Tenders

[Mike Goodwin]

Who uses what ? What do you like or dislike about your tender ? Do you tow or stow ?
I'm working on a design for a tender that can be towed or stowed on the foredeck , we'll see .

Mike G

[Mike Goodwin]

I agree , 8' is too much for the foredeck & I bet you have 4' of beam too . 6'6" seems the max length that will fit and allow access, however limited and not foul the headsail .
One of my design requirements is to allow access to the forestay and anchor handling , now if it only works as a dinghy remains to be seen .

[glissando]

James Baldwin, dual-circumnavigator and owner of the Triton "ATOM" has a small plywood pram that is designed to combat the size and stowability problems. It's built with the stich and glue technique and is about 6.5' in length. Check out his article at:

http://www.tritonclass.org/mir/ATOMSTENDERS.htm

This dinghy actually looks usable despite its small size.

On our Triton we have an 8' Fatty Knees that will just fit on the foredeck if need be. It's definitely awkward. We usually tow it.

Tim

[D. Fox]

Steve, can you deflate yours and stow it in a cockpit locker? That seems the ideal approach to me. I don't have a tender but am looking for one, and was thinking of going in that direction.

Dan

[commanderpete]

Here is my old dinghy after a 50 mile tow to NYC.

Looks even worse now after sitting on the side of the garage for years.

Please build me something new or I might get tempted to fix it up.

[Theis]

I have a Walker Bay 8ft (West Marine) which I tow when I cruise. It does not appreciably drag the Ariel/slow it down. It is not as stable as the inflatable, but it rows, I would surmise, one whale of a lot easier and faster.

[Brent]

I'm planning on it, but I need to get #66 in the water first :(

Considering building an 8' stitch-and-glue plywood/epoxy dingy. Can't recall at the moment, but I remember seeing step-by-step instructions in a book. I think "Good Skiffs" was the name.

There's a raffle going on locally for an inflatable, trailer & outboard. That'll do if I win; not that I'm counting on it, but the odds are much better than the state lotto :D

[dasein668]

Dasein tows a Quicksilver 230(?? I can't remember the model...) which we inherited from my in-laws when they upgraded. It has an inflatable floor and keel, and is rated 2 persons/610 lbs. Its extremely stable, but rows rather like a barge. It rows so badly that we bit the proverbial bullet and bought an outboard.

But it was free....

It's about 7 feet long.

Given the choice, I'd prefer a rigid tender... better rowing ability, if nothing else.

[Janice Collins]

I have a Walker Bay (8 ft.) just like Theis. It rows great with one person in it. Add a second person and stuff and the ease diminishes. I love not having to deal with an outboard though.
Its light, so it tows great. But it is too tipsy, not that easy to pull up an anchor with .

It comes with a sailing rig, in fact they race them here off of Water Island. Is made of polyethylene. I can clean off the marine growth pretty easy from the bottom.

My favorite dinghy was a 6' something fiberglass. It rowed great , was sturdy and when we attempted our sail to St. Martin, ( that's another story) it fit on top of the cabin top (just aft of the mast. For other long day sail s, it went up on the foredeck.

For me now, the only way I would pull up a dinghy on deck would be an extended passage.

[ebb]

has anybody used a foldboat? had experience with one? why is or isn't it an option?

[Theis]

I have heard of rigid kayaks being towed, but foldboats might not be a good solution.

As I recall, they are quite heavy, and storing them on the Ariel, because of the bulk even when collapsed, could be difficult. They are too big to fit in the cockpit lassarette, and too heavy to carry below. I may be wrong in these regards, and my information out of date, but that is my recollection.

Lastly, I don't know if there is enough space on the Ariel to assemble a folboat. I would suspect not.

These are thoughts based on my recollection and experience, but I don't know about the latest thing. Another alternative is an inexpensive blow up rubber raft. It is cheap, works, and is lightweight and relatively compact when collapsed.

[ebb]

sorry, by foldboat I meant not the kyack ones but the polypropoleen- hinged dory shaped thingees you see at boat shows. Seem to remember they shut 3" flat but they're still 10' long whatever. 100% plastic with flotation. Has anybody used one? I thought it would easily tie along the sidedeck.

There is also an obscenely expensive folding hardbottom red inflatable whot sails...that I also have seen at boatshows. Cost as much as an Ariel. Tinker something it's called. The queen of england has one in her bath. Has anybody sailed one?

Gee, It's slowly coming back... remember a website where the guy had a little dingy that he had added inflatable tubes to the sides, Deflated it fit on his deck or cabin top.

[Janice Collins]

i'M CONSIDERING AN OCEAN KAYAK, IT COULD be tied to the side decks, it would be in addition to my dinghy though.
Just for the fun of it and to increase my scope of investigating shorelines.

[noeta-112]

To satisfy the curious as to who's got what .... here's a pic of my ....whatever brand it is.... tender. I have no idea re manufacturer but it is 9 or 9 1/2 ft. and quite stable. Rows pretty well and has seat floation fore and aft. Picked it up in Stonington, Me, from a lobsterman who was gettin outa fishin!

[noeta-112]

This might be a bit betta

[ebb]

The folding boat is called Porta-bote.

www.porta-bote.com

I guess by the unearthly silence on the subject that nobody has experience with these?

If it wasn't so ugly it seems like the perfect solution for a hard tender for the Ariel. Do you think they'd loan us one for some Class sea trials??

[ebb]

Capt. mmrgsrtmn, suh!

First, jist let me say I LOVE this stuff. Inventing something and making an effort to get it to market - getting a patent - is the only way left that Any-old-person (Everyman) can still succeed with his own imagination. Those that make it big are our heros. It's kind of the lotto of the imagination.

Sometimes it's a righteouse idea and a satisfying, workmanlike solution. The patent will be thumbs in the armpits. The only reward will maybe be bringing astonishment or joy to the onlooker. Sometimes it is just a good idea taken one little step further. Mike Goodwin, who got swallowed by a schooner. got us started on nesting prams There's lots of them (plans) floating around.

Psss s s t, hey skipper, got this great idea for a 3 piece nesting pram that fits over the front of the cabin on the Ariel.....

But check out this marvelous Seahopper first:
www.seahopper.co.uk/
www.seahopper.homestead.com/frontpage.html
www.shorebase.co.uk/boating/sailing/hoppy/hoppy.asp

[c_amos]

So I started out borrowing a paddle boat from the marina to go back and forth while I was on a mooring awaiting a slip.

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=1716&stc=1

Then, I bought a very used sandpiper 8;
It rows well, even with 2 adults and a Lab.


Length: 95"
Width: 47"
Depth: 18"
Weight: 75 lbs.
Capacity: 2 people /425 lbs.
Motor: 3 HP

Like this one; Link to Sanpiper 8 at boaters world (http://www.boatersworld.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13188908&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10051)


I have had some of the problems you expect with a hard tender. I had it swamp once in a squall, and it becomes a very effective drogue. I would have hated to be in a bad place (like running an inlet) when that happened.

The mfg says it weighs #75 but mine feels about twice that (the foam may have some water in it).

I loose something like .5 - .75 knots when I tow it.

So I started looking for an inflatable, hoping to be able to fit it in my cockpit locker. :rolleyes:

I found a good deal on a used Avon R 280. I arranged the shipping, and should have known something was up when it was too large to be shipped by anything but truck freight! :eek:


So I get this thing, and (like everyone says) it rows like a barge.... No, make that a barge towing an anchor.... :(

Link to Avon web site to see the R-280 (http://www.boat-finder.com/1380/details.php)

I tried putting my Yamaha 6 on it, and got it up to a whopping 5.5knots!
Then I put my evenrude 2 on it, and it went just as fast. :confused:

It is very stable, and while I have not tried to tow it behind my boat I doubt it would be any harder to tow.

The only place I can imagine putting it is rolled up on the foredeck, where it would be tripped over, just like a hard tender on the foredeck would. Then the idea of deflating and rolling this monster on my deck underway is kinda hard to wrap my brain around.....

So, with the 'too large' R 280, I get the west marine flier in the mail and see their smaller R-200 inflatable for $200 off list.

I go to the store and look at it. It is much smaller folded then the Avon, looks downright suitcase sized. Cool.... or so I think.

