impecable two for the price of one methodology, great photos too!

Double inside handrails mean you can 'walk the sole' holding on to the overheads. They are the best solution for safety below.

For a descent reason: a continuously relandscaped headbone, I'm looking at putting the inside handrail under the windows in the Ariel. That means in steadying oneself, you'd be facing the uphill side. Or downhill......

Has anybody done this? How did you do it?

[bill@ariel231]

Ebb

I've also been thinking along the line of handholds below the portlights. I once came across a nice compact handhold on a late '40's Olin Stephens designed yawl. The line of trim below the dead lights had a gutter along the top that let you grab the top edge with your finger tips. she was a Nevin's built boat so I'm not sure it was an S&S or a Nevins inspired handhold... here's a sketch:

[mbd]

Not being a fan of drilling holes in the decks (or cabin sides), what about "extending" the base of shelving below the deadlights with hand holds, kind of like some companionway steps I've seen, only horizontal? Now if only I had a picture... :rolleyes:

---------------------------------
OK, back from Google. Suppose that the sides of one of these ladders was a shelf with built-in handle... maybe extend them out a bit from the fiddles or little do-das (whatever they're called) that keep the books on the shelves. Then add Ebb's form and function...

Or... how about REALLY overbuilding the "do-das" so they can function as handholds similar to Bill's? Still no holes in the deck, but the books may get in the way when you really need that handhold.

[mbd]

Here you go Ebb. I was going to suggest building handholds into all your furniture (i.e. dinnette, galley, etc.) and was looking for pictures of something like this...

[mbd]

...but then, I noticed these up under the windows. (This is from a 1966 Wing 25 currently on Yachtworld.)

[mbd]

The only exterior shot. Looks like the rails might be screwed in? Can't really tell...

[mbd]

And side handrails in another form from a 1961 Rhodes Chesapeak 32. More utilitarian, but it blends right in. Perhaps the lamps are distracting me...

[ebb]

Mike,
That Wing is nice - looks like a people boat!

Yer right those choice rails look like they're bolted thru the cabinside. The windows are a lot smaller than what we have on the Ariel!

I don't know if you have noticed but nearly every drawing in the Ariel Class Association Manual shows SMALLER WINDOWS than what we actually have. See pgs 104. 105, 146. 147 for instance. We do not have an 'as built' drawing of the Ariel in the Manual.

Here's somemore:
The lines drawings by Carl Alberg on page 144 of the Ariel/Commander show a sheer line with a pronounced curve in it!!!
Ariel #338 has NO CURVE IN ITS SHEER. As certain other skippers have verified.
Also the same line drawing has a detail that shows the rudder shaft on the Ariel as 1 1/2" diameter.
There are no official drawings or schematics of the original rudder with its as built 1" shaft.
This lines drawing also has, presumably by Alberg
the actual measurements of the waterline to the deck, fore and aft.
Whether that includes the molded toerail, I'm not sure. Lines often go to the deck. So you have 1 1/2" to take into account if you're locating your Ariel's designed WL.
Any way here are the actual numbers in the designer's own hand (Design # 33, by the way) - Everett, what did you do with the curve in my sheer? - so evident in the Wing!!! I think that nice sheer makes the Wing a smaller volume boat than the Ariel.

Anyway, It'd be nearly impossible to duplicate that grabrail The Trimmer has because it would be right on the cabinside/deck curve in the Ariel cabin. The windows being so low. Don't know: MAYBE I'll report on this as my windows are still out.

Another way is to have only three attachment points - the ends and the middle - and have the handrail at about the level of the lower framing of the light. Or even higher so window frame fastenings could be easy access Might look pretty good! It would also go thru the cabin side and maybe have two bolts per point - making six bolts in all - with a fat round mahogany finger wrapping Wing rail that oughta be plenty strong!

Don't know that I'd put the center handrail attachment between the windows unless they have gone thru the epoxy fill process that some people do. The actual large windows the Ariel has means that the narrow center of the cabin between the windows is quite flimsy befor filling.

