Wiring Question

[Robert Lemasters]

I hope to have some sailing photos to post this September of my Commander #105, Njord. It's been much too hot and humid here in Portsmouth Virginia to work or sail, with very little or no wind, like boot camp in the summer where the only breeze you got was when another company marched by you. However, I was able to start replacing the electrical panel, wiring and the navigation lights, Perko sent me the port and starboard LED light relacements. I will be adding a battery selector switch and a solar charger, what I need is some advice on wiring this all altogether, I have thought about a simple two wire system with switches, inline fuses for each individual DC electrical demand and no panel at all that would also include an converter (also inverter) for dockside AC to DC, anyone with ideas? :confused:

[CapnK]

Hi Robert -

I have this book and love it - it makes electricamikal things simple for those of us who don't have a clue. I think you'll find it a good resource. Written by the same fellow who wrote "This Old Boat".

Sailboat Electrics Simplified by Don Casey (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/59620/10001/12510/11002/16)

http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/27323s_f.jpg

[Robert Lemasters]

Thanks very much for the passdown, I will get the book. I would rather go with the true and tried then my own inventions most of the time. When I have time to work on the boat its better to be prepared and have a plan. Yesterday I had some time but the heat index here was 117 F and it was real uncomfortable tracing some wires below I can tell you. Where I dock my boat the dockside electrical is being replaced and we don't have electrical power or water. I am looking at small electrical generators as I write this. Thanks :D

[CapnK]

Re: small generators -

Both Honda and Yamaha make some really neat little four-stroke (no mixing!) 1K gensets. They are super quiet (<60 dB at 10" away), efficient (.6/gal tank w/3.8hrs runtime at full throttle, 8 hrs @ a reduced load - and a load-sensing throttle that automatically adjusts), not too expensive ( I've seen prices from $550 - 700US on the 'net), small, and they use an inverter so that the AC electricity which they output is supposed to be a real smooth sine wave (good for 'lectronics). Both of the models have "1000" in the name, though I don't recall the exact model names, you should be able to find them via a Google search. I think they sound like just about the ultimate if you want a small genset on a small boat. :) You can also rig them in series, if you have more than 1, in order to increase the output - rig 5 of them for a 5KW generator, for example.

I know what you mean about working below in those kinds of temps - Sweat City! :D

[Sprite]

There is another book by Nigel Calder but it costs something
like $49.00. I am in the process of rewiring a hornet's nest
to clean it up.


John

[Robert Lemasters]

Thanks guys, I just finished replacing the electrical panel, some wiring (found the missing green ground wire), running lights and interior lights without a book. I ordered Sailboat Electrics Simplified, it just came in, a little too late but will come in handy I am sure. I have Perko LED running lights and they are real good though Perko had to replace the originals because of a water and chrome problem. The LED interior lights I bought at an auto parts store they were very inexpensive compared to the ones sold as marine and just as good and so many differant kinds. I may even put in an amber LED or two in the cockpit for night light, they are very cheap, use very little power and some are even weather proof and corrosion proof.

[commanderpete]

What kind of panel did you get? I bought this one

http://www.paneltronics.com/paneldet.asp?PID=9960002B&PT=4

A bit expensive, but its supposedly waterproof. Has 6 switches instead of 5. Mostly I bought it because it was about the same size as the old panel, leaving room for a DC meter in the box.

Still doing electrical work, wires hanging all over the place

[Bill]

August 15, 2005 edition of Practical Sailor has a lead article on distribution panels. They cover BEP, Blue Sea, Newmar and West Marine. No Panel Tronics models, however. :confused:

PS liked the Blue Sea panels.

You can read the mag at most West Marine stores.

[commanderpete]

Blue Sea is the industry standard I think. They've got a new line of panels

http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=53482&d_Id=7997&l1=7460&l2=7997

I bought my panel 2 years ago. Just about ready for installation, along with the new cabin lights I bought 3 years ago.

Can't rush these things

[Robert Lemasters]

Commanderpete here is a photo of the new panel, I used a piece of epay wood I had laying around for the box. Good ol' West Marine.

[Bill]

Can't rush these things

Perfectly understandable. I have a duplicate of the Pearson original panel to install -- it's only been about eight years . . . :o

[Sprite]

I have my original panel it's in good shape but the wires are
nuts. I like the panel above nice job!!! Especially with the
plastic casing around the wires. Here's a question where is
the ground supposed to be mine I think the previous owner
did it to a bronze rudder. I was wondering what the original
was.