It does not fit in the cockpit locker either. :mad:

So;

How many are using hard tenders? Are you doing this because you gave up on inflatables?

Has anyone ever found an inflatable that would fit in the locker?

Should my R-280 plane?

[Bill]

C_ , well, you've tried all the others, why not try the Porta Bote???

[c_amos]

I now have a fleet of 3 dink's, 4 if you count my coleman canoe.

I am thinking that each were at least feasable, but I can't say that I see stowing a 10' Taco anywhere on my Ariel. :eek:

Now, if they made one that would flatten, then roll up.........

But I think that would look a lot like swimming :D

[Theis]

I'll come back to the Walker Bay 8. It too slows me down about a half mile per hour, but tows well, and is easy to row. When I carry a small engine, I put the engine in the lazarette when draging the dinghy on a long stretch.

I have only had it fill up once - after getting hit by a waterspout, tornado, whatever. That was the least of the damage. Tearing the main in half was the most of the damage. But in most rain storms, I only get a couple inches at most, and although that slows me down a bit more, it is not that big a burden. It is easy to get the water out with a Thirsty Mate.

However, recognizing that I may not want the ultimate drogue, I probably will put a self bailer in the bottom of the boat this spring. The dinghy also serves as a valuable resource for garbage, etc. that accumulates as I am cruising.

I haven't found anything better than trailing a dinghy (The Walker Bay is my third). I pitched my inflatable decades ago because it took too long to make useable and was a tremendous drag - empty, and took too long to deflate and put away! most of the time, when I am cruising, I want to get ashore, or get the boat off a rock, or whatever, and don't want to take a half hour getting everything ready.

[ebb]

Porta-Bote. Taco option to a doughnut or foam sandwhich.

Could lash the 8 footer to the cabin on the Ariel. Or a couple 2' stanchions next to the the cabin side. Have to come up with some custom clips. Or a sleeve. At 9' X 2' X 4" it certainly seems possible. Opening it aboard the Ariel is not easy, but then, an idea:
The folding boat could be opened and go thru the labor intensive propping procedure in or rather ACROSS the cockpit coamings. Probably have to do something clever with the stanchions and lifelines. Would be 'safe' there - assembly and disassembly - and you'ld need chaffing gear on the coamings and to launch over the side and get it back on board. Bet you can lift the pointy end and haul it aboard! Boom could be helpful.

But at 47# that sounds like a piece of cake!
Does that include the seats and oars and the cat rig and the electric motor?

Don't think the Porta-Bote can be towed in anything rough, don't know. Any swamped tender is a danger. But it can be rowed, unlike an airboat. It can be rowed, they say, swamped, still floating. It can't be punctured. It's foam doesn't deteriorate, or fill with water, that's something. And I too, except for actual experience, find it harder to conceive getting an airboat ready to use or stow aboard an Ariel.
You have to think of the tender in a possible lifeboat mode. The new WalkerBays have waterwings that look good and add to their versatility. Porta-Bote has a lot going for it too except the assembly part. If I go to the boat show this year, I'm going to ask the P-B person for a demo, or hands-on myself, and try to imagine doing it in the cockpit. ;)


For long distance cruising, another place to rig the Porta-Bote might be along either side of the cockpit to cut down on wind or spray. If you could safely secure it there, so it couldn't be torn away, that would be the most convenient place!

[willie]

The folda boat looks interesting. I have a blow up rubber raft, but can't imagine being able to use it much. It's fun for the kids to play in though.
I'm looking for stitch and glue plans right now. Already have the epoxy, glass, so should be a bit cheaper than the folda boat. I think towing something would be fine for this summer excursions. Can always leave it home if we don't plan on going ashore anywhere. It would work for a place to put an un-ruly crew member also! lol

here's a fun link, pretty small boat, but might work with the additions of the first builder (John the frog gigger) :rolleyes:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/herbert.mcleod/skiff.htm

[Bill]

Former member, Ken Longe, was talented in the woodworking department. He designed the step extension found in the manual.

Ken also builds small skiffs for personal use and as part of a high school program. We published the plans for this boat:

[willie]

Bill, That's just what i've been searching for. Been on this computer about all day, looked at a bunch, seems like finding the right dinghy would be easy! NOT!
So where do i find the plans? Google came up with some pig latin.... :rolleyes:

[Bill]

Bill, That's just what i've been searching for. . .
So where do i find the plans?

Need to check the files. The article was three or four years ago. I'll let you know what I find. If nothing else, I can give you Ken's mailing address (not computer literate). Very nice guy. Even though he had to sell his Ariel (wife wanted a power boat), he still writes a couple of times a year.

[Bill]

Ken Longe's story appeared in the January, 2003, newsletter as the lead article. The skiff building article appears beginning on page 12 and includes Ken's home address. Pages 18 & 19 of the newsletter are the "plans" for the skiff. Ken says the skiffs are easy to build "and a good use of your time."

We have one copy remaining of the Jan, 2003, newsletter. The bidding can begin . . . ;)

[epiphany]

I have a Walker Bay 8, haven't towed it behind the Ariel, but did use it for 2 years behind the Com-Pac 23D. It tows fine, paddles fine, is tough, and like Peter reports I saw around 1/2 kt drop in speed (average) when towing it. Have towed it on trips up to 50 miles in length, though thru no major storms. I wish I could bottom paint it - stowage on deck is too cumbersome. ( Just made a sail for it a week ago (pic below). Plan to shape a daggerboard and cobble together a rudder for it, should be fun this summer on the bay, and I can go sailing regardless of whether or not Katie Marie is in sailing shape. :) )

Last summer, a couple transients stopped in at the marina who I just *had* to paddle over and have morning coffee with when I saw them - an older couple, and a younger couple, on a CD 28 and CD25 respectively (Carl! :D). They both had Portaboats, and spoke highly of them. They'd been out for about 90 days, from Chas up to the Chesapeake and back. Sometime in the next year or two, I plan to make a nester for the foredeck, using pink sheetfoam and epoxy instead of wood. Light and stowable, I hope.

(Edit: Bill and C'pete - Due to circumstances (yet to be seen as fortunate or not) with a certain female, I have been moving my stuff this past week. I'll be scanning newsletters later this week. If approved, I could post a scan of than particular article post haste, sometime later this week.)

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/4/IMG_2366_web.JPG

[tcoolidge]

Had a friend who carried a portaboat on his Islander 30 and loved it. Said it was easy to handle, easy to row and very stable. He was one of the odd ducks who valued function over form to the degree of finding ugly but functional a thing of beauty though. Have looked at them as an option for my Ariel but have concerns about stowage. Only logical place seems to be along the cabin trunk, which has some drawbacks- blocks light from entering, ruins the graceful lines of the boat, takes away side deck room going forward, interferes with inboard jib track. Securing them to the lifeline stanchions might work but the thought of green water coming over the boat and smacking into it gives me visions of stanchions ripped from the deck and other such unpleasantness. So in the meantime I'll stick with my WB 8, which has served well for many years. It does slow me down a bit but when I'm going anywhere that I drag a dinghy along I'm not usually in a hurry anyhow. Have also found it does remarkably well in rough conditions. Takes on surprisingly little water although I always keep a knife handy just in case I need to cut it loose. A good cover would probably eliminate what water is does take on. And it's a little disconcerting at first when it surfs alongside (and ahead of you if the painter is long enough) in a following sea.
Have been toying with the idea of building a two piece nesting dinghy that would fit over the cabin ahead of the mast but so far it's only in the theoretical stage. Too many other things to do, like sail and sand and paint. Maybe when I get everything done. Yeah, right. I forget. I own a boat.

[willie]

So if i build something like this, stitch and glue method, add a skeg for rowing/directional stability....

http://www.cajunsecret.com/cajun.htm

And another link so you get the idea...

http://www.unclejohns.com/boat/default.htm

What will it be like getting in and out of, from the mother yacht?
My only experience with doing that has been down in California, looking at an Alberg 35 on a mooring. Had to take a small pram out to her, back to shore a couple times for gear, etc. Was quite an experience the first time! I think the little square dink was about 6'x3', and had about 2'' of freeboard with me and gear. Fun time. Those folks just happen to have the salvage outfit involved with the 2 masted square rigger on the beach down there now. getting some info from them i'll post later if anyone is interested. Nice folks. Anyway,

I like the idea of the flat bottom double ender for ease of construction, and think it would work. Looking at about 10' so i can fit pieces from 4x10 luan ply. If i make the bottom wider, like about 40"?? i think it would be stable enuf to get in and out of.Might be more on the lines of a drift boat. Would put some foam under a couple seats, and some oar locks, etc... Any ideas?