[mbd]

Maybe the exterior bolts of the handrails could be set up and double as attachment points for storm shutters?

[ebb]

:D More I think about it more serious I am about that interior side rail idea.
First thing I notice: it is very comfortable to run the hands along the bottom of the windows walking thru the cabin. We're not very wide in an Ariel.

Second thing is that there is PLENTY of room to run the handrails under the windows. At least it looks like it. The inside has more cabin side depth because the deck is included in the measure. So actually the handrail would be higher under the windows rather than lower - because you'd no doubt be fastening thru the cabin side.

Third thing is that hand rails under the windows would also be something to grab and haul yourself up with - out of the low settees for instance.. And something to grab while sitting down gracefully. Or frantic in a seaway.

Fourth, Buck Algonquin may have just the fitting. Like the idea of curling fingers around a varnished rail. Especially around a round rail. The B.A. hand rail fittings are like napkin rings with TWO legs. The ring is just under an inch in diameter with the legs spread on separated pads 2 3/4" wide. (I'd guess that would put the fastening pair about 2" apart, one on top of the other installed.) The height is 2 3/8". Height to the center of the ring is 1 3/4". If the ring was filled with ash or white oak, that would allow about an inch behind it off the cabin side. Just enough for my mitts. So it's a pretty tidy fitting. Instead of the usual single fastening thru the middle of your rail, you have two separated fastenings at each attachtment point helping to counter the leverage on the rail. So it's Stronger. Also have some Bronze to look at.

I have not yet seen a live one.
But as an image the fitting looks handsome
www.deepblueyachtsupply.com
has them under 'deck hardware.'
Pricey: you'd need six at $30.83/$33.35.

Could copy the width of the legs the bronze fitting has and bandsaw out something similar in solid wood. If designed so that a single thru bolt would produce a similar wide bearing on the cabin side, you'd end up with rails as robust as these bronze ones would give you. imco.
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If you made the all-wood handrail up as a single dowel with three attached leg/brackets - glued up as a single piece - it'd be a piece of cake to mount it with three 5/16" bronze bolts drilled right thru the top of the rail. And it would emphasize the nice curve of the cabin side. You might increase the rail/dowel size to 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" and go with all mahogany. Leave plenty of room for fingers so they can't get caught between rail and cabin. It's a pleasure to take a piece of square stock - eight side it with the table saw - and round it up with a plane. Or that handy little PorterCable belt sander.
15/16" dowel required for 'stringing' on the B.A. bronze rail fittings imco needs to be a tougher wood.

[bill@ariel231]

that's a nice fitting... looks like it would make a great place to dry stuff out too, and space below the window should be clear of anyone seated on the bench below.:)

[mbd]

FWIW, Deep Blue Yachts (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/) is where I purchased my mooring bit. Best price I could find, and they are very responsive and helpful. I'd use them again in a heartbeat.

Something similar to those handrail fittings seem to show up on Ebay all the time. Occasionally, I've seen bronze ones too. This one is from Nautical Notables (http://stores.ebay.com/Nautical-Notables). Looks like they have a few other options too.

[ebb]

You know that BuckAlagonquin fitting with its strange 15/16" diameter must have been designed for 7/8" TUBE. Definitely a generous slip fitting!
I think extra strength is gained by using a single piece of tube from bulkhead to bulkhead under the windows - as you would with a wood dowel. Maybe tube could be wraped in tape where it sits inside the fittings.

No other common tube or pipe diameter comes close to that diameter in the fitting. I worry a little about making the wood fit the fitting. The scantlings are really not hefty enough to be safe from breaking. What do you guys think???


But suppose we went all metal...

