Admeasurment/Tonnage

[Richard]

Has anyone here had his/her Ariel documented? If so, what is the Gross Tonnage listed? I know I can figure it out, but I was hoping someone else had already done so.
Thanks.

Richard
"Althea" #387

[Mike Goodwin]

Just so happens I got my Doc renewal in the mail today.

Her documented tonnage is 6 GRT & 6 NRT.

A documented vessel must measure 5 tons net .

If you are going to try for Documentation , hire a Doc Service to do the paper work . All the previous owners must be Id'ed through title abstracts .

Check out;

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm

[ebb]

Mike,
Maybe it's too early in the morning... but it's a morass.
Can't even find a document service.
Can you recommend one?

[Bill]

This just came in from BoatUS:

Since federal documentation is required by most lenders to record liens, now is the time to document your recreational boat. BoatU.S. provides this service and handles all the paperwork including contacting former owners, dealer/brokers, and banks. BoatU.S. is now offering a special 30% off discounted cost of $350 ($50 additional for lien recordation) to document your boat. Boats must be at least 27 feet in length and kept in the continental United States and owners must be U.S. citizens. There are additional fees that apply for boats purchased through bankruptcy, estate, trust, and repossessions. Please visit http://www.boatus.com/documentation/ or call 706-869-8241 if you have any questions.

[ebb]

How safe is it for a small yacht going foreign
with a recognisable US hailing port?

Is it 'safer' to have state numbers and a name on the transom
rather than a well known American hailing port like San Francisco or New York?

In a world that seems to be polarizing, what advantages does
documentation provide in the coastal water and ports of foreign countries?

[Bill]

How safe is it for a small yacht going foreign
with a recognisable US hailing port?

Is it 'safer' to have state numbers and a name on the transom
rather than a well known American hailing port like San Francisco or New York?

In a world that seems to be polarizing, what advantages does
documentation provide in the coastal water and ports of foreign countries?

Maybe you should ask BoatUS?

[Mike Goodwin]

If you f**k with a documented boat you are f**ing with 'W' and buddies ie a federal vessel and all the might of the US of A , a state regestered vessel and well , who's your governor ? They going to send the state police to Belize or Columbia to save your butt?

Supposedly that is/was a major advantage of documentation, but you are a federal vessel for what it's worth or not .

The Bushmils was good tonite !

[c_amos]

I posed the same question to a bluewater cruising group last week Ebb,

The replies are still coming in but so far the biggest issue seems to be that of proof of ownership. Documentation is the way the United States (federal) gov. says it is yours. If the state federalies take a fancy to your boat and it is not documented then they may be more inclined to use that as an excuse to seize it.

Down side (so far) is that it can be seized by the US gov. without your consent, and your port of call MUST be displayed on your transom so you are the target of choice if in hostile waters.

I will post more as more replies come in.

[ebb]

Have a feeling that the poor skipper of a 26...er, 27' boat in the Southern Mediterranean would be considered a pawn rather than a person.

And that everyday (WE WILLNOT GET INTO POLITICS HERE)
showing US colors and US ports of call becomes more of a provacation than proper protacol.

The list of 'safe' (ie FUN) places to visit on the globe gets shorter.
Even Zoltan's voyage seems as if it happened in an age of innocence.

Wonder if the letter of maritime law could be satisfied if you reached over the side and slapped on a peel n stick of name and port in flowing farsi?



Sure am very interested in what your cruiser friends are currently thinking. Cruise together in armadas. Arm your boat to the teeth. Stay home watch TV?
"Land was created to provide a place for boats to vist." Brooks Atkinson

[Theis]

Solsken #82 is a document vessel at 6 tons net. As I recall, the 6 tons displacement is measured based on the displacement of the Ariel to the deck, not the waterline.

The advantage of documentation is that the boat looks nicer without the numbers and stickers lastering the front of the boat.

I have not had any trouble having the port name on the back (Chicago) when travelling to Canada.I guess, at least for the time being, they are still considered friendly.

