Auto Pilots

[Jeff]

Just thought I would let you all know about a few minor improvements to my newly purchased Surprise (Commander #293). The first thing I did was remove the illegal head and install a small porta pottie. Following that I replaced the broken tiller with a West Marine Catalina 27 - shaved it down a bit and it works great. Along with that I had the tiller mount/bracket reinforced (it's now a beautiful bronze).
Also installed a standard Windex on the mast head - she came with a broken one. Last thing installed was a ST1000+ Autohelm - going to try that out today.
I think that will do it for this season. Early next season I plan to paint the bottom and topsides and install a mainsheet traveler.

[mbd]

Jeff, how about a pic of that tiller mount bracket? Where's you get it? How much $$?

Also, let us know how well the "ST1000+ Autohelm" - it's on my wish list too...

Happy sailing!
Mike

[Jeff]

Here is a poor picture of the bracket. I took it in to be reinforced afetr finding the beginnings of a small fracture along one of the prongs. It was returned to me with both redone and the rest of the bronze cleaned up. An impressiing piece of metal - at least to me. I am sailing to Gloucester today and will let you know how the tiller pilot performs.

[c_amos]

Tiller looks great, couple thoughts on the auto pilot.

Of course any auto pilot, windvane, or sheet to tiller steering system is only as good as your sail trim so there are factors that weigh into the decision.

Herb Tucker, the guy I bought #226 from had originally bought the ST-1000 for her, he said it would keep her on course pretty well, but that it seemed to struggle at times to maintain course. He ended up returning it after it stopped working, and upgrading to the ST-2000 which he said was worth the extra money if for no other reason because the arm travel was so much faster.

I bought this unit with the boat, it was a couple years old when I got it and I have used it a fair amount. I can not personally compare it to the ST-1000, but can say the ST-2000 has worked well for me and pass along the experience Herb relayed to me FWIW.

OBTW, if you got the little remote with yours, I am a jealous man. I lusted for it beating across the Pamlico last :D

[Jeff]

I tested the St1000+ this weekend and had a fair amount of success. It does struggle because of the excessive weather helm. I reallyhad to depower the main. The next project is a mainsheet traveler which should help. My only desire for the tiller pilot is that it let me get 30-60 minutes sleep on long single hand voyages (i.e. Nova Scotia from Boston) and get some celestial nav done. It did that yesturday on a port tack on the way to Gloucester but the starboard tack is giving me trouble. I believe iI need to reinstall the pin so that it sticks up out of the tiller further. It would occasionally pop out.

[c_amos]

I believe iI need to reinstall the pin so that it sticks up out of the tiller further. It would occasionally pop out.
They make a longer pin, mine is about 3" long. When I refinished my tiller I set it in epoxy since it is not threaded. Has worked well so far, and lets the unit sit pretty much level.

[Jeff]

Perhaps that is what I will do then. Mine is already in apoxy so I guess I will have to take it out. > imight be able to use the pin I have just a little further out.

[John]

Jeff,

I have a tillermaster and find that I don't have enough throw for sailing. It steers better than I do when under power. I have had some success when reaching under my crusing spinnaker. The weather helm on Vallhalla does overwhelm the Tillermaster port tacks as it is mounted to starboard, and can't pull the tiller as far as needed.

The trade off is power vs throw. As you move the mounting point aft along the tiller, more is accomplished with less throw but requires more power. I am still playing with where I need to mount it. I made a bracket that slips over the coaming and has an old oarlock mount at the bottom. This allows me to clamp the attachment pin to the tiller and still mount the Tillermaster at a right angle to the tiller.

PS. I mounted a Schaefer traveler on Valhalla and it was the best thing I have done. I made a template and Schaefer bent the traverler rail to match the camber just forward of the lazerette hatch.

[Bill]

Gene Roberts comments on the AutoHelm.

The picture in post #5 shows what appears to be an AutoHelm 1000 with a compass display. This model is the next one up in expense above the one installed on LADY J (A-312). I don't think it is more powerful than mine, it just has that compass display at the top of its body.

I left the placement of my AutoHelm up to Myron Spaulding's Boat Yard. They placed it about six inches forward from the aft end of the lid giving access to the starboard cockpit locker. Since it is on the locker's lid, it must be moved if you need to get into the locker itself. That can be a bother, sometimes.

This placement also takes up room along the starboard seat and makes it is easier for the skipper's butt to knock against the AutoHelm and damage the plastic fitting. That attachment to the seat (lid) is the weakest physical part of the auto helm. I have cracked mine twice and have had to improvise a repair by using a part of a tiller-extension strapped to the AutoHelm. The longer lever-arm that this location gives makes the AutoHelm plenty powerful enough for an Ariel. I was surprised by the short lever arm shown in the picture.

I have not used the AutoHelm to sail long distances, or while catching a nap. My major use has been, while single-handing, to hold the bow into the wind with the motor running while raising or lowering the sails just outside the harbor.