The castings are expensive. But get a load of this...
[section here revised for clarity]
Onlinemetal has a large range of diameters and wall thicknesses of tube and offer 316 and seamless at a price. All marine catalogers sell only 304 welded. This is low end tubing - lower might be tubing made in China - who knows?
7/8" tube unless otherwise noted - per foot price.
Online/304/.049 (3/64") seamless $16.71.
................................welded $5.70
Online/316/.049 seamless $21.76
......................welded $12.82 (.065-1/16" wall)
____________________________________

West Marine/.049/$8.17
Defender/.049/$4.33
............/.065 (1/16")/$4.66
Jamestown/.049/$10.52
Hamilton (per foot cut) .049/ $5.59
............................../.065/ $6.99
Who's taking a bite out of YOUR wallet?
(I know, I know, you get what you pay for,
obviously you go with whom you trust...
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Hamilton has some interesting 316 s.s. 'looped' rails with flanges that might fit the cabin side - not sure.
5 foot long 1" looped handrail with center fitting - $126
1 1/4" diameter for $160.
Also a heavy duty version: 1" - $200. 1 1/4" $208.
These ready-made handrails aren't the most elegant (compared with bronze and varnish).... but inside under the windows, covered with curtain and swagged with wet towels, they might be just the ticket. I don't know if they fit - 5 footer just might - there is the problem with the curve of the cabin side and three close spaced holes per flange....3 of them per rail. I like the 1 1/4" size, something real to grab!
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Ready made rails like these 5' Hamilton's aren't going to work with the curve of the cabin - the mid attachment point would have to have a substantial block put under it. Don't think that would look so hot. To look right, any side rail would be bent to fit. Could be a glue-lam that is routed to shape, or the cabin side is gentle enuf for a rail to be sawn from solid stock. If three points of attachment seems too light more could be added. Might copy the traditional cabin top rails outside, but beef up the scantlings I think side rails would get a lot of use and bear some big yanking loads.
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WM cat. right across the page from the rail prices shows those one post 'leaners' ( Bayliner rails) in 316 and zymak for about half the price of the bronze ones which are straight up. Jamestown in their master catalog has a big choice of powerboat rail fittings - some could work part of a side rail in the Ariel cabin. The problem (for me) is the spread/pattern of the fasteners in the available flange of these rather small fittings.

Anyone????

[mbd]

A couple of pics of how James Baldwin set up interior rails from his website: Atom Voyages (http://atomvoyages.com/)

[mbd]

And another. Lots of interesting details in these photos.

[ebb]

Mike,
Nize interior isn't it?
I've looked at that first shot for years.
It's a successful lesson in how to achieve a homey non-claustrophobic openness in a small space.

Could make a pattern out of thin ply to get the curve and length of our cabin and cut rails out of 4/4 or 5/4 mahogany and get something close to the Baldwin model. Definitely the Stradivarius of cabin siderails. Especially if the finished varnished rail followed the curve of the sides.

I didn't think siderails when the window surrounds were filled. Thrubolts will make a really robust rail, and along the bottom of the windows more attachment points could be designed in, rather than less. Like the cabintop rails.

So, when I drill thru for the bolts I'll probably find the space hollow between the liner and the side. I'll find one of those 2oz syringes in the epoxy locker, make up some gell, and squirt in pads of epoxy and silica so when the rails are snuged-up nothing gets bent outof shape.

Overhead rails are often lagged with oversized screws, through the cabin laminate, into the outside rails. Jerry Powlas, GoodOldBoat's tech in their current issue explains how difficult that process is. And imco the installation is flawed by the use of lags - rather than thrubolts. Also the marine-store wood is often thinner than it ought to be - this type of railing could wrenched out at the wrong time.

Jim's siderails are definitely The Best!:cool:

[atomvoyager]

Mike of Sea Glass asked me about this so I'll post a reply here. I'd like to keep up with a few forums such as this one, but don't have the time lately to read everything.