For vessels documented before about 1980 the home port is shown, not the hailing port as it is today. Today everyone's home port is Martinsburg, West Virginia.

The bad side of documentation is that the name of the port on the stern in at least 4" letters is pretty large for a transom the size of the Ariel. In Wisconsin, you still have to have the boat state registered. The price is the same as the usual state registration, but there are no state issued numbers. Wisconsin requires that you paste their two state stickers on each side of the transom, which I have refused to do.

The bad side may be that you are required, as I recall, to help other vessels in distress (as if you wouldn't do that anyway). Also, every year you have to goof around with renewals. (not every three years as it is with the state).

The real benefit is that having a documented vessel is an ego trip - it looks nice and raises questions - a ghee whiz gosh golly, whowee.

The reason Solsken was documented in the 60s is to avoid personal property taxes. As I recall a state can not tax federally registered vessels as personal property within the state. We no longer have a personal property tax.

[ebb]

MIKE, need your advice!


I've decided to go for documentation using the BoatUS service.
I understand the tonnage measurement...

What is not clear is the length measure.
I do plan to have a short bowsprit on 338,

CAN THIS BE USED TO INCREASE THE MEASUREMENT TO THE REQUIRED LENGTH?


Thanks!

[Mike Goodwin]

You might get away with it , LOA, LOD and Length Between Perpendiculars .
Don't call it a Pearson Ariel , to easy to check LOA against others .
Custom one-off rebuild , etc., etc. .
If the bowsprit is removable , by hand , hand tools or hitting a buoy hard , then probably no , wont fly .

[Bill]

I'm curious here. We have a couple of boats that are documented vessels. Peter Theis has one of them. Have the USCG requirements changed in the past 10 or 20 years such that Ariels and Commanders can no longer be documented? :confused:

[ebb]

On the 'Hampton Roads Documentation Service, Inc.'
they distinctly say that a boat of 25' will probably be able to get documented.

[Gravey]

Just wondered ebb, is that short bowsprit going to be for anchor storage, or is 338 going to become a cutter? ;)

[Mike Goodwin]

You would have to move the mast aft to make it a cutter , it would be a double headsail sloop . A boat can have multiple headsails and still be a sloop ( I've seen them with up to 4 ) .

[Theis]

The pulpit and other deck fittings, such as the cabin top height, are not included in the length, as I recall. The length refers to the hull only, and is used for calculating displacement. Besides, you don't need it, unless requirements have changed, and I don't think they have in this regard.. Solsken is Net 6 tons, which, as I recall, is a calculated figure representing the water displaced if the hull were submerged to the deck. What make the Ariel possible to meet the minimum tonnage (which used to be six tons, but now may be only five tons) is the full keel - the keel being part of the hull for displacment purposes.

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

You wrote earlier on this thread:


Just so happens I got my Doc renewal in the mail today. Her documented tonnage is 6 GRT & 6 NRT. A documented vessel must measure 5 tons net .

Check out;

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm

I endeavored to calculate the GRT and NRT for my Ariel using the Application for Simplified Measurement at: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/T3/cg5397/cg5397.form.htm

but I guessed about the depth, which I understand to be the distance from the deck to bottom of the keel. Since that varies (the sheer is not parallel with the waterline), I am a bit perplexed on how to measure that distance "D".

What values for Overall length (L), Overall Breadth (B), and Overall Depth (D), did you use to come up with 6 GT and G NT? And also where did you measure the Overall Depth "D".

Regards,

Scott

[Mike Goodwin]

Those calcs were done back in 1960's when she was new. Once you are in 'documentation' you only re-new doc , don't have to re-apply even if doc has expired.
So , 6 & 6 were already on my paperwork for decades before I came to have the boat and I have no idea how they were decided.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks For the response, Mike. I will do some more snooping around on the USCG Documentation site.

