The album of Ariel #422

[ebb]

AH HAH! Heat's ON!
This is Kurt's page, so we'll let him respond to Keith's views, most of which I agree to, viz 338, another cruiser in the making.

But not Point 4. Feel very strongly that the boat is essentially a spaceship. If something happens to it in the Indian Ocean, say, and it fills with water and it doesn't sink, there are still more life saving resources if you stay with it than on a liferaft. A liferaft supposes RESCUE. That may not be the correct assumption.

Thinking about making an Ariel unsinkable is a good exercise. I personally would not give up an inch of volume to foam fill except for a 1/2" of ensolite on the whole upper part of the hull for insulation. I think svATOM (Baldwin) has the right idea in making lockers and stowage space 'water-resistant'. I would not use or trust any foaminplace urethane. (There is an out-gassing issue and it is NOT closed cell.)

Nothing can be said about being totally smashed to smithereens, we better have some sort of alternative aboard. But total disaster may cancel out any one of those: liferaft, dinghy, pfd.
How long would you live in an emersion suit anyway? Better to think about making the boat unsinkable and repairable.

Let's explore the ways....
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Kurt, how you figure 60 cu ft? When you multiply 60 times 64 (wt cu ft water) the total is 3840# displaced.) Will that float the boat?

[mbd]

RE: Kieth's #7 above: My Old Man and the Sea - good read.

[CapnK]

This isn't "Heat", this is just Discussion! And I am glad for it, it helps me crystallize my thinking and in some cases gives me new food for thought.

------------------------------------Answers-------------------------

1. It will be a huge PIA to put foam in those places, especially sheet foam.

Not really! I already have access to the hull from basically everywhere, and am putting in the first layer today.

2. It will be expensive to put in that pour in place stuff.

If I use this stuff, it will only be in small areas between sheet foam edges. As it is open cell, if I use it it will only be in areas which will be glassed over so that no water can get in (and stay in).

3. It is unlikely that an Ariel will get holed in such a way that you will want to stay on the boat.
3.a. If you already sealed off the anchor locker, that is going to be your most bang-for-your-buck. That is the most vulnerable part, the front. That is the part that runs into things like containers, other boats, bouys, etc.

I realize that there isn't much out there which will actually 'punch a hole' in an Ariel hull. Maybe if you just happened to strike the corner of a floating shipping container at the right angle, that would do it. But how water gets in won't really matter too much, if it is getting in. That's what the +flotation is for: Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Agreed about the anchor locker/stem, but in the frame of the just quoted philosophy, I am paying particular attention to any part of the hull which when moved through the water would be diverting it away from flowing straight back (or: any part of the hull viewable when you stand in front of the boat). Also I keep in mind that it is rare for an Ariel to sail unheeled, and so areas above the at-rest waterline are probably just as likely to take an impact as those below it.

4. Even if it does float after getting holed, why do you want to save the hull? (combined with)
5. A good 3-person life-raft is probably cheaper and less frustrating than any floatation-addition-project.

The idea is that the boat will be it's own liferaft, floating with *some* freeboard, even if only 8-10". If it can do that, then it can be fixed enough to be bailed out and used to gain the safety of land for further repair.
Electronics etc in a survival situation are not usually _needed_, so theoretically as long as I am alive and have the basics, and a way to get back to shore, I am much better off than if I were floating around in a rubber raft with a small bag of 'survival tools', hoping that someone finds me before too much time passes. I will have basic electronics (VHF, GPS, flashlights, etc) in handheld waterproof versions which can take exposure to water. I will not have an EPIRB, because I believe this: since I am the person who is taking the risk to go to sea, I don't want anyone to risk their life to try and save mine. I have no children, noone besides myself who is dependent upon me; rescuers likely do. So I assume the mantle of responsibility now, before ever leaving shore, to see that I am "self insured" when it comes to my own survival. Of course, YMMV, and that is up to you, just as this decision is up to me.
Most everything will be stowed in top-loaded watertight lockers inside the boat, with the exception of what I (prior to setting out) decide is necessary to repair a hole in the hull, a "fix it" kit. Should the worst happen, I would try to fix it, and then bail the boat out. I will have at least one HIGH capacity manual bilge pump onboard. After bailing, a large part of what was in those lockers will hopefully be fine. If not, then I will still have more stuff to "MacGyver" with.
I think that positive flotation is also probably *much* cheaper - materials will total less than US$500, and time would be spent refitting the boat anyway, even if I weren't going the +float route. That said, this isn't about saving money, it's about what I think is the best way for me to continue sailing as long as possible, even if I encounter the worst situation imaginable for a sailor.

6. In a small boat, the space taken by the foam is going to be "expensive" in terms of usability. Better to install the air-bag-floatation things. They stay small until called upon.

