Mounting Winches

[CupOTea]

Imagine my surprise after following the installation directions on my incredibly expensive and brand new Lewmar self tailers to find that the bedding compound they say to put on the base of the winch for attaching to the winch pads had pushed up into the gear assembly! Life Caulk adhesive caulking in the gears - great.

So, I disassembled the winches from the pads and took the winches apart completely and cleaned and re-lubed them and am ready to start over.

Does anyone have any suggestions about bedding? The jib winches that came on my boat show no signs of any bedding or bedding residue - looks like they just bolted them onto the pads as is.

The instructions also mention drain holes in the winch base. Well, if there's bedding compound all the way around the base, how will the water that drains down through the winch escape?

No bedding on the winch pads wouldn't seem to be a problem since any water that comes through the pad will simply drip onto the deck. However -
I'm installing a winch on the cabin - as per many of the photos on the site - and that involves through bolts to the cabin where leakage would be bad.

I suppose I could bed just the perimter of the winch base and work out a little drainage canal in one spot? Anyone ever done this before???

[ebb]

None of the book writing experts ever get around to mentioning this. Just took a quick look: Vigor, Seifert, Calder, none think it important.
You, through experience (thank you very much for that) have shown us what NOT to do!

A winch will be very tightly fastened - you still may want to protect the wood/varnish it is usually mounted on. I don't believe any goop will survive the forces of cinching up the install OR the the side loads put on it when used.
The semi-liquid squeezes out.

I seem to remember thin gaskets were used to separate the metal from the wood. I wonder if manufacturers have them available for their winch bases, have you checked it out? Lewmar should have winch base seals.
Gasket will have just what you observe: cutouts matching the channels for the water to run out. Very important! I believe A338 had thin gaskets under the cockpit winches.

Gasket material is readily available. Maybe you could experiment for us on the material, design, cutting and fitting.
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w e l l.... you're not going to do that! Right?

So I go to my still new in the box Andersen's and look at the instructions for mounting tips. First on the "list of items needed" is bedding compound. Instructions say to apply a light coat of bedding compound on the bottom "ensuring the bolt holes are coated..."
"DON'T COAT THE UNDERSIDE DRAIN CHANNELS, THEY MUST BE LEFT OPEN."

By bedding compound they can only mean 'non-hardening' old fashioned bedding compound. It's not a rubber, but a kind of vasoline/mineral putty (Dolfinite) that will allow you to lift the winch base off the cabin top or coamings three years from now. Easy to apply and cleanup. Non lethal. It is not a sealant or adhesive. Original Dofinite never oozed, it squeezed out with cinching but then stayed put forever.

LATER EDIT:
Butyl tape might be a good choice for metal on wood, modern (made by Petit, I believe) Dolfinite will eventually harden -- but butyl will never harden and will always act as a sticky rubbery sealant. Not adhesive. Tube rubber adhesives like polysulfide when squeezed thin loose their barrier quality. Name brand butyl tape (Tremco) will be a water barrier no matter how tight the winch is fastened. Have to work it thin when applying around the circumference of the base to avoid getting it into the gears. You do want butyl in the chamfers you've made in the holes for fasteners. This is under the heads, but completely clear of threads. Do not use butyl tape on the threaded portion of fastenings.
Since butyl tape is so clean and easy to use, 'dry' runs can be done. Apply what you think - plunk the winch down - lift it off to see what you did. Correct it. Collect it off using a sticky ball. Do it again, just right. It be there just as you left it six years from now. And will pry right off!!

[Rico]

I used life calk - On the Andersen winches; just enough on the base to keep the moisture from sitting there and a bit in the middle as bedding. I was sure to keep the drainage slots clear.

On the original southcoast winches: I also used life calk. Again, a bead around the edges to keep moisture out and a thin layer all over just to provide an even bed for support.

Be sure to give the stuff plenty of time to cure. It takes a while!

[ebb]

For discussion I propose a 'cheat' to make it fairly easy to bolt winches on the cabin top.
There will be a ring of five or six #12 or 1/4" bolts. You have to drill them thru the liner which has a space between it and the roof. The space will imco vary between 1/4" and 1/2".
You will be putting in a wood backing block to allow cinching the bolts. But because of the hollow behind the liner you can end up with leaking anyway - and the water getting in will run down the inside of the liner to the shelves that most Ariels have riding on the stringers. This can be a problem with anything mounted on the cabin like the rails.

The cheat is to buy 2oz syringes from a fiberglass supply.
Mix up a gel of fumed silica and epoxy and squirt it into the holes you have drilled.* You are hopefully filling in the space with a pad of solid epoxy. Only you will know how much of a doughnut of epoxy/gel you are getting in there. The stuff has to build up between the two surfaces and spread out - has to be the right consistency - have to experiment. After set, redrill the holes and bolt on the winch. Probably get away with a lot thinner backing block. IF you really got the knack of backfilling the liner you might have created all the backing you need and MAYBE you can get away with only fender washers. Certainly easier than carving a backing block to fit the curve. IMCO.
This is not a recommendation, just a possible idea.

