Bilge Pump Discussions

[commanderpete]

Where is the preferred place to run the hose from the bilge pump?

I sure dont want to cut a new hole in the hull for it.

Options considered so far:

1) Sink drain plumbing

2) Cockpit

3) Outboard motor lazarette

Assume an appropriate anti-siphon loop/ check valve on the hose.

[Theis]

Brings back memories.

I have two outlets so you can take your pick.

My Rule 3600 gph bilge pump outlet, located at the bottom of the bilge, has a 1 1/2" flexible hose going back under the aft flooring and passing upward through the gap in the flooring under the cockpit at the rudder shaft, then up as high as I could get it passing to the side of the cockpit into the starboard lasarette, through the motor lassarette bulkhead, and then a sharp 180 degree bend down passing underneath the aft lasarette floor and through an outlet fitting mounted through the hull alongside the outboard motorwell. The outlet is only a few inches above the water, but, because it is facing downward, it is concealed and doesn't hurt the asthetics.

Originally I had a check valve at the highest point, just underneath the aft part of the cockpit seat where the hose passed through to the aft lasarette. I was then advised, told, read, etc. that there MUST NOT BE A CHECK VALVE in the bilge pumpt line. The check valve can, and does get plugged just when you need the pump. A check valve, I have been told is an ultimate NO NO and can be very dangerous, according to those that allegedly know.

What I did instead, after I had removed the check valve (incidentally, I might mention, a 3" rigid plastic tube fitting replaced it going through the bulkhead and connecting the sections of hose on either side of the bulkhead), was to pierce a small hole in the upper side of the hose in the aft lasarette just forward of where it goes through the bulkhead, and insert a small piece (1/4") of clear flexible tubing into the hole. That is the anti-siphoning device. When the pump is on, a little water comes out, particularly at start up, but the clear hosing is bent at about 90 degrees so the water passes just under the aft deck and is directed to the side of the motor well so nothing gets wet. Any water that comes out drains out the motor well drain holes discussed below.

The other drain is for a Whale Gusher hand pump. The outlet for that is a 1 1/2" hose that also passes high through the aft lasarette bulknead and drains to the bottom of the aft lasarette.

I have drilled two holes at the forward end of the motorwell that drain the aft lasarette at the bottompart of the lasarette, a few inches forward of the bulkhead. So when I hand pump, the water goes into the aft lasarette through a hose. The draining of the lasarette is separate. As long as it drains faster than I pump, I'm OK. For anti siphoning, I rely on the Gusher's valve action.

Hope that gives you an idea or two.

[Gary Yaniga]

On my ariel I just ran the hose up to the bilge to the first inspection hole in the floor and when in use hose is put in sink.

[Theis]

In earlier years I did much the same thing with a Thirsty Mate, and never had a problem. I still carry a Thirsty Mate.

However, my experience is that when the boat is really in trouble, or you come to the boat while it is at the dock but up to its gunwales, the last thing in the world you have tme to do, or want to do, or can do is to arrange the bilge pump exit hosing. I believe that standard safety practice is that the bilge pump be operable from the cockpit - totally.

Unless there is some way to secure or to hold the drain hose in the sink, my experience is that hoses flop around and will eventually make a mess in the cabin, pumping water back into the bilge.

The sink drain hose is not large enough for a decent sized bilge pump. Even using a Thirsty Mate to pump out the bilge, I fill the sink and have to stop while it drains. A bilge pump requires 1" to 1 1/2 inch hosing more or less straight through

You might want to consider, putting the hose into the cockpit, rather than the sink, because the cockpit drain hose is larger capacity and there is a bigger plenum.

Just some thoughts.

[Brent]

Need some advice on bilge pumps. #66 came with one of those long hand pumps (looks like a bicycle air pump), but it seems to be terribly inadequate to me and I certainly wouldn't trust it in an emergency.

Can anyone recommend any particular brand/model?
How about size?
Dealers where I can find it/them?
Configurations:
--I've read in Good Old Boat about using a large electric supplemented by a smaller one, but are electric pumps really necessary?
--Where do you put a manual pump? In the cockpit? Near the bilge? One in each place?
--I've read that you should never put one where you have to open a locker/door/whatever to use it. If that is the case, would a cockpit-mounted pump have to be out in the open and in the way? Can a pump be mounted out of sight with the handle easily reached?
--Are there bilge pumps that can be foot operated?

[Bill]

Those "tube" pumps are not very effecient if there is a lot of water to move. Mostly, they satisfy the race committee :p

I believe Practical Sailor found that the Whale Gusher Titan was a good pump - but that surprisingly, Whale's little "Urchin" pump moved more water.

[Bill]

The manual has a discussion of where to locate a manual bilbe pump.

For safety, it should be mounted where it can be operated from both inside and outside the cabin.

For ease of operation, it should be mounted so the handle is vertical (on the bridge deck. That way you move it back and forth rather than up and down (less tireing).

That said, most people mount a Whale, Edson and Guzzler pump on the cockpit locker bulkhead near the tiller.

[Bill]

Locating a bilge pump for inside and outside operation: Only one boat have I seen with such an installation. The pump was mounted on the bridge deck bulkhead in the cockpit. The other side was over the sink in the Ariel's main cabin. Will look for an old photo we had.

Bilge pumps are sold in local chandleries and can be found in Defender, USBoat and West Marine catalogs. The little Urchin runs about $60 with a through deck mounting and removable handle. You might send a message to Theis (a forum member) and ask his opinion of the Urchin he purchased last year.

[Brent]

Bill,

Thanks for the advice.

But, does anyone else out there have an opinion on bilge pumps? Anyone use electric pumps? Any reason why I should?

[S.Airing]

I have a Rule 2000 electric pump on Sirocco with an 1 1/8 discharge line.Pumps alot of water fast at the flick of a switch.Had a hand pump when I got the boat,took it out and threw it away.

[Janice Collins]

I think its ideal to have a hand AND an electric pump. What if you don't have power....that manual pump will look pretty good then...

And to have a bilge pump automatically turn on if need be while no one is on board can be a boat saver.

[S.Airing]

Hand pumps are great if you have crew to switch off with,I prefer a bucket for back up because I sail alone.Dont know about you but I`m 38 years old and cant pump very long by my self.I prefer a large battery bank and a large capacity pump.

[Janice Collins]

I agree. When all else fails, the bucket. I had to resort to that when the battery operated And manual pump failed !!

If you sail alone, then what do YOU do to "tie down" the tiller while you leave the cockpit for a short while?? Inquiring minds want to know.

[S.Airing]

Sorry I sail the Chesapeake Bay,I can allways run the boat aground as a last resort.Pluse I have an autopilot,which I use most of the time anyway.I think that you only sail in the ocean so you dont have my options.But if your alone you cant do both work the pump and fix the leak.

[S.Airing]

Here is Sirocco`s bilge pump a Rule 2000

[Theis]

All good points.

I installed the biggest Rule pump - I believe it is 3600 gph (aka 60 gpm) with a float switch. Water exits through the hull just to port of the motor shaft. My thinking was that if I needed a pump in a bad way, to save a few bucks getting a smaller pump was not a prudent choice. I believe the tube is 1 1/2".

In addition, I installed the Whale Urchin which I can't commend highly enough. Spectacular! Pumped water exits to the motor well. The pump is mounted in the cockpit, on the vertical surface (not the horizontal seat), about in line with the rudder stem. It is very easy to pump, and I don't find the up down action particularly tiring.

The reason I mounted it so far aft is so that someone who was pumping (assuming I was not sailing alone) would not get in the way of steering and navigating, etc. In other words, would be out of the way.

Lastly, I have a Thirsty mate with a hose that can reach from the bilge to the cockpit or the sink (which I also use for the dinghy), and, of course, a bucket WITH A SHORT LINE ATTACHED. The Thristy Mate is a lot of work and pumps a pittance compared with the Whale.

The electric bilge pump I do not leave operative when I leave the boat. If the leakage is that bad, the battery will be drained/dead and the results will be the same. Worse, the boat may be dry, and I won't know that there is a leak and the pump has been clicking on and off. The benefit of the float switch is that it keeps the pump from running when the bilge is dry.

[Janice Collins]

What are those metal eyebolts?? sticking up through the bilge seen on S. Airing's last post?

[S.Airing]

They are were the keel was lowered in place.

[SkipperJer]

I just bought my Commander (hull #270) in July. It has never had a bilge pump. For a number of reasons (not the least of which is the smelly black pool I just discovered in the depths of the bilge) I’m going to install an electric pump before it goes back in the water this Spring as well as carry a hand pump and a bucket.
After reading all the posts in this thread I'd like to ask for collective opinions on the best place and technique to mount the electric pump and direct the outlet.

I’ve been sailing for five years but this is my first boat so it’s OK to assume I don’t have much in the way of boat-smarts. My outboard has a generator and the boat also has a shore powered battery charger both feeding a relatively new battery.
Thanks,
Jerry McCann

[Theis]

Here is what I have done, and it works fine. I have an outboard, and as said earlier, both the Whale and the Rule 3600 ghp pump. As for the electric pump, my figuring was that if I was going to the bother to install one, for the added few bucks, why not put in the largest.

The pump and float switch are in the lowest part of the bilge, approximately alongside the sink counter (but obviously far below below), with the switch facing forward. The 1 1/2" flexible hose (as I recall - it is standard full sized for that pump - no reduction) runs under the floor board going aft, coming up next to the rudder stem, running to the top of the stern lazarette bulkhead on the starboard side, through the bulknead, down the aftside of the bulkhead under the stern lazarette floor and out a through hull fitting. The fitting is a lexan/marelon whatever fitting mounted through the hull bottom just forward of the transom. It is normally a bit above water, but can not be seen (unless you are in the water looking up). The discharge shoots down, rather than out the back which it would do if mounted through the stern.

The pump is fused with a 20 amp fuse (not the 25 recommended - because my electrical panel isn't rated for 25 amps. I have not had any trouble with the fuse failing. Make sure all electrical connectors in the bilge are the waterproof kind.

Anti siphon protection is mandatory. Do not use a check valve. For anti-siphon protection, I have done is to put a 1/8" hole in the top of the discharge tube in the stern lazaterrt at its highest point where the hose runs through the bulkhead into the stern lazarette (it is for the anti-siphon protection that I made the loop to the top of the lazarette bulkhead). When the pump runs, yes some water does come out through the little hole into the lazarette, but that area gets wet anyway. If you want to control the direction of the trickle that comes out, put a 1/8" hose in the hole and direct the water to the side (but do not drop the level of the drain hose or you will lose the anti-siphon capability.

[SkipperJer]

Thanks for the response. Like I said, I'm a boat-rookie so it generated more questions. Be patient with me while conduct a little orientation to what I found.

I have three covers in the cabin floor that access the bilge. Number one is forward of the compression post. I had some deck fitting leaks which led to an occasional puddle in this area. The gear was rebedded before it got too cold here and the leaks have stopped.

Number two is near the sink area. It sounds like your pump is installed here Theis. If the capped thru-hulls for the original head or the sink drain gave way water would head this way so that makes sense to me. But the bilge goes on for a quite a bit beyond that which starts me wondering.

Number three is under the bridgedeck just aft of where the ladder rests on the cabin floor. One can see the keel sloping back into the darkness from here.

Number four is located just aft of the winches and is cut into plywood resting over the aft bilge area. By putting a light there and peering in through panel number three I found the source of the my spouse's dislike of the boat. There is quite a bit of foul-smelling water down there (thirty-six years worth maybe). This space begs for a pump to clear it occasionally although I imagine that most of the water now there came from condensation.

In the event of a major thru-hull failure it seems this area would fill with a considerable amount of water. Landlubber logic would indicate a high-volume pump should go down there in an effort to maintain the boat on its lines as long as possible in the event of a major leak.

However, it's also clear from this discussion group that several people put their pumps under the cabin floor defying landlubber logic. Besides, even an agile small child would have trouble getting down there to put one in.

I have hit submerged objects in sailing club boats in Baltimore's Inner Harbor. No damage was done but the club's J-22's didn't have old thru-hull fittings either. I'd appreciate some input from experienced Commander owners before I start looking for that agile small child.

Thanks,
Jerry McCann

[Bill]

The cabin layout of the Ariel and Commander are qute different. The sink on the Ariel is almost directly over the low point of the bilge. In the Commander, the sink is located further forward. Most everyone locates their electric pumps at the lowest point in the bilge, regardless of the sink's location. :p

Standing water in the bilge has other than smelly consequences. As noted in the manual, this water can get into the hull laminate. Good idea to keep it dry down there.

[commanderpete]

The lowest part of the bilge on the Commander is reachable from floorboard # 3, right behind where the bilge drops away. Its a little difficult to work there.

Its been suggested that you could mount the bilge pump and float switch next to eachother on a small board, maybe one of those small plastic kitchen cutting boards. That would make installation easier. You could also pull the unit out a bit for cleaning and servicing.

I'm thinking of trying that, but I would want to make sure the whole unit couldn't overturn somehow.

The bilge pump wouldn't be on the very bottom of the bilge. But, bilge pumps aren't effective for getting the very last of the water out of the bilge anyway.

You're taking the right approach by preventing water from leaking into the boat in the first place.

I've never been able to achieve a truly dry and dusty bilge, even after hunting down any deck leaks. A little water will get in through the cowl vent at the bow. Also, a small amount can get in around the hatchboards in a driving rain. I won't be happy until I have cobwebs in my bilge.

A few coats of epoxy or bilgecoat paint on the bottom of the bilge is a good idea too. Whenever I do epoxy work, I prepare a section of bilge so I can smeer the excess epoxy down there.

[commanderpete]

By the way, Jerry,

You mentioned that your Commander has a bridgedeck and ladder leading up to the cockpit. I know that's how Alberg designed it, but I haven't seen any Commanders built that way.

Usually the companionway is cut out at the bottom with only one step down. Makes getting in and out easy, but more worrisome for offshore work.

Take a look at this beat up Commander someone is trying to sell on the internet.

[Bill]

If I'm recalling correctly, there are some Commanders with bridge decks. Maybe some owners will let us know if their Commander is so equipped, and tell us what hull number they have.

[Theis]

If I correctly understood what you wrote, it sounds like the layout is the same/similar to my Ariel. Is it possible that you have an Ariel hull? On the floor underneath the two steps leading up to the cockpit there is an opening, about 8"X8" I would guess (It is covered up when the steps are in place). When that lid is removed, you look right down to the deepest part of the bilge - which is where my electric bilge pump rests (and the inlet for the Whale as well). It is narrow enough there so that the pump can not tip over (the electric pump I mounted on a board per instructions). The second cover you referenced is where I store beer, and that takes priority. Beer I use frequently, the pump only once in a while.

My boat sank in the Chicago Ship and Sanitary Canal, and cleaning the bilge was the last major task. I didn't know what I would find. Ebola? I used a good strong detergent, washed it several times, and coated it with Gluvit, an epoxy that remains flexible and can take pressure from the contact side (like water trying to get in). Then took several Turkish baths.