I am a minimalist when it comes to "things", and so require less storage space than if I were otherwise. (Except maybe for books, but they float, and can be dried out - lol). Also, I have learned from backpacking and kayaking - sports which have much in common with cruising and living aboard a small boat - that before setting out, you will wind up "needing" as much stuff as you have space for, yet once on the road, you find that much that was "needed" goes unused. Compared to my backpacks (1.15-3.76 cu/ft) or my kayak (5.78 cu/ft), the Ariel carries a ton of stuff. I actually revel in the "large" space for stuff I have on my Ariel! I am not 'normal' in this, and people are as a rule somewhat amazed that I feel this way, especially when they come aboard. But I have a place to sleep, sit, cook, and stand, and it's all out of the rain, with no setup needed - and that is almost luxurious to me. Sure, she'll be loaded down when I leave for long passages, but mostly with food and water.
As far as float bags - I did do some serious thinking about them, and checked out all the products I could find on the market to see what they offered, but eventually came to the conclusion that tanks and tubes and bags can all leak, can all fail at what they are intended to do. Foam cannot - it just sits there, holding air all the time. I like that simplicity, and in the context of what I am doing, it makes more sense.

7.Do many other long-distance ocean voyagers do this mod?

I am not aware of any statistics about that, though I would assume that most don't. Most probably rely on liferafts (or dinghies which can serve as one, but that is a much smaller number), as that way is, as you said, much easier, involving less thought and construction. My objections to depending on a liferaft are already stated here, my boat is too small to stow a liferaft-capable dinghy on deck (besides which, I want my decks clear), and I don't want to have to deal with keeping a dinghy-in-tow during a storm.
I do know these things: just a few days ago I was aboard a 52' aluminum sloop, hull/deck made in France, fitted out by the 4X-transAtlantic owner in Canada, and he'd made it to have positive flotation, so there may be more of them than is reported, too.
My friend Neal Peterson, 2x OSTAR and 2x BOC racer who has rounded all the Capes, knows and approves of what I am trying to do. He's been in situations where his boat was about to sink, or would have, had he not acted quickly and properly. He hand-pumped his boat 20 minutes of every hour around the clock 2/3 or so of the way across the Atlantic after being hit by a Russian freighter. He understands what I am trying to do, and it is stories like his among others which are part of the reason I am doing it this way.
There is a European company named "Etap" which builds well-regarded boats that have positive flotation from the factory. I am sure that it is much more expensive to construct a boat that way, a cost which would have to be passed on to the buyer, and I would bet that price alone is *the* significant factor in why fewer boats are made this way.

---not raining on your parade, just giving you something to think about, and maybe save you some time so you can get to making passages sooner.---

I don't think that at all! I appreciate your taking the time to discuss it with me.

[mrgnstrn]

RE: Kieth's #7 above: My Old Man and the Sea - good read.

Yes, that was it. Thanks for keeping me honest.

[CapnK]

Kurt, how you figure 60 cu ft? When you multiply 60 times 64 (wt cu ft water) the total is 3840# displaced.) Will that float the boat?

Ebb -

60-65 cu/ft is what I am going for in the amount of foam alone.

Jim Baldwin is an extremely thorough person, one who I admire for many reasons. If you read his "IN SEARCH OF THE UNSINKABLE BOAT" article, his figures come out to ~.89 cu/ft of foam per 100 lbs displacement to keep his boat floating with decks awash. Add 10% to that (for ease, and safety, and perhaps differences in the amounts of materials which make up an Ariel vs a Triton), and you have 1 cu/ft per 100 lbs displacement. Thus, my ballpark figure of 60-65 cu/ft for an Ariel loaded with 1,000-1,500 lbs of stores and gear. I will also test this*.

Like Jim (and I have discussed this with him on the phone), I will have watertight lockers which will provide the additional flotation needed to keep the decks from being awash, ideally to actually float them slightly above the surface. The lockers will also serve to keep water from flooding into the boats interior, since they will directly cover probably well over 75% of the area of the hull which can be holed. They will serve as small sealed crash bulkheads, water which gets past the hull and enters them will be able to go no farther, or, if it does, at a vastly reduced rate of flow.

The way I am building in the interior of the boat also makes it so that any water which does get inside will be confined to a small narrow space until it is 3' deep or so. This will keep it from sloshing side to side, making the boat roll-y. With an interior which makes any water very noticeable and confines it to a large degree, and a high capacity bilge pump to get it out, I should be able to deal with all but total, unstoppable calamity.

If that happens, well, it must just be "My Time To Go", and there isn't much I can do about *that*.

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*Once I get it all built in, I will sink my boat.



Yes, you read that right. Out in the Bay, on a calm summer day and over a shallow sandbar, with a *very* high capacity pump to do both the filling and the emptying, I am going to see with my own eyes if and how she rides when full of water. That will be a fun and interesting day.

I'll measure and double- and triple-check everything beforehand, but if it all seems right, then that's the last logical step. And of course I'll post *those* pictures.

PS - "I agree, "My Old Man and The Sea" was a great book. I read it the summer after my father died. Bummer, that, and it made the tale even more poignant.

