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Thread: Headsails

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821

    Question Headsails

    What is the biggest genny anyone flies on an Ariel or Commander?
    Anyone gone with a 180 or 200?
    How about chutes?
    I don't care about class racing rules, I'm thinking more nitro dragster .

  2. #2
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    Sep 2001
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    Orinda, California
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    Big Sail - Big Mistake

    A cautionary tale about BIG headsails and the wind.

    The race began about 1:00 PM and as the afternoon progressed, the wind began picking up. Although we seemed to be sailing ok, we kept falling behind the fleet. Finally, we dragged across the finish line pretty close to last. To emphasize our condition, a few moments before we crossed the line we met the committee boat picking up the last of the marks! This finish was as bad as the one we had at our first outing last year when the genoa track was improperly placed.

    Watching the boats we usually stay ahead of begin sailing away from us, I kept wondering what we were doing wrong. Our sail trim appeared to be the same as before and we were pointing well, but we were just not moving. Maybe I should have had the bottom scrubbed?

    At the post race gathering, we learned why we were so slow. The old "Bay Fox," Ernie Rideout, said that we were falling behind because we were "overpowered." We should have taken down the 155% genoa and used the working jib. Pathfinder (Ernie’s boat) went with their 120% genoa and Cat Walk, the other Ariel, used a working jib. And they both walked away from us.

    I'm not sure about the wind range for head sails, but it sure appears that in anything over 12 to 15 knots and you should not be using a 150. I assume a 120 will cover the 12 to 18 knot range (but I may be on the high side, Ed probably has a better estimate). If the wind is under 9 knots, maybe you could "effectively" use a larger headsail.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
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    724

    Question Less is more.....?

    Ted Brewer is in Good Old Boat this month, with his 'Thoughts on sail plans'.

    He is mainly advocating the 3/4 rig, but one of his points is that the CCA rule drove boats of our vintage to carry a higher ratio of headsail to main, and that this was a less efficient sail plan. The evidence he cites is the 5.5m class in the 60's where he says the rules were different and all boats eventually '"flew the minimum-size jib and maximum headsail as any other distribution of sail area resulted in a losing boat."

    Kinda makes sense, that the overlap would be less efficient.

    I wonder if a partially furled 155 could ever be faster then an unfurled 155?
    Last edited by c_amos; 03-03-2005 at 05:51 PM. Reason: edited to cause to be less unclear(er) :)

  4. #4
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    Sep 2001
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    Hampton Roads Va.
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    In the summer , where I sail , we seldom see more than 9knots of wind .
    I do a lot of beam reaching in 7 to 8kts for 10 miles then turn around and reach back . I borrowed a 175 and flew it in 7 knots and by the GPS I was doing nearly 6knots. With the class genny I was doing only 4 at best.
    I'm sure I couldn't carry it to weather in a breeze and don't want to try, but it was fun in light air.
    The guys I race with , we make lots of headsail changes and have a shelf full of silver . We fly a 190 on the C&C 40 .

  5. #5
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    Sep 2001
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    Northern MN
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    Mike, have you given any thought to an asymetrical spinaker? Even though they are usually mentioned in conjunction with a bow sprit they work with just a simple tack I hear. Hood has their version called an MPG (multi-purpose genoa) that I've been eyeballing.

    Bill, it's funny you should have that story to contribute. A while back I was talking with the sailmaker about headsails for 113. At that time I was leaning toward a 150 because I 'wanted the most bang for the buck'. After getting some information about our local weather and looking up info on Pearson Ariels, the sail maker, let's call him Joe, suggested a 130%. His reasoning was, if over powered with a 150 you can only put about five turns on the furler before you start to lose too much shape and then you're just over powered and going too slow on your ear. For less wind than the 130 could be flown use a MPG. At first I thought, 'yeah, just another way to clean out the bank account', but the more I read I think he really was telling the truth. He couldn't talk me out of thefull batten loose footed main though

    A 170 must be close to a asymetrical spinaker!

