Re-bedding Hardware

[commanderpete]

Its not the perils of the sea that kills these boats. Its deck core rot.

Even serious deck rot may not make the boat unseaworthy, only unmarketable. The boat sits unsold and rots away. Sometimes a savior comes along. But, more often than not, the boat goes to the wrecker.

Of course every boat this old will have some rot somewhere. The trick is to find and arrest the problem before radical surgery is required.

A dripping screw or rusted nut is a sure sign of a leak. If you wait until the deck gets mushy, the damage is already done.

I decided to rebed much of my deck hardware. I removed the fittings and screws and put them in individual ziplock bags with labels. Then I took one of each and taped them to a piece of cardboard, noting the location, size and number.

[commanderpete]

I used a bent nail to rout out the balsa core at each hole. Then I cleaned up the inside of the hole with a dental pick. I taped the bottom of the holes and injected thinned epoxy into the holes with a syringe. After that drained and dried, I injected epoxy thickened with silica into the holes.

Then it came time to try and locate all the different fasteners. You end up with a bewildering array of machine and wood screws of different sizes and lengths. Different sizes of flat and finish washers, hex nuts, lock nuts, cap nuts etc. Some of the sizes are unusual and hard to find.

[commanderpete]

That's most of them. I'm still scrambling around trying to find some, and ordering the ones I forgot to buy.

You could re-use the old screws, but I don't reccommend it. When you remove a screw, you strip it to one degree or another. The threads of the screws are all gunked up too. If you put it back in, the next time you try to remove it you may have a problem. A stripped and frozen screw is a nightmare, causing bloody knuckles and much cursing.

To bed the fittings, I clean up the bottom first. Then drill out holes through the epoxy plugs in the deck. Smear some sealant on the bottom of the fittings. I also goober up the threads of the screws with sealant. Tighten up the fittings until the sealant just starts to squeeze out at the base. Wait a day. Then hold a screwdriver at the top of the screw and tighten the nut from the bottom. (You dont want the screw to turn and break the seal). This should create a watertight gasket.

Care must be taken to do it right, or you can turn a dry hole into a leaky one.

Well, that's what I've been doing. Not a glamorous job. The boat looks the same when you finished as when you started. But, I think its an ounce of prevention well spent.

[commanderpete]

I've never read anything on the subject, but I think it takes a long time for water to migrate through end grain balsa.

Here is an illustration I found on bedding hardware. Wood is not the preferred choice for a backing plate, but its better than nothing. On high load locations, you can't just use fender washers. The underside of the deck will get crushed and deformed.

[S.Airing]

Commanderpete,take a break and have a piece of chicken and a beer.Your stressing me out.

[S.Airing]

Commanderpete,when I redid Sirocco way back when ,I replaced all fasteners from flat tip to philips head .Must of cost me 500.00 bucks. Just wait untill you replace the turnbuckels,they arent cheap.

[commanderpete]

It can add up. You can't buy in bulk because you only need between 2 and 24 of each screw. You want to buy extras, although you're trying to keep the cost down.

My new bronze chainplate bolts were $ 4 each.

For the teak and mahogany trim, I went for the silicon bronze wood screws with slotted heads. I think it looks better. Pricey though.

Everything else was stainless phillips.

Jamestown Distributors had the largest selection

[Dave]

I just finished this odious job -- did as Pete described. I hate leaks! I hate soggy core! But the work has been worth it for the peace of mind.
Add to Pete's comments the fact that the undercut resin plug creates (in my case) a 1 and 1/2 inch solid, thickened resin plug that helps avoid gelcoat cracking when you tighten the fasteners. Nothing's bullet-proof, but this is as close as it gets.

[Theis]

You guys missed the best part of it. Think of the pleasure of falling asleep on the main cabin bunk after one final brandy as a night cap. It was a beautiful night after a beautiful sail and you are really ready to call it a day moments before the new day begins.

You waken to the gentle pitter pat of a gentle friendly rain on the cabin top and wet pajamas about your middle area. Gropping around in the dark for a flashlight, your patience and plesant disposition long gone, you find that one of the cabin hand rails, or a cam cleat or a window is drip, drip, dripping without any let up. In exasperation, you take your scrub bucket out and put it in your lap as you go to sleep to the gentle pitter pat of the raindrops hitting the bucket gently nested where you wish there could have been a dry blanket.

