A question for all of you on the sink drain

[Commander 147]

How many of you have cut the old glass tube out and installed a proper sea cock in it's place for the sink drain?

Of those of you that have what issues did you run into along the way?

[bill@ariel231]

Jerry

I replaced both of A-231's cockpit drains with forsespar 1.5". seacocks. My only issue in fitting was the need to shorten the drain tubes from the cockpit sole.
As far as the galley sink goes, i had originally plumbed the port side seacock to drain both the cockpit and the sink. Since my sink was relocated outboard by 8" inches or so, it tended to fill with water when the boat was knocked down on stbd tack. I elected to move the sink drain to a dedicated sump / electric pump located under the port settee. An easier alternative that will not require power is a separate seacock for the sink to let you secure the sink when off shore.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

[ebb]

I hope it's OK for big mouth to post again.
I would go with what Bill@231 says.

BUT
once you remove the old tube and repair the holes conservatively with feathering and fiberglass disks to the strength of the hull. .... then you can try the seacocks for the best position on the hull in relation to the aft cockpit drain tubes. You may find that your new holes go at least partly through your new repair.
If you use a real seacock you will have an epoxxied backing blocks to mount the valves to and to drill the three bolts through. You also will be shortening the hose length, which may make a good connection harder.

If you are upgrading completely you will need to find a "wet exhaust" type hose (instead of sanitation hose) for the connection. There is nothing stiffer than reinforced hose. There is almost no room to make the "double bend" from the cockpit to the valves.

I ran my cockpit drains out the stern. I can't defend this option because it has some problems.
But I did run the sink to its own 1 1/2" Marelon seacock. The length of tube from the sink drain to the valve barb extension is very short - but at a similar angle that the cockpit seacocks would have.
You can look at many kinds of reinforced hoses at McMasterCarr. I would choose a hose with plastic wire reinforcement. I bought some translucent green pvc stuff that seems pliable enough to make the turn in the short length and seat well on both barbs. Most hoses are rolled and come to us with a set curve that helps make the connection.
However I'm convinced I really need a Trident brand silicon wet exhaust hose - just one foot of it will cost a bomb - because it is slightly flexible, is made with fabric and is less likely to get pierced, and less likely to collapse when bent, smooth inside and has a long warranty...
Haven't got it yet, Been waiting for a tip from somebody here..

[ebb]

The American Boat and Yacht Council sets the standards we refer to constantly for AC/DC electrical systems - Buoyancy - Cathodic Protection - and Seacock, Thru-hull Connections & Drain Plugs.
There are many more standards and the list keeps growing. The seacock standard is found under H-27. Cost is $50 for a copy!
A.B.Y.C. is a private not-for-profit corporation. Basically the organization is staffed by professionals from the industry. Forespar sits on the Council - and all the other familiar names do also.
The standards they set are all the guide we have as 'recreational sailors.' The Coast Guard also is a major influence on the Council, consider it an acting third party to any regs we abide with. There are professionals outside the profit motive field, but generally, we have to see these propounded STANDARDS as the minimum requirement for SAFETY. It is about safe yachting and safe products.

H-27: (partially) ...the seacock assembly shall be securely mounted so that it will withstsnd 30 seconds of a 500 pound weight
in its most vulnerable position.
"securely mounted" is not defined or specified.

Since most of us don't have a 500# weight we can carry around we are left with interpreting the reg in our practical situation.
If the Forespar god shows us a diagram of his recommended installation it is up to us to decide, to imagine, that a 500# weight on an unsupported thru-hull that has an unsupported in-line valve perched on it will not bend or break Is it SAFE. What if the 500# weight was leaning on it for ONE MINUTE. What if the FULL 500# weight was SUSPENDED with a chain from the valve/thru-hull?
Don't recall that Forespar or Groco show us their A.B.Y.C. mandate in photos of actual tests on their product.

I'm pretty sure that A.B.Y.Council members don't think that Joe Dingkle is going to test his thru-hull installation with a 500# weight .
And that may be reason why Forespar AND Grocco SHOW unsafe imco installations in their literature.