The interior handrails under Atom's deadlights are held in place by 1/4" diameter stainless flathead screws from the outside. After drilling the holes through coachroof and inside cabin liner there was a gap I filled by injecting thickened epoxy. Then I redrilled the holes and countersunk them from outside. The screw heads were set deep enough so I could cover them with putty and then painted them over. You could use roundhead screws with flat washers or hex head lag bolts type if you want them removable and don't mind the heads being visible. You might even thru-bolt them with the nut under a wood bung.

The handrails are very useful for holding yourself in place with one hand when sitting in the windward bunk and for pulling yourself up from the bunk. They're also easier to grab sometimes than the overhead handrails when working at the galley or passing through the salon or just gazing out the windows while the boat is being tossed around.

You might get away with it, but I don't recommend using standard-sized handrails for this location because the sheer load when lifting yourself out of the bunk seems to put more side loads more often on these than handrails in other locations. Standard handrail bases are narrow in width and length. You might be able to see from the photo up the thread that mine are custom made with all bases except the ends being long enough for two screws in each base. I can hang my entire weight on these and they will not break or even flex noticeably.

James
Triton #384 Atom

[mbd]

Thanks for the info James!

[josh#74]

I have new handrails for #74. Are there any pro's/con's I should know about when using screws from the inside? I don't want to cut holes in the top of the handrails if it I don't have too. I am in the wet northwest. Thanks.

[bill@ariel231]

Josh

some things to think about ...

1. make sure the deck will stay dry. when these boats were built it was common to drill a hole in the deck and assume the caulk would keep the balsa core dry. Best practice today is to remove a half inch or so of core around the hole, seal the core with thickened epoxy and re-drill the hole prior to installing deck hardware. (several boats have examples of this technique on the gallery pages)

2. choose your caulk carefully (i used 3M 5200 a dozen years ago with no leaks to date), but any of the adhesive polyurethane calks are a good choice (silicone is not recommended).

3. for screws. most of the boats on the gallery page appear follow pearson original construction (i.e. oval head wood screws installed with finish washers). use the longest screws that will fit.

4. an astestic decision you might want to think about: store bought hand rails will sit veritical on a horizontal surface. Our coach roofs are cambered in two directions. Pearson's solution (and one i followed on A-231) was to cut a 15 degree bevel in the base of the hand rail to make the hand rail stand vertical on the curved coach roof.

cheers,
bill@ariel231 :)

[ebb]

Some spare change
to add to Bill's excellent practical advice and methods.

I see some benefit in using machinescrews to attach exterior handrails. They are are little harder to do: you may have to predrill the holes on a drillpress to make sure they go in and come out straight.
Also you have to counterbore the holes so you can bung them which can be done more easily and precisely on the drillpress.
This method gives the longest fastener and also makes the fasteners into clamps. They also allow finessing the tightening after initial caulk set.
I'm not a fan of this method - imco it is better to put everything together wet including the screws and snug the nuts on the screws once only so the rubber seal doesn't break or tear.

So here's an arguement: instead of white caulk to match the deck I'd use a caulk that matches the wood.

I'm convinced that thin rails installed with a curve make them stronger and less prone to bending. The curve follows the natural curve of the cabin. And looks good.
It's pretty easy. You need to draw the curve line, get together a bunch of blocks, use double sided carpet-tape (with the fiberglass core) to stick them on the deck to hold the curve. You probably will find that a storebought rail already has the curve built in.


Once the rail is stabilized you'll be able to drill the fastener holes thru the deck from the top. That's a plus.
Where the holes go thru to the inside of the cabin, why not take a holesaw (1 1/4" to 2") and using the new drill hole cut out a disk in the liner. Just the liner.
Mix up some filler gel with epoxy and aerocil, put a glob in the hole and glue the disk right back in place the way it was. There is a 1/4" to 1/2" space between the cabin and the liner - so you are making a substantial unseen backer for each fastening.
When it is set redrill the hole.