Isn't sailing fun? But let's get down to where the rubber hits the foad - the caulking. Do not use polyeurothane (5200) for calking. Use sulfate (3M 101 or its Boatlife equivalent) and Silicone for the windows. You goof up there and that pleasant night described above, or worse, could be coming your way. Good luck.

[Dave]

Here's my experience with caulking and bedding compounds:
I've use LifeCaulk (Boat Life) a lot. What I don't like about it is that it discolors very easily on a painted deck -- turns really nasty colors. The label says that it's paintable; maybe there is something that dries on and adheres to the stuff, but I haven't found it. Boat Life has never responded to phone calls and emails asking WHAT paint works with LifeCaulk.
So, I use it less often.
For bedding, I put the hardware in place, outline it with pencil, mask off the pencil line, put 4200 on the deck surface, a dab or two under the head of each fastener, have someone hold the head in place to preserve the seal (as Pete mentioned), and tighten it. 4200 doesn't have the same flexibilty as LifeCaulk, so I don't worry about letting the stuff stiffen up before the final bolt tightening.
I'm banking on the fact the 4200 isn't as adhesive as 5200 -- that when the day comes, I won't have to remove the boat from the hardware.
For caulking -- well, I feel stuck. Silicone is fine for windows, but the stuff is weird about when and where it chooses to stick and unstick; LifeCaulk won't paint, but will discolor; 4200 is too permanent and downright messy to work with -- but I think it's my new best friend.

[Theis]

I've had good luck with 3M 101 Sulfite (formerly Thiokol). It is easy, but messy, to take off before it dries (use turpentine/mineral spirits), and not difficult to rub off places where it is not meant to be when dry.

The problem I have with Boatlife products is that they are combination products and I really don't know what I am putting on.

As for the 5200 polyurethane products, they do take the gel coat off when hardware is removed or replaced - first hand experience. The Silicone products can not be painted over, and, I am told, where it has dripped, even if cleaned off, still can not be painted over. Bad news. However, if you mask off the area, silicone might be the answer. It is very waterproof, cheap, and pulls off easily when replacing fittings or resetting them (However, you can not put a second coat on). Otherwise, I would suggest you try the 3M products (I do not own stock in the company or work for them).

The problems you reference may be because Boatlife products are combinations - so, for example, you have the problems with silicone and sulfite- or with silicone and polyurethane (whatever the mixtures are). I don't know.

[Mike Goodwin]

There is a product that releases 5200 or Sikaflex , I have not used it but know people who have .
They say it works . West Marine and BoatersWorld carry it .
I use a polyurethane product made by OSI / PL , called Pl Premium Concrete and Masonry sealer/adhesive . It is about 1/3 the cost of 5200 or Sika and seems to do just as good a job . I've been using it for about 4 years now & you can buy it at Home Dumpo .
The other product in the photo is like Liquid Nails , but works and is 10 times stronger .

[commanderpete]

I wonder if someone makes a cheaper polysulfide.

Dave, can you tell us about the oversized hole method? Its probably a more sure technique.

I injected the thickened epoxy into the existing holes. But, you can't really tell how far the epoxy penetrates into the cavity where the balsa was.

When I drilled through the plugs to fit the screws, a few of the plugs had gaps and needed another injection.

As for sealant, I've tried a little of everything for different applications. Life Caulk in white, brown and liquid varieties. Silkafex, West Multi-caulk, silicone and 4200.

To keep all the various sealants organized, I purchased a handy sealant dispenser pack (pictured below). The dispenser pack was kind of expensive, but it came with six free beers.

[commanderpete]

In the foreground is the wrench I use the most. His name is "Junior."

I was using the large tubes of sealant. But, except for the rubrails, I wasn't using that much. I ended up letting alot of it go bad in the tube. Its also a little messier with the caulk gun.

Of course, if you squeeze the small tubes too hard, the tube explodes out the back and into your hand.

Any way you look at it, its a messy job. How this stuff ends up on the bottom of my shoe, I'll never know.

[Mike Goodwin]

Pete,

I drill 5/8" holes, fill with epoxy, then drill a 1/4" hole in the middle of that .