In Groco's defense you can buy from them a bronze flanged adapter that makes the in-line valve more secure. The adapter is thru- bolted to the hull, the thru-hull is screwed into the adapter (it doesn't therfore float unsupported) and the in-line is screwed onto the inside end of the adapter (which we assume has matching threads. It definitely shows they are aware of the in-line valve problem (without retraction).
Forespar does NOT have a Marelon adapter to make in-line valves more secure in their cheaper installation.
Can see doing this if you must have an 85-5-5-5 bronze in-line valve However it is a much taller system, might not get enough hose into our tight quarters. A true bronze seacock is quite squat.
And is it that much more expensive than an in-line valve on an adapter? It would be a decent retro fit if you have bronze in-lines already installed on hole liners.

Cannot use a bronze fitting with a plastic valve. Cannot use a bronze valve on a plastic thru-hull.
Buy all the bronze pieces to a system from one manufacturer.

[bill@ariel231]

I used the 1.5" seacocks for my cockpit drains and head discharge (for offshore), 1.0" for the engine intake, 3/4" for the head raw water intake.

all of my seacocks are forespar marelon flanged seacocks mounted with backing blocks, thru bolts and bedded in 3M 5200.

I don't about how to test the 500# requirement, but I can tell you that when i changed out my first set of marelon 1.5" seacocks under the cockpit**, removal required a reciprocating saw, a propane torch, a 3/4" drum sander and the angle grinder.

note: ** from this experience, i recommend you buy new seacocks, free leftovers from other people's projects are no bargain

[ebb]

Jerry, that's how the vote goes in this post.
I'm for Marelon because it guarantees no corrosion that can eat up bronze seacocks.
I don't believe the ABYC still recommends linking all the boats underwater metal together with wire to protect them from galvanic corrosion.
But how would you zinc your thru-hull?

85-5-5-5, 85% Cu, 5% Pb, 5% Zn and 5% tin, called Gun Metal by the Brits,
has a long history as an excellent underwater cast bronze. The lead and zinc are for machinability, the tin locks the alloy together.
Bronze needs whatever electical system you believe in to stay healthy.
While the s.s. ball inside won't corrode in the first 5 years, forums report that the Groco valve stem gets eaten.

Bronze seacocks can be taken apart and serviced.
Marelon valves cannot be fixed. If a handle breaks it can be replaced.
The ball inside my Marelon seacock is plastic.
I hope to make the hose and hose-barb assembly easy to remove.
Maintenance requires a little dab of Lanocote on the ball to keep the handle free to move.
Can be done while the boat is in the water.

Forespar is on the internet.
There is a phone.
Maybe we should have a spare handle?

[Commander 147]

Thanks guys for your replies. I'm not sure I followed all your advice since I have so little experience with seacocks.

I did know the "right" thing was to change it out to a proper seacock. When I think about how much work I'm putting into this boat already it seems kind of silly to take a shortcut on something as important as this. It would be bad enough if the boat sunk with nobody on it. But even worse if my family was on it.

So now maybe you can help me understand the things I don't understand so I can do this right.

With a conventional Bronze seacock you have a thru hull mushroom fitting that goes thru the hull and screws up into the seacock. I do not seem to find any similar fittings (the thru-hull part) to go with the Marelon seacocks. So how is that handled?

With Marelon seacocks you still bolt thru the hull. Are these bolts Bronze or stainless or???? And do you typically use a carriage bolt or a countersunk head with screwdriver slot or?????

When it comes to the blocking inside the hull can I simply use some of the 3/8 thick fiberglass panels I have here and set the block in a bed of thickened epoxy to get the flat surface for the seacock to sit on? Or is there a better way?

It sounds like once I get the old glass tube out and the hull patched in that area it might be a good idea to move the sink over to the port side so I have a fresh area of hull to install the seacock in. I'm completely redoing the inside anyway and this would not be hard for me to do.