[c_amos]

Porta-boate (folding tender) review on Sailfar.net Link to sailfar.net thread on Tenders (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=131.new;boardseen#new)Scroll down and take a look at replies #35 and #40.


C_ , well, you've tried all the others, why not try the Porta Bote???
Thanksfully, Pixie saved me the trouble.

[drm901]

I really didn't want to tow anything, and there sure isn't enough deck area to stow a boat, so this became the leading candidate. I was thinking the side of the cockpit lashed to the lifelines was the right place. Out of the way if you need to get to the foredeck. And it rows well (according to them).

But 50 lbs will get heavy if you are lifting it up on deck every few days. And if it takes 30 minutes to break it down and set it up, there will be a lot less trips to shore if the boat isn't ready to go.

As of today, I'm back looking for a very small inflatable. I had a small one before that sat on the stern pulpit rail, sideways. Blocked all views aft, but it was fast to launch.

[tha3rdman]

Anyone thought about these ( http://www.campnboat.com/ ) a fold in half 13 foot boat. Still waiting on a reply as to if it is water tight when folded, and if you can unfold it in the water. be nice to pull along a littel extra storage, in a 6.5 foot package to unfold a 13 foot boat.

[commanderpete]

Frank sent me this pic

[commanderpete]

You don't see that every day

[frank durant]

Pete....word has it the skipper on #P22 hauls anchors,cleans fish and opens beer out of the cooler !! Wonder if she has a sister??

[commanderpete]

Here she is

Just needs some more practice

[ebb]

Can tell the guy in P22
is a heavy smoker.

C'pete, 'you don't see that every day';
How DO you come up those photos?:eek: :D

[dasein668]

C'pete, 'you don't see that every day';
How DO you come up those photos?:eek: :D

Pretty sure that's from Caddyshack. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0080487/)

[commanderpete]

Nathan has it. Funny movie.

Some pics and videos here

http://www.carlspackler.com/homage.html

Of course, this is the best part

[dasein668]

It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and you've got the stock market beat.
But the man worthwhile is the man who can smile when his shorts are too tight in the seat!
--Judge Smails

http://www.greenapple.com/~andyshupe/videos/lq/flyingwasp_lq.wmv

[Howard]

I have a 8'6" Maestraal (Mistral) inflatable with a wooden transom and slat floor. Planes with a 6 hp motor and stows below when deflated. Tow it most of the time but it will squeeze on the foredeck if you are motoring. We also tie a tandem kayak to the side when going overnight cuz it is fun for the kids and can get some fishing in.

[Sea Smoke]

Walker Bay 8. Tows politely, easy to move around, rows well, tough, can handle SWMBO and myself. I'd like to figure out a way to get it aboard, but having towed it around the Maine coast for 8 years, I'm not much bothered by pulling it behind. In a good rainstorm, it does collect water, but it's pretty easy to haul it up on deck with a handybilly and dump the water out.

[ebb]

'Lo Sea Smoke
Dink named Whisp, of course?
Misty?

[Sea Smoke]

Close. The gaelic word for smoke, spelled Smuid, and pronounced Smudge!

[ebb]

http://www.seahopper.co.uk/K2_2006.htm

Stowaway in the UK has developed a fiberglass version of their famous wood erectorset dinghy. This one looks simpler, just as shippy, and obviously tougher than the plywood ones - and since carrying a shell tender on an Ariel is pretty impossible this collapsable kind of thing has to be taken seriously. Can't imagine going offshore with an awkward and rather dangerous lump on the fore deck. Even a nester.

I'm sure the price is too high. But assume it has to be cheaper than the wood ones. If one could afford it tho, the sailing version seems ideal. The text suggests they may stop production of the wood and concentrate solely on the glass. Their sales will soar!


I'd be interested in why you and I would or would not go for something like this take apart? O pine opinions?
Aside from the price and the hot-in-the-sun dark blue color of the panels!


They may still make that 6' smidgen version that you stowaway under your setee cushion. This K2 tho is a respectable 10 feet long and infinitely better looking than a folding purtobote. Rig it to the cabin side?
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

Well, calculating the 40 kg weight for the hull alone - that's over 88#, plus the spars and such - and that's too much. They're going to have to develop a smaller and lighter one befor I'd really be interested. What are they, nuts? The challenge is to go lighter, NOT heavier! Plastic and glass is heavy stuff. And it has to be thick to make it stiff. Hey Mike, where you get a deal on carbon fiber?
(Thinking someone should come up with a thin (3/16") composite panel of wood and some plastic like kevlar or oriented strands. The kevlar or carbon micro-threads might be laid in the glue lines to make a technical marine super-ply like maranti.) Believe a folding pram is the only way to go for a cruising A/C.

BUT,
for dreamers like me, it's not impossible to imagine a custom shell dinghy on the Ariel cabintop under the boom extending over the companionway with a removable stern piece. Under 50#! Probably couldn't have the vang. It would look kinda weird - but the shell would serve two purposes. Hot dinghy dodger!:D

[mbd]

The Nov-Dec issue of GOB has a nice write-up/review on a folding dinghy. Also some other very good articles: one on the Triton Ariadne currently residing in N. Carolina which made its way from CA by way of the Panama canal. But the owner has done some interesting and functional cruising mods, another on an Allegra (if I remember correctly), a 24 foot version of the Flicka. Deifinetly worth a read.

[ebb]

Mike, There was for a while a 24' Allegra for sale. I have pictures of it on my kitchen cork wall. Man, I really like what they've done - the interior turns all my toggles on.

As for a dinghy, and the plethora of ideas and materials we can borrow and use - it may be that a CABINTOP PRAM is the way to go for an Ariel cruiser. The fold boat is great minimalist stuff. It still has to be assembled - and disassembled. Where? Maybe on cushions - to protect coamings - across the cockpit.

The idea, tho, of unlashing some lines, undoing some hooks, and evah so nicely lifting - with the boom - the dink into the drink...
almost seems like it's been done already. Can SEE it, right?
As a tender the shell would be short and wide and odd looking, but I bet it's do-able. Short wide and flat mean weight carrying ability - only problem is seeing forward when it's mounted on the cabin.....! There are plenty of plans available for ideas. I've already AXED 338's hard dodger idea (too heavy), so I may be looking into this myself.

I sub to GOB so there's a copy here some place.

[mbd]

I can get more details for you tonight when I get home - but this fellow has had his folding dinghy for 20 years or so - I think it was made in the UK. (Good grief - I'm too young to have such a bad memory! Damn those misspent years of my youth...)

Or, if you can get your hands on a copy of the GOB - this one's a particularly good issue...

[mbd]

Googling them came up with some interesting websites:

http://directory.boatdesign.net/detail/957.htm
From this page: "Boats Folding Dinghy and Rob Humphreys innovative high performance sportboat kits."

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/product-compint-0000606495-page.html
http://www.allsailboats.com/m/britanniaboatsltd..html
http://www.britanniacharts.com/contact.htm

and this one looks like a good resource in general:

http://boat-design.net/

[mbd]

From the Boat design page above:

Flapdoodle Folding Dinghy plans (http://flapdoodle.250free.com/)

More links at the bottom of the Flapdoodle page...

[mbd]

Sea Hopper (http://www.shorebase.co.uk/boating/sailing/hoppy/hoppy.asp)

[ebb]

G'morn Mike,
Flapdoodle looks promising. Notice they avoid stating the weight. Price for plans is right! Total weight would be good to know. Including the paint which does add to the weight too.
If it can be assembled onboard (probably ON the cockpit as suggested) it could be launched using the boom. So superlight is not totally necessary. Bet you're looking at 75# at least.

Britannia and Stowaway(Seahopper) have been at war for years. I think one guy left the company and started up his own. Britannia has one boat, Seahopper four or five. My feeling is to go with Seahopper, even tho there is no dealer, last I heard, in the US. They're both English companys - so they are a bit weird. The boats may have some Triumph or Morris Minor qualities. I don't know. Research!!