It sounded like your fourth cover was in the motor well. Right? Wrong? (Is your boat an inboard or an outboard?) Is there any chance that the black stuff is oil from an engine that has collected over the years?

What I don't understand about that fourth cover is that if it is forward of the motor lazarette, any water would run right into the deepest part of the bilge, immediately. I clean out the boat by srpraying water under the cockpit floor and let the water drain right into the bilge, start the pump, and the whole thing is done faster than I can get out of the wet clothes.

The only place junk wouldn't drain immediately would be from the stern lazarette, which is supposed to be sealed from the main hull. It is conceivable that that lazarette has bad stuff in it and is slowly leaking into the main bilge through a leak. Is this a possiblity?

Or is this really a Commander and I'm talking about a different layout?

[Theis]

By the way, Commander Pete, I used green lumber (a 1 X 6" as I recall) for mounting the pumb on the floor of the bilge, and it fits at the bottom very snugly. The electric bilge does not drain out the last little bit. But the Whale does.

Getting all the water out of the bilge is very important. You don't want the dirty bilge sloshing around the tops of the beer cans. Your friends might get ebola (by now, of course, the skipper who has had his beer sloshed for years, is likely immune).

[Mike Goodwin]

He must have a Commander , he mentions a compression post , my Ariel dont have one .

[mrgnstrn]

somewhere along the line here, someone said that the low spot (on the ariel) is directly under the sink. on my boat it isn't there, but further back.

i have a small square hatch behind where the battery would sit, and that lets me see into the real depths of the bilge, which is even futher aft, aft even from the two lead pigs/bricks. i have attached a marked up pic. on the picture, the red line is where i approximate the bottom of the bilge to be. the two black things are the lead bricks. the blue line is where battery platform slopes back and up to the cockpit sole (ie, the floor/surface which has the sqare hatch thru which i can see the depths) the brown parts are all the hatches in my flooring, two cabin and one under/behind the sink.

it is very narrow in the depths back there. it makes me wonder if the limiting factor on electric pump capacity is the width of the pump. i have yet to install any pumps on my little boat, but that will be the first order of business, to pump out the bit of 40-year old stagnant water. (i approximate 4 gallons worth, but given the shape, could be off quite a bit). the current water level only touches the back of the deepest lead brick.

[Mike Goodwin]

I had the same problem in #45 when I got her , plus there was 6" of sludge at the bottom of the sump.Smelled like a skunk had died in there .
1st , get a wet/dry shopvac and suck all the water and crap out ( it will just clog a bilge pump).
2nd , pour in a gal of clean water and some pinesol or Simple Green or whatever and scrub with a toilet brush (long handled).
3rd , vacumn and rinse & repeat 'till she is sweet smelling .

With the vac you can get it completely dry , bilge pump will always leave a quart or 2 down there .

[SkipperJer]

Thanks for all the responses! I can tell this will save me a lot of time and effort. I appreciate the help.

Here is some information in response to all the points raised.

Yes, this is definitely a Commander built as designed (Hull #270). The bridgedeck and ladder are a little awkward sometimes but offer good protection against water in a 9-foot cockpit flooding into the cabin.

I've attached a copy of a line drawing with the access hatches labeled as well as pointing out the location of the "putrid puddle". I think the pump(s) will go where the puddle is now. Commander Pete's advice to work from the 3rd access hatch makes the most sense but it is going to be difficult. I may be able to remove the side walls of the sail lockers and gain some access under the cockpit that way. Whichever way I go will be slow and awkward but I'm determined to get a pump down there before venturing into the Chesapeake again.

Ariel owners may understand better now why this boat never had a pump. It's awfully hard to get to the aft end of the bilge. The Commander's 9-foot cockpit is great but it makes access to the bilge below the cockpit floor very difficult. I now also understand why I was confused by comments about pumps under the cabin floor. The cabin goes far enough back for that to work in an Ariel but not in a Commander.

Thanks again for all the help. I'll report back in how it goes.
Jerry McCann

[Ted]

I have four pumps on board...

1) A manually switched Rule 2000 running off the switch at the electrical panel. Output routed through hull. Just sits at the very bottom of the bilge.

2) A manual/automatic Rule 1500(?) that has two wires STRAIGHT TO THE BATTERY (so it is always ready in automatic as long as the battery is alive) and also switched by the (same) manual switch on the electric panel. Output routed through scupper. Just sits at the bottom of the bilge.

3) A manual one mounted near the tiller as discussed earlier.

4) A simple portable hand pump.

In hind site, I wish both electrics were manual/automatic and both routed straight to the battery and both on SEPARATE switches so I could tell when one of them went out. That'll be the next upgrade.

Now a follow up questions. Why is it that battery mounting and bilge pumps get tremendous response, but my query on jib track placement got only one (Thanks Theis). Are we sailors or mechanics? :) :)

Ted

[Theis]

I have a clue, perhaps, why the pump issue gets such feedback and the track issue gets so little.

Everyone has concerned themselves in some way with, or thought through the pump issue- thus all those responses.

On the other hand, my best guess is that there are few that have replaced/reset the tracks. I did it because my aft starborad track pulled out, and my forward tracks became unusable. The replacements (particularly the aft ones) are a pain. When replacing the forward ones, I could not get the duplicate and got, as I recall, a Shaeffer track having a different length and different screw hole settings. So that begged the issue as to where I should put it, hence my response.

I'll be interested in how you set yours, although there is not much chance I am going to change mine again. For me it is done and done and done, right or wrong.

[Bill]

There was an earlier discussion of track placement, maybe that's why no response to the quesition. We'll try to find it (very likely, it was within another thread -- it's so hard to herd cats).

Building on Peter's thought, most active track placers are in the racing fleet. Cruising sailors tend not to bother. In most cases, they may not have even installed a traveler mainsheeting system, but continue to rely on Pearson's original fixed placement.

That also goes for jib control. Pearson had the jib sheets leading from a high clew sail to a block on the coach roof (reason for the aluminum straps) and then to the primary winches. Also, there was usually a short piece of track just in outside the large windows.

Pearson's Genoa and spinnaker track is placed at the outer edge of the deck back by the cockpit.

In the racing fleet, the coach roof arrangement and short jib track are replaced with a jib track located between the shrouds and the cabin trunk. For those PHRF racers using sails other than the class jib (110%) the Genoa / spinnaker track can run at the outer edged of the deck (sometimes on the toe rail) from just behind the aftermost shroud to the end of Pearson's original placement. Block placement depends on the size of the sail (120 to 180 percent).
Note that the sheets for the jib go outside the first shroud and inside the next two. Genoa sheets go outside all of the shrouds. As for specific track placement, well that's often a closely guarded secret:) Maybe I can get some photos that will give you some ideas. And, start a "track" thread.

[Theis]

Bill:

That is very interesting. I had assumed that the cabin top strap was for the 70% jib sheet in a real blow. Ordinarily the sheet would run through the block on the forward track to the jib clew. But in a blow, I would run the jib sheet from the strap, through a block on the clew and then back to the block on the forward track to the winch. That way the purchase on the jib sheet is doubled.

Another theory shot to blazes.

[Ted]

Theis,

Interesting... Your description of what to do "in a blow" is what I have always done. My father ordered the boat without (and never installed) winches, so we needed that extra block to reduce load. That system has always worked very nicely in both light and heavy airs. Now I finally have winches, but will have to wait to install them until I do some wood working.

Ted

[Theis]

Ted:

I have not had to use the 2:1 "double sheet" technique since I relaunched Solsken in 2000 - only because I have become less aggressive as to bad weather sailing and have lucked out. But I do recall using it in earlier years and was very pleased, not only with the ease of getting the sail in, but, as I recall, on those occasions when I was driving into heading seas, I could really strap the foresail in and both get a couple extra points of tack and better drive. I also seem to recall that there was significantly less flogging of the clew, i.e. it was more difficult for the sail to run wild and the clew to pound the sail and foredeck crew (if necessary) to smithereens.

[Tony G]

Not to verify the dolt that I am, but what is this cabin top strap you all are refering to here. The previous owner did make some changes to 113 but I see no evidence of 'hardware past'. Any time I find a picture of one of your Ariels or Commanders I study it for days and I just don't recall seeing anything on the cabin top that I don't allready have. Of course, pictures would be helpful.
Very sincrely, The Dolt

[Theis]

We'll see if this helps. In the attached photo you can see the short track on the deck which has a block through which the jib sheet runs (notice these is a Shaeffer track, not the sail hoist type track used originally on the Ariel). The blue jack line lies somewhat over the track. The sheet goes to a block on the clew of the jib, and back to the eye shown at the forward edge of the main cabin.

[mrgnstrn]

i thought it good to drag this old thread up:
Following Mike Goodwin's advice, i got a shopvac (for only $12 at a garage sale, such a deal!) and got most of the water out. it had thawed by wed's night, but by the top had barely frozen by thurs night, though it was easily dispatched by the shopvac.

however two things:
1) water seemed to seep back into the puddle. this may be explained by the melting of ice, or maybe maybe there is little resivoir inbetween the lead bricks and where the keel drops off, but nonetheless, weird. of course it got me thinking about part 2.

2) where is the "keel void" talked about by the manual? looking from the inside, i can't figure out how i am not looking at the inside of the outer skin and not the void. where is the void? is that where this water is coming from? is the sky falling? what is the meaning of life?

now, keep in mind this hull is (supposed to be) hull #3, so the method to built a hull at the factory was likely still in a state of flux. is it possible that the first few hulls didn't have a void? maybe i just need someone more tech-savy than me to circle it on a drawing and post it.

ok, it is resolved, i am getting a damn digital camera to take pics of this crazyness.

<onto/soapbox>
and for you in the VA, MD, DC, DE, and PA area, Fawcett's in annapolis is supposed to be having a big sale on saturday/sunday. i only mention it because now that there is only one huge corporate mega boat store, i feel like actively supporting this mom-and-pop establishment. and they know of which the speak on all subjects, and no pimples.
<off/soapbox>

km#3

[Bill]

From our experience with the voids in the hull and water, we found that the laminate had collected some of the water and the voids a bunch. Water standing in the bilge tended to help fill the voids! Found that out when we were hit by a heavy rain with the boat totally stripped. The earlier boats may not have had the bilge sealed which was done because the two sides of the hull were so close together that you cannot get into the area. Pearson poured foam into the void and capped it with a layer of fiberglass. This became the bottom of the bilge. Unfortunately, it was not barrier coated and some of the water standing in the bilge will enter the void, soak the foam and enter the laminate.

We prepped and sealed the bilge to stop the problem. If you follow the manual and drill those holes in the hull, you will likely get water to drain.

[Theis]

This is info for whatever it is worth, to add to the body of knowlege on this subject, as I understand the subject. With that intro I don't need a disclaimer.

I have a drain at the bottom of the keel of Solsken, #82. Every season I pull the plug and water pours out. I can't figure where it comes from. The bilge, up to the floorboards has been meticulously covered with several coats of Gluvit, so it should be waterproof. The keel bottom has been sealed before being painted with anti-fouling paint.

When I rehabed it, I had the boat lying on its side while I carefully repaired the bottom of the keel, and Gluvited it.

Although there is always a modicum of water in the bilge, below the pumping level, it appears to stay at that level - although that might be presumptious. Perhaps it is filling as fast as it is going out.

Gluvit is supposed to be flexible, and unlike fiberglass, not dependent upon whether if bonds everywhere to the surface of the bilge. So I should not be concerned about a crack. I can not believe the plug leaks (in which case, where does the air go.

Good luck finding the monster.

[ebb]

PS (Vol 30, #4) features testing and rating on 27 electric bilge pumps in this issue. Since last year has anybody given more thought to what the ideal situation is for the Ariel?

My research finds that one has a small pump at the bottom to take care of the dribbles, with a large capacity mounted up higher - to help get serious water out when needed. Pundits then say that a manual pump easy for the helmsman to use in the cockpit is necessary, and a separate manual located below in the cabin that is easy to use from a sitting position. Cruisers seem to equip themselves with a giant Edson gallon-a-stroke portable as well.

It doesn't appear any of these pumps can be Y-valved to share a hose. That means that there is a submersible in the bottom and also 3 hose ends with their strainers and the float switch.

Float switches PS, in their eccentric way, just ignore in their testing. Only one INternal float switch pump was tested (WM Attwood, Sahara S1100. $90.)* Of course in my eccentric way I can't understand why all bilge pumps don't have internal float switches. Can someone tell me why? [And how come no submersibles have the outflow opening out the TOP??]

SO, the ideal installation has the bilge stuffed with pump, switch, wires an assortment of strum boxes three hoses, and little room left for bilge water and the odd sock! Besides, how is all of this going to fit in the A/C sump?

And where do all the thruhulls go for all the outflow? Certainly, the only safe place for boats that sail on their ear is up near the toerail, Right? You don't dump bilge water in the cockpit. Correct? Doesn't this mean loops with vacuum breakers? Permanently installed manual pumps would have safety loops and anti-backflow vacuum breakers also.

Man, that's a lotta stuff.

I'm not ignoring what Brent, Bill, Janis, Theis, S, Airing and Skipper Jer came up with last time. Just want to continue the discussion!

*only one I assume (since no dimensions are given in the PS test report) that can go to the bottom of the sump in 338 - there is another as big as an inverter for which PS does give measures (5"X8"x6") made by Lovett. It is vertually described as a 'rebuildable' float-switch pump that you can pull maintenance on. Sounds good to me! Depends on how easy it is to remove the strainer for cleaning. Snap off, twist off is OK, Dinky little screws, forget it. I'm leaning towards these two. to hell with a separate float switch! Oh, and thanks PS!

Reliability is EVERYTHING with a bilge pump. PS could have a followup
survey of pumps in use on subscribers boats. Manufacturer warranties are 1 or 3 years, but how long can you rely on your Rule 27D on the water? Is the short warrenty a suggestion that you install a new one every season!?

[Theis]

I have two bilge pumps with two separate sets of hoses and outlets - totally independent systems

The electric one is a Rule (the biggest), the pump and float switch located at the bottom aft end of the bilge, the float switch facing forward. The flexible hose runs under the floor underneath the cockpit through the top of the starboard aft bulkhead and down through the bottom of the boat just forward of the transom (it can't be easily seen from the stern and is facing down) At the highest point of the hose, just under the deck and immediately aft of the bulkhead, I put an anti-siphon hole in the tube, and a small neoprene tube which directs any water that comes out into the motor well.

The second one, a Whale Gusher as I recall, is mounted in the aft end of the cockpit on the side of the port bench, just underneath the bench top. The outlet goes directly into the motor well (there is no through hull). The inlet is adjacent to and immediately aft of the Rule pump.

The Whale I use for small amounts of fluid (like when a beer can breaks or some dummy - like me - inadvertently leaves the hatch open in a rain storm). The Rule pump is for larger amounts of water (like when - oops, I appear to have a problem), or when I clean out the bilge.

I use the Rule float switch to turn off the pump, but do not use it to automatically turn on the pump. I have a manual switch in the switch panel for that. The reason is that if I have enough water in the bilge to trigger the big pump, I want to know about it.