[CapnK]

A PPS:

What I am doing isn't all that hard, or crazy even, I don't think. Nor is it impulsive. What I mean is this: Look at the work that pretty much anyone doing a major refit puts into their boat. Since I knew I would be doing the work anyway, it just makes sense to add a little more in, if the benefits could be so great...

Living aboard for 1.75 years so far, while finding my own 'optimal design' for what and where, I have had much time to consider all of this as a supplement to actually trying out the varied and different ideas I have had for the interior arrangement.

It all kind of fits together.

[ebb]

I may need enlightenment.

Believe the .89 figure is not right and could be inverted.

If I have a 6000# boat and I use the 58# reserve bouyancy per 100# I come up with 103 cu ft of foam needed to suspend the boat in water. I would need more than that to float it with the decks awash. And more than that even to have the boat floating high enough to try to repair it.

Maybe the .89 should be 1.11 as a minimum.


I, of course, agree with Baldwin on everything he says.
Open top bulkheads like the one for the head will not float the boat if water goes over them. If that incident where he was holed by a fishingboat had been below the waterline, we might be reading another story.

[CapnK]

Hmm, OK, this is how I understand it:

Take something which weighs 1# out of the water. When you submerge it in water it weighs less, and just how much less is a function of its relative density.

This difference is its "reserve buoyancy".

I am going to do some number-rounding here for ease - since math makes my head hurt.

According to the Skene's chart on Baldwins site, 700#'s of lead (one cubic foot) weighs only 636#'s in the water - a ratio of .908 (or: 636 divided by 700). So the 2300# ballast in an Ariel would weigh 2,088#'s submerged, right?

An empty Ariel displaces 5120#'s of water, so that is it's weight. Subtract that 2300#'s of lead ballast, and that leaves 2,820#'s of miscellaneous other materials, the largest majority of which is fiberglass.

According to Skene's, a cubic foot of fiberglass weighs 96#'s, yet underwater the same cubic foot only weighs 32#'s - exactly 1/3, or .333. Fiberglass is denser than most everything on the boat, so for simplicity's sake lets just say that the whole rest of the boat weight is fiberglass. Underwater this mass of fiberglass would weigh 940#'s (2,820 x .333)

Add the 940 to the 2,088, and you have 3,028#'s, which would be the amount of flotation you would need to provide in order to suspend the boat in the water, just at/below the surface.

Right?

3028 divided by 58 (the flotation of a cubic foot of polyurethane foam, from Skene's) equals 52.206, the amount of cubic feet of foam needed to barely float an empty Ariel.

(~8 more cubic feet of foam (to make it an even 60 cu/ft) would provide for an additional 464#'s of flotation - which is more than 464#'s of stuff, taking into account that that stuff would weigh less in the water...)

Note how close this is to the "1 cu/ft per 100#'s of displacement" guesstimate - neato.

So - Am I figuring this right, even though loosely?

If I am, I will be amazed.

[mbd]

You'll know for sure when you "test sink" your boat!

[CapnK]

You'll know for sure when you "test sink" your boat!

LOL, ain't that the truth.

I put some foam into the boat last night, and found (as usual) that it'll be a learning process. My first attempt was using 1 large piece of foam - approx 18" x 6'4" - up against the hull, in the area under the stringer, down to the level of the original vberth. This taught me that it will be easier to do this with smaller panels - say 2' max dimension. It also taught me to cut the foam outside of the boat, in the daytime - little tiny pieces of foam get *everywhere* when cutting, even with a razor knife. For this "exploratory foaming", I am using 'Cellofoam' brand panels - 3/4" thick EPS, it has a mylar radiant heat barrier on one side, and is only US$10 for a 4'x8' sheet. I'm using 4 sheets to make a first run at the process. This foam will probably all be removed in favor of pink/blue foam for the end product.

I also made a small test panel of my "foamboard plywood" concept (pink foam sheathed with wood) to see how strong that combo is likely to be, and have to say I am *very* pleasantly surprised. I recommend that anybody adding structure into their boat consider this as a light, strong alternative to conventional plywood. I sandwiched the foam using Luaun door skin material - it comes in 1/8"x3'x7' - and it is very light and very stiff. The door skin material can be cut with a razor knife, too, which really cuts down on dust and noise. I think another advantage is that I will be able to use it like and instead of cardboard for laying out the size and shape of the bulkheads inside. Cut the Luaun to the right size, and I have 1 skin which is also the pattern for the other skin as well as the foam core...

I looked at all the adhesives at Lowes and Home Despot trying to find one compatible with the foam. For right now, I don't want a permanent solution, so I eventually went with "Duro All-Purpose Spray Adhesive" which claimed that it would work with foam board. It does, but only if you spray it very lightly and quickly - otherwise some ingredient in the stuff literally eats the foam up. When I put the foam in for good, I am thinking that I will just use 4200, spread with a squeegee/trowel...