ARIEL SCUTTER ref Admeasure/Tonnage

[ebb]

The cat is OUT of the bag.
Given serious thought to giving 338 a bowsprit.

In fact I've run it by a designer who crunched the numbers for us, the centers of effort, etc., and suggested, that because of the strength of the mast, running backstays weren't necessary. (He was the guy who also suggested raising the boom END to gain standing room in the cockpit!)

He produced a cad drawing of the rig with a 3 foot sprit - the jib stay going to the masthead, the stay paralleling to a a point on the mast where runners might terminate. Also ran the idea past a well known rigger who suggested using modern no stretch line and blocks for the runner tackle. Might need some extra winches. On a cruiser, you might want all the shrouds and stays you can set up at times.

Richard Moot's Triton #17 'Soubrette' was the original inspiration. You will see beautiful pix on the West Coast Triton maintenance pages of the conversion. And read the reasoning behind it. Cutters have always given me a charge. To see a boat that one family has owned since the beginning reborn as a two headsail rig is surely something to ponder. Soubrette has a wood bowsprit.

The conversion is so straight forward and seemingly simple, the arguement so persuasive, the result so beautiful - that I have always wished that Tim L. had scuttered us plebs thru it, piece by point.

338 will have a s.s. pipe/tube 'wishbone' sprit with legs that fit against the port and starboard toe rail, curve outboard alongside the stemfitting, coming to a rounded point where a plate will terminate the two leg pieces and provide the attachment for the bob and jib stays. A long curvacious 'V'. Some straight cross pieces will weld the legs together, provide a platform for anchor channel, and be thru drilled for bolts thru the deck. That's the idea...

All seems clear to me as a concept.

The details are muddy, I haven't found any PRACTICAL help on this. :D

[I've heard that 95% of cruising is in light air. A ladened boat can use the help larger and lighter sails provide.]

[frank durant]

I think your idea is GREAT !! It would give you many possible sail combo's for different winds and the ability to carry lots more in light air.Like ya said...the bonus is that classic look.It will be a fine little yacht Mr.Ebb

[Mike Goodwin]

You could develop lee helm when you extend sail area past the bow .
All you need is simple down sized version of the main sheet for runner tackle , no winches .
You will also want a stay from the tip of the sprit down to a point on the stem just above the water line . ( if Bill had one of those , they would be fixing the buoy and not his bow )
The gap between the inner and outer headstays is critical , if it is too small ( less than 4' ), you have a hard time tacking . I have owned 2 cutters and 2 double headsail sloops and the only ones that tacked with ease had 5' or better bowsprits and all boats were under 30' on deck .
If you want her to be a true cutter and not a double headsail sloop the mast should move aft 11" minimum , 3' maximum .

[ebb]

Thanks Mike,
Points taken. I'll see if Bill wants to post the drawing. The center of effort, is that the sail area?, is only about 6" forward of Alberg's. With rail down there's tons of weather helm on the Ariel.

There's no way the mast can be moved aft on the Ariel, unless it was put on the doghouse. Yeah, right! Maybe 2 inches aft at the most, which I may do! But gotta watch the rigid vang attachment.

I see the jib on a furler, the staysail as a solent, or like that. The jib used for lite air, the inner stay for heavy. Certainly try both headsails at once. Can't wait! Fun with versatility.

Alberg designed a number of his boats with bowsprits. Assuming the Master had a signature underbody, I wonder what he did to accommadate the cutter rig? Early cutters with long underbodies used the bowsprit jib to help steer the boat. Guess Alberg bowsprits are on bigger longer hulls. Anybody know?

[Mike Goodwin]

If you have the jib on a furler , you can have a smaller gap and just roll up when you tack . Kind of a pain in the ass, not recomended for racing , but doable .
I thought you meant a real bowsprit , like 4 or 5 feet , not a little nubby anchor rack .
You can always add a mizzen if you get too much lee helm !

[ebb]

A three foot OB bowsprit is imho just right for the Ariel!

Since we're almost designing here:
One thing to keep in mind is that if you insist, as I do, that you have an option to lower your mast (viz. hinged mast step) - you can't have a foil type furler.

Just so happens a furler for hanked on sails is making a reappearance on the market.
www.path-findermarine.com

The gear is just a little too large for the Ariel, but maybe there's a way to lighten it up. The spinner up top weighs in at 7#!

[Mike Goodwin]

3 foot , that's respectable enough . You may find an old Schafer furler from the 70's .
Someone makes an old style drum furler in bronze , cant remember who or where I saw it .
I thought the Profurl would let you drop the mast .

Harken made some nice drums for free standing furlers too.

This would work;

http://harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.ShowProd?B4RPMEB9Y976JK

[ebb]

Whoops, max luff length of the Harken 1900 is 50'

[ebb]

Mike,

Hell, I wouldn't have known this gear was meant for hank on sails! Just assumed that foil would fill the space twix the drum and swivel. The Harken what came with 338 has a nearly 4' extension befor the foil begins.

Both the Harken 1900 and the more expensive Maxi have a 28LP - if that is the luff length it may be too small. The head to bowsprit measure on my drawing is 34'. ....Unless the extensions are not included. IE the gear itself and the turnbuckle. Might be a good thing raised up for visibility.

But the stuff looks great (in pix) - it's a lot lighter, the line is smaller, the drum is only 5 1/2 inches (that's pretty tidy) Would like to see it rigged, even a picture, and some comment on it. The retro bronze one is definitely for an ocean going double dipping westsail.

[Mike Goodwin]

LP is luff perpendicular , from the luff to the transom at 90 degrees to the luff, basicly the length of the foot if it is a deck sweeper.
You don't hank on , it is free standing behind the stay .

[ebb]

What won't they think of next.