[Tony G]

Theis-what about when you are not with the boat? Do you leave the Rule 'on the ready' incase a slow leak develops or some other event occurs that causes a minor leak? Obviously a blown scupper hose would quickly drain the battery bank and unless some kind and caring individual stepped in at first notice of a constantly running bilge pump she'd probably sink at the dock.
which-
leads me to believe that you should never leave your boat-Ebb-since you'll spend much, much more time on your craft maybe more than one hand operated bilge pump hooked in concert with the same pump lever would be the way to go for primary pump. Save the the battery for more important things, radio and lights. That way each direction of the stroke would move water overboard. I dunno-just a thought. Tony G

[marymandara]

The big whale gusher dual-diaphragm deck pump is a sweetie, something like 40 GPM. Each direction on the handle gives a splurt, and if one diaphragm fails the pump still works at 1/2 capacity. Spendy, but worth every penny. You can find them used in the 100.00 range usually, and the overhaul kit is about 50 bucks to send away for. I'm using one of these as the belowdeck last-ditch pump on the Triton...was playing with making a vacuum head and using it for the flusher, too, but probably won't. A friend of mine mounted one of the same in the cockpit of his Renegade at one point, right by the bridgedeck. Looks and sounds more in-the-way than it was. Ened up replacing it with a 4-inch diameter, bronze Wilcox piston pump that tosses a great huge lot of water (we never did measure) out into the cockpit sole and mounts down thru with the brackets secured to the front wall of the cockpit and a hose inside leading down to the bilge sump. Nice fellow that he is, he tipped me off that there was another in the same place and I snatched it up for 35 bucks! After fighting it apart, a new piece of leather was installed, shined it all up, we're in biz! These were really common on old workboats so are not uncommon to see in the seajunk stores. There was a smaller-diameter model made and you see 'em in a lot of old wood sailboats, but this is Da Bomb. Looks real cool in the cockpit, too! If you get tired, you can use the boom vang to pump on it!

Dave

[Theis]

Tony:

Good point you raise. I had the very problem you addressed in the late sixties. Every weekend when I went out to the boat, I found an increasing amount of water and couldn't figure out what was going on.

My experience is that those leaks start small and accelerate. It is for that very reason that I don't want the pump on when I am off the boat. If there is an inordinate amount of water, I need to fix it pronto.

On the other hand, if the leak is massive and sudden, the boat will sink regardless, since the battery will be shot in not much time (the pump draws 20-35 amps).

So the answer to your question is that I turn off all electrical (the main throw switch) when I leave the boat, figuring it is more important for me to know that my battery is fully charged when I return.

[Scott Galloway]

Prior to heading downwind this afternoon on my return trip to Santa Cruz, I was roaring along close hauled on a port tack. By my GPS I was making 5-9 to 6.2 knots with steady twenty knots of wind gusting higher.I had been below messing with my GPS and a chart while my self-steering lines did the work. All was dry below then.

I ran dead downwind for a while with the main up full and a class jib. I know that I was doing better than 8 knots with the swell and wind directly behind me, but I couldn't leave the tiller long enough to check my GPS. I eventually had to head for Santa Cruz. With a gusty 20+ mph wind on my port bow I was heeled over to 40 degrees. However when I finally slipped in behind the point where the water was calm, I once again went below to discover that the cabin sole and lots of other stuff was drenched. My deck shoes, which I had left below, looked like they had been swimming.

I lifted a hatch board, and the bilge was 3/4 full of murky water. When I had been heeled to 40 degrees, the water must have come out of the bilge and run up the hull to flood the locker beneath the starboard settee and even further up the hull to the opening at the forward end of the bench into the wet locker, which I suppose is intended to drain the settee bench. Unfortunately, this time it worked in reverse to drench the starboard cushion. The bottoms of the lifejackets in my closet were also soaked. Also drenched were my tools, fasteners and other goods stored in the locker underneath the settee. It was a mess.

With the manual bilge pump, which is mounted in my cabin beneath the companionway hatch, I quickly pumped the water out of the bilge. Satisfied that if I was sinking, I wasn't sinking very fast, I headed leisurely into the harbor.

After searching for a source, I concluded that the water must have come from something other than a deck hardware or hull-deck seam leak. There was too much water for one thing, and secondly the mess beneath the settee cushion looked a lot like bilge water and not so much like a fresh leak from above. The cowl vent on my bow was my first thought, but the anchor rode directly beneath the vent was dry as was the anchor locker as a whole. The V berth area and its raised floor were totally dry, as were all of the shelves in the V Berth and the shelves above the settees. The chainplates were dry. Only the teak main salon floor and starboard side of the boat up to the height of he settee cushion were wet. Even the pillows that sit against the hull on the settee cushion were dry.

Since the lazarette locker fills with water when running downwind and on a broad reach, and on a close reach under certain conditions, I checked the bulkhead separating that locker from the rest of the boat, but I could not find any openings in the bulkhead that could have leaked water into the bilge.

My suspicion is that the manual bilge pump is the culprit. The bilge pump pumps the bilge water overboard through the transom. The exit port is rather low on the port side of the transom, but above normal water level. I do not know whether that is standard or a modification. I do not see a specification or drawing for one in the manual, but the discussion about bilge pump installation in the manual makes me suspect that my bilge pump is other than original.

There could be a break in the line, or the system could be installed in such a manner that allows water to siphon from the sea through the transom into the bilge. My bilge pump outflow is mounted through the port side of the transom. Since the port side of the boat was dry, a break in the line is unlikely, but I will check the line. After pumping the bilge dry and letting the boat sit for a couple of hours the bilge remained dry. Of course the transom is above water when the boat is docked. My bilge is normally bone dry.


I would think that a manual bilge pump installation be made in such a way that even pressurized water will not flow from the opening in the transom into the bilge. Excuse the ignorance, but don't these things have a bult-in antu-siphon device? Tomorrow I am going to try to simulate this with a garden hose. Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Or does anyone out there have other suggestions as to how my bilge might have filled with seawater? I have read a few postings on bilge pumps on this site, but they did not answer my questions.

[Scott Galloway]

This photo of Augustine's transom shows the Bilge Pump Outflow Port

[ebb]

I think the liquid was sweat.

One perspires on hot days,
but exceeding hull speed at 40 degrees in an Ariel causes sweat.

Sink drain, maybe?:cool:

[ebb]

Extreme angle of heel might be the key, which you can't duplicate with the garden hose. The amount of water is also significant.
Are you leaking thru the deck/hull seam?
How about the dead lights or the opening ports? Water could enter between the cabin and liner, end up on the shelves and down the hull to the bilge.
The scuppers by the cockpit from the deck down to the waterline, any sign of leaking here?
How about the cockpit sole? Fore hatch? Extreme angle may have taken leaking water off at an unusual track.
Leaking around the transom exit of the manual pump hose. ie the fitting?
A newly installed access hatch?
Water on the cockpit seats? Potential for water getting in here.
Hose clamps ok? Like the upper ones?
Water tank ok? Plastic bottle leaking?

I've been looking at so-called scupper drains for 338. They are one way fittings sometimes flapper style, ball in cage, and a soft duckbill style like the valve in a head. If you find the culprit is the pump, one of these exit check valves might work. Do you have a sufficient up-loop in the exit hose?

[Ed Ekers]

Scott, Sounds like a nice ride. Where where you coming home from?

In terms of your water issue, I have experienced the same thing in the past. Our first wet trip was a number of years ago heading north to S.F. We arrived with the floor boards floating after sailing 16 hours straight with 25+ on the nose. We determined the leak was at the bow at the rub rail joint. Sounds like you can rule lazarette locker that out.

Our second experience with water filling the voids was on a trip back to Alameda from Napa. On this day we had reported 40 mph winds and a huge ebb chop in the SF Bay. Since we were cruising I had left the motor in the well. This resulted in water pouring through the stern. With Lisa pushing the manual pump and Ernie using a bucket and pouring it into the cockpit we were able to get a handle on it. After getting all the water out and then moving much of our cruising gear and extra people weight forward we were able to raise the stern enough to decrease the amount of water being shipped. Plus it was an easy way to let Ernie and his wife Nancy take a nap in the v-berth.

My point is if I was you I would take a second look at the lazarette locker. With the amount of water you described it would take one hell of a leak in the pump hose. My only other guess would be that you have no flap or check valve in the pump.......ed

[commanderpete]

I think you need a vented loop in the bilge pump discharge line, positioned above the waterline on any angle of heel.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks to Ed, Commanderpete and ebb for all of the comments and suggestions. I have sailed this boat ninety times since I restored it. I have sailed it under widely different conditions, and yesterday's sail was not unusual. This was not a complete restoration since the boat was basically sound, and previous owners added a number of features that improved the boat. The bilge pump with its PVC pipe was one of those previous-owner-installed features.

Replacing that PVC bilge pump line has been a priority, but not a high priority, in as much as my bilge was always dry as a bone, and my pump worked adequately well. The PVC line just ran through the lazarette locker bulkhead with only a bead of silicon on either side of that bulkhead, and that was a bit odd.

Ed, in answer to your question, yesterday I was just out for a single-handed sail. I finally figured out how to tie the tiller to the jib sheet in a manner that will allow me to go below and play with charts and my GPS while the boat sails itself to weather in a moderate swell. I wanted to test my system under various conditions and various headings. When I reached the halfway point in the time allotted for my sail, I turned around and sailed more or less north to Santa Cruz. I was below a lot yesterday while I headed both south (starboard tack) and north (port tack), so I am pretty sure that the water came in when I was heading downwind, and I was, of necessity, in the cockpit hanging onto the tiller, while the swells pushed my transom around.

For most of the day I was heeling between 30 and 35 degrees. On the return trip I was heeled to 40 degrees and clipping alone at 6.2 knots, but that is speed over ground. 40 degrees is not unusual for me, and this spring it has been the usual angle of heel due to the wind. It is not unusual for me to hit 45 degrees. Last week I was heeling to 45 degrees with a double reef in the main and heavy wet swells, but no water entered the bilge. This is one reason that I believe that the water came in yesterday while I was running dead down wind. The other reason is that I was below for extended periods of time while I was close hauled and heeled over, and water below was not evident. I fail to see how water entering the lazarette can get into the bilge, since at least on my boat the lazarette locker is complete sealed off from the rest of the boat and drains into the outboard well.

Today, I emptied my menagerie of sails and gear from my cockpit lockers. All of the contents of those lockers were dry with the exception of one sail bag that is located on the bottom of the starboard locker, which was wet on the very bottom, consistent with the other wet things in the main salon. The port side was pretty much dry.

Again, the shelves in the V Berth and main salon were absolutely dry as was the anchor locker in the forepeak.

I pressure-tested the bilge pump line by inserting a one inch hose into the bilge pump outlet, and allowed the pressure to build in the line until it more or les back-fired and blew the hose back out of the hole. Don't do this at home kids. It will foul up the flaps in your bilge pump. After doing this three times with the bilge pump handle in various positions, I discovered that I could NOT force water into the bilge through the bilge pump outflow line. I did succeed in jamming the pump (a Guzzler 400) by blowing one of the one-way flaps the wrong way.

I decided to replace the bilge pump line anyway, since this has been a priority, and I have ascertained that other than the flaps in the pump itself, there was no check valve in the line, the PVC Line has always been worrisome, and there was no fitting of any type where the PVC pipe passed through the lazarette bulkhead. Although I could NOT simulate the leak, I decided that there is a possibility that the bilge pump line was siphoning water directly into the bilge. I installed a bilge pump kit consisting of a new diaphragm and two new one-way flaps. I then removed the PVC line, which was a pain because I did not have a hacksaw blade. All I had was the saw blade on my very small multi-tool. I replaced the entire run with new one-inch reinforced bilge pump tubing. I allowed enough extra tubing to permit two raised loops, one in the cockpit locker and one in the lazarette. I haven't decided yet whether to vent one of them or not, since with the rail buried one or the other loop will still be below water on some headings, since they are below deck. I installed a one-way valve in the lazarette locker. I installed the equivalent of a threaded cistern fitting through the lazarette locker bulkhead. This was a gasketed fitting with threaded plastic nuts and gaskets on either side of the bulkhead. I threw on some silicon for good measure.

I tested the new system and it works.

To check for other areas where leaks might have occurred, I flooded the bottom part of the lazarette locker today to see if it leaked into the cockpit lockers, and it didn't. Once you fill it up to the bottom of the hatch that leads to the cockpit it drains into the cockpit anyway. I inspected both sides of that bulkhead. Outside of the aforementioned siliconed PVC line that ran through that bulkhead and one small hole through which a couple of wires pass at the very top of the starboard side of the bulkhead, there are no holes where water can come though. The stuff below that small hole was dry yesterday, so that was not where the leak occurred. The cockpit lockers did not have enough water on them to leak, and the stuff beneath them was dry anyway. I sprayed the entire bulkhead from the lazarette side under pressure, and no water came through with the exception of the one small hole where the two wires pass through the bulkhead.

The boat sat all night last night, and no additional water entered the bilge. Neither the cockpit drains nor the sink appear to be leaking, but it is conceivable that the top of the sink hose might have leaked. I will have to check that when I am underway again.

In 2002, I re-bedded all of the hull deck seams forward of the lazarette locker. I filled the screw holes with epoxy and went back to short screws after filling the joint with 5200 and re-bedding the rub rail with 4200. Frequently I sail with either rail buried, and on the week before, I buried both rails for some time with no leaks, and an absolutely dry bilge. Again, if the hull-deck seam were leaking, the shelves would have been wet, which they were not. The only area with no shelf is the starboard cockpit locker. So it is conceivable that a section for the rub rail that has never before leaked did leak for whatever reason. Again the chainplates in that locker were dry.

Tomorrow I hope to sail again, so we will see what happens.

[Scott Galloway]

The photo below shows the original bilge pump line in the lazarette as it attaches to the through-hull very low in the transom. The section of the line shown in the lazarette is flex tubing. The section of the line in the cockpit locker (not shown) and part of the lazarette locker ( not shown) was schedule 40 PVC pipe.

I now have a Nissan 6 hp four stroke OB motor. The Honda in the photo is no longer operational.

[ebb]

Scott.
Went back to your original post, and by your description, it seems you could have just taken a dollop or two under the companionway hatch, no?

If the hatch was just a slight way forward, the hose test would definitely produce the wetness and spatter you describe. You can probably get water to enter when the hatch is closed all the way.

[Scott Galloway]

Sorry Ebb,

The companionway sliding hatch cover was closed and all was dry below with the exception of the areas near the floor reached by the leak, and or water flowing from the 3/4 filled bilge. It is simply not possible that my bilge filled three quarters full with water coming through the companionway. I was very aware of what was transpiring.

Today I went sailing with crew on a pleasure sail, and we reefed the main after about a half hour out there since my guests were not dressed for, nor interested in a wet sail.

I was able to run some tests, although due to our reefed main were not heeled nearly so far as the day before yesterday. . I produced a leak, and you original inclination seems to have been a good hunch. The problem seems to be related to the cockpit drain on the starboard side.

