Large Portlights

[bill@ariel231]

Good news for anyone looking for replicas of the Ariel/Triton large portlights (in bronze). I just picked up the first set of castings from Roger Winiarski at Bristol Bronze (401.625.5224). It looks like they will make a fine winter's project.

After suffering with the fractured originals, I thought I'd try having new ones fabricated a bit heftier than original. I supplied Bristol Bronze with a set of patterns approx 1/8th inch deeper in section in the hope of avoiding broken frames 10 years down the road.

I'll forward pictures as the installation process moves ahead.

For anyone so inclined, Roger still has the patterns. He can supply in any state from rough castings to ready-to-install.

cheers,
Bill@ariel231
:)

[mbd]

Pictures? Price? Please? :rolleyes:

[Robert Lemasters]

Your portlight replacements should look great in bronze. I have a question about bronze, it's not a little work to keep bronze clean and shinney. Is there some kind of varnish that can be applied to keep them from tarnishing? My portlights on my Commander have been replaced with bronze portholes and they tarnish in about a week after being cleaned and polished.(Thanks for mentioning Bristol Bronze they still have my Pearson Commander potmetel insignia things) :eek:

[Bill]

I have a question about bronze, it's not a little work to keep bronze clean and shinney. --snip-- My portlights . . . tarnish in about a week after being cleaned and polished.

That's the beauty of bronze. Let them weather and soon you have the look of bronze statues -- a low maintenance finish. :) Never touch the bronze on Maika'i.

[bill@ariel231]

Pictures? Price? Please? :rolleyes:

I'll have to look at my receipts. I had the castings processed to a sanded finish. I'll take care of the machining and polishing for Ariel#231. rough price was in the range of $500 or so in this state. Suggest calling Bristol Bronze for details (i don't know what the final price for a machined and polished set will run).

Bill@ariel231

[ebb]

Hello bill@ariel231

Can you describe please how the inner frame is connected to the outer frame?
My aluminum frames were held together with seriously small machine screws that were screwed into uncomfortably tiny blind seats.
Thanks!

[bill@ariel231]

Hello bill@ariel231

Can you describe please how the inner frame is connected to the outer frame?
My aluminum frames were held together with seriously small machine screws that were screwed into uncomfortably tiny blind seats.
Thanks!

The originals appear to be 8-32 machine screws. I'm hoping the deeper section will buy me a couple more threads in the outer frame. Based on the construction of some other port glass retainers, I've heard suggestions the threads should be through the outer frame (it saves time, it will hold better). however, I'm still going to try the blind seat per the original, worst case, I'll move up to 10-32 or 10-24 machine screws. :)

[edited 5 dec - I spent sunday drilling and tapping the frames.. the final implementation was 10-24 thread. I still get 8 turns or so per fastener]

Attached is a cross section:

[ebb]

OH OH Bill I just read your first post, Sorry! But won't edit this below...YOUR patterns, VERY cool, NOW you MUST show and tell!!! As a woodworker I know how much effort went into making that pattern perfect. But a big plus may have been (when I disassembled the lights, discovered that all frames in and out, except for a few details that could be taken care of at the foundry?) were ONE pattern.

Thanks Bill,
This now sounds like you are doing all the machining.
Roger is not providing any of this ? For 500 smackeroonies.
What did he want for dressing up the castings?
Theres is a lot of work in that if you are not set up for it on site.
I'm guessing these frames are not actually paired UNTIL they get machined as a pair?
Are you doing the blind tapping also? My frames are very flat in profile leaving no room for a mistake in drilling. And if I remember, no more than a couple threads in the hole. Pearson depended on the squeezability of the cabin liner to draw the frames together. (Your drawing shows a much thicker frame than 338's aluminum ones.

Went to the trouble of restoring and powder coating the aluminums redrilled for thru bolts with heads countersunk on the exterior. Much stronger but not ocean proof nor as classy as bronze with hidden fasteners that Winiarski has talked so long about befor offering these frames - just wanted to know what he had there.

What did he quote for ready to install? Polished, predrilled and countersunk inners? As the Admiral once pointed out in this forum - once they are paired you have two separate sets of the 4 paired frames. Lotta work.
Thanks again.