It could be a mess if something: sheet or sail, got wrapped around the stay - I'd be the one to do it!. Obviously you raise the swivel/spinner with the sail each time. You'd have to have substantial space between the standing stay and the furler. Continual control and a huge amount of tension on the halyard.
Found it rigged on multihulls and Tartens, but not a single picture. Like to hear pros and cons on this!

Have to have a big T shaped crane up top, not only for the main, but to extend out the stay forward so the furler can work. Too hightech for me I think.

[Mike Goodwin]

The swivel hooks onto the stay, this is the old system , been around since the 30's , must work?
If you have a 6" drum , then it is 3.5" behind the stay.
Yes , you need good tension on the halyard.

[Mike Goodwin]

Have to have a big T shaped crane up top, not only for the main, but to extend out the stay forward so the furler can work. Too hightech for me I think.

You can put it on your existing rig with no modifications .

[ebb]

Hey Mike, think I'll open up the Moylan's.


I'm confused til I actually see the damn thing rigged. I have the Harken catalog open here. WORDS say "The drum features a fairlead, while the upper swivel is designed for direct halyard attachment." They also say "the upper swivel has provission for halyard attachment." Confused,

despite what you say, just wondering what happens to the furler when the sail comes down? Guess the halyard is left in place, ready to go, under tension to control the gear.

Interesting points from the cruiser standpoint;
The jib/gennaker can be hoisted furled/rolled and likewise taken down rolled/furled. OK! THAT"S CONTROL. And a persuasive arguement. And if simple is best, this is the simplest furling gear imaginable. I used the original Harken that came with 338 for reefing. Seemed to work ok. But you ain't supposed to do it. Right? Have a feeling the 1900 can't be used this way.
Suppose you could pre-rig the 'solent' with a ready to go bagged 100% regular jib. Have no idea how you rig a stay under pressure: hifield lever?

Harrr ken blathers on about the gear being used for screechers in "moderate" conditions and "used as storm spinakers when it's blowing." Who are these people?

STORM SPINAKER???

Now I know what the extra holes in the stem fitting are for! And why I bought quad line handlers from Garhauer.

I'm going to have to find myself a rigger!


[this has been the first back and forth exchange I've had with Mike. Notice, that as soon as I mention an ale, Mike leaves the scene!]

[Mike Goodwin]

I'll never run from a good ale , as long as the words light or lite are not associated with the beverage or the brewer . Bass Ale is about as light/lite as I go.
Left to get a cold Sierra Nevada to wash down some tuna steaks ! Then had to take a turn around the neighborhood with the dog .

You can leave the whole thing rigged and standing or release the halyard and bring down sail and swivel to the deck , detach drum from stem and stow below all rolled up .
The fairlead on the drum is for the furling line aft to the cockpit .
This gear is real popular with the coastal racing cats , like the Worrel 1000 race entries from Fla. to Va. every year .
It is good stuff in my experience .

Oh yeah, cut the bottom out of a kids beach bucket , stretch a couple of dozen light rubber bands over it, pull the furlled sail through the bucket poping a rubber band on the sail every 2 feet and the sail is trussed up ready for stowage. Raise the sail and pull the sheets and pop the rubber bands when you need to use the sail .

Also usually with this gear , you remove the hanks from the sails .

Yeah storm spinakers, when you really want to go fast .

[commanderpete]

Can't have too many headsails

[ebb]

G A W W W D !
C'pete....Or eyes on top of the mast :rolleyes:


Mike,
The gear was, they say, designed for large singlehanders and multihulls. And the gear is hard black anodized aluminum, "impregnated with teflon."

No user reviews on the net. So how does this stuff stack up against good ole no maintenance bronze? Long term? The guys I know who are attempting to market the 35 year old Path-finder are switching to Torlon bearings, like Harken and others. They're busy getting ready for the Newport show.

The plate on the end of 338's sprit would have extra 'in-line' holes for the swivel (like the stemhead fitting). Good idea. And since there isn't any sail in the 338 inventory that would suit, I'd have a genaker made up without hanks. Correct? Would it have a wire luff? Bill keeps his jib in a long Goretex tube - is that what we're looking at here too? I come from the egyptian cotton era when sails were dried on the club lawn and then stuffed into lawndry bags.

Roll up head sails on a tiny cruiser could present a problem. Can't get soft dacron cruising sails any more? Hmmmmm

Would you recommend this H1900 furler for any Ariel?

[Mike Goodwin]

The 1900 is more than you need , which is good .
Yes you want a wire luff .
Whether you use it or not is your call , but looks like it will do the job .
The biggest problem I see with the Path-finder model , is the sail has to be deployed to remove from the stay , never fun in a blow on the end of a bowsprit .

[ebb]

Thanks Mike, appreciate yer input and observation on the Path-finder.
Sheeese, now I gotta find ondeck stowage for the headsails!

[frank durant]

Hi Ebb...jib bags look good AND keep the sun off as well as the lockers clear. May want them off in a real blow , but at that time ya don't mind a little mess in the v-berth

[ebb]

I got the one that Bacon Sailmakers had on sale on the net. Couldn't pass it up, and it is possible to take the drum apart. Maybe even replace the bearings? In case something is wrong with this one that won't show up until it's under load.

I asked 'Madigan' about wire luffs, he said wire had about a foot diameter when 'folding'. Spectra line has also been used for these genaker luffs which would mean even tighter stuffing into the bag. Suppose wire is much prefered for inherent stiffness.

What sold me was that the genaker is put up or taken down rolled up, under control.
Second, the furling gear is removable, no foil extrusions, or customizing.
Third, the rigged forestay can itself be used to fly a hanked-on jib.
Or staysail if you insist on sailing without a sprit.