I have used it running down the San Francisco City front while getting the thermos out to serve tea, but it works best for me while sailing on a close beat with the club jib and a single reef in the main in winds of 18 to 25 knots. For LADY J, this point of sailing is the most neutral and easy to hold with minimum attention by the AutoHelm to the tiller.

Having the compass display on the AutoHelm in conjunction with a GPS heading would be a nice addition which I would get if I ever replaced the present auto pilot. I have had it now for more than fifteen years and it has never failed electronically, but as noted above, the connection to the seat has failed twice.

The attachment from this position to the stock Ariel tiller is horizontal, so keeping it attached to the tiller is no problem. On a rough day on the Bay an elastic loop insures it doesn't jump off the peg.

As noted by Jeff, under power, an AutoHelm outperforms most skippers.

When it was brand new, and I was fiddling with it at the dock, a passer-by stopped to predict, "You'll have more fun with that, per dollar, than anything you could add to your boat." And he was right. An early morning passage, under power, from the San Francisco Marina across a smooth San Francisco Bay to Sausalito to Myron's Boatyard (before the wind picks up) while sitting on the forward hatch up at the bow is an experience to savor.

[walberts]

On Haabet, the Autohelm pin is set into the coupling that you see screwed into the combing. It sits more level and doesn't pop out. When I'm through for the day, the coupling unscrews and gets stowed with the rest of the unit.

I'll try to attach a picture.

[walberts]

On Haabet, the Autohelm pin is set into the coupling that you see screwed into the combing. It sits more level and doesn't pop out. When I'm through for the day, the coupling unscrews and gets stowed with the rest of the unit.

[commanderpete]

Think I'll be getting a tiller pilot next Spring. Just can't steer and navigate at the same time.

As far as I can tell, there are only two choices--Simrad or Raytheon. Browsing around on the internet reveals horror stories about each of them. Neither are really waterproof.

The Simrad TP10 is about $280

Raytheon ST1000 is $400

The ST2000 is a better unit, but now we're up to $570

[John]

CommanderPete,

The Raytheon is less than twice the Simrad...How do you think you will use it.

Keep us in the loop. Given equal push/power, I would go for the shortest unit so it can better handle the weather helm under sail. I have to admit that running under my cruising chute with my feet up and watching the coast roll by is the way to go. The old Tillermaster definitely steers better than I do under power. I don't need a compass to set it up. I set a waypoint in my GPS, and turn the dial on the Tillermaster until it stops trying to change course to the waypoint.

When I was given the Tillermaster, the fellow who had been a repair station had purchased the parts inventory so I was able to get what I needed then , but I was unable to find him last year. I may be in trouble if I need parts

I still like my coaming mount and may purchase one of those "s" brackets to mount on the tiller and raise the mount point so it is level. With the bracket, the mount point is higher than if I had used the seat.

[Didereaux]

I noticed up in one of the previous posts that they had trouble with an autopilots throw distance not being sufficient, or some such. You adjust that by moving the arm up or down on the length of the tiller. Farther towards the tip means less rudder movement for a given movement of the autopilot, farther down the tiller the more the rudder movement becomes.

THere is a caveat though, since your tiller is a lever your forces change along it i.e. shorter the throw the more force needed, longer the thro(nearer the end) the less force needed.

Another area of error I have seen several times is that the drive unit and arm are NOT at right angles to the tiller when it is centered. This is necessary to achieve best power transfer and some other physics stuff. So if you move your power unit/arm placement everything must be moved!

g'Luk

[commanderpete]

Here's the links to the websites.

http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/Default.asp?site=1&Section=2&Page=87&Parent=5

http://www.simradyachting.com/default.aspx?path=%7B3D45D803-7F8E-416F-AE1C-7DED2359ACB9%7D

You can find the owner's manuals under customer support section

They do want them mounted horizontal. They each want the pin on the tiller to be 18 inches from the rudderstock.

Its difficult to compare the units because the specs aren't complete on speed, strength and current usage.

I couldn't even find anything on waterproof standard. Raymarine is coming out with new units in January which they claim are "drip resistant." Pretty sad, if you ask me.

I don't need a tiller pilot to raise or lower the sails by myself. Just want the thing so I can consult the charts and take a fix without the boat doing a Crazy Ivan.

The Raymarine units are capable of NMEA interfacing and have an optional remote, but I don't need that

[Dan Maliszewski]

FWIW, I fittted a Simrad TP22 to #199 and it worked very well. Set the socket into the starboard cockpit locker cover with a 1/2'' thick hardwood block epoxied underneath for backing. Had the remote, and many times sat on the foredeck and steered. Also, I wired it to feed from the Garmin 76, and it would sail to a Go To point with no problems. A strong performer, it was dependable for me, and I found factory support to be, well, supportive. It worked best flying as large a genoa as possible, which the Ariel liked anyway, as that setup reduced it's weather helm.

I also had read the reviews, and was wary, but had no problems.