You've sealed the hole from waterleaks getting inside the liner and migrating to the shelves.
You've also stabilized the liner somewhat and you aren't going to cave it in anymore when you cinch up the screws [like Pearson did and distorted the hell out of the liner decades ago].
It means you won't need to use fenderwashers to spread the load through the thin liner -
and once faired, touched up and painted only the fastener head will show.
imco


Handrails on the cabin roof probably get used more for parking butts - secure footing when moving around on the roof. They need full rounding and therefor in skinny storebought rails the counterbore for the plugs would be fairly deep. And I'd set the plugs using the wood colored caulk.
A solid shot of rubber thru the rail top to bottom, never leak!

Here's one vote against 5200.
Hybrid Life Seal (on paper) will stay pliable longer than polyurethane or polysulfide, both get hard and crack depending how your deck cooks.
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Bill's first point above about protecting the core by scooping out the core around the hole and filling with thickened epoxy to seal the rest of the core off from water intrusion and resulting rot - is extremely important. It is more by luck than anything else that you keep water out of any hole you make in a boat.
Found that a 2 ounce syringe (available from plastic and fiberglass suppliers) is an excellent tool to squirt thickened epoxy into the holes and get them completely filled.

[josh#74]

I am comforted that most ariel owners use screws from the inside. I understand that using machine bolts instead of screws is probably stronger in the long term. But I really don't want to cut holes in the top of the handrails. But I am definitely going to start using a hole saw from the inside. No more bent nail! The West Marine bought handrails are pretty beefy. I shouldn't have any problems, If I do at least the core will stay dry.

[ebb]

Hey Josh,
The bent nail deal
is to clean out a small doughnut hole around the fastener hole where it goes thru the deck CORE. The core is sandwiched between an outer frp deck layer and an inner layer of fiberglass you can't see. The deck is a sandwich of the top layer, a balsa middle, and an inner layer of fiberglass. The balsa core needs isolation from fresh water which turns balsa into tuna fish thru any hole you (or Pearson) put in the deck. So you create a waterproof dam by undercutting the balsa between the fiberglass layers a 1/4" or a little more and seal with thickened epoxy.
Common restoration practice.

The cabin liner is an entirely different molded SHELL that was put in when they assembled the boat to make the accomodation look pretty. The liner is NOT structural. It is cosmetic. They intentionally made the liner a little smaller to make it easy to fit it in when they put the deck and hull together.

The space is just a result of funky manufacturing. Of course as a dead air space it also acts as insulation.

Keeping fresh water out of the core is a different thing than keeping water out of the space between the bottom of the deck (which you can't see) and the liner. If water gets thru the deck sandwich it will collect on the inside of the liner shell and run to the sides under the side deck and drip down onto the shelves.:eek:

Holesawing a hole in the liner is not a structural issue.
As it exists the liner really makes it impossible to hold the outside rail on properly. You'd make a better connection putting your screws thru the sandwich alone if you didn't have the liner. But because of the liner you need access to the fastening. The liner is a bendy unsubstantial thing - that's why the disk-out filler-in idea. Just an idea, but that's what I've been doing with deck-mounted stuff on Little Gull.

[mbd]

Just to add to the discussion: I've been very satisfied with my installation of the new handrails. I've had kids swinging from them and never worried. It has been nice to be able to insert a screw driver from below and check for tightness. A couple of the bolts on my old ones had stripped or loosened, and I could ever tighten them up without de-bunging from the top, which was very annoying.

I removed mine this year because I'm chasing down a mysterious and annoying water leak and wanted to start from the top down and be sure the rails weren't the culprits.

Also, my varnish is wearing through after 2 seasons. Six coats worked well for one season, but is wearing through after two. In hind sight, I should have applied a couple of maintenance coats last season. But, it was nice to be able to just unscrew and remove them and varnish away in the basement.

I'm not a blue water cruiser, so don't feel the added security of the through bolting method was necessary. But, I'm happy with strength and the easily maintainable setup I've got now.

I WILL definitely use Ebb's holesaw idea from underneath however! Great idea!