The alternative and probably easier way for most people is to drill the winch holes... BUT only thru the cabin roof (and not thru the interior liner) Squirt in the gel, enough to create an interior pad around the hole (between cabin molding and liner). Let set. Then redrill thru. Chamfer the screw holes in the cabin 'roof' to create a caulking 'washer' under the winch* --and provide a backing plate. A thicker plate will make it possible to counterbore the machine screw (bolt) holes to inset the nut and washer, and cut the shank flush.
* If you oversize the mounting holes 1/64 or 1/32 oversize, it will give all the screws a bit more ease to fit.

imco filling the liner space is worth the effort.
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* If your gel is the right consistency - let's say slightly loose but still thick like soft beaten egg whites - the stuff can be sucked up into the syringe by pulling on the plunger. Easier than filling by hand.

[CupOTea]

Thanks, gents. I'm mounting the winches to the original fiberglass pads which I have renovated and reinforced (on the inside with a 1/4" of vinylester putty). So, I'm not too worried about protecting the top of the pad - more about providing a good even mounting surface.

BUT - I cannot for the life of me find the drainage channels you speak of. (Lewmar calls them drain holes) The base of the winch is as flat as can be. There are two holes. One where the output gear spindle comes down thru and and one at the bottom of the main spindle (there's a little plastic plate that Lewmar fails to name which is loose enough to let water dribble through) - but no slots or channels etched into bottom of the the base itself.

Apparently your winches have said channels/slots?

The boat's original winches - which I'm replacing - have completely flat base bottoms as well.

Are we talking about water escaping from under the winch base - or down throught the mechanisms and out throught the housing (drum).

The drum does have what look like gear teeth around the inner perimeter of the inside on the bottom which would let water out of the winch - and I could see that someone doing a really sloppy job could obstruct those with over-oozed bedding - but no obvious channel for water to drain out from under the base.

Am I missing something here?

I actually like the idea of making a gasket but that would seem to make the drainage situation worse if the water is supposed to travel under the base.

I've thought that I could leave a toothpick in the bedding bead around the perimter of the base and then pull it out after the bedding cures a bit to create a small weep hole where moisture and water could escape. Thoughts on that?

[CupOTea]

ebb wrote: An alternative is to drill the winch holes only thru the cabin roof (and not thru the interior liner) and squirt in the gel from the top. Probably easier. Then drill thru.

Just saw this, ebb and will do it exactly that way - creates a nice epoxy puck.

thx

[ebb]

My old SouthCoast's are totally flat on the bottom with no exposure to the inside gears and no channels or waterways to lead water away from the interior.
Obviously water that got in would exit top of the mounting plate.
The SouthCoast's, however, are not totally blank on the bottom of the plate. The center is used as a bearing for the turning action of the top (where the winch handle goes). When the top is moved you can see it moving in the bottom of the base. Seems to me this should drain, but there are no races cast into the plate to act as drainage. Can see a split hard gasket put in when mounting to allow trapped water out from the center bearing.

The Andersen's have a large opening in the center of a heavy cast mounting base with total exposure to the interior gears. Really a very large washer! Two sraight channels with very little height are cast into the ring plate. I'd make sure the plate is mounted so the channels drain. Channels is a very big word for some very small drain races.
But because the winch's interior is exposed to any liquid going in and out the channels are there to drain any trapped salt water away.
Therefor don't clog 'em.

I don't have access to Lewmar's. Something I read makes me think that they have special gaskets to use when mounting. DON'T KNOW. That might explain the lack of any small canals in the base? But if the plates are not open to the gears inside and are flat like the old SouthCoast's then any entering and draining is going to be done between the drum and the base plate.
Maybe Lewmar's are like the SC's, not exactly blank on the bottom, but have an active thru bearing in the center that correctly needs to be drained?

Gaskets would mean that the mounting surface has to be completely dead flat, no fudge. So to have a flat mounting surface for the cabin winches is a big plus. If the inside of the liner is hockey-pucked, as you say, then custom molded flat epoxy islands for the winch bases are also possible. I would add chopped strand to the mix.
The pies could be made, like the mast base, out of epoxy soaked meranti. Or good ole mahogany.

[CupOTea]

ebb wrote: "The Andersen's have a large opening in the center of a heavy cast mounting base with total exposure to the interior gears. Really a very large washer! Two sraight channels with very little height are cast into the ring plate. I'd make sure the plate is mounted so the channels drain. Channels is a very big word for some very small drain races."