[The bronze frames I've lusted after that I've seen on The Admiral's boat and West Coast Tritons SEEM to be close in profile to the aluminum I became so familiar with. Bristol Bronze would had to have new full sized patterns made for the new bronze unless they have finally found original patterns to cast from. They would have to stay with original stuff since you cannot cast using existing frames as the result would be smaller overall frames. 338 has barely 1/4" lap all around on the existing cutout - a smaller frame could not be used!
I'm sure bill@ariel231 checked this out with Roger. It will be my first question if I decide to go for the gold er bronze.] And what do these retro frames weigh, is it an issue?


Bill231 You Gotta Give Us a Pic ASAP! ....and an OA length/width measure?
TOUSAND TAK!!!

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

By the by, your work has now passed into a sort of patternmaker's D.Jone's Locker, a nail on the wall in his office - as Roger does not return patterns!!!

[bill@ariel231]

aye pattern(s)... actually there were a total of 4 parts to the pattern assembled into two "matched plates" (left/right each with an inside/outside for lack of better terms).

outside dimensions of the final part are:
bronze: 11.0 x 23.75 inches
original: 10.75 x 23.5 inches

The cutout is close to the same:
bronze: 10 1/8th x 23.0
original: 10 1/8th x 22 7/8ths

As for the state of the castings, The ones I've taken delivery on have flat mating surfaces. The work to go is the drilling and tapping (hey for me that's the fun part). I'm happy with the price, it's way less than the guy who wanted $20K for just the patterns. As I recall, that vendor's price was $1800 for the set. I recommend calling Bristol Bronze for the actual price since this is still the prototype phase. Based on my talk with Roger, the price for ready-to-install set (through drilled for the sake of simplification) would probably be somewhere around $800 plus or minus a boat unit).

Here is the pattern for the "right inside/outside"

[ebb]

Can make models, but don't really know the procedures.

Got a powder coated 'luminum frame right here
and the length matches your bronze exactly.
Width of my outside frame is exactly 10 13/16".
That means your 3/16" wider width is a great benefit for getting more 'tooth', a scoch more overlap, on these yawning openings in Ariel 338. Not being sarcastic.

The thickness of the aluminum frame, with its melted polyester coating is 9/32" - 1/32" more than 1/4". It is hard to imagine how a threaded hole could have been machined into the center ridge of these frames. The smaller the screw the more threads per inch - could be why these aluminum originals were fastened with 6/32. Swear to that. About a half dozen had failed in 338, usually lower ones where leaking water had corroded the fastenings. Actually the aluminum corroded, less so the ss screws.

'1/8" added to the roundness.'
Let's say that makes it 3/8s from the center of the radius to the flat inside, that will make it more easy to get the 10/24 to find meat. Jamestown has sb 10/32, much to be prefered. And provide 4 strong seaworthy windows not depending on silicone snot to hold them together.

Now that 338's liner has been filled around the perimeter of the openings, and the cabin sides made rigid, there is no fudge adjustment using the flex of the liner when clamping the windows in place. So a deeper thread socket will make it easier to custom each screw to the length needed to install watertight windows. Something to aim for, Thru bolting is a viable option.

It may be possible to install them so solidly and well that storm shutters would be needed only as a last resort. Because the windows are not attached to the cabin but 'float' in the opening I've been thinking of using BoatLife's hybrid silicone-urethane caulking-adhesive with 3/8" lexan as the lens.

Very curious how you will go about prepping your frames and hope you will show us how it goes!

THANKS for making the bronze frames happen for us.

Maybe the price would go down some if we would put together a group order

[Sprite]

Has anyone done ss in the frames. I have earlier model aluminium frames.
The ones Pearson got from a dutch company so I think they are metric.
Anyone know who does casting on the East Coast for stainless for these
windows or portlights.

John

[bill@ariel231]

Early model Tritons shared the same aluminum casting with the Ariels (Triton #15 is stored next to Ariel #231 this winter, we've compared the original parts they are dimensionally identical). Some Triton models (e.g. Triton #381 built in 1963) were originally shipped with nickle (or chrome) plated bronze port light frame.

For those with deep pockets, chrome is always an option..... :)

[Bill]

Has anyone done ss in the frames.

Pearson had the same window frames cast in ss for the Vanguard. With a pattern, it becomes your chioce of metal. BB, however, is unlikely to have the casting capabilty for anything but bronze. Maybe aluminum, but I don't believe he does anything in that metal. IMHO, bronze is the way to go. Probably last longer than ss, too ;)

[bill@ariel231]

pictures, pictures.. here are the frames as I got them.