Things remained mostly dry below today, but after we ran close hauled with the starboard rail down briefly, I found a small amount of water running toward the bilge from the base of the starboard cockpit drain. Now, the valves on these drains are the Groco style rubber plug seacocks mounted to the through-hull, which has a teak backing block. The water seems to be concentrated at the base of this block. The block was totally dry when we left the harbor today, but by the time that I discovered the leak, the block was wet. I found water in the general area of the mounting block and nowhere else. It had run both up the hull a little way, presumably while we were heeled and then down toward the bilge. This was a very small leak that did not add appreciable water to the bilge, but then again we were only sailing with the rail down for a couple of minutes. I could not ascertain whether the leak was coming from the valve, the through hull or from the tubing. I took everything out of the cockpit lockers while we were sailing and checked for leaks coming from the rail or the hull deck seam, but all was dry on the hull and in the vicinity of the hull deck seam the toe rail, and in the cockpit locker with the exception of the immediate location of the through hull and valve. So tomorrow I will have to crawl down there and take a closer, longer look. I assume that when the starboard rail is down, the top of the cockpit locker drainpipe and cockpit drain fitting are below water level. I will attempt to simulate this situation somehow, however I don't want to mess with the valve to do the simulations whle the boat is in the water. The nature of these Groco type rubber plug seacocks is that you loosen a locking handle before operating the seacock. My experience with this particular seacock is that after you use the locking handle, the valve will drip for awhile, even while the valve is closed, so that complicates the simulation. To see a drawing of one of these seacocks, see page 382 and 383 of Nigel Calder's Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual.

Alas, I needed to upgrade my bilge pump and related tubing anyway.

Please find below a photo of the starboard seacock as it looked a couple of years ago, when I took the photo.

[ebb]

Pascoe, one of those guys, made up a chart of causes of sinkings - by far the most, more than 50%, were related to seacocks.

In your case, Scott, maybe the Grocos are ok but the pads aren't. IMCO backup pads made of wood or ply, especially ply, unless phenolic marine grade, will degrade after awhile.

Suppose one could make an arguement for a seacock install that has some give in it - wood backup fairing. BUT 338 will have molded epoxy/glass fairing and true three corner seascocks bedded in polysulphide. Giving the thruhull support thru the hull with a thick pad for more rubber bedding I think is good. 338 will have flush thruhulls therefor building up the hull there is called for.

When I get an assembly ready I may even consider dolphinite bedding compound rather than sulphide. Since thruhulls have to be considered a maintenance item, making the whole install relatively easy to take apart would be the way to go. If it wasn't daunting it wouldn't get forgotten. Something like that.

Anyway, doncha love a mystery???:D

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

Slight drips are indeed an interesting mystery, although an aggravating one. A bilge full of water sloshing through your lockers and up under your settee cushions moves out of the category of mystery into the category of horror show.

And no after some careful examination and testing today, I am now convinced that the seacocks were not to blame. The bilge pump is still not off the hook, but since I installed a new kit in the pump and replaced the line and added a one-way valve in the line I wouldn't be able to replicate the failure.

Yesterday's observed small leak (and perhaps the big leak of last Thursday) became easier to diagnose (at least I hope so) by unloading the starboard cockpit locker and discovering that all of the contents thereof were dry with the exception of my fortress anchor bag. I keep that anchor in its bag close to the aft bulkhead that separates the cockpit locker and main part of the boat from the lazarette locker. I also noted some discoloration of the wooden support board that runs longitudinally along the pegboard separator that is the inboard wall of the cockpit locker. This unfinished wooden board is the support for the upper shelf of the cockpit locker. Only the aft end of that board in proximity to the aforementioned aft bulkhead was discolored. The presence of water at some time in the past was indicated. Close inspection of that bulkhead from the cockpit locker side showed me that there were three places were wires passed though that bulkhead.

One place is the original installation of the wire that feed the stern navigation light. That wire is run over the top of the bulkhead and is encased in fiberglass and resin. It appears that this was part of the original installation. Blasting it with water from the lazarette side indicates that it is watertight.

The second wire is the loran antenna wire. It runs through a piece of PVC pipe, probably a bad choice, but the pipe is epoxied in place and the pipe is filled on the lazarette side with a white caulking compound, and taped. Blasting it with water from the lazarette side indicates that it is watertight.

The third place permits a set of two alternator wires installed by a previous owner or an agent of same to pass through the bulkhead. This installation consisted of drilling two approximately ¼ inch holes though the upper part of the bulkhead, and running the two wires though those holes Actually both wires run more or less through one hole and the other is left open. It does not appear that any attempt was made to caulk or otherwise seal these holes. Blasting these holes with water from the lazarette produced something that looked a lot like a horizontal version of Old Faithful. The most interesting thing was that when the blast was not made straight through the hole, but at an angle, most of the water ran down the cockpit locker side of bulkhead or rained on the immediately proximate area where my Fortress anchor bag is stored and in the vicinity of the darkened shelf support board. Most of that water entered the bilge aft of that flat nearly horizontal panel that covers the section of the bilge aft of the sump, so that it would not tend to run forward across the bilge sump access hatch and through the galley cabinet and out onto the cabin sole. In other words, most of the water would run more or less directly into the bilge, and so a skipper would not notice the intrusion of water unless the skipper looked into the bilge or if one ran with the starboard rail down for a long enough period that the bilge filled to the point at which some of the bilge water ran up the hull into the lockers etc. This is probably what happened to me last Thursday.

The other interesting thing is that some of the water runs forward from those two alternator wire holes in the aforementioned bulkhead and down around the starboard cockpit drain backing block, which is exactly what I saw yesterday while were sailing with the starboard rail down on a port tack.

So, since I no longer have an OB with an alternator, I pulled the wired back through the holes. Tomorrow after the area has dried adequately, I will fill the holes permanently and leave the wire coiled and secure on the cockpit side of the bulkhead in the event that I later decide to use them for an alternator or other purpose. Actually I have been thinking about a solar panel.

Regarding rubber plug seacocks, I will refer you to Nigel Calder's "Boat Owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual. It's a wonderful book chock full of engineering quality drawings of just about every mechanical and electrical system that you will find on a boat and other helpful information to boat owners seeking to repair or improve their boats. Chapter 11 has a discussion of seacocks and lists the various types of seacocks. The rubber plug seacock is a legitimate type of seacock manufactured by Groco and other manufactures. You won't find them in West Marine, and I won't find them at my local boat yard anymore, but they were installed on many boats and are "true" seacocks.

Now as a to the wooden backing block issue, I am sure that there are other materials that would be more durable than wood, but again, rather old wooden vessels are still plying the waters, and you will find wood backing plates on many fiberglass boat through hulls. As long as the fitting is well bedded, I don't see why there would be deterioration of the block over time. Now wooden deck cores are something else again.

A young friend of mine once bought an ancient wooden sloop. Actually I think someone gave it to him. The poor mast-less thing had sat in one slip or another for years and spent a fair amount of time hanging on a hook off the Santa Cruz and Capitola piers. It needed a lot of work. My young friend had high hopes for it. His plan was to earn enough fishing commercially to restore it to sailing condition. Apparently, that plan did not materialize. I noted this morning that the local marine yard was cutting the boat into pieces. I just hate it when that happens.

The interesting thing about this is that that neglected old hulk of a wooden boat was sound after sitting in the water with little maintenance for many years. Some of the mussels on the hull would have been eligible for social security retirement had they no dried out. Since they are sawing the boat into small pieces, it will be very easy to inspect the various parts of the boat to see where if anywhere the wood was failing as the demolition continues. So far the wood looks pretty good. The hull and deck cross-sections look to be very solid and show no signs of rot, with the exception of a few isolated places.

I recently watched the same yard cut a Columbia Challenger into pieces after it went on the beach and cracked its hull. Other than the new hole acquired on the beach, it was flawless. That was one well-made boat. I always worried about the hull deck seam in the Challenger, but it was a well laid up cold joint and after forty years was a solid as new. I could find no dry glass in that hull or deck. All of the glass looked fully wetted out. Ahhh, but I digress.

Please post some photos of your new non-wood backing plates when you have them. I need to replace some head through hulls ay some time in the future, and would profit from your experience with alternative products.

[ebb]

Scott,
You're the Henry Lee of water spatter!!

And the caution is, if you have a motor well,
make sure it is watertight.

The HUGE hatch (another potential problem)
allows good access to said bulkhead and it
would be perspicacious to isolate the ob
lazarette from the rest of the boat with epoxy
and glass and have propriatary glands or
something just as positive to usher any wires or
cables thru the bulkhead.

The cockpit bulkhead on 338 was tabbed in place
quite well but left bare wood exposed to soaking.
That is a good upgrade. Waterproofing the ply.
It will make future holes a piece of cake to follow
thru on as the wood will be dry

OK Capt, you take Augustine off shore, in conditions
that would literally raise the hair on the back on my head.
Not kidding!
What precautions do you take with the side lazarette
lids? Yhere are a couple of holes that would do a
fine job of filling the bilge. And the cabin.
.

[Scott Galloway]

The amazing thing about an Ariel is that it can hold a course on its own with a sheet to tiller arrangement in a moderate swell and in 20 to 25 mph winds with a full main and 90% jib flying. I was sailing that way for about three hours last Thursday, and had plenty to time to leave the tiller to eat lunch, play with my charts and GPS below, and watch the scenery go by. The boat was never over powered, nor with one exception in three hours did we wander off course. Since Augustine wandered to the lee side that time, instead of following her natural inclination to go to weather, I assume that a large swell was responsible for causing us to drift off course.

In answer to your question, my cockpit lockers have a pad eye on the under side of their hatch covers. A length of Dacron line runs forward and through the bulkhead into the cabin, where there is a jam cleat under on the underside of the galley counter on the port side and my chart table on the starboard side (see photo below). I keep the companionway hatch cover shut when underway if there is a possibility of taking on some spray. I have a set of three teak weatherboards that can be slipped into the companionway slot all at once or one at a time as the occasion dictates. I have thus far not had to use them at sea.

I'll tell you one thing: Working with acetone in that cockpit locker is no joy.

I do have one other question on this thread topic, which is supposed to be bilge pumps as siphons. The Association Ariel Manual recommends a bilge pump in the cockpit, and seems to prefer the bridge deck as a location for this pump. My manual pump is inside the cabin mounted to the aft wall of the cabin above the galley shelf (see photo below). I would like to add a second bilge pump. I have looked at various locations in the cockpit. Unless you install one of those flush mounted hand operated bilge pumps, the thing would be in the way. If it wasn't for the necessity of cutting a 3.5 inch hole, I would located a flush mounted pump on the starboard side just forward of the bulkhead that separates the lazarette locker from the rest of the boat. If you do install one of the flush mounted varieties. You have to cut a 3.5 inch hole in one wall of the cockpit. Anyone found a better idea for locating a bilge pump in the cockpit that does not require a 3.5 inch hole?

Other innovative bilge pump ideas will be welcome.

[Scott Galloway]

I have read the posts on bilge pumps on this site and the Ariel Manual on the subject of cockpit-mounted manual bilge pumps.

I have decided to add a second manual bilge pump to my Ariel. I want to add that pump in the cockpit, and I suppose the best place for me will be on one of the sidewalls of the cockpit. It probably makes the most sense to do that reasonably close to the forward part of the cockpit. I have read the Ariel manual, which recommends the bridge deck or bridge deck wall, but that forces me to place the body of the flush-mounted bilge pump and one to one and a half inch tubing in the cabin where it would be in the way and would be unsightly in my opinion. If I understand my boat, there is a double wall there, so the installation would be more complicated than placing a flush mounted pump in a sidewall of the cockpit, which places the body of the pump in the cockpit locker.

I don't relish the idea of chopping a 3.5 inch hole in my boat to accommodate the flush mounted bilge pump.

Now for the questions:

1. Does anyone out there have what you consider to be the ideal, or at least the most pragmatic solution to adding a manual cockpit bilge pump?

2. How have you sealed a flush mounted manual pump to prevent leaks?

3. Does your method actually prevent leaks?

4. If you have a higher volume pump, how many strokes per minute can you handle without fatiguing quickly at that volume?

The choice sees to be the higher volume ~ 20 gallons per minute with a 1.5 inch line, or lower volume ~10 gallons per minute with 1.0 inch line, or forgetting the whole thing and buying the sublimely expensive 30 gallons per minute Edson versatile and portable pump suitable for pumping your bilge, holding tank or washing your anchor or boat down. In the latter case, you would not have to worry about mounting the pump, since it is mounted to a board and is designed to move around the boat.

5. Here is an idea: is it worthy?

The very expensive Edson portable pump model 290017 (see West Marine ecatalog) gave me the idea of buying a much less expensive standard surface mounted 20 GPM bilge pump and mounting it to a board that would slip and clamp into the opening between the cockpit and the lazarette hatch to be used as an emergency bilge pump or wash-down pump, and could also be carried around the boat to be used at other locations. By hooking the pump up with a quick connect/ disconnect fitting to a bilge hose in the lazarette locker, one could have a readily available bilge pump to use in the cockpit when needed without having to chop more holes in the boat, and at the same time one would have a handy pump to use as an anchor wash-down pump on the foredeck. In the bilge pump mode, the outflow pipe could used the OB well as some writers have suggested they are now doing with their fixed mounted bilge pumps, or could have a transom-mounted through hull with a second quick disconnect. I have a one-inch plastic "cistern fitting" designed for a bait tank that has an adapter that reduces to a standard garden hose fitting. This unit is suitable for mounting through the lazarette cockpit bulkhead and connects on the bilge side to one inch bilge tubing. I am already using one of these units on my bilge pump line. That pump is mounted on the aft wall of the cabin above the galley shelf.

6. Also, has anyone installed and used the Plastmo Cockpit Bilge pump? I am not so sure about the strength of the handle. It looks like a good concept otherwise.

[Scott Galloway]

Here is what West Marine has to say about the Edson portable pump.

[Scott Galloway]

Here is what West Marine has to say about the Plastmo cockpit bilge pump:

[Scott Galloway]

Footnote:

While sailing with crew last weekend, it became apparent that all of the above did not solve the problem. Given that had crew, I took most everything out of the starboard cockpit locker while on a port tack and crawled down into the locker. Imagine my surprise to discover that a fitting in which my Loran antenna wire ran through the bulkhead between the lazarette and starboard cockpit locker was spouting water like a fire hose every time we dipped the starboard rail. This particular fitting predated my ownership. I had looked at it some time ago, and assumed that it was caulked with some sort of marine sealant. When I destroyed the thing by removing it along with the antenna wire, I discovered that it was nothing but a piece of schedule 40 PVC pipe glued in place with an unidentifiable somewhat pliable substance that appeared to be glue. The pipe itself was absolutely hollow with no sealant in it or around the wire. The lazarette end was taped first with white rigging tape, which I originally mistook for sealant while peering through the cockpit locker end. The second layer of tape was duct tape, and the third layer was rigging tape. The final layer was electrical tape. The tape was ancient. There was no fitting on the lazarette end to prevent water intrusion and no sealant, but merely the tape. Since I never had leaks until a week or so ago, I never thought to examine it more closely. The PVC pipe entered the lazarette locker behind the portable six-gallon fuel tank. Apparently while replacing the tank after refueling, I must have nudged the pipe in a manner that broke the seal on the tape, and so the next time I dipped the rail, I had flooding both through the aforementioned two small, unsealed holes and through this PVC pipe. A substantial amount of water was coming through the pipe.