This little take-apart sailing Optimist will cost you as much as an Ariel! What would one cost delivered to your door? Course, if you're crossing the Atlantic, you can pick one up over there. IF I was going to get one I;d be exactly specific about all the parts I'd expect to be in the pkg(s).

PS...THANKS FOR POSTING THE PICS, NOW WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!:D

[mbd]

It looks like it might be easy enough to add a little sailing rig to the Flapdoodle too. Although I'd imagine it would be quite a tender tender...

Hard to go wrong for the price though!

[ebb]

The Flapdoodle is a knockdown Optimist pram (with appologies to Seahopper) of which there are dozens of different versions. It has for years been considered the optimum pram for teaching kids how to sail. Not too tender, I suppose. The Flapper looks more elegant to me in the photos than the Hopper. Doesn't look like an RV strap-on like the Hopper or the Portopote.

A concern I have is that there are no photos of this pram on the water. And none showing a sailplan tho the pram comes with plans for a dropboard and a kickup rudder. No photos of a human sailing, rowing or STANDING. No doubt a DIY sailplan could be found on the net. But was one developed for the Flapper? That bothers me. Because it's a matter of presentation.

The Optimist has a plumb vertical stern which would increase slightly volume and stability - compared to the Flapper. To increase stability you can flatten the bottom and widen it, you can widen it by making the sides more vertical. Increase capacity with taller sides. I guess that every Optimist version has a tweek one way or another. Probably play with the plans you buy. Original plans used the 4X8 sheet of plywood as a pram's max length. But there is no reason to stay within a 2 sheet minimum when cutting for shape. Except for weight. Weight is a real issue here - especially a pram with hard angles and corners. Recently saw a cutting layout that used plywood more economically when done for two.

The idea of take apart goes dead if there's too much overall weight. imco

I'd want at minimum a 400# capacity, go more in a pram for a cruiser, groceries, water - at least one rower and one overweight passenger. I'd take capacity over sailability. But also take comeliness over plain utility. OK, sombody has to review the Flapperdoodle as a boat befor I'd buy it. But if I bought the plans, I'd first make a 1/12 paper model.

FOLDING means one thing to me. You take out some stiffners, seat and stuff, and it actually folds into stowage shape. TAKEAPART: Pieces come out of channels, pockets, etc - and you really need a bag to keep all the parts to gether.

IMAGINE PUTTING YOUR DINGHY TOGETHER IN THE COCKPIT!!!
Imagine launching and retrieving it, cleaning it, bagging it, all nine square yards.
In anything but a flat calm.

The Flapper photos are real cagey about the 'pvc hinges'. They are the whole thing to me: longevity, replacement, maintenance. Is the fabric off the shelf or something made up in the shop?
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

THERE ARE NO PHOTOS SHOWING THE FLAPPERDOODLE BEING TAKEN APART OR PUT TOGETHER.
THAT IS SUSPICIOUS.
The only visible hinges are on the rudder, they're cool. But looking in the corners of the pram, don't see nuttin. I'm wondering if we're looking at a 'prototype' or an elaborate hoax. Website presentation is a HUGE hole of not enough information. Has anyone been in touch with Duckworth's? Reminds me of unsubstantiated supplement claims for curing some disease! (In banner headlines: 'For only $29 here is a cure for all your dinghy problems... Risk free trial... Non-returnable money back guarantee is absolutely FREE...')

[ebb]

o h h K A Y, just for arguements sake, then maybe I'll shedup.
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Dinks/Schatze.html

Put the tape on the cabintop today: it's about 5' long and 4' wide, surprisingly at the front and at the cockpit. John Atkin (the son) drew some nice little boats that were real departures from his pop's. Schatze is one different little pram and as a nester is in my book a candidate for the cabintop. Not serious, yet, just fartin around. So just to see something I made a couple copies of the art and since it is 7'10" long ticked off the pram in eight equal pieces.

Then drew a line at the "5 foot" marker counting from the stern and cut the bow off. Trimmed it to the lines, turned it around, bow to stern, put it 'in' the back of the boat - and it seems to be a perfect fit. Just to get the brain going. Right?

That means IF you mount the nested pram stern stern forward on the cabin we have the cut pieces over the companionway. I've seen various ways of connecting nesting prams, thru bulkheads, partial blkhds and frames. That is maybe one could design the connecting frames so that they would appear as an arch over the companionway. Course the upside down pram is not going to be happy without some fiddling, both some design innovation and in mounting to the cabin. The bow section will turn out to be too bulky for nesting upsidedown.
Maybe it could be mounted at an up angle to make it easier to git below. The sheet leads from the mast etc will need thinking, no room for the winch? How ugly will this thing look? What about the dodger? Ah h h... Just an evening's provacation.

The Atkin pram as drawn is traditional frame and ply construction. Red meranti is available in 4mm(5/32"). Weighs in at 19# a 4X8 sheet. (6mm(1/4")25# sheet) How about Stitch and Glue with 6oz glass and epoxy overall inside and out, wonder what the finished weight will come out to?:rolleyes:

Never made a stitch-n-glue pram, or a nester. Could be a PITA or a lota fun if it turned out it was a cool thing to do for the Ariel. Hey! Ideas anyone?

[epiphany]

Ebb -

Another idea that has bounced around in my brainpan more than once...

Whaddabout a nesting dinghy shaped to fit upside-down over the cabin trunk, *forward of the mast*.

Go belowdecks some time and look at that nice curved shape up under there, imagine that's the _inside_ of the dinghy hull. It's a little shallow, but there's room under the jibsheets for more depth/freeboard, if needed...

At sea this dink would serve as a cover/protection for the forward hatch, it wouldn't be interfering with a vang or forward visibility, it would allow movement on the side decks, and it wouldn't add much in the way of windage.

I think it could be done, but haven't gone beyond thinking about it yet...

[ebb]

Kurt, Definitely a boat shape there!:D
You'd slip the 'smaller half' over the nose and the larger piece would fit over that. Somebody who has their Ariel together has got to get out there with some cardboard to see if it is feasible.

A pram with bowed sides that have some flare, a 5/8 section cut LOOKS LIKE it will nearly always be able to nest the 3/8 smaller piece inside - in normal designs.

But if you are suggesting we throw some visqueen over the bump and lay-up some mat on it... well, that would be a strange little bugger. We only got a couple feet there befor you hit the mast. BUT MAYBE a pramster could be designed that would fit over the nose and extend forward some. As I see it, we'd try to get at least 7 possibly 8 feet of dinghy. And as a 'general rule' we need to break the little boat 'off center' to get the nesting ability. So if we can live with a three foot, or more, extension onto the foredeck, why not give it a try. The challenge is the connection of the 'halves' which would be open, not bulkheaded.

Now that I "think" about it, it might be possible to nest the tender without trying to stack both pieces on the nose. In other words, somehow we get the longer section out far enough to nest the smaller half on the deck under it. I don't know - maybe not. The smaller half could be bulkheaded making it easier and stronger to attach.

I feel that the observor's critical eye will accept a strange growth on deck if it knows it's a dinghy. So a pram or little skiff overturned on the foredeck propped at an angle on the cabin nose ain't all that bad. Correct? Hey, sez 'cruiser'.
There are fully connected 6' tenders that might work like that on the Ariel. You know: bow up, somewhat hugging the cabin nose with its stern on deck, almost to the pulpit We've seen one here on the Forum, on another dinghy thread.
If we were designing a pram for the foredeck that actually slipped over the nose, maybe some length could be gained by notching (big notch) the stern around the mast. The dinghy would have its bow forward and that would be a good thing, hydrodynamically, AND maybe scrimping a little working room on the foredeck. That would be a one piece pram with a strange bolt-on transom.