John

[commanderpete]

There were originally three wires running from the negative buss. Two went to the middle chainplates on each side. The third went to the starboard thru-hull.

I'm not sure you need them on an outboard model. I ripped them out, afraid that stray voltage might corrode those important pieces of bronze.

I wonder what those electrical books say?

[Jeff]

Not a reply about the electrical panels but nothing quite like sitting in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay in the middle of August. Grew up sailing in the Yorktown/Hampton area. Also just finished 12 years in the Army - good analogy.

[Sprite]

mine go out on the negative bus but I think to the rudder it is bronze.
The other through hulls were taken off except one which was for the
sink and I am replacing it with a forspar one out of marelon which I have
already bought.

John

[commanderpete]

Help me out here. I'm installing a new electrical panel.

Take a look at how this Blue Sea panel is wired. There's a diagram on the second page of this PDF

Note how the positive wire for each device (light or accessory) runs from the panel directly to the device.

http://resources.myeporia.com/company_57/9113.pdf

Thats not how the original panel on the boat is wired.

Instead, the positive wire from each device runs to a terminal strip. Wires then run from the terminal strip to the panel.

(There's a diagram on pg. 176 of the Manual)

Any reason I can't set it up the same way?

Otherwise, how would you attach 3 wires (like the running lights) to one switch in the panel?

The panel I have is powered by two 10 AWG wires. I would run those wires to one screw on the terminal strip. The positive feed from the battery would run to the corresponding screw on the terminal strip.

I'm thinking of getting a terminal strip like this

http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=30185&d_Id=7465&l1=7465&l2=

And a negative bus like this

http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=29975&d_Id=7465&l1=7465&l2=

[commanderpete]

Check out this photo of mrgnstrn's Ariel #3

Nice

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2657

I think he's got more going on than I do

I'm really only going to have

cabin lights
running lights
steaming light
VHF
depthsounder

also wired to battery:
bilge pump
small solar charger
DC meter

Might also add a 12V cigarette lighter type receptacle

[Tony G]

I don't know what you need help with. It appears as though you have the situation well at hand. You could surely use jumper wires on a terminal strip to 'gang' circuits together with the one caveat just label everything. ABYC approved? Beats me!

Light 'er up dude!

[mrgnstrn]

I'm really only going to have

cabin lights
running lights
steaming light
VHF
depthsounder

also wired to battery:
bilge pump
small solar charger
DC meter

Might also add a 12V cigarette lighter type receptacle


C-pete, your list is pretty much my same stuff. Remember that you will likely have two sets of cabin lights (port/stbd), same with running lights.
You haven't listed it here, but you might also have a masthead light of some sort. And I dont have a solar charger.

At some point I will post a labeled picture describing what each of the components are.

[commanderpete]

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I'm curious about your small panel on the upper left.

Should the boat have a fuse on the positive feed from the battery? If so, what size?

Also, my battery terminals are getting a bit crowded. Maybe I can run the bilge pump and DC meter to the terminal strip instead.


Anthony posted a picture of the tidy arrangement on his Commander

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3031&stc=1

[mrgnstrn]

OK, the following is to the best of my recollection:

I didn't install a fuse for the system as a whole. That kind of fuse would have to be like 200+ amps to take starting/cranking current (depending on how cranky my outboard was acting).

Part A is a small terminal strip with fuses for the really vital equipment like Depthsounder and VHF. That circuit is switched, and instead of having a fuse for the whole load, I chose to do it individually. That way if the VHF goes nuts, I don't lose Depth as well (which would happen if they were all on the same fuse.)

Part B is a Blue-Seas terminal strip that takes each positive lead from the main fuse panel (six switches and fuses) and distributes it to the loads. For example, the blue wire near the top carries the load for all cabin lights from a single switch/fuse in the fuse box (mounted on the aft cabin bulkhead like usual) to the distribution buss. I split it into two (one each for port and stbd) at the terminal strip. Blue seas sells these cute little jumpers to connect adjacent leads. Websites:
http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=30179&d_Id=7465&l1=7465&l2=

Part C is the negative terminal strip for all things 12VDC. Note the big-honkin' black battery cable on the right side of it...it goes to the negative of the battery. It is like the following: http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=30009&d_Id=7465&l1=7465&l2=

Part D is my way of getting around having 40million things attached directly to the battery lead. The big red wire coming from the bottom left is coming from the main battery disconnect switch, barely visable in the picture in the bottom-left. That switch is left ON all the time, but if sh:t starts hittin the fan, it kills all power to everything (really, everything). The part marked "D" is a called a "PowerPost". Big bolt for the big power cables (main power, outboard starting, main distribution box) and smaller screws surrounding for the smaller loads, like bilge pump, etc. You can't see it in this picture, but trust me, the bilge pump connects there.
Obligatory link: http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=30137&d_Id=7465&l1=7465&l2=


Can you tell that I dig Blue-Seas stuff?