The Lewmars have a plastic gear retainer (Don Casey's word) at the center of the base that sounds similar - the fit is loose enough (it just lays against the base in a shallow indentation) for water to get through. But then that water has to go somewhere -

Drain races are exactly what I'm looking for and the Lewmar's don't have them as far as I can tell.

A split hard gasket would do it I guess - but I'd have to perfect the pad surface - and I want to go sailing at this point.

It's amazing how little is written on this subject...

[carl291]

This is a great way to mount any item to the deck or cabin roof.

[ebb]

Hey Carl, do you mean the butyl tape? We talked about it in reference to glazing. I'm using it on the dodger and the slab-on cabin windows.
I found guys using it to mount port lights. Maybe winches? who is going to try it first here?
And the newest goop expert on the net(MaineSail) gives it the highest rating.

Certainly seems like versatile material and has good reasons to be used to mount track and cleats and other flat hardware.
It's clean to use,
you can hardly squeeze it out when fastening (which is the trouble with tube caulk),
doesn't smell and doesn't out-gas (altho butyl in other forms has a bad rap)
and it's cheap,
It's resillient and lasts forever. It doesn't cure - it is what it is.
and you can take things apart later without ripping off the gelcoat.*
Comes in white, grey, and black. Grey being the most popular.
(try McMasterCarr, glazers, roofers, RV supply and see their forums).
RV suppliers and roofers have rolls of putty tape that might be comfused with butyl tape - not the same.
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* There is a "5200" version of butyl tape called Eternabond.
It supposedly bonds things together like an adhesive and lives forever.
I got a roll. It IS very sticky, hard to handle because it is very sticky, pulls out of shape too easy. One good reason to use butyl is its ease of handling.

Many brands and aps of butyl tape. One might not work at all on the boat, while another brand will have the right consistency, thickness, sealability.
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Tube caulk has it's uses. It is expensive and once opened whatever you don't need is wasted.
Have to buy a roll of butyl, but it's 6 bucks and you can use left overs for the next project.
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"3M 4000 UV POLYETHER adhesive sealant" tube caulk is one of those new silyl-terminated hybrids that, unlike polyurethanes which continue to cure until hard, is said to stay totally flexible for 35 years.
The stuff is a sealant, not an adhesive, so things can be taken apart for maintenance later. It costs $20 at WM - where the description also says it can be used for thru-hulls. But the verdict is still out on polyether underwater use. So if you insist on wet stuff for deck hardware I would try this. Doesn't attack plastic, no smell, no out-gasing, and they say the cosmetic joint line is the best of all the goops.
Copperstate Roofing Supply has Sonolastic 150 VLM (polyether in a number of colors) for $5.79 - 10oz tube. Haven't tried it yet.
Haven't found anybody talking about differences between 3M polyether and other NON-MARINE brands.

[carl291]

Actually, my comment was in reference to the drilling and back filling of the voids with an epoxy mix to stop water intrusion into the deck core or the cabin lining. Butyl tape is an amazing sealer with a very long life, even if the hardware has some movement, The butyl tape doesn't give up the ghost and lose the seal. If some should squeeze out it is easily trimmed and cleaned up,,, well easier than tube sealer.

[CupOTea]

It took them awhile to get back to me but "the word" on mounting winches is LifeCaulk or some similar adhesive bedding compound in the mounting screw holes and that's it.

That said, I had already given up waiting to hear from them so I did the screw holes and a bead around the perimiter - leaving a 1.5" gap right under the small gear spindle so that any water that ends up under the base can drain or evaporate out. It seems to be working in tests.

A couple of tips from a guy who's been bedding his brains out for the past couple of weeks - I place the bedded object and then tape around it - be careful about the speed at which you pull up the tape when you're finished - too slow or too fast can cause a mess - I use vinyl gloves extensively - using my fingers to smooth and mold the goop into position. I keep a Windex bottle full of tap water handy - spraying the goop speeds curing once you have the it where you want it - this has the advantage of fiinishing the job faster and reducing the mess. Finally, I go back around the edges and the hardware and clean it and the surrounding area with Interlux 202 which seems to to a better and faster job than the Remover product or Solvent product that Life Caulk sells.

[ebb]

Thanks Cuppa!

Just for alternatives:
Interlux 202 is described as a cocktail of fast and slow solvents. It's stated main purpose is to clean fiberglass in prep for other coatings. The slow is to help dissolve wax - very important like for epoxy to stick.

Maybe the Interlux MSDS lists the toxics, but nowadays they get way with not telling you because it's protected trade secret. LaDeDah. Bet it has xylene, toluene, mek and other twenty syllable chemicals from hell.