If we could get the whole length of the pramster that way then we'd only have to figger out how to bolt on or slip in some sort of transom! Much better I think than trying to bolt bulky halves together, or taking the boat apart to stow. The apparent cabin extension sure would be weird, but the weight and windage would be lower and therefore this idea should be pursued. Definitely!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


{OK, just had a mental snapshot. 'Looks' good - might actually be feasible:
Find or design a skiff (pointy bow dinghy - could still be a pram if the bow came in pretty tight) that when stowed on deck sits stern to the mast on top of the cabin
- that does tilt at an angle because the bow goes down to the foredeck - but it hugs and fits over the cabin in front of the mast, and over the forehatch.
Might still be able to open the hatch for ventilation.
There would be a concave cutout into the transom of the skiff, a lot or a little, ain't no problem.
Designer decides how low he cuts the skiff's transom into the cabin.
It probably wouldn't follow the contour of the cabin - except initially at its stern - there it'd be a good tite stow.
The skiff's pointy bow forward means some room to work Ariel's bow.
Might be better if there was some pram bow flatness to rest on deck, rather than a point.
The skiff's sides would bow out but would generally be hugging the Ariel's cabin
- that means room to get around.
This one should be easy to make a prelim fullsize mockup right in place out of doorskin and/or cardboard to see if it is at all feasible.
Might get a 7 footer, 4' wide! To keep it looking good we'd have to get some bow in the sides so that it is wider in the middle - might be a problem. No bolting though!}

[ well, the idea survived the night:
We really try to keep the weight down. Curved surfaces are stronger than flat panels.
There is the chore of getting it off the deck, turning it over and launching it.
Assuming the tender is ready to launch as is, we'd have built in flotation making it unsinkable. THAT would be good. Comforting thought!

So the rigging experts out there could figure out how to use the whiskerpole mounted on the front of the mast with a halyard to lift and boom the skiff over the side, Right? Lift it so it was on its side coming up or going down? Guess you'd have a bridle to eyes centered on the bow and stern.]


If we were Tritons we wouldn't be thinking about all this pramosuction and prammutation. Sheeesh, It's tuff being small!!!

Anyway, a real simple, SIMPLE, no baloney folding boat would be the coolest.

[ebb]

Chesapeake Light Craft's very pretty multichine stitch and glue Eastport Pram just might be the ideal tender. Apropos the preceding post. It is mo-dern yet has a cute traditional look that may compliment the Ariel, both in the water and overturned on the foredeck. The pram has a lot of rocker and round bottom, so it's not entirely the best in stability and load capacity. (That may be my uninformed predjuice.) But good on the foredeck offshore shedding green water. It's 7'9", 4' wide and
60#!
That is a considerable clincher. You'd be making it from a kit so alterations IF NECESSARY to fit the Ariel deck would be direct and part of the process. It's a sailing pram so there is a rudder and if you have to fool with the transom to make it fit down on the cabin nose, that has to be well planned and thought out. I think it'll be a cinch - it'd be an extra piece with gudgeons attached that would clamp on and extend the transom up to its designed height.

Pictures show the pram finished bright with painted topsides, but a cruiser might make it look more utilitarian so it doesn't become an object of DESIRE.

Can some youngster please bring a photo over here, it's worth a look fer sure. I haven't a clue if it will 'fit' the foredeck.
The chines are lapped, you be glueing them together creating longitudinal ribs. I would make it from 5/32 meranti and glass it inside and out with light cloth, maybe try vacuum bagging. The shape of the boat and the chine ribs with a monoque frp finish should make it very strong indeed.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Thanks for the pics, Mike! (the post below this)

Another comment (of course!) and it is this:
Okoume' is a non-durable mahogany used almost exclusively by kyack makers. That's CLC. It must be the reason the plywood comes in 3, 4, 5, 6, 9mm, etc panels for the skinny plywood trade. If I choose to build an Eastport I'd ask if 4mm red meranti could be substituted in their kit. Red meranti is stronger than okoume', heavier than okoume', more rot resistant ie durable than okoume', and stiffer than okoume'. It costs a lot less than okoume'. Meranti (4mm, 6mm1/4", 9mm) is made from at least 8 species of luan, philippine mahogany, so you have to be sure you are getting a technical grade from the supplier. (My research sez we want Red Shorea negrosensis. The best wood and phenolic glue.) If you glass the shell it'll end up being 1/4", probably a little heavier, but it'll be a hell of lot more durable.:D Just my opinion.

[mbd]

Nice! A friend of mine built one of their kayaks. Excellent website too....

Eastport Pram Gallery (http://www.clcboats.com/boats/eastportpram_photos.php)

A review from Good Old Boat (http://www.clcboats.com/print_reviews.php#FourTenders)

And some photos: sailing, loaded, and a lass...

[ebb]

Mike! Eye candy fer sure!
So for $1500 and two bag lunches (one for the lass) we have a nice 'winter' project.
BS1088 (British Standard) Okoume' is the highest grade of plywood available (the next step up to the top is Lloyds), that's what's in the Eastport Kit. That basicly means the wood is void free - important in skinny plywood. The stuff is not made in this country (not that it would be better here), so you cross your fingers on the subspecies and glue. Okoume' will give you the lightest boat. In Stitch-and-Glue the plywood becomes the 'core' between an inside and outside layer of glass. The wood will be saturated with epoxy. Much of the pram's strength comes from it's shape, but it all depends on the epoxy and glass.

If just plans are available, and you think you might beat the tarrif, I wouldn't consider APA (American Plywood Assoc = NO standard at all) AC 1/4" fir plywood even for a coffin! Douglas Fir would make an excellent skinny plywood, equal to Okoume' and Meranti. Much US fir plywood is not made with fir, especially interior veneers. We lost it. 1/4" Meranti would make a heavier boat than the 60 Eastport #s, don't know, but it would climb up there.* The biggest problem will be holding back adding layers and stuff. I'd probably want to add extra frp to the bottom.
Looking at the Eastport parts spread sheet, we'd have a great feeling of acheivement when it came out of the garage in the spring! Man, I would, it looks like a real challenge! A lot of hours. Good ale.

Don't know anything about anything here. If the parts are 'laser cut' and accurate it should be fun to put together. As a boat tender, among other things, would make a take apart mast, like the oars, to stow inside the pram.

Anyway, will it fit on the boat? I've got some long pieces of corrugated box material that I'll take down to the boat this wkend...
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
* Okoume'
4mm5/32 - 13.2# - $52 ===== Meranti 4mm - 19# - $35
5mm3/16 - 17.8# - $62 ===== ------------------------
6mm1/4 -- 20.0# - $69 ===== --------6mm - 25# - $44
>Thickess - Weight per 4X8 sheet - Cost FOB World Panel Products Inc<

1/4" marine Douglas Fir (3 ply)-----$61. Probably would not have the BS1088 rating. Meaning it could have knots, voids, splits hidden inside - or defects on the 'B' side. Any void in an inside layer of thin plywood will destroy the integrity of the boat. Any cracks in the skin cancels out that layer. Would not trust the damn bathtubs.

1/4" Okoume' is 3ply. 1/4" Meranti is 5ply. The wood is more dense and there's more glue. 5 ply full 1/4" marine-grade Meranti imco is incredible material, probably twice as strong as 1/4" Okoume'. But it may make too heavy an Eastport Pram for the Ariel. Maybe certain planks could be thicker like on the bottom? Be perfect if they made 3/16 Meranti. 1/4" M would probably be too stiff to bend. You'd have to prebend with hotwater. PITA.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
This info is to the best of my ability, I could be wrong, very wrong about something. Everything. As I scour the internet, there are forums out there with a lot of hearsay and wronger info. A lotta people don't know what their talking about. And those that think they know can't think outside the box. If you don't feel like tackling this project, I would first visit a Bolger/Payson boatbuilding site. Buy Payson's 'Build New Instant Boats', for an outofdate but informed beginning. Then checkout www.soar1.com:D :D :eek:
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Forgot both days to take the cardbord to the boat.

