Gaining headroom by lowering floor

[maikelc]

Has anyone done this...only need to get an extra inch and my sweetie could stand tall. Don't see any mechanical fastening or fibreglass tabbing so i presume it's held in place with goopuckie of some sort. cheers, maikel, hull#44

[ebb]

Captain maikelc sir,
Can be done. But it will be an awful lot of work for ONE INCH!

As Halsey or L.Francis once said when someone complained they couln't stand up
in one of their boats....
Wouldn't think about standing up in a Cadillac, do you? Something like that.

If you guys plan on walzing in the accomodation, then increasing the headroom is probably called for.
But by lowering the sole you will be substantially decreasing your dancing area.
as the hull continues to narrow as it goes deeper.
If she later decides a piece of carpet would be nice, her head's against the liner again!

There also will be messy itchy grinding if you plan on reducing the original tabbing back to the hull.
There is only one very expensive tool* that could be recommended for the job
- otherwise you will have fiberglass dust in every nook and cranny inside the boat.

Good luck with it!
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*Festool RAS 115 4 1/2" sander-grinder, $300. Combined with Festool CT26 HEPA Dust Extractor, $575. Plus accesories.
Major investment. But also the very best tools you can own at this point in time.
You might still need a good mask.
[There is something holding the plywood deck in place. I found tabbing when the sole was removed in A338.
Carving the lumps back to the hull can possibly be done by 'peeling' them off with sharp wood chisels, thereby saving your lungs & checkbook.]
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Look up in the Tech Forum: "Boat Restoration - The Ugly Truth"
Not exactly answering the 'lowering' question, but a good read!
(Really miss Commander Pete's posts and photos)

[kendall]

The sole directly below the hatch was like a springboard, for about 2 feet back. After trying to figure out ways to fix it without removing it, I decided I had to cut it out. I found that the sole was originally cut to shape, then thickened resin was globbed on in the general are it would fit and the sole was placed in position. Afterwards a layer of cloth and resin was placed over it. I wouldn't exactly call it tabbing, but that's the only tabbing that was in it. In my case there was very little globbing at the rear. As far as I can tell, the globbing is simply resin with snap line chalk mixed in. If sole is bad or loose and needs repair, it's worth lowering it as you desire, but if it's in good shape it's not worth the effort to remove it.

[ebb]

Kendal. Right! That's how it was.
The under ply was a fiberglassed affair that was (I guess)
cut loose to fit to allow ajustment for leveling, spot gooped in, then glassed.
Then the teak plywood on top of that. No filler in the joint underneath the first layer in the bilge, all gooping was done from the top.
Makes it a bit easier for the remodeler when ripping it out and cleaning up.
Remember when using polyester resin you move like a madman, because it sets up while you're sweating on it.
And those guys at Pearspn working in the bowl of the boat breathing styreen crap 8hrs a day, poor saps.

A couple of us posted here in the past of finding some blue material we came across in separate remodels
that was glassed in with everything else.
First time I've heard that it was line chalk - and I believe you're right!

In A338, all of the tabbing is/was done with mat - a little done with roving. Never saw any cloth used inside.

[Tony G]

Maikel,
I lowered the cabin sole about an inch and it is just like Ebb and Ken posted above. I though,t if we can't have 30-40inches of cabin sole athwarthship whats 1 or 2 inches less than what we have? And dropping it one inch will take about 1.5" off the width of the sole. If you think the head room is something you can really enjoy then go for it. You can address the limited bilge access at the same time.

If you haven't bought one yet, look into getting yourself an ocillating multi-tool. While the cheap ones are not the Executive G-4 dreams likes Ebb Refers to, they are incredibly handy for jobs as this and generate very little dust in the cutting sanding process. Take a little of the saved cash and buy a shop vac and you're in business. Of course the ususal protective precautions need to be taken. We've all done stupid stuff with our safety, but, that's why we call it stupid... Take before, during and after photos.

[ebb]

A thread in the Tech section of this forum.

TonyG's recommendation to use an oscillating multi-tool is right on!


Wherein the oscillating Fein Multimaster is bashed, also by yours-truly.
Since that time, there are maybe a dozen new versions of oscillating blade tools that sport the revolutionary dog-leg blade with teeth on the front,
that pocket cuts into things up close and personal.....better than any other electric tool, that could possibly do that sort of thing.
Even that nopinion has been opened to question with the invention by one innovative poster using an air tool mounted with a piece of stainless spring guage steel for cutting into Pearson's Ariel tabbing.

Time and patents have passed and Fein's wood cutting E-blades have morphed into what they always should have been:
BI-METAL SUPER BLADES......don't know that Fein actually has them yet.....if they did, I couldn't afford them.

Check out IMPERIAL* blades on the Holbren Precision Cutting Tools site. There they have a YouTube demo showing a Fein being used with an Imperial BI-METAL 1 1/4" E-blade to cut ninety-seven (97) 16penny nails hammered into a 2x4..... without stopping. And then, after that, cut off the end of the 2x4.....without changing the blade! Not an exciting video, but plenty impressive. Cutting 97 nails is easy. Cutting 97 year old (slight exaggeration) Ariel tabbing can be awkward, tough, and complex because the blades and the tool are not designed to carve thick hardass fiberglass.

Guessing, if it's the right blade you could easily excise the floor of your cabin... in 15 MINUTES!. Add an hour.
And if the ancient ply is in good shape, trim it, and glue it back in lower down.