My outboard well has been modified to accommodate an older version of the Honda 7.5 four-stroke OB motor. The added sloped extension on the aft end functions as a scoop at hull speed forcing gallons of water up into the lazarette locker and this fills the downwind side of the locker to a level above this PVC pipe, when the excess water spills back into the well. Every time that water surged upwards, this PVC fitting would squirt water into the cockpit locker.

There is now no longer hole there at all. West Systems epoxy and a few pieces of glass cloth made short work of it. So apparently the bilge pump was not at fault, but it's nice to know that the bilge pump line and pump are newly upgraded. I also now have a loop and backflow prevention valve in the lazarette locker. If that valve jams, it would be a simple thing to remove the hose clamp on the uphill side of the valve and pump bilge water into the lazarette locker (or preferably clear the blockage and reattach the hose.

I ran today offshore close hauled for about an hour on each tack today with full sails in about 20+ knots of wind with a moderate swell. At hull speed + I shipped a fair amount of water into the lazarette through the OB well, but no water entered the cockpit locker or other areas of the boat, so it appears that the leaking PVC pipe was the culprit.

Hopefully sealing the hole where that PVC pipe once ran did solve my leak problem, but my research on bilge pumps will probably take me to a second manual pump in the cockpit.

I have also been reading the very interesting posts on this site related to sealing the well, and I am working on a better mousetrap for that little problem which is the root of many other problems in Ariels in general.

[Theis]

One comment about your bilge pump before giving the possible answer to your problem, which I too experienced. The first time I sailed the boat water was up to the berths and we were headed right in to the beach, wondering if we would make it before our craft went to the bottom.

As for the one way valve in the bilge pump, the word on the street is that a one way valve in a bilge pump line is an absolute, unequivical NO-NO. Translated - serious mistake. You must have a vented loop. The one way valve may or may not work when you most need it.

I have never totally solved the problem of water coming in from the engine lazarette as much as I have tried. My situation also, is that the leakage happens when the boat is healed over. Nothing is wet in either of the bench lockers or anywhere else. The water problem was there before I had bilge pumps (my bilge pump had been a Thirsty Mate).

Here is what I have done, with generally good results (Solsken is 1962 version). The bulknead has a joint that corresponds with the floor of the lazarette. I sealed that with every thing, thinking that may have been the cause of the leak (and it may have been one of the sources). I double checked all screw holes into the bulkhead, making sure there was either a screw or it had been sealed. I sealed both sides of the bulkhead, thinking there might be a small leak. Things did improve, and the water stopped coming in from the starboard side, but the port still leaked. Renmember that the plywood used has water paths in the laminations, and water coming in at one point can just follow a lamination joing anc go right out the bottom.

Then, VOILA, I took a garden hose and forced water against the bulkhead top (where it meets the deck - particularly in the area of the scupper). Water poured through, down the back of the bench lazarette and into the bilge (the reason nothing was wet was that the water all stayed at the stern end of the lazarette before going into the bilge at the rudder post).

But I could not see any opening. I took a flashlight and still could not see an opening. Next, came the Dremel tool, and instantly it went through the "seal" between the deck and the bulkhead and I found a sizeable gap between the bulkhead and the deck. When sailing with the boat healed over, water sloshes up against that joint and pours in through unknown pinhead holes in the factory seal. This is an impossible area to get to (both sides of the bulkhear), and I suspect they had the same problem at Pearson.

But, that is where I suggest you look - but you might try the all around the bulkhead as well. In otherwords, don't trust that the bulkhead is indeed waterproof just because it looks like a barrier.

Hope this helps.

[Theis]

What about installing an electric bilge pump in the bilge, and getting some real pumping capacity? That is what I have, and it is great. That way, when the going get tough, you can be working the radio, or the sails, or whatever rather than being thrown around while pumping (Of course a manual pump is also good, but it may not need to be in the cabin)

[ebb]

Theis' commentary on the lazarette bulkhead reminds me of a discovery made about that bulkhead in 338. I couldn't have imagined a more badly fitted piece of work. If I remember, the starboard side looked good with a heavy tab from bulkhead to hull.

But the other side, after a bit grinding revealed a huge gap, at least 2" wide in the turn of the hull, that the tabbing had a difficult time spanning. You could tell something was up after grinding away the spatter paint. It didn't look right, the tabbing, bulging and NOT ATTACHT in one place that allow a wonder bar to be inserted and levered down. Part of the tabbing came loose. The bulging mess was then grinded to the plane of the plywood. It revealed the gap partially stuffed with unsaturated roving cloth. Parts of it still white as the day the farmer jammed it in there!

If the tabbing in the lazarette is not perfect, here, certainly, is a possible leak source. If the lazarette is always wet, it's a certainty.

This reminds me: that when the 'gas can' deck was removed from the ob lazarette in 338, the foam under the what looked like well sealed ply was saturated with water and gas. 'Closed cell' urethane foam is not waterproof

And, if you are wet in the cockpit, here is another possible leak source. The seat scuppers around the side lazarette lids, on 338 are deep triangulat pockets that exit about 6 or 7" above the cockpit sole.
These are 'cold' laminated on to the insides of the cockpit well, which are very thin. One good reason for the design is that the pockets add stiffness to the unit. But by nature or accident could be cracked and leak. Up at the seat along the back under the hinge there is a U-shape scupper that connects the side pockets. On 338 we found that gelcoat was used to glue or caulk this joint. In a couple places in was wide open. Next time you open the lid take a look at the seam.

While not a lot of water would enter these places, it could add up. The cockpit under the stress of sailing could open up joints that appear solid. It's possibe also that water could collect in a corner and be released by heeling the boat when sailing. A mirror and a flashlight.

[Theis]

I hadn't realized the seat scuppers on the Ariel had been a problem. I know they were a problem on the Triton, but I thought that the problem was that when the boat was heeled over more than a certain amount, water splashing over the coaming on to the bench, leaked between the lazarette cover and the bench. Becaus, when the boat is healing, the drain outlet was higher or near the height of the seat scuppers on the leward side, It would fail to drain into the cockpit but instead overflow the and drain into the bilge. That is how, we figured, we almost lost our Triton in "The Race that No One Finished", which I understand is to be published in the Ariel Newsletter this fall.

What I had never looked into, was a "construction flaw". I don't have that problem with my Ariel - or so I believe - but I will look into it - rest assured!

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

The electric bildge pump makes me think that perhaps you have an inboard engine in your Ariel I have a single battery that gets charged at the dock. My Nissan 6 hp motor lacks an alternator/reciifier, or whatever.I will probably add an electric bilge pump in time also, but that would be for use in a very short-term emergency in the event of a sizeable leak. It would not take long for a Rule 2000 or 3700 to drain my battery. I have a manual bilge pump in the cabin already. I want to install an additional manual pump in the cockpit.

Although it is sobering to learn that a one inch hole in the hull two feet beneath the waterline will put more water into the boat than any manual pump made can remove, I can pump a half filled bilge in an Ariel completely dry in two minutes. I had to do that recently, so I decided to time myself. It took two minutes. That is using a Guzzler pump with about a 10-gallon per minute advertised capacity and a one-inch line.

I have also been considering a gas powered pump, or perhaps a small gasoline powered generator that can power an electric pump. Honda makes both. The generator is a bit pricey, but small enough to be suitable for an Ariel. The pump that I like unfortunately cannot be used with saltwater. So I am still looking.

I am also considering solar panels, but solar panels are not going to supply enough juice for a mega leak emergency.

Anyway, the presenting problem in this thread is: Where did you install a flush mounted manual bilge pump in your cockpit if not on the bridge deck, and would you do it again. Does the thing leak?

[Scott Galloway]

Actually, I inspected and water tested all of the hull-to-bulkhead and deck-to-bulkhead areas in my lazarette locker. They are tight and well sealed. The locker had been stripped and glass had been added to extend the well before I bought the boat. It was left unpainted. I painted the locker. What took me some time to figure out was that PVC tube through which the loran antenna ran was not sealed, as it appeared to be. The white stuff that I mistook for caulking compound was actually only rigging tape. That unsealed PVC pipe was responsible for my leak. Now that it has been removed, and the hole in the bulkhead has been filled with epoxy, it no longer leaks.

I took the boat offshore again today, and ran with one rail or the other down for hours. There were absolutely no leaks, despite the lazarette locker sloshing full of seawater.

Now as to the bilge pump line. I did add two loops: one in the cockpit locker, which I do not plan to vent, and one in the lazarette locker, which I may vent. Now a word on raised loops: When an Ariel is sailing with the rail down up is not the same as up when the boat is uporight. It is something else. A loop toward the centerline of the boat is actually above the water line when the boat is heeled to 45 degrees, whereas a verticle loop adjacent to the hull is under water. So my loop in the port cockpit locker is horizontal and drains well when the boat is sitting on the level, but it is "up" when the boat is heeled on a port tack. Unfortunately it is "down" when the boat is one a starboard tack. My lazarette locker loop has both horizontal and vertical elements. So it is up when the boat is on the level, and in some regard it is up at any point of sail I guess. That's the loop that I would vent, but the only logical place to vent it would be on the vertical element…Ooops that vertical element could be below sea level on a 45 degree. Then how about the horizontal loop? Oops, again, that would be down on a starboard tack. Am I just not getting it?

Theis, I am also curious as to why you recommend against one-way valves in bilge pump lines. The one-way valve that I used in my new line is identical to the valves in my manual bilge pump. The only difference is that it is in the lazarette locker, where I could quickly disconnect the hose clamps if it became blocked for some reason, and just allow the pump to pump into the lazarette locker. Most of the power boaters on my street to whom I have spoken believe in one way valves.

Now the loop idea makes a lot of sense, but I did test the one-way valves in my bilge pump by pressuring the line from the transom with a garden hose. I blew one of the valves backwards without damaging it permanently, but the system would not permit water to get past the bilge pump, because the second valve held, and the hose that I was using was forcefully ejected from the transom with my rather forceful hand attached. The addition of one more one way valve in my system just ads that much more assurance that the line will not accept seawater if the transom is down. There would have to be enough force coming up that line the wrong way to blow three valves in series. The additional valve in combination with a vented loop in the lazarette aft of the valve makes a lot of sense to me, and that is how I have set mine up. I just have to figure out how and where to vent that loop.

So in summary, if one-way valves in bilge pump lines are a bad idea, why do Bilge pump manufacturers install one-way valves in diaphragm style manual pumps? This is a serious question, because some day our lives might depend on whether we do or do not have one of these valves in your bilge pump lines. Street knowledge is usually a good thing to listen to, but I like to understand the logic, and frankly I don't in this case. I do understand that an object could block a valve, but again this valve is identical to those in my bilge pump.

And finally, those deck scuppers that are glassed into the hull in the cockpit lockers must have leaked at one point in my boat, because someone slathered sections of them with some black stuff, which I assume is probably epoxy of some sort. They are not leaking now.

[Theis]

I have an outboard, but it does have a generator - max six amps.

The Rule pump is rated 20 amps ( I don't think it draws that much). With an 80 ampere hour battery, that means the pump could run for four hours, or long enough to drain Lake Mead, if my calculations and understanding of ampere hours is correct. Each spring I fill up the bilge above the floor to clean out the beer from broken cans the previous summer. The pump (with automatic shut off) takes perhaps a minute - at the outside - although I have never timed it (1 1/2" hosing leading ouside through the bottom in the motor well/lazarette.)

My exterior Whale Gusher is flush mounted on the port side of the cockpit bench, aft of the bench cover, on the vertical face, just in front of the back end of the cockpit (about where the tiller post is). It is mounted high on the vertical lazarette wall. I keep the handle just inside the motor lazarette opening panel. The retainer string for the handle is long enough so I can take it out of the brackets in the motor well and insert it into the pump. Hope this all makes sense.

[Theis]

Pleased you solved the leaking problem. That is a real pain. I too had the problem with leaking holes through the bulkhead.

As to the check valves, first I am relying on those that appear to know, and they are as emphatic as I was.

But, based on my eperience with one way valves, they can fail. In non boating experiences, I have had experience with the flapper breaking, and it could get stuck in the line. I have had experience with them not sealing. I have had an experience with them not opening fully and restricting the flow.

Now, as for boating experiences, a bilge pump can pick up garbage (even with a strainer) This is particularly true when the cabin is awash and paper, food, whatever are floating around as a slurry.

If any of that stuff (even a relatively small particle - such as a piece of paper) gets caught in the check valve, good bye check valve.

Perhaps the best reason is that a vent does not have any of those drawbacks.

As to the vented loop, what i did to avoid the problem with the vent being under water when the boat is heeled, is to put the vent as close as possible to the center of the boat. My vent for the electric pump ( have separate lines for each pump) is mounted in the motor well. It is nothing more than a small hole in the highest part of the line (any outflow just goes into the motor well). You can further add protection by having the pump line cross over so it goes from the one side to the vent located on the other side.

The manual pump does have a check valve as a necessary part of the pumping action. It is not an additional element. My recollection is that the Whale manual cautions you about using that check valve as an anti-siphon device - but I may be wrong. My Whale manual pump also goes into the motor well and does not have a vented loop (but it does have a loop) because the outlet is above the cockpit floor draining into the motor well. The loop passes high through the bulkhead through a hole just below the bench.

Whale also provides extra parts in case any of those valves/flappers/whatever fails - so you do know they fail.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit, however.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit, however.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Your concept of placing a vented loop near the centerline of the boat seems like a good idea in either a manual or electric pump. I see no reason why it would not be possible to have both a vented loop and a flapper valve in the lazarette locker, where they would be accessible. It would be a simple matter then to observe just how these devices function under different sea conditions, and to quickly remedy any blockage that might occur in the valve. I would not be enthusiastic about a vented loop in any compartment other than the self-draining lazarette locker.

Perhaps putting a flapper valve in an electric pump line is a different thing than putting one in a manual pump line, but printed material that came with my new Whale Urchin pump has no warnings against flapper valves in the line. The Whale pump and the Guzzler pump that I already have in my boat both have two flapper valves installed by the factory within the bodies of the pumps. The flapper valves that I purchased for my bilge pump lines were manufactured for that specific purpose by a bilge pump manufacturer.

I mentioned earlier that I was able to get one of the two flapper valves in my Guzzler pump to fail by blowing it backwards. I did that by shoving a garden hose on full force into the transom outlet and holding it there. The other valve held however. The valve that failed was not damaged. I was in the process of installing a new diaphragm and valves, so I replaced them anyway. I am keeping the old valves as emergency spares.

[Theis]

Scott: You're more into it than I am so I am - and that means more up to date. I am working from memory and experience. Keep in mind that Saint Murphy is the patron saint of sailors. When you are in trouble - there is likely so much going on that you don't have the hands or stamina to effect repairs. And when fixing a pump hose, the pump can't be working, and worse, it is possible that water is coming in through the hose being repaired.