>>>>>>>>BUT FOLKS, THAT EASTPORT WON'T FIT - IT'S TOO LONG.<<<<<<<

There is room on the Ariel foredeck AND PROPPED UP ON THE CABIN IN FRONT OF THE MAST for a 6' maybe 6 1/2' pram. ONLY!!! If we need to lower the pram onto the cabin by cutting its transom, the cabin is 4' wide. Not going to happen in a smaller boat if we want to keep some proportions. Smaller boats are narrower OA than wider. It's a design problem. And a problem with the jib. Assuming a DIY approach: One candidate - a place to begin - is 'Tiny Ripple' A 6' Unsinkable Flat-Bottom Pram By William & John Atkin. It's probably still too wide in front (or back - since it is box shaped.)
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Dinks
It could be developed for a modified stitch and glue. with a little more freeboard. There must be something more appropriate with a more skiff-like prow but still a pram, so that it fits in the Ariel bow. If there was room in front to do anchor work, one could step over the tender if it was too wide.
Some designs might fit really well - angled up on the cabin - without cutting. The prolific Atkin's must have designed it.
http://www.dngoodchild.com
HERE IT IS:
#7803 POOTZY by Al Mason - is a 6' 6" - 38" beam - that looks like just the ticket. In fact it could easily be an Atkins but it has a better bow shape for us. [POOTZY is an old couple's term of endearment for each other.:o I've sent away for the single sheet plan: $3.50, S&H $2.50. I think this boat could be 8" to 10" wider (add it right down the middle) and fit real comfy-on the foredeck. Stitch&Glue.]
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Feather+Pram
for a 6'8" clinker style S&G sailer.
Good Luck!
I'm off it for now, feel like I'm peeing in the wind!:o

[commanderpete]

I like the idea of the Porta Bote. It would fit inside one of the cavernous lockers of a Commander. But, its $1150 and the boat's outboard would be too heavy for it.

Here another folding boat

http://www.woodenwidget.com/Origami.html

This one would probably be a pain to assemble

http://www.rvtoyoutlet.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RV&Product_Code=RV0074

A singlehander, doing an occasional cruise, might be able to get by with an inflatable kayak

[ebb]

C'pete, youse good!
That widget: that dink has a few wrinkles alright, has all the substance of a tissue box. And that green rvtoy? A true find! Brought to you by the folks at Coleman, doubles as a shotgun case, comes with a picnic table.:D

Here's a straightforward dink that's purrfect for the Commander...
http://home.clara.net/gmatkin/puss2.jpg

NOW SEE THIS:

www.personal.umich.edu/~janhande/dinghy/fabrication.htm
*
type in >neutrino dinghy< (Small, light sailboat dinghy (salboat tender) of carbon fibre...) Hit all the pages! You computer nutz will be impressed, I think.

Jan Andersen's (an industrial design professor at UM) 6'2" Neutrino is a breakthru invention and a very pleasing little tender to look at. Made from carbonfiber and kevlar, has 150 lbs added foam flotation, a couple skegs with handholes on the bottom, a builtin wheel in the stern, 4' beam,
WEIGHS 35 LBS,
has a 500 lb load capacity. That may be to the gunwale. It'll take two friendlies (man & dog) and groceries!
Originally found it as a Soundings, Aug2005 reprint of a short article with photos. Since this is not a product there is no hype, so take a look. If these were for sale, and came with a rag, it would be worth more than what Eastport gets as a kit. Because IT IS A BOAT. It's also a sculpture! I'm not sure, maybe the Professor has plans available.

The problem is the expensive materials, but the Neutrino is a tiny package. It would FIT PERFECT on the foredeck of an Ariel!:cool:


A wet, heavy, frightened and freezing old man: should be able to haul himself onto a boat's tender from the water without sinking it. Ideally it should float filled with water and its human, but that may be asking too much. We should be able to climb aboard, displace the water and bail. On a small cruiser the tender's primary function is dual: transportation to groceries and life saving at sea. There is a hollow 'unsinkable' ABS rotomold dinghy that is too heavy and long for us: Portland (something): but the idea is abroad. The subject is important.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
*sorry, web address had dash(-) after www. Did not go blue.
Retyped a period(.) after www. Now goes blue but it's in error.:mad:
Type in the google, it's worth the visit.

[mbd]

Cool beans! :cool:

Ebb's Link above (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~janhande/dinghy/fabrication.htm)

Here's another "function over form" dinghy: PDRacer (http://www.pdracer.com/)

[mbd]

Not sure how you'd fit anything more than one person though!

[ebb]

Mike,
If it began as a dinner table challenge or a vision in the shower, the Professor's challenge was well met. It definitely (as far as we can tell on the moniter) is the smallest real dinghy possible with the mostest going for it that I've seen. It could be a little longer - 4 inches? Make a sailer out of it? Did you notice on the critique page the cad drawing showed how deepening the forefoot changes the chine lines - for the better, I think? It would indeed improve the Neutrino. imho

[Why did the Norwidgeon professor give his pram an Italian name?]

The Ariel pramster challenge for me at the moment is to custom a tender so as whose transom can sit lower over the cabin. The Neutrino has a thoughtful padded concavity to its stern, but I would like to have the Ariel's boat sit lower, right?, missing the forehatch entirely, of course, so it would be right up close to the mast, and at less of an angle riding down over the deck. Couldn't have a built in stern seat now could it? (How about an inflatable bladder like airboats have??) And you'd keep the pram from going down too far so there'd be some room to raise the hatch underneath for air. Have to insist on that. Good protected ventilation!

Kurt's challenge, in my interption, was to checkout a two-part nester that slipped over the nose - interesting - and more snug to the deck - but since I'm doing most of the bs here, I think a ready-to-launch like the Nuetrino is what we all would really want. Man, no folding around. Who could seriously see pumping up an airboat ever again, if the idea pans out.

Don't believe that the resulting custom dink for the Ariel would be as cute as the Professor's. A 4' + wide transom in six and a half foot length would net a wider rider, a more buttly and heavier boat. TYhat could make it less tippy and able to carry more. I like Mason's proportions as a starting place BUT we'd have to add 8" down the middle plus a 'V' to the bottom of the pram that gets wider at the stern. Like someone who's put on a lot of weight and has to expand their jeans. The Ariel pram that housed over the cabin would have a definite triangular propensity that would be hard to make look good. Mason notwithstanding.

Neutrino's friendly vacuum bagged curves are a big part of the success of the design - but I think a traditional pram is a way to go for the Ariel prototype. Unless somebody has a contribution heah. A working model from doorskin and 1/4" ply would be easier for me to put together. Anybody else??
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
Besides a snappy sheer, a pram needs rocker (fore and aft curve in the bottom) for nimble sailing. (Ariel pram HAS to sail, right?) And ideal deadrise gets the weather bilge out of the water when sailing. (Ariel pram HAS to have deadrise..) The 6' pram problem is THE ultimate compromise, isn't it?
Too much deadrise makes the boat tippy - too much rocker makes the boat hard to row, but if flattened at the stern you could put a tiny OB on it. Curves means thinner material can be used in construction.
Here's a 30 pounder!!!
>google< Good work, Chuck
www.chebacco.com/articles/019/06/article.htm
Here's a one-sheeter in a homey setting, not to be missed! Just to remind you you can do it too.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cutterj/boat1/boat1.htm

[ebb]

Kurt, take note:
Made a pattern of the exterior shape of the Ariel cabin in the space between the hatch and the maststep. And drew it out full size on paper in the garage. 338 has a larger hatch base so the rather arbitrary space is smaller, probably closer to the maststep.

49" - Width of cabin just forward of mast and just above the deck/cabin curved 'fillet.' It's a level line thru the cabin, if you will.
The next three are the 'interesting' ones.

83/84 degrees - Angle of sides off the horizontal 'level' base line established above. Slope of cabin sides. Not off deck.

106 degrees - Estimated angle of cabin side to a half chord from the centerline of the cabin arc. IE making a straight line to the middle of the cabin crown from the top of the cabin's rounded corner.

13" - Estimated height of cabin off the arbitrary horizontal, be more if deck and cabin met sharp.


Al Mason's Pootsy, measured off a single sheet drawing got thru dngoodchild that was reduced to 1/12. IE to a 6 1/2" drawing representing a full size 6 1/2' pram. You need a downloadable 1" (12) = 1' scale rule.

37" - Width of transom.

83/84 degrees - angle of sides to waterline at the transom. The angle changes at the other stations, which is expected.

106+ degrees - angle of sides to bottom at transom.

14" - height of transom in the center.