Hardly any dust. Probably. My Fein is semi-retired, I'll order some of those royal blades because they are half to 1/3 the price what I originally got robbed by Fein for their dull-fasts. 'You buy our tool, we'll sock-it-to-ya on replacement blades you can't get anywhere else!'
(I see friendly Fein blade prices have also dropped, but would I trust them? Remember reading that Fein took people to court when they tried to market smarter blades that fit their tool - and put them out of business.)

Maybe start by getting a Chicago brand multi-oscillator from Harbor Freight and trying the Imperial BI-METAL on the floor in the Ariel. Tool is LOUD and gets hot. $22.** Set of 3 Imperial bi-metal saw blades, $32. Guy on a YouTube demo sez, get some ear muffs too.
**about the price for ONE of Fein's dog leg E-blades!

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*NOT advocating the use of this company's products. Know for a fact the legendary Lenox bi-metal blades are made with cobalt grade HSS M42.
Cobalt is the Uber in Super when we're paying for the best. The Imperial web site has gear reviews and tips on how to use their blades mounted in high speed oscillators. There is a knack to keep from burning blades. Since they are in the business of making blades for everybody, their multitool reviews are rather blah.
So is any revelation on what their blades are made with.
"...the industry's highest quality high speed steel material..." [RedFlag mush-speak] is advertised - but the GRADE OF STEEL IS NOT. If you buy the blades and they do satisfactory work, that's OK. These blades are said to be US made. But nowhere do they brag their hss-steel (lower case!) has tungston or molybdenum in alloy. Some BS about titanium coating. Won't trust these people yet! But definitely will try out their bi-metal dog leggers.
Keeping an eye out for lithium cordless, which have not made the grade yet on the oscillators. I'll order 'universal arbor' blades that fit all makes.
Have not ordered from Holbren. You'll notice their website has some teeth missing....
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The internet is awash in cordless multi-tool ads & reviews, most are adulterated hype. The race is on for a long lasting lithium or silver nitride, whatever battery lasts longer than 20 mins doing hard work - and fast charges in 15. Fein has an eighteen volt & a fourteen volt. Charge time unknown. None of the talking faces have any idea how to talk to a fully conscious tool buyer.
If the hype is aimed at the DIY weekender, ignore it! If no info is exchanged - maybe there is no info.
The Fein lithium new-gen multi's have a 30/35 dgree up-tilt to their rather fat batteries that to me shouts BOAT WORK. It's like the CLOSE QUARTER design (I can attest to) that gets you into places that even right angle barrel handle tools can't. Maybe they can be forgiven for being such snots in the past. Look for smart reviews of these two cordless wallet bombs.
All imco.

[maikelc]

Thanks to all of you for your advice and input. We considered getting a bigger boat in part so Madeline could stand upright. My first boat, a converted US navy whaleboat, had sitting headroom only. It was ok, you walked around bent at the waist till you found somewhere to sit. Somehow that was easier to deal with than not being able to stand straight...and one inch would make all the difference. The Ariel is a keeper-and so is my sweetie.
The floor is definitely gooped in, some of it added by me to fill the gap around the edge of the floor. I was thinking to cut out the size floor I want to end up with-vertical cut using sabre saw-and beveling the underside to fit, then chiseling and grinding away the goop, tabbing and rest of the wood. Wasn't familiar with the oscillating multi-tool. Looks like it would make the job a bit easier and I appreciate the heads up. Will let you know how it goes and send pics. Maikel

[ebb]

Knocking an inch off yer sweetie is probably not very productive.

Lowering the cabin sole is a subject that many are interested in.
Altho at times it may not seem so.

Please, if you can, record some of your experiences here.
Bound to be more feedback with PICTURES!
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Right, You can see better what's happening if you cut the old deck out first.
Then pare off the stubs back to the hull.

If the boat's not on level, make some indelible marks of where the old deck was,
so you can measure down to the new. Check to see if the front edge of the ply seat of the settees
were installed level to the floor - or use them as datum.
Ebb put in a new cabin deck and tilted it slightly aft toward the sump for positive drainage
- Pearson probably did this too, but I can't remember.

Could cheat in an extra 1/2" more, or so, by aft tilting the whole length of the sole a little more
- gaining some more head room (but less foot room) around the galley area.
Not too much, don't want uphill & downhill down below!
(sorry if I seem patronizing)

[maikelc]

Tried wrapping sweetie in plastic. She looked sexy but didn't shrink. In fact I'm shrinking, apparently happens with age. At current rate I'll be able to stand up in a cadillac before i die......No worries about sounding patronizing. I haven't done this before, I'm glad it's merely hard not harebrained.

[ebb]

Cpt. maikelc,
I'm shrinking too, guess that's the game, getting shorter, shorter with time.
Some of it is turning under, my feet got larger & wider. That's a plus!

Just wondering how to approach the deck project.
Am a believer in full size patterns, less surprises, using large white poster cardboard found at office suppliers....
and blue tape. Think I'd use the present deck before surgery to tape together an accurate pattern of what's existing.
and use it when laying out a shrinked version on the new plywood.

On the new piece you can chamfer the edges and get it tight.

I'll bet, because the hull was hand layed up, dimensions inside changed when Pearson put a hull together.
So that when it came time for the guys to put in the floor they used a rough cut out piece propped in place with gobs of goop and mat.
Then came back after set and glued it in better with a full piece of matt lapped up the hull a bit and closed off the holes!
They had a jig for positioning the sole. But they hung it in place, tabbed it in imco.

With a full size pattern at table height, it's easy to lay out the centerline - also lay out the teak and holly stripping! - and access hatch(es).
Might not find that a correct pattern is a completely symetrical 'butterfly' match when folded along the centerline.

Must be obvious - I'm all for customizing - happy project!
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"There's always one more way to do something: Your way." Waylon Jennings