My vents are in the motor lazarette.

One other thought about the electric bilge pump. When, as we have both experienced, there is water above the bilge boards, it is important to get that water out of there ASAP a) to see what might be leaking, b) to make sure the leak is not catastrophic and c) to free your hands so you can fix the leak or do what otherwise has to be done, including manning the second pump. Thus, the battery capacity is irrelevant for the purpose of a "catastrophe" pump. The lower the boat gets in the water the more water it may be shipping.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

There is great wisdom in your words. A high volume electric pump would be a wonderful addition to any boat with electrical power regardless of battery capacity.

I think that this thing about the advisability of one-way (flapper) valves in manual bilge pump systems deserves some commentary from the manufacturers and other persons with technical knowledge in the matter. The pump manufacturers also build the valves, and presumably they do so for some reasonably valid purpose. Boat plumbing professionals should also be consulted.

Although it may be true that about could be lost due to a blocked flapper valve, the lack of working one-way valves could result in a siphoning problem in any system where the exit thru hull is below the water line, as ours might be on some point of sail.

Although it might be unlikely that both of the flapper valves that are integral to a manual pump might fail simultaneously, a small amount of bilge trash sucked into the line could do that very thing, I suppose. A third flapper installed in he lazarette locker would provide some further protection in that case.

As you note, a third valve in the lazarette would also increase the risk of complete blockage of the system. So we are into arena of conjecture and opinion on the advisability of adding a one-way flapper valve in a bilge pump line when it comes to manual pumps.

Now, a flapper valve in an automatic electric pump system might be a completely different matter, because of the possibility of the valve becoming blocked while the boat is unattended. Those folks with inboard engines would need to seriously consider the alternatives and consequences of those alternatives.

I guess that the problem is that with limited resources, the lack of space for redundant systems, and the inevitable setting of priorities for maintaining a reasonably safe boat, we all must make compromises. Surely, the only safe alternative is never to go to sea. I recall thinking about the alternatives if I were to break a leg in the backcountry during my ski patrol days, and it all came down to that two way radio. A experienced sailor I once knew had a simple answer to questions about whether this or that boat was seaworthy. His answer was, "If you have a good radio."

Fortunately, we have a basically seaworthy boat in our Ariels, but the failure of a thru hull, or other piece of plumbing on any boat at sea would change your priorities quickly. If you are far enough off shore at the time, you would be well served by two electric bilge pumps installed as per Don Casey's recommendations, with plenty of juice to support them, and a couple of well placed manual pumps just in case.

[Theis]

For whatever it is worth, I have two separate and independent bilge pump systems. One with the largest Rule pump available ($99.00 in the late 90s.) Initially I installed a check valve, but subsequently removed it, and simply put a hole in the top of the tubing just under the lazarette cover at the top of the loop.

Then separately I install the Whale with the outlet in the lazarette, well above water level. The output goes into the well and drains from the well - no check valve, and no vent - although there is a loop.

I haven't come across a better system - and it is not because the system was the result of my conclusions. On the other hand, although I do still take on water, I have never had a near occasion to visit my Maker since these were installed.

You mentioned space. There is plenty of space. The 1 1/2" hoses pass in the bilge under the floor under the cockpit and up opening adjacent to the rudder post, then up into the bench lazarettes, one on either side. The starboard one for the Rule pump goes through the bulkhead at the top just under the deck. The Whaler one goes to the Whaler mounted at on the side of the bench lazarette at the aft end of the cockput, as high up as I could get it. That output goes through the bulkhead and the output is pointed down. but yes, it does not go through the bottom but just into the well - no siphoning is possible *-unless the boat is in really serious shape with the decks awash. Then I can rely on the check valve in the Whale.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thank you for all of your thoughts on this topic. I like the idea of locating the manual pump in the aft end of the cockpit, both because of the possibility of running the line up from the bilge next to the tiller post into the cockpit locker and because that makes the pump accessible to me where I usually sit when single handing if I need to close to the tiller, as in sailing on a broad reach or downwind. So it would seem like a good place to be able to pump and steer. Also your recommedations on the electric pump are helpful.

I do have three remaining questions for you before I start the installation fo rmy Whale manual pump, if you would be so kind:

1. You refer to one and a half inch bilge pump lines. What sort of fitting did you use to get a watertight seal as the one and a half inch line goes through the lazarette bulkhead? I have a fitting for a one-inch line, but can't find one for a one and a half inch line.

2. My Whale urchin installation instructions are brief. Did you cut a three-inch hole in the cockpit wall for your pump? How did you seal the pump, and does it leak?

3. My pump has mounting holes on the side that will face the cockpit wall and on the side that will be the bottom. Did you just hang your pump from the cockpit wall, or did you also provide a little shelf for it to sit upon for added security and to protect it from shifting things in the cockpit. I assume that the aft cockpit lid scupper provides a fair amount of protection in that location anyway.

By the way, when I referred to space, I was referring to space in the lazarette locker, primarily because I store my OB Motor there horizontally in beteeen sails. I lift it with a Garhauer lifting davit, flush it with fresh water, and then store it horizontally. At present its head lies snugly up against the thru hull for the existing bilge pump on the port side, and its lower end just slides in next to the six-gallon plastic gas can on the starboard side. If I do want to run another line to a new thru hull through the transom rather than into the well, it will get a bit crowded in there with the motor in storage mode.

[Theis]

Answers to the questions first:

1. I drilled a 1 1/2" hole near the top of the lazarette bulkhead. My recollection is that I sealed the hole with a sulfite sealing compound. I would today probably use 4200. So, there was no fitting used. The flexible hose for the electric pump just continued vertically downward from the top of the bulkhead to the bottom fitting located above the water just to starboard of the aft end of the motor well (so I didn't have the bad visuals of a large fitting sticking out the transom). In the case of the Whale, it too is a continuous flexible hose going through a 1 1/2" hole with sulfite or something sealing it in. The hose bends and points downward.

2. Yes I did cut a hole in the side of the bench (cutting the glass always hurts - what happens if?). The Whale has a plastic plate as a cover with a rubber-like gasket. I don't recall using any sealer and have had no problems with leakage. I do recall that I had the same question you raised and perhaps had to purchase separately the front plate and gasket for a vertical mount. The plate is very nice, with a flap that covers the whole thing when not in use, and flips up exposing the pump handle connector (The opening is still sealed, however).

3. The pump is hung from the cockpit wall and is very rigid. There is no shelf. Keep in mind that the mounting is aft of the cockpit scupper, and just under the horizontal bench, so there is lot to hold the vertical wall rigid. All screws are through the vertical wall. The 4 degree scupper drain on the afte end and inside the opening offers protection for the pump body.

Space: The flexible hoses after they pass through the lazarette bulkhead are cable clamped to the bulkhead so they don't take lazarette space. The electric pump hose goes vertically down into the well, then bends horizontally to where it bends to meet the previously mentioned through hull. All hosing is under the motor well platform.

One last thing. I mentioned using flexible marine quality (not Ace Hardware) coil type hose rather than the more rigid Shield's hose - that really should be used. I could not figure out a way to do with this with the more rigid hose. I have had no problem with flexible stuff, but recognize that the hose walls are not as heavy. Since the hosing is not exposed to sunlight, I con't imagine having a problem but conceivably there is a weakness there. That is one reason why I have two independent pump exit lines - in case one starts leaking.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Theis. That about wraps it up. You answered all of my questions. Now I guess it's me, the hole saw, and a lot of cockpit locker crawling.

I still need to find a strainer for the bilge end of the new line, and then the rest is all just work. I couldn't bring myself to do that today, so I went sailing instead. It was beautiful out there. A nice steady 10 knots unitl the fog started rolling in when the wind kicked up to about fifteen. I just headed south in one long starboard tack, and then west for a while. Too bad the sun had to do that setting thing. I had to come home.

[Theis]

Whale makes a couple varieties of strainer. I have the one that lies in the bottom bakd of the bilge - the deepest part - and the hose outlet is in line with the input (not perpendicular) to the part resting on the bottom. The electric centrifugal pump, of course, has a built in strainer.

And yes we too had beautiful sailing 10 knot of sNE winds, full sun. Wonderful day for the Mackinac and Hook races - but unfortunately they will be tacking the whole way, and it is cold at night.

But I did note that the outlet for my Whale pump is approximately the level of the flat deck in the motor lazarette - so the output water does not spary everything.

[c_amos]

I have purchased the Plastimo 925 as a back up for the electric pump in my bilge. I intend to mount it in the cockpit, probably in the starboard side up forward. As to the concerns about the handle on this pump, the blue plastic tip in the picture is just a cover for the stainless handle that extends through the body. The unit is pretty stout.

I know the bridge deck is the recommended location, but my compass is there, and I prefer it on centerline for visibility (and because that is where a compass belongs). :)



Do any that have experience with cockpit mounted pumps have thoughts on the merits of placement forward or aft? I am thinking forward would be easier to use, but more likely to hit the back of the legs where as aft might be handily out of the way.....


..... ....both in daily use, and when needed. :rolleyes:

[frank durant]

I also installed the exact pump you have in the cockpit . I sat there before I installed it to see where it seemed to make most sence. I ended up putting it on the starboard side , forward. This location allows me to steer and pump at the same time....steer with the left , pump with the right.I installed it fairly close to the bridge deck and it isn't too obtrusive.( big word for a dumb canuck eh !! did I spell it right ? ) They are a nice , good looking pump. PS tape around the erea before you go to cut it out so as not to mark the paint or gelcoat with the saw base

[c_amos]

Great, thanks Frank. Thats what I was leaning towards.

You don't happen to have any pictures do you>?

How high from the bottom of the cockpit did you make the hole?

[frank durant]

Sorry... thats one picture i didn't take and I won't be back to the boat until Oct. I kept it as high as possible with the top of the handle (when in the closed position) slightly below the top of the seat so your legs don't rub over it.When the handle is 'up' your knuckles don't hit there either . I sealed it around the edges with 4200. Nice to see you think the same way.

[ebb]

Deserves mention here. It is the pump used in the Lavac head system. Jim Baldwin on his website has a page on his install of the Lavac in his Triton. No where does he even whimper about the (one assumes) regular use of this pump. Very in ter esting.

The Mark V Henderson Pump is now associated with Whale. Usually means the price goes UP. It must be available other places than Defender, who probably have a good price on it. Around a hundred.

Made of glass reinforced polypropylene and Delrin, weighs about 3 #s and is in the 16 gpm range. While no good for when your seacock breaks loose, it is my choice for the stand by manual bilge pump because it has a rep for dependability, won't clog easily, has a number of mounting options and outlet positions. Can also get a thru-deck kit for it. Pretty certain I want to mount it under the seat, aft in the cockpit, so that the handle can be operated in a vertical 'rocker' mode. Could be put on the bridge-deck part of the seat, where it could be operated from the c'way. :cool:

[Stephan]

Hi Guys,

I thought I'd maybe find something in the maintenance manual about the bilge pump, but there's no mention of it. My question is - how do you get in there?! In my Commander, the access is seriously constricted. To craw into there from the bunks seems impossible, and I might not be able to get out anymore. And to go though the cockpit lockers seems equally impossible. The PO mentioned that he got the yard to do it for him, using a 'small guy', but that guy has to be a dwarf!

[Bill]

. . .but that guy has to be a dwarf!

Small children are an option. :D

[Stephan]

Yeah, that would be nice. Can't find a child here to do that for me, though.
So, seriously, how do you guys get to the pump? Or is access in the Ariel so much easier? Or do you let the boat yard do it for you? They charge $200 for that, and that doesn't include the material!

[ebb]

Can you use a diaphragm pump?
See Pascoe at
www.docksidereports.com/bilge_water_blues.htm
I believe the idea is merely to put a hose end in there and mount the pump elsewhere and no float switch which leaves water in the bilge.

[commanderpete]

These boats didn't come equipped with a bilge pump, so I'm not sure where yours is located.

If your pump is old, cheap and broken, I'd probably disconnect it and buy a new one mounted more conveniently.


On my boat, I screwed the pump and float switch onto a piece of flexible plastic that sort of wedges into the bottom of the bilge. This way I can pull it out if needed.

Where does the hose exit?

[mbd]

So, seriously, how do you guys get to the pump?
The first improvement done to my Ariel... http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2411&stc=1

Now I need to add some aft cockpit drains and waterproof the hatch a bit better...

[c_amos]

In the Ariel, you simply lift out the steps, and raise the access panels over the bilge. I thought the Commander had these (removable steps and bilge access covers) also?

[Stephan]

Hmm, maybe I'm silly and blind. I didn't notice that there might be access panels behind the steps. I sort of crawled though the foot end of the port side bunk and tried to peek into the bilge, but found that I just can't get down there.
I didn't consider that the Commander didn't have a pump originally, but of course you guys are right. The idea of the plastic board sounds great. The PO simply recommended to replace the pump, but didn't say it was actually broken. So maybe I'll leave the old one in until it fails and get a new one ready in the meantime...
The diaphragm pump idea sounds good too, Ebb

[Mike Goodwin]

I had a manual pump in the cockpit of #45 . Whale Gusher mounted in the locker with the handle in the cockpit .Always worked for me.

[Stephan]

Well guys,

I'm glad I asked, because now I realize I don't really need to have the electric pump. And the manual one even affords me a little workout on trips when nothing else is going on! Thanks Mike for bringing the option of a manual pump up - I'll go for that one!

[c_amos]

Peter and Scott,

This thread was on my mind last when I noticed a full bilge in the midst of a storm on the Chesapeake bringing Ariel Spirit home to it's new owner. I was running from a ~ 40+ and noticed the floorboards were floating. :eek:

I remembered something about the bilge pump acting as a siphon. Now, I had looked at the bilge pump installation Keith had made (first-rate job, with a vented loop before the through-hull, which was installed in the lazarette.

After using the manual pump he had installed in the port cockpit locker (guzzler 400) to empty the bilge, I noticed a stream of water running forward from under the sink on the starboard side.

I removed the steps and saw the water was streaming in from somewhere well aft (not the cockpit drains, rudder shaft, or anything I could see with the flash light).

The lazarette was filled with water, which was coming in around the outboard. Ariel Spirit had come with an outboard plug, but there was no way I could lift the 9.9 electric start motor out of the well with the boat pitching about in the storm.

I had already taken down the reefed main, and now rolled the jib in till it was barely flying at all (just enough to keep steerage). The lazarette emptied of most of it's water and the leak subsided.

Later that evening, I was able to inspect the bulkhead in the lazarette and found it appeared to be in great shape. It had been reinforced with epoxy, and looked to have been repaired in a manner consistent with the rest of Keith's work (very well done).

Ariel Sprit’s lazarette only has a floor on one side, not all the way across like Faith. The holes for wires and the like were all pretty high up on the bulkhead so I doubt the water was coming in there.