This curious coincidence is pretty amazing to me. Certain shapes and proportions must please the inner eye.
Kurt, you got a good eye!:D
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Made some scale drawings. It IS possible to imagine an extremely wide pram. I can - I'm large and fairly heavy. Be actually easier for me to row it. However, realistically, we're shouldn't expect to have a pram that is 50+" wide to lower over the cabin. The reason is we have the structure of the pram transom to consider, the transom won't be there when the pram is lifted. Have to find and fit the transom and fiddle with fastenings! What narrow framing would be strong and stiff that the removable transom is attached to? It's the integrity of the pram at the transom that bothers me if we really want to french the pram to the cabin.

There is the traditional rear seat of a pram to think about and the raising of the hatch for venting when it's upside down on the boat. The seat is important for structure and can be made hollow for flotation. So if anyone else is visualizing this conundrum, to me it's obvious that the pram has to ride higher. Therefor it need not be as wide. The arc of the cabin is 2" - not radical. It's not a bad concave shape for a padded transom. The narrower the transom the higher it sits. The forehatch has to be operable and the little side ports would be usable. The transom would not need to be so compromised, making the pram stronger. Just exactly what, we'll find out with a scale model if I ever get around to it. NOW, whether the pram transom would actually fit the prescribed space between mast and hatch has to be determined - probably on the boat. Niche fitting often does not work out. Any thoughts, even negative, would be really appreciated.

For me, Pootsy could be made wider and a little deeper by adding a piece down the middle. I would attempt it in a stitch and glue adaption. A wider pram would fit pretty well on the foredeck. If it did work out Pootsy would obviously become Puttsy. (Oopsy and Poopsy also come to mind.) Don't know that Al would approve!? Don't know what the width limit is yet. Or even the exact length.;)

[mbd]

I dunno. I'm still liking the folding dinghy idea.

Ease of deployment is nice, but to me, the fore deck hatch is just too valuable for light and ventilation, and for stuffing head sails. And an uncluttered foredeck is a must, I would think, for cruising. I'll be sticking to the coast for my foreseeable future, so towing is my most likely option.

Perhaps you could rig up storage under the cockpit - so you could go bigger and less efficient as far as stowing the pieces. With a proper sized cockpit hatch, maybe you could even stow a nester under there? Or, maybe Ebb could look at designing a nester for his rear engine compartment??

How about one of those plastic kayaks like James Baldwin of Atom? Stored along a side deck, but readily available and easily rowed...

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
OK. So I reread the beginning of the thread and realized I've come full circle and am just rehashing already posted comments. Sorry.

[frank durant]

Ebb....FWIW...Doug,Rick,Abbey and I all bought those 'on sale- worst marine' inflatable kayaks for $149 for the MA cruise....they paddle WAY better than expected...store really small and blow up easily. A $16 battery pump @ wally world sure helps inflate. Not very good for moving supply's , but VERY good for transporting yourself,exploring and excersize. We were all happy.

[ebb]

Frank, I'll wait for a YouTube video showing you guys getting in and out of your kyacks from the boat. Like the idea and the price. And if I could get into one, I'd think seriously about having one aboard - for excursions, and exercise - in addition to a righteous dinghy.

A small cruiser will not be carrying a liferaft. A 'self-rescue' pram imco is something to aim for. So I'd go for one that was essentially unsinkable, one you could climb out of the water into, one that could be sailed - however crudely, and light enough to be deployed and retrieved with ease. If it doesn't exist then we have to at least find out WHY.

SO, a sixfoot pram that'll hold two with the pram's gear, abandon-ship gear, and groceries!!!
An airboat may be the only answer for a small cruiser like the Ariel.
But it is a 'giveup' compromise to me.

Mike, 338 has to have its batteries somewhere in the space under the cockpit. I got a hatch for the cockpit deck. But the idea of a hole there is bothering me. The owner of the outfit I bought it from said, when I asked how waterproof it was, that all boats were designed with bilges to be pumped out!:D

[frank durant]

Ebb...I'm trying to 'shrink' a pic here so it will fit. Different computer than home so getting frustrated. ..the kayak..In/out is better than expected...but not graceful. Funny how when you go to get in/out...ALL eyes are watching. Good entertainment at the anchorage.'edit'..@home now...here's the pic. They should call us '4 ole guys in kayaks'....there isn't 50 dark hairs among us...this is Rick...cool shades eh !! PS..pic is in Cuttyhunk Harbour,off Buzzards Bay MA. PSS..don't try this at home folks..we're trained professionals.

[frank durant]

Ebb...just a note...niether the paddle nor wine glass or cool shades are included in that price.:D

[ebb]

Criminee Frank, if you hadn't warned us, I could have swore it was a whitetop wine fly emerging from its coccoon.

[ebb]

you began this thread.
Foredeck pram? Got something yet?

[Bill]

Geoff has a tender . . .

[Bill]

Another view . . . [yes, UHURU is back in the water. Film at 6:00 . . . when I get through editing.]

[Tony G]

'Stumbled upon this one ealier tonight and thought of this thread immediately. Now let's see if I can make this thing work...

http://www.yachtvalhalla.net/gecko/gecko.html

Belizean One Barrel. It makes somethings so easy and other things so hard:D

[epiphany]

Here's a great page that fully documents the build and launch of a 6.5' LOA B&B Yacht Designs "Minipaw" dinghy. This one was 3 years in the building, but the result looks great. :) (3 years is not needed to build one, however... ;) )

The builder (pictured) is Michel Goudeseune.

http://zx81.isl.uiuc.edu/tanzer22/dinghy/image/060916.24.overhead_view_at_shore.jpg

[ebb]

Looks like Michel is trying out oarlock positions. He'll be putting a second set further forward so he can row with a passenger or an anchor or five jerry cans.
I like the style seat. A boat this size would be hard to sail wouldn't it? Probably have to do away with the seat (make it removable) so that you could sit on the bottom and use a tiller and tend sheets...?

Wonder what she weighs?
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later addition:
www.dinghyco.com
6 1/2' pointy dinghy. Looks like almost 40" wide!
Earl specializes in fiberglass versions of 'FOUND' boats.
There aren't too many configurations one can have in a '6half' dinghy. This little CAMDEN looks like it should be light weight, looks unsinkable, and has an adjustable/removable seat. Looks like the boat could be sailed with additions.
There are thousands of tenders out there - just peeking, what do you think?
Looks like like you could get into the boat FROM THE WATER over the rear and bail it after. Any dinghy for an A/C should have this attribute imco.
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Tony: Who could not like the nesting Danny Greene 'Gecko'? Nested the boat is 5'4" long and who knows how tall, altho they do fit very nicely together. And the craftsmanship looks first class.

There was a hilarious YouTube video once that showed an old guy putting the center thwart into a Portabote - when suddenly the seat slips and the thing closes sucking in the poor guy like a Grouper! This nester I don't think could be assembled on the deck of an Ariel. So in the water both halves would have to float - and assembly would literally have to be a breeze. I don't see this process on the site.
This version of the Chameleon looks pretty heavy!
I think I've run across a shorter version of a pram like this where the center seat is used to make the connection of the two halves. Good idea. Not as pretty as that center sweep of the Gecko's. Where to put the package on the Ariel is a problem: under the boom, on the foredeck, aft deck?:confused:
If there was enough width to a dinghy the center seat/thwart could, not only act as bouyancy, but might also serve to lock up the 2.5hp OB, if so designed. imco

[Rico]

For some good picts see the original link:- Posting the pictures did not work for me...

http://www.fattyknees.com/fatty_knees_goodoldboat.html



Four tenders for sail
Searching for the ideal sailing tender, we test four of the best.
by Scott and Barbara Thurston.

[ebb]

Barbara and Scott's presentation of the four dinghys Rico has posted here is an unbelievable relief to me. It is amazing how difficult it is to find credible and useful information on the internet. The writing is superb and informative and thoughtful - and obviously packed with actual experiences - who could not listen to what this cruising couple has to say. I'd like to know how it came about that they had four expensive dinghys to compare so conveniently!

From this article a list could be compiled of just what an ideal tender's attributes should be.

Aside from the sticker price:
One thing important to us is the weight of the tenders, how cumbersome they are to get on deck, and how and WHERE they are stowed to go. Of course that depends on the mother ship.