[ebb]

Mike,
Water gets in as we know thru the unmodified windows.
The frames do a pisspoor job sealing water out.
As constructed by Pearson there is no way to keep water from leaking into the liner thru the window openings.

Another egress maybe thru the sidelights if you still have them.

Or thru the wood instrument panel if still there by the companionway.
Or any thru-hole instruments on either side of the opening.
Any cracks or seams in the c'way woodwork might let water into the liner shell. Mine was put together with disfunctional silicon, which could have actually channeled leaks into the liner.

When I took the c'way hatch slide apart I remember seeing that the liner shell was open in the front across the opening.
Both the cabin molding and the cabin liner molding turn up here and are covered by the the woodwork. In Little Gull's case the cabin molding edge was really ragged and wasn't making a good dam keeping water out. That was my diagnosis.
There was in fact even a ramp of plastic across the front of the opening that would have made it easy for water washing around in there to go down into the liner space. I didn't test it.
After the metal slides came off, the interior liner space was exposed along there also. (just looked up the old decommish photos.) This meant that water getting into the channel between the wood 'logs that the hatch slides on and the inner coaming could have gotten into the liner.


Ah, leak forensics, difficult, but so much more fun than sailing!

[josh#74]

I thought the cabin was cored for some reason. To me the hole saw idea seems like it could work pretty well on the underside of a deck in certain situations. My new deck is mostly solid glass so I won't have to deal with core issues any more.

[ebb]

Hey Josh, you're welcome but I'm assuming you didn't see post 45.
The Ariel cabin deck is cored on the top (NOT THE SIDES where the windows are) and along the side decks (back to the cockpit.)

Using the holesaw is ONLY to open up a space around a fastening that is drilled through the LINER

after the fastening hole has been drilled through the deck sandwich which has the core in it.
(assuming the hole is being drilled through from outside)

The independent liner is about 3/32" thick. It is a gel-coated SHELL.
It is NOT actually attached or glued to the underside of the deck.
It is NOT part of the deck.
There is in most cases an actual space separating the bottom of the deck and the liner shell.
You can push against it and bend it!
It is NOT the hard and stiff cabin sandwich which has a core and is an entirely different structure
and a different kind of structure.

When the holesaw is touched to the liner it will instantly cut a disk out of the liner.
You would not and should not drill any deeper. Unless you want to start a hole in the underside of the deck or the cabin roof.
The holesaw is only a convenience to make a neat shape in the liner.
The idea is to put in a solid pad of thickened epoxy in the empty space the holesaw revealed -then glue the disk the holesaw made back on so that you can (after the epoxy has hardened) cinch up a fastening without bending the thin liner shell.

You would not use the holesaw, for instance, on the roof in the V-berth area forward of the compression beam where there is NO liner. In the V'berth area when you look up you are seeing the inside of the cored deck WITHOUT any liner over it.

[josh#74]

Thanks Ebb, I have read somewhere, where it was recommended to use a hole saw on the inside of a cored hull. In basically the same manner as you describe. Only to remove the inside layer of glass, so that you can remove more balsa and get a better seal from the rest off the core.
Of course they also recommend laying more glass over the patched hole.
Anyway, I understand what you were trying say now, Thanks.

[ebb]

Josh, sir,
Sealing off the core in a fastner hole, or any hole in a balsa core, is a bit tedious. Excavating or reaming with a BENT NAIL doesn't work too good. Not recommended.

Better is to use a 5/64" or 3/32" Allen head right angle wrench/key that has its short end shortened.
Need a vise to hold the wrench and a Lennox bi-metal blade in a hacksaw frame to cut the wrench.
If you can't cut it nicely, use a ViseGrip to hold the wrench, grind/score the metal on the edge of a grinding wheel and break it off with another pair of pliers.