I am really starting to eye the following:
http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=174086&d_Id=7458&l1=7458&l2=

cheers,

[commanderpete]

Excellent. Its all becoming clearer now.

Happily, these parts are cheap -- about $10-15

[mbd]

There's a recent thread on the Classic Plastics forum (How to replace electrical wires in boat... (http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1492)) with some nice pics and tips too...

[mbd]

...don't forget Tim's extremely helpful sites:

Triton Daysailor: Electrical System (http://www.thedaysailor.com/rebuilding/systems/electrical1.htm)

Glissando: Electrical System (http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/electricalsystem.htm)

[commanderpete]

I ripped out all the old electrical.

Everything had been mounted on that 8" pad

[commanderpete]

I casually glassed in another pad next to it and added the hardware.

Upper left is a Blue Sea Power Post # 2102

Below that is a Cole Hersee fuse block

Top right is a terminal strip (# 2512)

Bottom right is the busbar (Maxibus # 2105)

Cover is # 2711

[commanderpete]

Basically, power comes from the battery to the power post. Two wires that supply the switch panel come down from the power post to the fuse block.

They run from the fuse block to the bottom of the terminal strip. Then from the top of the terminal strip to the switch panel.

Six white wires come down from the switch panel to the terminal strip. On the other side of the terminal strip are all the positive wires for the various lights, etc.. Some of the cicuits are connected by jumpers.

All the black negative wires come back to the busbar and then to the battery.

[commanderpete]

I really didn't see the value in using color coded wire. It would have been difficult to figure out how much of each color was nedded. I would have ended up with too much or too little.

Instead, I wired the whole boat with duplex boat cable. I figured the plastic jacket would better protect the wires against chafe and abuse.

Around the corner is the switch panel, DC meter and DC adapter

[commanderpete]

The new radio is mounted on a piece of starboard and hung off a screw so it swivels.

This way I'm hoping it won't get broken if somebody bashes it.

I also want to be able to hear it from the cockpit.

My favorite brand of radio --70% off

[commanderpete]

You'll notice the back of a compass there. I was never happy that the compass was right next to the electrical panel. So, I decided to install another compass on the other side of the boat.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have put the radio there.

This job turned out to be time-consuming. But, I got tired of fixing things piecemeal.

The electrical books don't really explain how to do all of this. Let me know if anything looks questionable.

I have a solar panel that used to be connected to the battery. Now I attached the positive to the power post and the negative to the busbar. I'm assuming it will charge the battery this way unless somebody tells me different.

[mbd]

And here you've been making us all think you've been slacking off on the maintenance and sailing all the time!

Top notch C'Pete - Grace is looking fantanstic! Here's hoping that you'll treat us to a nice glamor shot photo shoot soon - just your boat please. :D I hate having to hunt through all the different posts to find pics...

[commanderpete]

I think I need to add a second battery and battery switch. Trying to figure out how to wire it.

The outboard engine has an electric start/regulator, but I mostly pull-start the engine.

Don't really need a "house" battery and "starting" battery. Just want to be able to switch to the other battery if one runs low.

I think the picture below shows how to run the positive cables.

How about the negative cables?

Battery #1 Neg post to Battery #2 Neg post to ???? (Negative Bus???)

Engine Neg cable to Negative Bus?

Trickle charge solar panel wired the same as the engine?

How would you charge both batteries with one solar panel (don't want to combine different vintage batteries)

Not sure if I want to permanently mount a large solar panel and get a charge controller. Do I have a choice? Maybe 2 small panels?.

Would I have to reconfigure everything if I added a charge controller later?

This is the battery I bought 2 years ago. I've treated it well, but it just doesn't have enough capacity.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02827582000P?vName=Automotive&cName=Batteries+%26+Chargers&sName=Marine+Batteries


http://bluesea.com/viewresource/70

[bill@ariel231]

Pete

I'm running a house and start battery with a switch like you have shown. my battery grounds all tie back directly to the negative bus bar.

the only down side of running the negative leads in series from battery 2 to battery 1 and then to the panel is that a loose connection where all the leads collect on battery 1 can shake loose. One boat i race with did that... until we rewired the battery system (two house batteries and one start), the battery terminal being used to gang the negative leads together tended to get very hot on engine start (not good).

cheers,
Bill:)

[Tim D.]