I have only been able to duplicate the leak by running the outboard too fast (the 9.9 really has too much thrust for and Ariel IMHO.) I can make water come in by trying to push her past hull speed with the motor. I will have Brittany do the 'hose test' to see if we can track down the source of the leak.

[Theis]

Sounds like you had one of a day.

The two places to look:

1. There is a one by something beam that forms the bottom of the motor well running perpendicular to the hull line. The plywood bulkead is attached to the forward edge of the beam. The assembly has a layer of fiberlass over it in the motorwell. However, if the water gets between the panels and the beam at the bottom, it can bypass the fiberblass barrier. As I recall, I think I drilled some holes and filled the gap between the two (going down to the hull) with resin. That seam not seems to be secure (how about that for a pun?)

The second was at the top of the bulkhead panel in the corner ( in my case on the port side). I found it not with a flashlight, but with a hose pressed up against where the deck and the bulkhead meet. That was really obtuse and hard to fix, requiring some routing out of the glass to get to the pin hole. I now almost have it, but this past weekend noticed a bit of water trickling in. The answer will largely lie in whether the water comes in with just the motor running (the boat is relatively level but the engine well flooded - in which case the leak is from below - or when the boat is healed, regardless of whether the boat is under power (in which case the problem is at the deck seam.

Good luck but fix it. The fix makes a more relaxed sail for you and your friends.

[Scott Galloway]

Dear C Amos,

I came screaming back home from sea in on broad reach one windy afternoon, I had last been below to consult my chart plotter and all was dry below. I had been on deck for only about a half hour, when I went below to find my shoes floating around in the water that was sloshing around the cabin sole. I later replaced my bilge pump hose, installed an anti-siphon loop and plug etc. etc., but this phenomena occured once again to a lesser extent.

With one of my trusty nephews manning the tiller, I crawled down in the seat locker to discover that on a broad reach the considerable water that enters the lazarette through the OB well on a broad reach was sloshing high enough to send about a cup of water squirting through the electrical wire holes in the lazarette bulkhead at each slosh. I was lying below in the cockpit locker watching Old Faithful erupt every time the water in the lazarette locker sloshed. This story is further described in my earlier post on this thread.

You stated,

"Ariel Sprit’s lazarette only has a floor on one side, not all the way across like Faith. The holes for wires and the like were all pretty high up on the bulkhead so I doubt the water was coming in there."

The wire holes through the lazarette bulkhead on "Augustine" were very high up on th ebulkhead also, but that did not prohibit the filling of my bilge in an alarmingly short time. The opening had been taped, but all of that water was squeezing through nonetheless. I removed the ancient Loran antenna wire on the starboard side, and repaired the bulkhead with epoxy. I used a water tight through-bulkhead fitting on the port side navigation light wires. That stopped the leak.

[c_amos]

Thank you both for the replies.


The wire holes through the lazarette bulkhead on "Augustine" were very high up on th ebulkhead also, but that did not prohibit the filling of my bilge in an alarmingly short time. The opening had been taped, but all of that water was squeezing through nonetheless. I removed the ancient Loran antenna wire on the starboard side, and repaired the bulkhead with epoxy. I used a water tight through-bulkhead fitting on the port side navigation light wires. That stopped the leak.
I got it. I understand that the lazarette bulkhead must be pretty much water tight all the way up to, and including the joint to the deck.

I will talk to Ariel Spirit's new Captain, and revisit the lazarrette aboard 'Faith' also.

Thanks for your help. :D

[eric (deceased)]

the water may also have come from the rudder post shaft.especially when porpoising up and down in any kind of sea way.I had that happen on many boats----especially while motoring.it has also come to mind that it may be a bad idea to store any outboard horizonally on its side---probably best to keep uprite at all times----as the rolling action of any boat may tend to allow any remaining seawater from a lower unit to find its way somewhere into the power head----rendering it useless when needed most.also all the inspection you can do at the hull/deck seem may result in not finding any leaks.however these boats are in fact flexible---after being under way for any length of time---be it a day or 40 days---these hulls will flex over time---resulting in a hull/deck deficit not seen before.

[c_amos]

THis is from a post I made on the Sailfar.net site earlier this year. My system has evolved as I installed it, the first part (above the line) was from June.

Bilge pumps
After a good storm on the Chesapeake earlier this year, I was reminded of the value of a good bilge pumping system.

Of course we know there is no better bilge pump then 'a scared Sailor with a bucket', but I am not a huge fan of that system since it is tough to sail and bail at the same time.

The boat I was on had a small (500 GPH) electric pump in the bilge, and a manual pump mounted where it could be operated from the cockpit. The leak was not a big one, but when I discovered it the floor boards were floating, so there was a fair amount of water to get rid of.

Issue 1). Electronic switches.
The electric pump’s automatic switch was one of the fancy ‘solid state’ ones. It of course failed. It was the second failure of one of these ‘foolproof’ solid state switches I have personally delt with. The first was on an Alberg 30 I have been keeping an eye on. For my boat there will be nothing but good old mercury float switches.

Issue 2). Redundant redundancy.
The smallish electronic bilge pump was not able to remove the water fast enough for my liking. I have a similar sized pump on my boat, and it works fine for normal underway splashes that wind up in the bilge, but it was out of it’s league. Even if it were larger, the manual switch had taken it out of the running. It also eventually clogged while clearing the bilge (you just have to turn it off, and the backflow of water mostly clears it). The manual bilge pump, a Bosworth Guzzler, (400 I think) had nearly cleared the bilge when the flapper valve either failed or was jammed with debris.

The ‘thirsty mate’ slide type pump then had to be used to finish clearing the bilge.The Guzzler is a good pump, but like anything else it can (and will) fail when you need it. I was glad that the thirsty mate pump worked, since it would be hard to get a bucket into the narrow bilge access.

The plan for my boat was to be set up like this one had been. I have now decided add another pump (triple redundancy, quadruple if you count the thirsty mate pump). I will keep my < 500 GPH pump at the lowest point of my bilge. I will also add a >1000 GPH pump at a higher place in the bilge to take over if the first pump becomes clogged, overwhelmed or fails. I have already purchased a ‘plastimo 925’ manual pump that I will mount in the cockpit.

If you have an inboard, you might look at using the cooling pump as an extra means of removing water. Consider this carefully though, as running your motor dry, or sucking debris into the cooling system might complicate your situation.

Issue 3). Bilge hygiene.
Both of the pump failures I experienced were the result of trash in the bilge. I hose my bilge out regularly on ‘Faith’ but it is easier to keep clean since it is well glassed and accessible.

Issue 4). Awareness.
Of course this would not have been as pressing a problem if I had known earlier that the bilge was filling. This boat had a high bilge water alarm, but it failed. I plan to wire an extra float switch to the ‘test’ button of a smoke detector, to notify me if the water rises. The smoke alarm will still function, so it will do double duty. It should also be loud enough that if it went on while the boat was at the dock and I was not present, someone might hear it and know something was wrong.

It would also work to keep the bilge access open if you are in bad wx, but that might present a hazard to crew going below.


I know this is a long post, but floating floor boards are enough to ruin your whole day. My First mate did great through the storm, the waves and wind did not seem to phase her, even the lightning did not bother her all that much. Looking below and seeing all that water was a bit much, and I will admit it is something I would rather not repeat myself. Maybe this will remind someone to re-visit your dewatering system.

__________________________________________________ ________________

Since starting this thread, I ended up going with a little different set up.


First is an Atwood Sahara 750 GPH pump. It is mounted at the lowest point of the bilge with an internal float switch. It handles the normal splashes that come into the bilge. It draws 2.8a running under load, and with the >3' head pumps an honest 450 GPH. (it replaced my 490 gph pump).
http://images.shipstore.com/ss/images/att/att45057.jpg

Second, I looked at a bunch of pumps for a larger capacity back up... Ended up with a Rule 'Gold' 2000 GPH pump. (http://www.rule-industries.com/prodInfoApp/itt_jsp/DisplayItemDetail.jsp?itemId=09&companyId=RULE&catalogId=Marine&categoryId=BILGE&typeId=RNABP) It was pricey, but I liked the way it was built. It is mounted just aft of the Atwood, and slightly higher. It is also pumping a head of >3' so I get something like 1500 GPH out of it.

http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/productImages/large/09_l.jpg

These two pumps running together should go for something like 10 hours on my current battery. I would more realistically expect something less then that but plan to double the capacity of the battery bank next spring.

Then there is the Plastimo 925 manual pump (http://www.plastimousa.com/pumps.htm) that I will mount in the cockpit. It is rated at 60 GPH, but I guess that has more to do with how fast I pump it. It wants a 1" hose, which I am having some trouble finding in the crush resistant hose…. but I will work out something.
http://www.plastimousa.com/images/pumps_39539.jpg
Slightly different model, looks the same though

Then there are two of the Thirsty mate pumps (http://www.beckson.com/tmpumps.html) aboard. (one of the 18" and one of the 36")
http://www.beckson.com/images/label.gif

They don’t take up much space, and are easy to grab and run to go help someone else out.

Then (for that whole scared Sailor thing) there is always my ‘Bacon & associates’ 7l Rubber bucket. (http://baconsails.com/ships_store/product_info.php?cPath=438&products_id=24374) (I love this thing, has a great handle, and slightly flexes….. wonderful bucket!http://baconsails.com/ships_store/images/bucket.jpg

[ebb]

Craig,
sometimes wonder if I should chime in as I don't want to appear as a know-it-all or a constant loud-mouth. So here goes just to push it along summore. These are taken from my notes as I do not have my bilge pump system installed. I apologize for any repititions!

Electrics: Good connections. Use Ancor adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors. Have another piece of shrink wrap on the wire and after the above has cooled shrink that one over it all.
Best wire. Use ONLY insulated duplex tinned multi-strand wire that is sized for voltage drop based on how long the run is (remember, it's TWICE as long) and the pump amp draw.
Set the system up for auto with manual overide. Wire bilge pumps directly to battery so that when you hit the battery selector switch when leaving the boat no matter what it says on the switch the boat is still protected.
Include a hidden total kill switch so pumps won't cycle when the boat is out of the water.
Constant cycling can be a battery drain fiasco. Bats have to be hooked up to a charger and/or solar panel. This is addressed on the whole system agenda. Trickle-charger?
Don't over-stress the pumps. Use recommended size hose. Keep the head as short as is safe. Reduce length of hose to the loop. Off the shelf loop vents can clog and cause siphoning. Check valves restrict pumping capacity and are frowned on by nearly everybody including insurors.
Make sure exit is as high above the waterline as possible and is protected with a seacock.
Use Trident 147/148 smooth ID wall hose, NOT corrugated hose from the marine store.
Use 100% 316 hose clamps. Make sure all parts of the clamp is s.s. The best clamps have a smooth/solid band that is not sliced. Sandvic?

Source all leaks coming into the boat.

Put the smaller pump in the low position. It will take care of incidental water and is cheaper to replace. Mount it high enough so it won't continuously cycle because of hose water run back. Put the high capacity pump switch higher in the keel-sump so that it is used only in emergencys. Helps save an expensive pump.
Use UNCOVERED Rule super switches so that you can lift them out of the sump to SEE if they are working.
Use the manual pump to lower the water level in the sump. Save the electric.

There are threads here that discuss A/C leak sources.
Planning to take the boat offshore creates a way more intense level of leak protection. Some things requiring upgrading have been talked about on the forum. Make sure that what you might have to depend on is actually working. Checklist.
Investigate mounting the pumps to King-starboard or other plastic to make it easily removable so sump can be cleaned if necessary and pumps replaced or cleaned. Float and super switches same thing. To keep them in place in a crowded keel-sump. 338's sump may have to have non-submersible pumps.
Flex-impeller (non-submersible pumps) will burn up if run dry, have good head but way less capacity. Research how long a 'submersible' can be run out of water, ie, with a short hose into the bilge???
Attwood pumps DO NOT USE TINNED WIRE in their connecting wires.

Check out Snake River Electronics' "Bilge Buddy Pump Control" that senses water level in bilge without floats and can be set so rapid pump cycling can't occur.
Carry whole pumps as spares.
Submersible pumps are 'throwaways'. Most have a one year warranty. Seasonal maintenance could include replacing the bilge pump with a new one.

No manual pump can keep up with a 1" hole located two feet below the waterline. Nor can you depend on the largest electric Rule to keep up with a gusher like that! Have access to all parts of the hull. Carry a sailcloth hole-diaper as well.

[frank durant]

2 quick comments....Craig-LOVE the pale !! Ebb-post away....we'd all miss your 'loud mouth' if not here !! ;)

[c_amos]

Had an experience with another boat today that made this thread very timely.


.....Good connections. Use Ancor adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors. Have another piece of shrink wrap on the wire and after the above has cooled shrink that one over it all.

One advantage of the 'shallow bilge' on #226 is that by placing both pumps under the sink, they are both in the deepest part of the bilge, and close enough to the electrical panel to run the leads directly off of the pumps and the switch for the Rule, to a dedicated terminal block. I like to remove the cover off of a crimp connector, and crimp the bare terminal directly on to the wire. I then solder the crimped part of the connection, and heat shrink over the soldered end. This seals the end of the wire and the end of the crimp where the ends of the wires would normally be exposed is sealed with solder. I wired my old MG this way, and never had another electrical problem... no small feat for an MG :D



Set the system up for auto with manual overide. Wire bilge pumps directly to battery so that when you hit the battery selector switch when leaving the boat no matter what it says on the switch the boat is still protected.

I don't have a battery selector switch, but have the 750GPH pump on a selector switch where I can pump it manually or set it to automatic. (standard DPDT switch, with rule cover plate).

The 2000GPH pump is hardwired through the mercury switch. It does not share the same fuse as the other pump.

THe need for redundant wiring was made apparent just this afternoon. An Alberg 30 that is in my marina, that I watch of an out of town friend was noticed to be sitting low in the stern......

... she had had her floor boards floating once before when... the 'solid state' switch had failed. I had pumped her out and rigged a temporary spare float switch. When the owner came down, I recommended he consider a second pump, mounted higher then the other.

He mounted a rule 1500, on it's own float switch slightly higer then the smaller pump.

I was surprised today to look below and find the floor boards floating again... :confused:


I checked the power, it was on. I checked the battery status, it was good..... I then reached for the power cable for the lower pump. When I pulled on it to raise the pump, the pump started to run. It turns out he had connected both pumps through the same power wire, and there was a bad connection through the terminal that connected it to the battery.

Fixing the connection brought both pumps to life.



Check out Snake River Electronics' "Bilge Buddy Pump Control" that senses water level in bilge without floats and can be set so rapid pump cycling can't occur.

I do not believe that the rapid cycling is as much of a problem in practice on our boats as it may be where longer runs of hose are necessary.

The Rule switches, as I would expect most, are balanced so that they have a 'tipping point' where the water has to rise to a given height (say 2") before they turn on, but don't turn off until the water is below some much lower level (like 1/2 or 3/4"). I have read where some see the water that is contained in the hose flowing back into the bilge when the power is turned off and cycling the pump back on. The quart or two held in the hoses are not enough to come anywhere near raining the water high enough to 'tip' the floats back on.