Image #1 - bronze frame vs. aluminum original
Image #2 - interior surfaces of bronze frames
Image #3 - view of inside/outside frames mated

I'll update once I've drilled and tapped the frames.....

enjoy,
bill@ariel231

[c_amos]

Bill,

Those frames look great! I sure would like to have a set myself.

Anyone else interested in a group order?

[Sprite]

Bill

Where I have an earlier model. He would have the pattern for it?

John :D

[ebb]

bling bling all same size

[skylark]

My Vanguard large portlights are the same. Originally chrom plated bronze, now after replacing the "glass" they are bare bronze. I haven't seen any ss portlights in other Vanguards, either.

Fred

[bill@ariel231]

The project is still progressing (slowly)... here are the frames in the process of being sanded and drilled...

I still hope to mount them early january (as long as my other projects & work allow)

[ebb]

Bill,
The extra bulk makes those bronze frames of yours look really strong!
And strong deadlights imho are very important - that is a lot of area in those four windows - I'm seriously thinking about talking with Bristol Bronze.
If I took a similar shot of the aluminum ones I have the difference would be immediately seen.

Keep us in the loop!

[grindel]

When the aluminiun was rotted on Grindel (ariel n°70) we have just put plexiglass milled capscrew outside, cap nut inside: cement silicone (for capscrew)and armed foam joint betwen glass and roof. we put approximately 25 screws for the turn of the port-hole and we have also litle increase the port-hole to increase the width of the joint. we have make that there is more than 15 years and let us not have had any problem.
that changes a little the pace of the boat.
we always remove the "liston"(i dont't know the US name for the stainless part which connects the hull to the bridge) and fill it with resin and fibergass and at last gelcoat.

[ebb]

welcom aboard, grindel! :D

'liston' is a better word than 'rubbing strake' for the stainless steel 1/2 round cap that is screwed into the hull/deck seam on the Ariel. A source of leaking in nearly all Ariels. 'Rubbing strake' is a borrowed phrase from wooden boats and bears no resemblance to the inadequate metal cap that hides the seam.

Having no liston along your sheer gives #70 an updated 'modern' look!

Have you also changed the small opening ports for plexiglass also?

Beautiful boat and a beautiful set of sails!

[CapnK]

She is a pretty one! Welcome aboard, grindel!

I like the stern pulpit, too - that is the first one I have seen which is shaped to echo the design of the bow pulpit.

[grindel]

thank you .
yes we also changed the small opening ports for plexiglass also. and we can't open it but the baot is aired is good. since this two modification(portlights and, liston) there is no laek in it.
i was french and i don't understand " I like the stern pulpit, too - that is the first one I have seen which is shaped to echo the design of the bow pulpit."
posted by epyphanie
*the word in blue

[Penokee]

Hello Grindel,

My French is not too good, but I will try:

The "stern pulpit" is.... le truc qui est fabrique du fer inoxydable, et qui se monte sur l'arreire du bateau. C'est le contraire du la meme chose sur le proue. Ephiphany admire ce type de "pulpit" parce qu'il repete la forme ("echo") entre le proue et l'arriere.

J'espere que mon Francais vous aidez! :)

--- Rachel

[grindel]

thank you i understand now. your french is very good

[ebb]

Not to forget us here!

Avidly looking forward to detailed photos of your retro fit!

While slabbing on sheet plastic windows to the cabin is modern and 'clean' (especially the grindel installation) and very strong, the traditional aspect of handsome bronze frames is most desirable.
Polycarbonate is the best choice for an offshore Ariel. Altho the French obviously know how to make acrylic better than we do - 25 years is an age for exposed acrylic sheet material!

Foam gasket to mount the windows is most interesting, makes for easier replacements as it isn't adhesive. But I'm not aware of a similar material in the States that would take decades of extreme range of temperature exposure and sun degrading - and still remain waterproof. (Foam EPDM? Foam Butyl?)

Imco smoked lexan lights in those substantial bronze frames would make a great combo. What are you planning on, bill?

[bill@ariel231]

to all:

sorry a theatre job has been occupying all my spare time the past couple of weeks...

my plan is 1/4 inch clear lexan. I used 3/8 inch plexi in the original refit. it didn't leave much room for gasket material once fastened in place.

more to come after next week...

[bill@ariel231]

Alyce and I installed the portlights this weekend... Our method is really the same as those you will find described on Tim Lackey's site for Glissando (Triton #381)...