Thiocol has been around since WWII, when all they probably had was paint thinner (mineral spirits - aliphatic petroleum distilate with a bit of 1-2-4 trimethylbenzene) and naptha for cleanup. Paint thinner cleans up wet polysulfide pretty good, and DOESN'T ATTACK THE RUBBER.
Still don't want to breathe these demons, but imco they are far less lethal. Less expensive. I don't use acetone if I can help it. Clean up wet polysulfide with it and you don't need to wait for it to evaporate like thinner. acetone is instant. Polysulfide can take days/weeks to set up. Sometimes misting with water will help speed it along.

However Interlux 202 may be the bullet to help dissolve old wax like built up cleaners and cosmetics off the gelcoat of Ariels/Commanders.
I had a couple epoxy failures on the decks by the cockpit on A338. Did the prep and the epoxy peeled. Didn't use the 202.
Wonder if this brew will help on old silicone contaminated surfaces??? Learned that some solvents DRIVE contaminates deeper in the gelcoat. Sounds like 202 is formulated to LIFT contaminates out! Hmmmmm.

Carl's comment, "The butyl tape does not give up the ghost and lose the seal." Butyl tape can be squeezed out leaving a very thin line of
rubber. It will still be doing its job as a bedding and sealer. This cannot be said for all other marine rubber caulks-sealants-adhesives, including polyethers. They must have thickness to work. Because they set-up, or cure, there must be material to adhere to all surfaces to act as a gasket. 5200 may be the exception.
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LATER EDIT
Construction & roofing industries & Kaneka(?) in Japan are responsible for the introduction of polyethers to their trades. Marine polyethers are a convenient spinoff for marketers to gouge sailors. WM Multi-Caulk (NO MSDS & currently $23) and 3M4000UV (about $20 from WM) are made with solvents and require solvents for cleanup: toluene & mineral spirits. Multi-Caulk cannot be used on Lexan & ABS. Not sure about the 3M product. Both can be used underwater. They are glues, not bedding compounds.
As far as I can tell, all polyethers are universally exempt from UV degredation, many say in their specific tech data that a product is not recommended for continual immersion. Imco the roofing industry is well regulated and various products are supported with MSDS & Tech Data
sheets. Sealants used on skyscrapers for caulk & glazing must be pretty amazing & dependable materials. Some of these highend goops are available to us lowlifes in the consumer base.
A green "new generation" polyether called M-1 by ChemLink is available from bestmaterials.com for about $5, 10oz tube.. Amazing attributes with alcohol or soap&water cleanup. A primer is recommended for immersion. But this is for membrane roof material.
The primer is used in roofing to insure a bond between the caulk and polyethylene & p.propylene film products called TPO's. Haven't tried it yet, but that means we are able use M-1 for metal & plastic hardware, anywhere on the boat. Or or caulking/sealing Starboard? This may be the universal stickum we've always been looking for all jobs around the boat.
M-1 is classed as an adhesive. Adhesives are thin-line goops. Sealants are thick-line. Structural polyether adhesives are firm but still flexible. Chemlink has other low modulous (softer) polyethers that might be used above water line for stanchions, winches and mast hardware (thinking same great bond but easier later take apart) and a waterclear polyether that might be useful with lexan & acrylic port lights, for instance. This at the moment is merely info, as I haven't used this greener stuff.....yet. The TPO primer is mostly volatile nasty solvents!
Non-structural polyethers have flexibility ratings upwards of 1000%! And don't ever get hard like urethanes. Research it! Good place to start is the bestmaterials.com site OR greenbuildingsupply.com. bestmaterials is great for online total info: MSDS and tech data. (They will not take phone orders & I won't publish bank numbers on the net. Contacted ChemLink who were very friendly and put me in touch with more friendly local sales reps. Dick Bishop told me which roofing suppliers in my area stock M-1 - and sell single tubes. Greenies won't sell the TPO bond enhancer/primer.)

[CupOTea]

Here's the final product. Lewmar 16 self tailers - which barely fit on the winch pads. Prior to mounting, I filled the holes from the old Southeasts with epoxy/filler and smeared vinylester putty (thanks Mike Goodwin!) up underneath and all over the exposed fiberglas cloth on the underside of the pads to reinforce. Used a drill bit to form pockets in the dried putty base for the 1/4 washers required. 1/4 lock nuts and they're ready to go.

Went for the Lewmar winch grease to re-assemble the parts. $17 a tube but you use very little. Same for the pawl oil. Important to not overdo it with the grease, which attracts dirt and can end up in the pawls - preventing them from releasing properly.

For anyone who's had problems getting the colletts in in the final stage - just lift the main spindle up around 5mm with your index finger and snug them right in there and you can get the feeder arm back on.

BTW - in my winch odyssey I came across the One Touch winch handle. I went to visit inventor Don Steiner up in CT. He licensed his design to Lewmar who made a metal version - but his composite version is lighter and better IMOO. The entire handle arm is a big button. When you're ready to unlock it from the winch and move to another winch - you just grab the arm and go. Here's the website: http://www.onetouchhandle.com/