Pete,
I'm just finishing up rewiring "Che" and I too would have liked the option of using my battery switch to "save" a battery, but with only one solar charger it won't work. Whether it's the engine charger or solar, controller or not, as soon as you tie the batteries together with a lead you will be having them run parallel. Now if you were to hook the engine to one and the solar to the other it would work, but it might be tough on your system. No matter what you do, you will be much better off if you have matching batteries.

Tim

[commanderpete]

I wonder if installing an "ACR" would work, but with a regular battery switch.

http://www.askjackrabbit.com/2008/03/adding-a-batter.html

http://bluesea.com/viewresource/69

[bill@ariel231]

this whole thread gets to arguments over belief systems pretty quickly.

These isolation systems can take the headache out of worrying if one or both systems is charging (both are connected to the alternator at all times).

the boat i race with uses an older battery isolation system (with a 0.7 volt drop across the isolator). That system works although the batteries never see a full 13.5V charge off of the alternator. Yes, we could run the regulator a little hotter but it hasn't been an issue.

On my boat i avoided this complication by using a pair of identical group 24 batteries. since they charge at the same rate, i avoided the need for an isolator or combiner. As a rule both batteries are full up and charged on the "both" position. On the few occasions when one is drained and needs a charge, i start the good battery and switch over to the other for a full charge. The downside of this arraingement is that both batteries are of the same capacity and behavior. If you really want/need a deep cycle house battery separate from the start battery go with a battery of each type and add an isolator.

good luck... curious to see how this will workout :)

[Lucky Dawg]

Six white wires come down from the switch panel to the terminal strip. On the other side of the terminal strip are all the positive wires for the various lights, etc.. Some of the cicuits are connected by jumpers.

Above: From your post #27 in this thread.

Hey Pete,
I know it has been a couple years, but do you happen to remember how much wire you used for this whole job? Found 14ga marine duplex online at 59 cents a foot with shipping. I would think their 100 foot minimum would be enough...
http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page140.html#1422

Beats 1.19 a foot at West, of course.

[ebb]

"The boat owner simply turns the battery switch to the ON position when arriving at the boat,
and turns it to the OFF position when leaving."

Is there anything simpler then this?
"Boaters no longer have to worry about which batteries are charging or discharging."

Remembering to switch the batteries to OFF when leaving requires a circuit activated mechanical foot that kicks you in the butt as you are leaving - if you even think of forgetting.

[mrgnstrn]

I wonder if installing an "ACR" would work, but with a regular battery switch.

http://www.askjackrabbit.com/2008/03/adding-a-batter.html

http://bluesea.com/viewresource/69


C/Pete,

I almost have this setup on my C&C. The only difference is that instead of the ACR, I have a Xantrex/Heart Interface version called the PAthMaker.
link: http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/104/p/1/pt/8/product.asp

As to whether it would work for you with a "regular 1,2,All,off" switch, I think that the ACR may work, but reading the installation instructions shows that it's really important to set it up to sense "charging voltage" from both battery banks. Otherwise, it wouldn't be able to deal with the battery switch aligned to the "house" side and charging the "house" side.

The xantrex unit that I have does this automatically. it always senses all battery banks attached to it and combines them when the voltage from anyone is above xxx vdc. and that setpoint is adjustable.

I really dig it because I got it on sale for 50% off! :D :D :D

-Keith

[commanderpete]

Hey Kyle

100 feet should be plenty. I believe Pearson switched from 14 ga to 12 ga at some point, not sure why. The wire runs are pretty short. I figured 14 ga was fine.

The steaming light might require 12 ga, on paper, but I wasn't too worried about that.

Didn't make any real progress on the second battery project. I'm going to look into the Xantrex.

Still mulling over where to put the batteries.

I only work on the boat in April/May. Have to wait till next year. Just did a little grinding back there so far

Nothing to see here....move along

[Lucky Dawg]

I only work on the boat in April/May. Have to wait till next year.

Thanks Pete. I hear you. With our limited sailing season, I'd rather be sailing than toiling. As much of an old salt as I'd like to be, working belowdecks whilst bobbing in the marina makes me green around the gills. Sadie can sail belowdecks all day when we sail, but I'm good for about 5 minutes before I start feeling crosseyed. Just buying for fall - If I have the materials on hand, it is 100% more likely to happen.