You need at most about a 1/4" turn. That's about all that can be managed in healthy balsa. That will make a 1/4" deep cave all around the hole.
Leave the ragged burr edge on your new reamer.
If the action of this reamer is too rough when you try it in the hole, you may want to make an even shorter one. You can begin the process by first attempting to gouge out some of the balsa exposed in the hole with a dental pick. Creating a space for the reamer to begin spinning.
This is a dangerous trick. You can run into something solid - not balsa - that will stop the process all of a sudden. Bend or break the Allen wrench. If you have a macho drill it could twist your wrist. Run the drill very SLOW.

You can try a longer bend reamer after you clean out with the shorter. So you might make a set. Even slightly longer ones get dangerous! Use a variable speed drill or one you can run REAL slow!
Healthy sandwich core is quite difficult to ream because you run into mini spikes of solid polyester that tie into the endgrain of the balsa. The fiberglass married to the balsa inside the sandwich is not smooth.

Another way, another method - as you point out - is to drill the hole for the fastening thru then take a larger bit and drill partially down to the inner fiberglass. Difficult.
[McMasterCarr has a range of 'cap-screw counterbores' with a smooth pilot that will drill a slightly large hole than the pilot: a 1/4" drilled hole/pilot will make a 3/8" 'counterbore'. Not really enough for a rim imco, but you might find something else in the catalog.]



Imco a BETTER way to do this is to drill the larger hole first with a brad point bit or a saw-toothed Forstner bit* which will give you a flatter/cleaner hole thereby excavating more of the balsa.
Do not drill all the way thru the composite sandwich. Make a cup. Maybe no more than 1/2" deep, there-abouts.
Don't break thru the bottom layer of fiberglass. Especially where you have a liner inside.
Imco you can even leave balsa in the bottom of this short hole because it is endgrain and whatever is not hardened with ancient polyester will soak up the new epoxy.
Excavate around the hole.
Then fill the hole with thickened epoxy and later drill the correct size fastener hole. That way you won't need to ductape a thru hole to fill it. Canceling another extra step.
All horizontal fastener holes can be premade this way. If these circular fillers are large enough, it won't matter if the fastner hole is off center a little.
I would personally do it this way where you have fasteners going thru the cabin roof. The holes can be made - the balsa protected - then drilled thru the liner where you can deal with the space behind the liner as you wish.



(IF you do drill thru the whole sandwich with a large bit: Excavate balsa around the hole. Tape off the hole inside (you'll HAVE TO make a holesaw disk cutout in the liner), and fill it. But it would be a good idea to GLUE a backing plate on over a large hole 'fixed' this way

Stanchion bases might be good with extra sized hole doughnuts. Remember on the Ariel you'll run into solid glass near the toerail. Aft of the cabin the deck is solid (no core) glass. You will still want backing plates.


This can go on.
But surfice to say,
First, befor you fill with thickened epoxy, douse the hole and the balsa liberally with plain runny epoxy.
Close the hole off inside with ductape or carpet tape (which has a more aggressive adhesive), if you've drilled thru, and fill it with liquid epoxy. Then, paper towel at the ready, pull the tape back in a flap and 'drain' it. THAT is a seal! Then seal the hole back up and continue with the thickened stuff.
Small holes that you will redrill exactly in the center imco can be filled with liquid epoxy and left to set. The liquid will soak in to the balsa, a little or a lot, just fill later. If you are mounting a fitting with tube rubber a depression around the bolt or screw shoulder may make for a better seal.

Have fun!
Good exercise going in and out and running all about.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
*Using a Forstner bit that is designed for wood, using it on old fiberglass will void any sharpness it ever had. And REsharpening a Forstner bit is not for sissies.
Rockler has HSS individual SAW-TOOTH Forstner bits in the $5 range.
Rockler also carries HSS 3/4. 7/8 and 1" brad point bits: $13 to $21. They would last longer than the Forstners and be easier to use.
Buy specific bits for a job (like attaching track to the deck) You'll be tossing the bits after drilling the holes.
[imco. long winded, sorry]