An 8' dinghy has no place to stow ON an Ariel:
Ariel is a particularly small ship, a real challenge that requires a particularly small and LIGHT WEIGHT package in a dinghy. Coastal cruisers could easily get away with an airboat imho such as the Tinker (or its smaller brother that I haven't seen). For voyaging, yea for dependability, a hard dingy-pram is the only choice. I believe, as the opening parragraph in the test report suggests that the dinghy takes a beating and often won't get the care it deserves - like a little burro or burrito.

Can't see an inflatable taking what a hardass one has to! Hard prams can be dragged on rocks and concrete and shells, don't fry in the sun, can carry sharp objects, chain and anchors, can be neglected and fixed easy, can be towed, rowed, sculled, sailed and use a smaller and cheaper motor, aren't a prime target for stealing, are cheaper than the blimps, are puncture proof, can be customed - AND have a whole lot more PERSONALITY.:cool:
Compare that to being a roll-up and going fast.

The Thurston's article might emphasize an important feature every burrito has to have:
It must be able to be bailed out with an adult human aboard. I don't think this can be compromised. It won't matter how cute... or how well a dinghy tracks... if it's full of water up to its sheer. The older you get, or if you have kids, the SELF RESCUE aspect of a yacht's tender is absolutely important.
(Recently noticed 'self rescue' used to describe a dinghy's ability to stay afloat after a knockdown, be righted, and used from the water again. Not necessarily its secondary or possible use as a life rescue device, that a cruiser might hope it to be.)

[ebb]

www.niccollslite.net
This nester reminds me of the Cameleon/Gecko ply dinghy.
[I'm sorry if this is a repeat - I'm on the run.]

It's really (so far as we can tell) a well thought out row-motor-sail boat. I think it is too big, too much of a box when nested for the Ariel. But what's the harm in peeking? Lots of good ideas and imho $4000 sailaway is a very decent price!

Can it be put together in the water? Whats the materials and workmanship like?
This 10 footer is 5'6" X 53" nested - unknown height. 58# aft section, 37# fore section. Not bad at all!

Where would you put the nester on the Ariel? Seriously?

We're waiting for an 8 foot nester. Where would you put those two?
Seriously?

[Bill]

Here is a site with another tender design:

http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/HandyAndy.

[ebb]

That says it. There are a couple posts by "long term" users of the folding plastic boat.
One from the Cruising Boat Forum by Dan Best 2/09/05. About a 12 page thread.
Another from newsgroups.derkeiler.com Archive. from TriciaJean 192 1/12/06
Re: dingy question - another Porta-Bote fan (in depth review)...
Hope you can access them both.

Here are their pros and cons in summery.

In the Sea of Cortez and beyond for about 3 years.
Pros
The Porta-Bote was rugged on barnacled rocks. Rows easy compared to an airboat, and faster with a same sized motor. More room than an airboat and no worries beaching.
Set up time is faster than putting a woodfloor in the airboat with 2 people. But longer to set up singlehanded.
No leaks like air. Stores easy. Lies flat, you can walk on it, tows well. Stable when stepping down into it, don't have to step over a wide tube.
Cons
Plastic seats and transom not UV resistant. [While there is a 10 yeat limited warranty on the hull, there is only 1 year on the seats and transom.]
Some fastenings are not s.s. (2005)
DIFFICULT TO GET INTO FROM THE WATER.
Airboat very easy. But depending on situation you can just run the Bote on shore and get in there.
[Wonder if a simple rope ladder off the transom would help in getting a leg up?]

There is a weight issue: While the hull alone may weigh in at approx 50#, the seats, transom and dunnage adds weight to the assembled bote
Another complaint is that the Botes are chick magnets and you have to give strangers "5 or 10 minutes answering their questions."
A drier tender than the inflatable and easier to keep growths off.

Dan is pleased with it.
There is no sail rig for the 8'5. The sail rig for the longer botes looks complicated and expensive. There originally was a lateen rig available for the smallest one.

OPENING THE PORTA-BOTE
There is an issue of getting that bote open on an Ariel/Commander. Probably easier in the C.
A cruising Ariel even in the cockpit will have limited space. People have tried assembling it athwart the coamings and launching over the side. [and bringing it back on board using a 3-point bridle with the boom]
The usual approach is to step on a side after opening it, then reach over and pull the other side up.
Then you use the supplied SPREADER BAR to prop the sides wide enough to begin fitting and bolting in the plastic seats There is the business of screwing fasteners and nut thingies. Small stuff that I would lose track of. Visualizes as most possible, assembling over the cockpit. Could open the 8 footer on an Ariel foredeck - wouldn't bet on it!
And while the Porta-Bote will ride along the cabinside or along the stanchion rail, there is all the other stuff you need to make it a tender besides the seats and transom and spreader bar: oars and locks, motor and gascan - plus dunnage. And the bimini of course.

The other poster also has some problems with the Porta-Bote.
The same story with the seats and transom. [But it is now 5 years later in Mountain View CA - one would suppose this important plastic has had some UV protection added. ?]
The KEEL protective liner has pulled away on this guys tender.
The factory supplied oars get UVed in no time.
Also the safety foam along the insides also " REACTS TO UV AND SHEDS." [This is imco a serious problem. The Porta-Bote HAS TO HAVE RESERVE BOUYANCY AND FLOAT WHILE SWAMPED!!!]
"For what it's worth, we've run into several people using Porta-Botes as dinghies and none are contemplating going back to an inflatable. On the other hand, there are few inflatable owners that are considering switching to Portas when they get back to the States."

Some posters can't stand the fact that the Porta-Bote people don't state prices - not even list prices. One guy was so pissed he almost sounded like me!
You have to call the factory in Mountain View, CA (1-800-227-8882) and deal with a salesman.
Ask about the 'show price' and any other deals. ASK ABOUT THE UV ISSUES mentioned here. I haven't called recently, But we can expect to pay about 1/2 of a comparable top-of-the-line inflatable price for it. I'd go for the 8'5.... Guessing: $1500-$2000. The handsome - but unfoldable - Walker Bay dinghy is maybe half that price.

Portas are not going to be stand-ins for an emergency life saving device. Strictly a coastal cruising/exploring tender. But relatively easy to take long distances.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
SOAR INFLATABLE:
As a back-up - an inflatable kayak seems like a good idea. There are hundreds of choices and research is a good idea.
There is an outfit in Healdsburg CA, SOAR Inflatables that makes a 12' tandem, white water Alaska expedition, type yacht tender that I've had my eye on for years. It's a flat bottom kayak with huge load capacity.
Offsite reviews suggest a 12' Soar would be a bit much to control singlehanded in all waters It is heavy, comparable to the assembled PB. Difficult to get back in it's bag (15"X10"X40") $1600, Expensive. Many optional accessories, including an OB rig. I've been waiting for a shortie version - won't happen - but this may be a good place to start search and research!:cool:
I have emailed the company suggesting they are missing a good market for a 10' version.*
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If one of the Porta-Bote pro's is that they are impervious to 'barnacled rocks', then the natural process is to find out how fastwater river inflatables deal with sharp projections. Soar has the rep for its canoes/rafts/kayaks as the toughest inflatable. Here is a very favorable review and a good look at the craft:
google> Boat Reviews - SOAR inflatable canoe S14 fishig boat reviews
www.tackletour.com/reviewsoar14.shtm
S14 refers to length. In an email Soar's owner Larry wrote back to me (because I wondered if there was a shorter version of their S12 specifically designed as a yacht tender) saying that their 10' model was not a good tracker for paddling. It is also not offered for sale. He says, "There's a lot of happy S12 yacht tender owners."
Well, I can't tell a successful business owner what to do obviously. But I imagine a 10' (or 11') verision could be easily inflated and set up cross cockpit in an Ariel. (The S12 is too long and cumbersome imco.) It would be white or silver on top and be designed as a yacht tender. All Soars are DARK BLUE. HOT in the tropics. As for tracking, the center one of the inflated tubes along the bottom might be emphasized into a sort of keel. The tender would still have the extra bullet-proof fabric covering the bottom. Could still be capable of hauling 600/700 pounds and weigh in under 50#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dream on McDuff!
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Way later edit. (8/30/11) Litlgull just got a red 10' Soar Inflatable. They listened! Yet to be tested in water. Did get into it at the shop in Healdsberg. Bloody small amount of space inside.....keep tuned into the ebbgallery for a photo or two.