The first step (a couple days before install) was to glue the lexan to the exterior frames.

In preparation for the installation, I had on hand a box of 100 10-24 flathead fastners, a couple of 3" 10-24 machine screw with the heads cut off (to act as alignment-pins during the installation and a box of flat washers (to be used during the installation while the sealant was curing)

The sealant of choice for our install (this time anyway) is a "Life-Seal".

The pictures start with the end of the demolition phase.... Removal required the use of a heat gun, several screw drivers, a putty knive, utility knife and a smattering of "boatyard vernacular"

[bill@ariel231]

Here we are on the port side. All of the old frames are out and the excess sealant has been removed:

[bill@ariel231]

Next step, we masked off all of the parts of the boat that we didn't want to smear with silicone.

While Alyce applied sealant to the exterior, I readied the frames for installation. With two of the headless 3" 10-24 machine screws installed in the outboard section of the frame to give me something to hold onto from the inside and a bead of sealant on the frame itself we were ready to install.

Since both members of the installation team are covered Silicone at this point in the installation, I'll try to describe in words rather than make a mess of the camera....

With the frame held in position on the outside, the interior frame is placed over the guide pins (e.g. the headless 3" machine screws). While the whole mess is oozing sealant, the interior and exterior frames are temporarily fastened with the 10-24 flathead screws (with as many flat washers as needed to ensure a tight fit).

Here we are with the last portlight frame installed. Time for some cleanup...

[bill@ariel231]

plenty more cleanup to do on the interior...

[bill@ariel231]

With the goop cleaned up, lets have a look at the frames from the inside:

All of the washers you see under the flathead screws have since been removed and the screws cut to fit. The washers are a time saver here since there is no time to cut them to length while the frames are being fastened for the first time.

[bill@ariel231]

What does it look like from the outside? ... here's the starboard side:

[bill@ariel231]

and the port side:

[bill@ariel231]

So far so good.

The installation was easier than the originals (I've never had the privilege of installing a complete set of unbroken aluminum frames). Who knows, if enough new reproduction parts enter the market (from either bristol bronze or the owner of the Rostand patterns) maybe a secondary market for original frames will develop... my left-over unbroken frames have since found a home on Triton #15.

Ariel 231's frames are in. They are still polished.. now the $64,000 question... Do I leave them bright or leave the finish to mother nature? My personal inclination is to apply an automobile clear coat to the interior frames and let the exterior go (they are bronze after all, not gold).

Plenty of time for that once we are in the water... time for bottom paint!

cheers,

bill@ariel231

[ebb]

Looks like GOLD to me!
Juicey! Fantastic!

[bill@ariel231]

Thanks Ebb...

If anyone is planning a trip to the Maine Boatbuilder's show in Portland 17-19 March, Roger Winiarski is planning to have a set of frames at the Bristol Bronze booth.

http://www.portlandcompany.com

Bill

[mbd]

Very very nice Bill! Thanks for the pics and the inspiriation!

The signs of spring: Candian geese, robins, and the Maine Boat Builders show...
I'll have a whole new perspective this year. :D

[Sprite]

Did anyone ever
think of using neoprene gaskets. Just as
an extra precaution against leaking frames.
I was thinking of using on the inside and
outside of the cabin.


John

[commanderpete]

Not sure if Pearson used the same portlights on the Alberg 35

A set for sale on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Full-set-of-window-frames-from-a-1967-Pearson-Alberg-35_W0QQitemZ110141856492QQihZ001QQcategoryZ26448QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bill@ariel231]

they are the same... (the alternate alberg 35 port is an oval)

[mbd]

Are those B-R-O-N-Z-E ?!?!? :eek:

[bill@ariel231]

The seller's note on the ebay page shows they are aluminum

[mbd]

Thank god!

[ebb]

Those frames have a golden tint to them. Too bad, huh?

"No corrosion" would be something to consider as a replacement. Especially if they go cheap. Also the ALL the screws still work. That's something!

Just measured 338's aluminum ones using an american tape. 23 3/4" long and 10 7/8" width. That's larger than what the seller states.

Even a 1/4" difference in either dimension could make it impossible to refit a slight smaller frame onto an Ariel - if that is what the 37 has.
Assuming that all Ariel's had the exact same size frames over the years.

[bill@ariel231]

a little fiberglass work can make anythig fit...:)