[Scott Galloway]

Jerry,

For one more opinion, I recently separated the sink drain line from the port cockpit drain line. Previously the sink drain joined the cockpit drain at a "T". The sink now drains through a bronze Groco seacock, which is screwed into a Glassed-in, resin-saturated plywood block. For more info and photos, please see the "New Fangled Seacocks" thread. The new port cockpit-drain seacock is now aft of the sink drain seacock. IT does seem to work well, and now I can keep the sink drain seacock closed unless I wish to use the sink.

[bill@ariel231]

Jerry,

a couple answers:

"With a conventional Bronze seacock you have a thru hull mushroom fitting that goes thru the hull and screws up into the seacock. I do not seem to find any similar fittings (the thru-hull part) to go with the Marelon seacocks. So how is that handled?”

The parts are similar….
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...7124&id=102033
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...ose+Connectors
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...anged+Seacocks

“With Marelon seacocks you still bolt thru the hull. Are these bolts Bronze or stainless or???? And do you typically use a carriage bolt or a countersunk head with screwdriver slot or?????”

I used stainless flat head machine screws for A-231 (other have used bronze).

"When it comes to the blocking inside the hull can I simply use some of the 3/8 thick fiberglass panels I have here and set the block in a bed of thickened epoxy to get the flat surface for the seacock to sit on? Or is there a better way?"

G-10 or equivalent is a good choice… I used plywood sealed with epoxy.

For an orderly install, the key is to assemble the parts dry (without 3m-5200) in order to cut the bolts and thru-hull to length. You will also need to locate or fabricate a wrench for the thru-hull. This can be a dedicated thru-hull wrench (a t-handled device to grab the lugs in the thru hull) or a pry bar that just catches the lugs.

good luck
bill@ariel231

ps. scott's thread "New Fangled Seacocks" is a good example for install of bronze seacocks, the technique also applies to marelon.

[ebb]

Jerry, 'Bill's advice is all good.

Naturally, ebb takes a few exceptions and cautions.
Marelon thru-hulls are online at the Forespar web site for you to get an idea of what they offer.

Good 'first' catalog to have at hand is the Defender catalog, hard copy or www.defender.com
Their prices are generally better than West Marine, sometimes a whole lot better. They are an independent company and I believe the oldest in North America. They are good guys.
Marelon is a Forespar name for THEIR reinforced nylon thru-hulls, valves and tail pipes. If it says Marelon and you get the sizes correct the parts will fit perfectly.

When you go to the 'New Fangled Hoses...' thread you'll read, if you can get through it, my take on Marelon thru-hulls. The 1 1/2" has the interior nubs used for screwing the fitting into the seacock at the wrong end of the tube. Bronze thru-hulls have the nubs just inside the head.
It's easy enough to cut a 1/8" plate to the diameter of the thru-hull. The treads are straight and should be no problem to turn and seat the thru-hull into the seacock and flush with the hull.

With Marelon seacock bolting through the hull you can use 316 stainless. 304 and 18-8 is NOT marine grade stainless. [Another reason why Jamestown sucks.]
I believe it is better not to have any stainless under water.
For about the same price for six 316 machine screws(bolts) you can use silicone bronze
which is essentially inert in salt water.

The spread of the three bolts is wide enough together with the thru-hull hole and the backing plate to be plenty strong and safe enough to use. These bolts through the hull into the flange of the seacock gives you the ultimate installation - there is no better way to insure that your hole in the water is protected.
You can - like the mushroom thru-hull - have the bolt heads 'showing' by using carriage bolts. However, as I detailed in the Marelon install post you can disappear the bumps by using flat head bolts and chamfer the holes - easy. But you can't do it in a thin hull. I imagine later prep of the hull for bottom paint might be easier with out bumps,

You can thicken the hull (which is what you are doing by having a backing block) with fiberglass backing. It is imco preferred. However, having some 3/8" fiberglass panel sitting around is highly unlikely. So, I would make sure that the plate IS fiberglass - you can see the reinforcement on a fresh cut edge. If it is Starboard I wouldn't use it. It is unlikely that a composite could be used either.
Use only marine plywood soaked in epoxy if you want to use wood. My choice is a Philippine mahogany, phenolic glue, thin veneer, BS1088 certified ply. It's called Meranti, and I've talked a bit about it here. About the same price as Exterior AB fir ply and far superior. Real polyester fiberglass sheet would be better.
American "marine plywood" is a joke.