[c_amos]

U.S.C.G. National Vessel Documentation Center (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm)

[Theis]

recollection is that the CG looks at measured displacment so that the fraft is from the aft end of the keel to the deck.Solsken is net 6. Hope this helps

[dasein668]

All the previous owners must be Id'ed through title abstracts .

That's not exactly true...

If you are only applying for a recreational endorsement, then all you need to show is that you have clear title to the boat. IF your boat was at some time owned in a state that issues title for boats, then you only need to show that you have clear ownership back to the title. If you can, you can apply for a "waiver of original build evidence." That way you don't have to trace the complete ownership of the boat.

This is what we did with Dasein, which had been titled in Florida two owners previous to us.

[Tim D.]

I am looking into documenting #331 and in filling out the tonnage form if I use the correct hull form (faired in keel) I do not get to 5 tons. If I use the separate keel hull form I reach 6 tons. These are both using 25'7" LOA and 6' depth.

Those that have documented, is this how you did it?

[ebb]

Tim,
Let me quote off the Coast Guard (Department of Homeland Security) Form:

Gross Tonnage = 6 GRT
Net Tonnage = 5 NRT
Length = 26.0
Breadth = 8.0
Depth = 7.8
Place built = UNKNOWN
(because we have no paper)
Operational Endorsements = RECREATIONAL
IMO or Other Number = 338
Year Completed = UNKNOWN
(again no actual paper accompanies the boat)
Hailing Port = SAN FRANCISCO
(recognizable port, it's gonna be large on the boat somewhere.)
Hull material = FRP (FIBERGLASS)
Mechanical Propulsion = YES


What comes after the (=) sign is on the form.
And I had BoatUS do it. I figured they knew the bureaucratic language better than I. I filled out a form to send to BoatUS and some of my numbers were altered. I argued with my handler at BoatUS that I knew perfectly well who built the boat and when and where - but because there is no provenance on paper it could not appear on the 'official' document. Bothers me.

We are issued a seven digit number that has to be permanently affixted to a structural member of the boat in 3" high Arabic numerals preceded by the abbreviation "NO."

For the formula I believe I measured from the bottom of the boat to the sheer 'somewhere', using their schematic in the request form. I have no idea where that 'depth' number came from, but that is what is there. And I don't have the guts to question it. Maybe Mike Goodwin knows - but he's lubbered on us.


And I would guess I'm exempt from registering with the state. But as long as it is reasonable as it is I'm not rocking the boat and keep paying it.
Anybody know for sure???

[c_amos]

Does anyone have (or remember) the letter that was once posted on our forum from the NVDC saying the Ariel measured in? I thought this thread had a link to it at one time?

[Lucky Dawg]

I did a google search. Sometimes - not always - I find things here more quickly via goole than the search function. This discussion came up - maybe it was at sailfar? http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=115.20

[Tim D.]

Thanks for dredging that up Kyle, though it does make me chuckle at my and Craig's expense ;)

[pbryant]

I did my CG documentation on my own - without a service. All I needed was my California DMV title. The CG didn't care about the "build history" or previous owners. It appears that info is only needed for commercial registrations. Save your money - and do it yourself! $350 is a lot of money to spend for an hour's worth of work you could do on your own.

Here's the CG documentation record for Ariel #75: http://cgmix.uscg.mil/PSIX/PSIXDetails.aspx?VesselID=1108400. (The "VIN" in that record is the CG documentation number assigned by the CG. All the CG needed from me was my hull number.)

If you need a cheat sheet, use the calculations appropriate for an Ariel that are within the documentation record above.

Use this form to prove your calculations to the Coast Guard: http://www.uscg.mil/forms/cg/CG_5397.pdf

By the way, my registered "hailing port" is Omaha, Nebraska. You can use any city anywhere in the US as your hailing port, and since I'm from Omaha, I figured it was unlikely that another boat would ever be documented from there with the same vessel name. The Coast Guard just had a good laugh over that, and issued my certificate.