I also fittted it to my 30 foot Flyer, and it works ok, but with the outboard spade rudder, it has some difficulty with the weather helm under anything but light winds. Under power, it is fine.

ps: I DO miss that sweet Ariel.

Dan

[joe]

Sirocco has an ST1000 in an arrangement identical to the one in walberts post and it has worked GREAT so far

[CapnK]

C'pete -

A "Crazy Ivan" - :D Hate it when that happens (or worse, *needs* to happen!). Reevers! :eek: Anyway...

Everything I have read in peoples reviews of their autopilots seems to come down to this: some *individual* units just suck, even if overall that particular model of A/P works well. There will be many happy reviews, then someone else will have had a unit that constantly strips gears, or the circuit board gets wet, etc etc...

I also remember reading somewhere on the 'net last year that the *cable remote* for the ST1000 was being discontinued - which bummed me out because I thought it was what I would get eventually, and some places sold it bundled for free with the a/p. There is still a wireless remote available, but the darn thing costs as much as - or, worse, *more than* - the autopilot itself.

I bet they call this "progress"... :confused:

By the time you buy a $400 electric a/p, and a $400+ remote, you are halfway-ish towards the price of a good windvane that has no circuit board and draws no power...

[Bill]

Hey Pete, what's the progress on the auto pilot?

[commanderpete]

The new toy gets its first real workout this weekend. I'll get some pics.

Happy and safe holiday to all

[tha3rdman]

any one thought of splitting the tiller with a fitting similiar to the one on the shaft. That way while under way with the Autopilot the tiller could be flipped up and essentially become 1/2 length (since you don't need the extra lenght for the AP)

[Lucky Dawg]

"Crazy Ivan" - had to look that one up... "Russian captains sometimes turn suddenly to see if anyone's behind them. We call it 'Crazy Ivan.'"

[commanderpete]

I'm happy with the autopilot so far. I'll post a follow-up report once I get a chance to use it some more.

It holds an excellent course when motoring. I find that steering while motoring is very boring.

I bought the Simrad TP10. I see these went up in price to around $320. I found one for $250 here (now $265).

http://eastcoastboatstuff.ecrater.com/

This business seems like one guy operating out of his garage, but I took a chance. Maybe its an old unit.

To install, you glass in a block of wood under the seat. You drill into the seat and mount the cup 23 1/2 inches from the centerline. You drill into the tiller about 18 inches up from the rudder post to mount the pin.

My Ariel class tiller happened to be just the right height at that point. Otherwise they sell mounting hardware.

[bill@ariel231]

CommanderPete

I'm using the same unit mounted on the STBD side. Did you run into any issues switching the Simrad brainbox to a PORTside install?

Bill

[commanderpete]

No, you just set it once for Port side.

I chose the Port side since I have the remote engine control box on the starboard side

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3443&stc=1&d=1152217465

By the way, you also need a 2 prong electrical deck connection. You can use any brand. I bought the Simrad directly from them (#NSK100) It's a nice one, but pricey at about $45

[tha3rdman]

Droools . . . . Maybe next year, But do me a favor, let us/we/me know how it does down wind wing-wing that and motoring it when I wish I had a autopilot and thing else is enjoyable.

[Hull376]

Say Cmdr Pete,

Any final insights or issues now that you've got it installed and been using it? I'm about sold on springing for one and need that final nudge.

[commanderpete]

I've used it a few times under sail. I thought the performance was only fair. BUT, I haven't studied the owners manual. There's stuff in there about calibrating and adjusting gain. Guess I'll play around with it this weekend.

I ain't much of a gadget guy. Got an Ipod as a present. Took me 9 months before I tried to use it. Then I hit the wrong button and the menu reads only in Spanish.

Does play musica muy bueno

[commanderpete]

Been using the autopilot a bit. I adjusted the Gain up to 7 (out of 9). The higher the gain, the more power it uses.

Most times it will hold a compass course within 5 degrees. If conditions are a bit challenging (more wind and/or waves) it will hold a course within 10 degrees. I don't really find that acceptable if there is much boat traffic about. Having the bow fall off from one side to the other may tend to confuse and annoy approaching boats.

It will never be a great helmsman, since it can't anticipate, or react to every lift and header.

Still, an autopilot is a handy thing to have aboard. You get to take a break, although you still have to keep a proper lookout.

I will call him Sinbad

At least he doesn't question my authority

[bill@ariel231]

Thanks Pete...

Simrad TP10 with the gain to 7.. I'll give it a try again. I had been blaming the variance in heading on the play in my tiller!

what size headsail did you run for that test?

cheers,
bill@231

[commanderpete]

I've tried it with pretty much every sail configuration by now. Except wing and wing. Not sure I'd trust it for that, unless I rigged up a pole and preventer.

The easier it is for a person to steer, the better the autopilot does.

Of course an autopilot is a machine. It reacts after the boat begins to go off course. To steer a boat well, you need to give it a little rudder before then-- constant small corrections.

I can always make the boat go faster than the autopilot (if I'm paying attention)

So I get to keep my job