As you see in Scott's installation on 'New Fangled....' the backing under the seacocks is pretty thick. So you could use the 3/8" glass plate to thicken the HULL and build up the thickness of the backing with ply. I did a version of that.


I haven't seen Scott's very nice seacock install first hand, but take exception to the small pillar the sink seacock sits on.
If you are doing the install this way, which is the correct way except for the diameter of the backing, and your sink wants its drain close to the cockpit drain - I would consider making a doublewide backing plate for both seacocks to share. With satisfactory hull reinforcement using epoxy and fabric and a build-up of backing in epoxy soaked phenolic ply you'd have no problem with 'too many holes close together.' Even countersinking the through bolts.

Get your thru-hull perpendicular to the surface you mount the seacock on. Use the big nut that comes with the thru-hull to snug the thru-hull
perfectly in its hole. Custom the backing to make it right angle to the threads. Take the thru-hull out, layer it up, and glue it up. Redrill the hole for the thru-hull, Assemble the seacock dry to locate the thru-bolts - dis-assemble, drill, chamfer or counterbore, cut bronze bolts to the length needed, and finally put it together. Bed in tape butyl.
I felt I had to build-up the backing for the Marelon seacock so that I didn't have to shorten the thruhull. The Marelon thru-hull screws into the seacock with internal nubs at the seacock end. The seacock itself is, of course, waterproof. Thru-hull can be unscrewed and the hole will still be water proof. This makes the thru-hull a 'liner'. If you screw it in lightly moistened with Lanocote and just a little butyl around the head, that makes the whole shebang easily removable, replacable - any time any place.
Do a full conservative repair of the old Pearson holes, You'll partially be drilling new holes through your repair.
Lot-o-luck!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
Jamestown seems to be over-pricing some of their stuff these days. I've used Jamestown for bronze fastenings for decades.
But recently I've ordered bronze bolts and wood screws from TopNotch Fasteners, they have a better range. and more reasonable prices.
tnfasteners.com

[Commander 147]

Bill the Defender link was the link I needed for the thru-hull. I was not finding those parts on the Jamestown site and still find it curious that they do not have them.

ebb, I do have a copy of the Defender catalog (I'm a catalog junkie and have file cabinets filled with them) and after Bill's link I found the parts there as well.

Scott reading your thread is also very helpful.

The fiberglass panels I have I bought from McMaster Carr and they are just 3/8" thick FRP made with polyester resin and glass this is the material.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#fiberglass-sheets/=8cg07r

Which based on your responses will work good for a base under the seacock.

The question that I came up with after your responses was this. The nut shown on the thru-hull I assume is discarded when I mount the seacock because the thru-hull screws directly into the seacock. Is that correct?

You know I had a friend come over last Saturday and help me with some epoxy work. He found it funny When I told him that it would take me longer to do the refit on Destiny Than it took my wife and I to physically build the 3000S.F. house we live in. But building a house is a cake walk compared to the complexity of restoring a sailboat like this. Sure is a good thing this forum exists to make this job even feasible for me with all your help.

[ebb]

Hey Jerry,
It's just the apps that's different.....and maybe a little experience with new material.

I used some red 'electrical grade' polyester frp from McMCarr - both angle and sheet.

Be sure you remove manufacturing residue from the sheet, I did a small delam test when I did not clean with a solvent. Wasn't a good bond. I guess acetone is traditional solvent with polyester. Use 36 grit or similar to get tooth after cleaning.

The bulkhead nut , as I call it, that comes with the thru-hull fitting IS a discard when the thru-hull is used in a flanged seacock.