  6. #6
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    upstate N.Y>
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    14

    head sail

    you have to ask yourself at any time what you are doing.Racing ,Cruising ,anchoring ,etc.Our favorite sail on board is the "120".It is the best sail on board .Not too much or to little but there .I like the 150 but we always dump it eventually for the best sail, it just points better on the Ariel, the 120. Destination is the goal . Getting there is the equation................
    Last edited by Gerry Walsh; 03-03-2005 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #7
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    Sep 2001
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    Hampton Roads Va.
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    Big Genny

    I have a used, very big, light weight sail for a much larger boat .
    I'm going to have it cut down to a large light air reacher for the Ariel and just haven't decided on how big. I'm thinking 180 to 200 .
    I can get it cut down for a fraction of the price of a new genny or a MPG.
    If I was going to spend any major bucks on sails, it would be a new main .
    Right now I have an old main, and the 2 class sails and no more . I don't plan on racing the old gal other than a few novelty/charity races , just want to go faster in light air.
    A lot of these old design boats react well to reefing the main and sailing on with a bigger genny. They dont round up overpowered that way or if they do , put in another reef . Used to race an old Bill Tripp design that way and we have trophies to prove the point.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Portsmouth, Virginia
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    What do you all mean by 120, 150% etc. As a kid in sea explorer scouts we had a working jib, a storm jib that was not much bigger than a peacoat and a genoa. Does anyone have any imformation on the HOYT jib boom, I've been told by someone at the yard that it increases the efficiency of the head sail; although, the person who told me that, I never have seen him take his boat out in two years.

  9. #9
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    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    how to sheet the head sails

    Could someone expound on sheeting the 120 and 150? Do you run 'em outside on a reach/run, and re-route them inside when close hauled? Only thing i can see to do, but sure a pain in the, well, you know. I'd sure like to go sailing with someone who knew something! I run the sheets back to the genoa track, just ahead of the winches with the 120 and 150,and outside the shrouds,and use the fwd. inside deck track for the 100, inside the shrouds. Seems to work ok.

    Those pesky lower fwd. shrouds sure are a pain. And while i'm on that subject, i've seen those roller thingy's on some boats--(somewhere--not at my marina, as i'm all alone,) that go on the shrouds to keep the sail from chaffing on them. Anyone know of a cheap easy method or material for that purpose? I saw something advertized in a cruising mag. called 'baggy wrinkles' i think.... do they work? Just wondering what others do. I know my bowlines in the clew always hang up, have to do something about that, as the jib handler always wants to yank on things ya know. Have to remind myself not to yell!
    wet willieave maria

  10. #10
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    The 120%, 150%, etc., refer to the percentage of the fore triangle - approximately the area from the mast base to the bow and up to the mast head. Headsails are sized by percentages of that triangle.

    For anything but the 110% working jib, all sheets go outside all the shrouds to the winches. For the 110, the sheets go outside the forward shourds and inside the other two.

    The Pearson factory genoa track is placed too far aft for good sail shape with low clew genoas. Location for the 150's turning block is near the after end of the aft large window. The block for the 120 is closer to the aft shroud. Both tracks should be next to the toe rail. The factory jib track is usually too far aft and too close to the house.

  11. #11
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    Willie, you could try tying the bowlines so that the tail is on the outside and the smoother part of the knot passes over the shroud.

    I've also seen some people use PVC pipe on the foward shroud as a roller.

    What I did is use one single long line with a simple knot at the grommet. Loop the line in the middle. Push the loop through the grommet. Pull the ends of the line through the loop. That's it. Works well.

    Mike, what name are you going to give the sail? Maybe "The Whomper"
    Attached Images  

  12. #12
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    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    Peter, thanks, that's too simple! And nice photo.
    I did some digging around, i see some ash shroud rollers, and some pvc ones for about $55. Think i could make some for about 1/10 of that!

    Going sailing. Supposed to be about 70 degrees, a bit of west wind. I'm outta here!!
    wet willieave maria

  13. #13
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
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    190
    Mike, A comment to your original question about sails larger than 150. For a number of years the #75 Ariel raced with a 180 jib. We would carry a 155. What we found was that if there was a long weather leg we would often climb to weather on him gaining distance. We would not see much difference in speed. Where the 75 would eat us up was on a reach that was too tight for a spinnaker. The skipper on the 75 would move the fair lead forward to close off the top of his jib and would go reaching right by us. I would guess he would carry at least an extra .5 – 1 knot of speed on a reach with that 180. Our goal was always try to climb to weather by pointing close hauled and wait and see how long we might be able to hold him off.

    One point if anyone out there is a racer and wants to use a sail larger than 155%. Most governing bodies will ding you 3 – 6 seconds a mile on your rating for using a jib larger the 155% .

  14. #14
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    Headsail Track Location

    Here is the track location for the 155% on #76. The block is placed where the sail on our boat seems to perform best.
    Attached Images  

  15. #15
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    Headsail Track Location

    And, here is the location of the track for the 110% jib. We seem to use just the aftermost three holes -- go aft as the wind builds.
    Attached Images  

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