As for solid state switches.... my experiences with electronics are that if it can fail, it will..... I have personally seen two of these 'better mouse traps' that have failed.


......No manual pump can keep up with a 1" hole located two feet below the waterline. Nor can you depend on the largest electric Rule to keep up with a gusher like that! Have access to all parts of the hull. Carry a sailcloth hole-diaper as well.

Agree, have my tapered plugs, quick set underwater epoxy, and rubber tarp patch all where I can get at em... :D



sometimes wonder if I should chime in as I don't want to appear as a know-it-all or a constant loud-mouth....

I appreciate it ebb. Your opinions are well reasoned and insightful... I hope anyone gets a tenth as much from my ramblings as I have from yours. :)

[John]

My Whale pump failed and I was faced with draining the bilge so I now own a 800 GPH pump. It and one of my 12V 25A supplies did a great job. (I keep trying to tell my wife there a few advantages to being a radio amateur)

So the question arises: How and where to mount the electric pump in my Commander? Do I just place as far down as I can through the first undercockpit access hatch. It appears as though that it where the pickup for the Whale is located. Or do I insert as far as I can aft through the aft hatch in the cabin? Then I can find an easier way to run the electrical.

I am on the hard. I hope others are enjoying the fresh breezes we are having here in New England.

WA1JG for the curious

[ebb]

I have two Shurflo* submersible bilge pumps that are going to get mounted to a leftover piece of 3/8" polycarbonate that will be positioned nearly vertical in A338's tiny narrow sump - which is right at the end of the glassed over encapsulated ballast under the bridgedeck.
I will, like others have done, put the tiny 3.75Amp 1000 pump at the bottom of the board and the humongous 8Amp 1500 pump about 9 inches above it.
As you know, the theory is that the little one will do 99% of the work and take care of piddlly stuff - and is cheaper to replace. The big one supposedly will move a lot more, more rapidly, and probably no where near enough in a real crisis.
There is room in the sump, barely.
The Shurflo pumps are modeled differently as to where the outlet hose is oriented.
But I think there is a way to get both hoses pointed aft while attached to the pull-board.
And there are no intuitive attachment points on the pumps for mounting.
It's possible that hose clamps could be used to strap the pumps to the board.
Each strainer can be attached to something flat underneath, but disengaging the two spring latches that hold the strainer on to the pump body is a problem - even on the midget.
Therefore designing someway that both pumps can be pulled up out of the sump is necessary.
While this sounds right, doing it with attached hoses and wires is a problem.
There can't be any swags in the hose as that limits 'head', so there isn't a possibility of extra hose length that would allow the pump array to be brought into a convenient position - like for unscrewing hose clamps, or clearing the strainers. And also for plain open access to the sump for cleaning.

I had to go with WaterWitch electronic buttons because there is no room for float switches in the sump OR on the board.
Anybody have success with WaterWitch?


HOSES:
Both pumps have 1 1/8" ID hose outlets.
It's a bit of an odd size and limits choices. At least I found that to be the case with Trident hose, your better known marine hose.

WARNING:
I ordered a custom length of Trident 1471180 Bilge/Livewell hose from pyacht. Clear with spiral black reinforcement. 1/8" wall.
I choose this because of the warranty and the specs said "no cuffs required."
When I opened the well SEALED shipping carton I was literally bowled over by the pungent, sweet, chemical smell!!!! Talk about Haz Mat!
Vinyl (PVC) hose, if it smells, is outgassing toxiins.
These are plasticisers called phthalates and have been poisoning people for years.
Phthalates mimic hormones and infiltrate our endocrine system.
ETC

So I wrote a letter to Mr Shields at dnshields@tridentmarine.com over a week ago. Asked him why would I put this crap down inside my boat?
I don't expect a reply.

If he did he would point out Trident has an alternative polyethylene hose of 1 1/8" ID that has cuffs every foot or so. Probably could have dealt with that. P. is relitively benign and probably has no odor at all.
Recommend you look into it.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________
*Shurflo - Rule - Whale - Attwood - Jabsco -Johnson - Seachoice.
I went with Shurflo because there seems to be less !%^#$@!! about this brand on the web.
Maybe all these submersibles are 'throwaway' pumps, as one cruiser called his (Rule) pumps,
but Shurflo has a good warranty and forum-talk dependability.
Seasonal maintenance for the cruiser includes replacing ALL his bilge pumps. Not in my budget!
Dependable is a good word for a pump that lives half forgotten in the bowels of a boat.

If this installation works out, I'll carry spares of the 3-year Shurflo 1000 (355-100-00)
It takes at lot less water to sink a small boat like the Ariel. So getting it out really is a matter of efficiency and speed.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________
ANTISIPHON LOOP
Forespar has a Marelon 1 1/8" vented loop (#903009). 1 1/8" barbed thru-hull (#906070)
Don't think Defender has these. VISA order direct from Forespar, 1-949-858-8820.
There is a brief 'Vented Loop' tutorial in Forespar's Tech Tips.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________
I think I will exit the large bilge pump HIGH UP through the topsides (not sure where yet - as ready access to the hose on the thru-hull fitting is extremely important imco. Vented loop access also! But I'm seriously presuaded that the bottom pump can exit into the cockpit under the seat - with no anti-siphon needed. This would allow a relatively short hose and a visual on what's happening.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________
way later EDIT (10/11) finally got pictures - if you go to ebb's photo gallery page
there is a photo of the pull board and some of its installation in the bilge: post #387

[ebb]

Dear Mr Borregaard,
First I wish to apologise for the delay in responding to your email of 16 Dec.2010.
This was forwarded to me while I was out of the country, but I didn't see it till this past Wednesday.

We appreciate your choice of Trident Marine XHD Bilge & Livewell Hose (#147-1180) for use in one or both applications on your sailboat.
I trust that you be be comforted to know that this and our other PVC hoses contain no "DEHP, BBP, DIDP, DaDP" or any other dirivatives or phltalates that are listed or known (domestically and internationally) to cause toxicity in humans or the environment.
Therefore, there is no reason or requirement to place warning labels on these hoses.
In regards to your concerns, I respectfully refer you to the web site **
www.phthalates.com
for further information on this subject. I found it very informative.
Please accept my assurance that the quality and safety of our products are our highest priority, and are the base upon which we have built our business and reputation.

Like many other materials used in hoses (rubber comes to mind easily), new PVC hoses typically have a distinct plastic odor which does not indicate toxicity.
The odor generally disapates relatively quickly in use.
This hose is very widely used throughout the boat building, repair yard, and consumer markets, and this is the first odor complaint that we have received in our 25 years in business.
While I believe this hose was the better choice for your application, if you and/or your crew find the odor to be unduly offensive, you may return it to Trident (alog with proof of purchase).
We will replace it with the cuffed polyethylene bilge hose. at no charge.

Best Regards and Happy New Year,
Bill Shields - President
Trident Rubber Inc.
585 Plum Run Road
Canonsburg, PA15317
!-800-414-2628

[** "The Phthalates Information Centre Europe is an initiative of the European Council for Plasticisers and Intermediates (ECPI)"
It looks to me like Bill Shields' "very informative" reading material is generated straight out of the plastics industry. So, as usual, it's not WHAT the words say but WHO is saying them.
AND so often, what is left out - what is not said.]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
flipping on a simple search of the web:
www.ecocycle.org
"Dangers of PVC (#3) Plastics, March 18, 2005
According to the Center for Health, Environment, and Justice PVC production fuses vinyl chloride molecules with toxic metals such as lead and cadmium, which are added as plasticizers and stabilizers.
Because of the chemical properties of chlorine, the by products of PVC production tend to be far more toxic, more persistent in the environment, and more likely to build up in the food supply
and the bodies of people
than otherwise similar chemicals that do not contain chlorine.
PVC is the only major plastic that contains chlorine, so it is unique in the hazards it cretaes.

In use, the toxic substances added to soften or stabilize the plastic do not bind to the toy, bottle or other product and are therefore prone to leaching. When your child or pet chews on a plastic PVC toy, for example, they can be ingesting these chemicals. One such chemical, DEHP, has been designated a "probable carcinogen" by the EPA."

I looked, maybe not persistantly, for an MSDS on the Trident PVC hose.
Perhaps it isn't required by the EPA. And to be told that in 25 years nobody has complained of the odor must show how COMPLACENT the proletariat has become - how NUMB we have become to the toxins in our lives.
That there are no 'warning labels' on PVC hose
may be more due to corporate ethics and an ineffectual and politicized EPA
than a "typical distinct plastic odor" (read common unregulated chemicals) that we accept as mildly annoying perfume. Or even find sexy as the smell of a new car interior.


I doubt that warning labels appear on any of the thousands of products that have been chewed by kids or pets. Nevertheless, the odor emitting from Trident PVC hose is a gas, and while this VOC, Volatile Organ Compound, will reduce after a while - it still is installed in a semi-closed air space. Bill Shields belittles the smell by comparing it with rubber smells.
However, most synthetic rubber is NOT made with chlorine and heavy metals.
We take the president of Trident at his word.
I don't believe there is an evironmentally friendly, or NO VOC PVC, product made by any corporation in this country.*
ALL PVC PRODUCTS ARE NOT RECYCLABLE. So far as I know - tell me it isn't so!
Every teething ring and plastic bag and credit card and plastic pipe and bilge hose made of PVC goes to the landfill where it stays for 10,000 years
and the chemicals continue to leach out and comtaminate our aquifers. Mega tons of plastic fragments contaminate gyres in the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans.
:mad:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________
*Metaphorically: FISH ROTS FROM THE HEAD DOWN

[pbryant]

I don't trust centrifugal pumps as my primary pump. The primary (pump at the lowest level of the bilge) doesn't need to be large, but it activates most often, and it IMHO needs to be a self-priming diaphragm pump that's insensitive to dips in the discharge line, and not stopped by mud, strands of hair, and other debris that collect there in concentration. There's nothing more discouraging than hearing your pump whirring away, discharging your battery, with no water coming out the discharge. And it's important to be able to actually see the discharge so you know it's working! Therefore, the discharge should be someplace that's visible at any degree of heel and without standing on your head. That eliminates the stern and both sides. There are only two places left: the engine port and the cockpit.

My primary pump is a Whale Bilge IC Automatic Remote Mounted Bilge Kit (http://www.whalepumps.com/marine/product.aspx?Category_ID=10000&Product_ID=10003&FriendlyID=Bilge-IC). It is expensive, for its GPH rating it uses more current than a centrifugal pump, and pumps only 300 GPH -- but it's reliable (your heart is a form of diaphragm pump). The intake/sensor head is at the lowest point in the bilge. That pump keeps the water level in my bilge to an amount that I can completely remove with three squeezes from a large sponge. The discharge is into the cockpit. Why? That's the shortest length from my mounting point just inside the starboard locker and -- it's impossible to not notice it's running from the cockpit. Water in the cockpit cannot drain back into the cabin because the pump has one-way valves (essential for its operation - just like inside your heart). Yeah, sometimes my shoes and pant legs get wet. I don't have an audible alarm on this pump because it activates frequently and an alarm freaks out my passengers (and disturbs my sleep if a little rain gets inside). I have a timer, a flashing LED, and a timer reset switch. I have seen many implementations of counters on bilge pumps. I have never understood why anyone would use a counter instead of a timer. Did the pump run once for one minute, or once for a week? There's a huge difference!

I have a small leak from the engine compartment into the cabin that I have spent many hours trying to locate (any clues anyone?) that admits water whenever the water level reaches the top of the engine port - which is just about anytime I was underway with good speed. So, I added a small centrifugal pump in the little well (bilge?) forward of the engine port. It's screwed down to a brick. It too stays very busy. That pump, and my two backup pumps in the bilge, discharge to the engine port. The backup pumps are a Rule 2000 and Rule 3700 pump, that activate progressively as the water level rises. Both have a float switch and an electronic Water Witch switch wired in parallel, and both have wake-the-dead loud alarms. They have never activated except during testing. I strongly recommend testing centrifugal pumps with a garden hose into the bilge -- the slightest dip in the discharge hose or strand of hair will prevent them from working.

My Ariel has only three through-hulls: the two cockpit drains and the tube for the rudder shaft. I'd eliminate those if I could figure out how. My depth sounder/water speed sensor is mounted to an oak plank that extends from the engine port. The two illegal head through-hulls have been removed and glassed in -- one of the nifty expensive bronze ball valves leaked around the ball seam and nearly sank my boat one windy night in the middle of the Bay - thank goodness for my wetsuit and plumber's epoxy putty that I had to stuff in from the outside. The sink hose has also been sealed since I discovered, after getting pooped offshore, that a full cockpit turns the sink into a secondary cockpit drain, i.e., water shoots into the cabin from the sink.

Through-hulls below the water line are evil and imperil the boat, and adding them for bilge pump discharges seems like a contradiction in objectives.

[Commander152]

SkipperJer,
I have a Commander and can easily find the Bidge access 1, 2, and 3. I don't see an access hatch for #4. I have the model without the inboard...have an outboard in the well.

The batteries for my electrical system seem to be where access 4 is. I moved the batteries and don't see an access hatch. Do some Commanders not have that access point?

thanks, mike

[SkipperJer]

Mike,
I not sure what you are looking for. I have three openings in the cabin sole: one forward of the compression post and two aft of the post. That's all I know of. You can see all the way to the bottom of the bilge from the third opening.

I've seen several locations for batteries in various Commanders. The terminal strip is usually (not always) on the starboard side mounted on the interior of cockpit wall. I originally found my battery in the starboard cockpit locker just aft of the terminal strip. I've seen them under the cockpit floor behind the wall between the cabin and the stern. To me both those locations made the batteries hard to move and service. I relocated mine to a battery box in the cabin under the bridge deck just aft of the ladder. I have it strapped to the wall. It puts it low and centered in the boat and is easy to get too when needed.

Does this help?

[Commander152]

Thanks SkipperJer,
In my question I was trying to ask about the existence of "Bilge access 4" in the attached diagram that I thought you posted. What you described in your note is the same kind of Bilge access I have: One hatch in front of the compression post and two aft of the post. But in the diagram there is a 4th access which I can't find on my boat and it sounds like you don't have either. So why is it in the diagram?

My farthest aft bilge access is only about 10 inches deep. It sounds like with yours you can see deeper into the keel. I wonder if someone just sealed mine. I often get water in it...I think it is leaking form above...so I'm reading about bilge pumps and searching for leaks.

I appreciate you comments on the battery. Mine are under the cockpit floor and I like your placement better.

thanks, mike
10317

[Bill]

Depending on the era when an A-C yacht was manufactured, the factory produced bilges of varying depths. The only constant (almost) was the location of the lead ballast.

[SkipperJer]

In your drawing I don't see anything like bilge access under the cockpit, just the engine location for the on-board power model. If you regularly have water in the bilge I'd recommend you find the leak now. I very occasionally get water when it is raining and the wind is blowing directly into the air scoop in the bow. Otherwise I'm dry with the exception of condensation within the interior when temp/humidity changes a lot. Slow leaks are insidious and often do long term damage to structural areas that are very hard to repair.