But when you are dry fitting, you can use the nut on the thru-hull to tighten up on your back blocking to see if you got the backing square to the inside glue up.
You have the thru-hull jammed tight in its hole form outside, with a batten off the ground.

If you are real paranoid about this stuff like I am, you can position the first layer of the inside backing, glass an/or ply, and get that square.
Wrap Seran Wrap on this first piece of the stack, which has a thru-hole sized hole in it where you want it. Tape it around the rim on top.
Cut an X in the middle for the thru hull to come inside without tearing it too much.
Have some thickened epoxy and put a dab under three corners (between the plastic wrapped piece and the prepared hull
then lightly, lightly, turn the big nut til things seem square. Maybe wood shims will help. They also can have their tips covered in Seran wrap
Let it go off. The wrap will pull off and the piece won't have epoxy on it.
Fill in this first gap between the little feet after final dry fit.
Or of course if you are happy with the fit you can glue this in now. It might give you a good fix on the sawsall hole you have to drill through the rest of the stack, Or the remaining block if it is a single piece.
Then stack layers dry until your thru-hull fits in the seacock the way you want it.
I did the thru-hull hole after the stack was glued in. I had the hole in the hull and it was relatively easy to judge how good my hole was by keeping the white bell of the blade even all round as it got buried. The sawsall hole left a little wiggle room for the thru-hull.

Naturally, do the thru-hull first, get the stack glued in. And dry fit the seacock.
There's no room in the bilge for a seacock, let alone three of them.
I spent time making sure the on/off lever was placed so it was intuitive to use.
If it's easy you'll exercise the valve like they say to.
By measure make sure the thru-hull does NOT bottom out in the seacock. (You'll have to cut it.)
Dry fit the thru-hull to position the seacock exactly, screw it in, get the assembly tight.
Then drill the flange bolt holes from inside. You'll have to remove the seacock so mark the holes to be drilled exactly.
You can judge right angle squareness from the flat and get the flange bolt holes coming through the hull with a pretty geometrical spread. Use a jig of some sort to aim the bit, small square right angle blocks. This does not require the ability to screw one large fitting with many tight threads into another. These bolts are going to be OK with a little fudge, just as long you DON"T aim them at the big hole.
Dry assemble the whole assembly. screw the valve onto the thru-hull first, make it happy in the hole
See if you did good with the bolts, hopefully you won't have to fiddle with them.
Tony G wants to lag the seacock on its hill of blocking. lots of meat, they should hold good.
But that means without through bolts the stack depends entirely on glue to hold everything together. The thru-hull screwed into the valve will be in the position of holding the valve assembly. Dunknow, I like the idea of clamping the whole lot right to the hull!

[Commander 147]

ebb

Very useful information thank you very much. The specifics of the job is what I was after when I started this post.

Scott

I have been reading your thread on the seacocks and what a wealth of information you have provided. I know your research is appreciated by others and I want to let you know that I appreciate it also. Thanks

[c_amos]

Faith is approaching another haul out.

I have been toying with another (crazy) idea....

I want to divorce the sink drain from the cockpit drains (not too crazy). Would use the current 1.5" drain in it's current position.

The crazy part is that I want to locate the cockpit drain discharges just above the waterline.

I was thinking I would place a 45 on the bottom of the cockpit drain tubes, and cross the lines from (port to stbd through hull and vice versa)....

Since the discharge would be above the water line, I would eliminate the seacocks (since the boat did not have them originally)... and when she is floting on her lines there would be 2 less holes below the waterline.

Yes, I know that there will be streaks on the hull where the water flows down.... but I would just have the bottom paint for 3"-4" along the boot stripe.... seems like a small price to pay for another level of water tight integrity....

Crossing the drains would grant a greater margin of protection against water ingress when sailing.... AND would make sure she would self right on a rising tide.... (not that I would know ANYTHING about that... )




What say the peanut gallery?

[mbd]

How about a sump for the sink? Then rig up a Y-valve to your manual bilge pump plumbing for emptying. No more holes anywhere.