Anti-skid coating

[ebb]

Noticed an ad in Good Ole Boat for Durabak. It is a polyurethane rubber coating. Awhile back I got excited about another company - Sanitred - for anti-skid deck. But when my samples came (I had to pay for them - not cheap) I discovered that the product required activators to be mixed in and had time and temp constraints on ap. I think the anti-skid had to be hand cast onto wet surface too. Too much ap paranoia, so I forgot about it.

Web-site says Durabak is rolled on (can be sprayed with a 1/4" tip and thinned 10%) - with no ad-mixing - right out of the can. No primer is necessary, surface needs to be clean, dry, and rough. NO PRIMER. Anti-skid has granules in the product.
2 coat minimum. A coat is approx 1/16", but can be thinned a little with xylene. I would assume that thinning would get it to lay down a bit. So we are not talking about a waterborne coating here. I imagine I would put on two coats first of smooth overall. And one coat of textured in anti-skid pads defined with blue or green tape. Have to check with Durabak how complicated this process is. What exactly is the recoat schedule? That is exactly when can you tape it off? Will I be able to walk or kneel on it? Ap paranoia twinge.

Once opened the whole can needs to be used as it cures by ambient moisture. IE you can't put the lid back on to use it later.* I think it's probable to describe this coating as a cross-over product from the DIY truck bed industry. There is mention of US military use of the stuff. I could find no pictures of sailboat use. Tugs, steel fish boats, utility boats. The product has been around for awile - some of the testimonials are 7 years old. There's money in the pleasure marine market and there are professionals who could michaelangelo any yacht coating.

But there are only a few light colors: white, grey, sand. That may be one reason why we don't hear about this stuff more often. It's only available in gallons for about $130 a pop. At 60ft2 per gal. Plus shipping. They do need to provide quarts (for lightening or darkening), for a coordinated two tone anti-skid yacht deck. Something.

Anybody here think of this rubber stuff as a deck paint? Why not?

*So, once the can is opened, that's it. I'm only assuming that 60 foot square will do the Ariel deck. ??? Got the footage around here somewhere, can't find it. One assumes that a second coat goes on when the former one has set up, yes? That means at least one gallon per coat. Two smooth, one granuled minimum equals $390 plus shipping. Maybe that's why it isn't more common?

The biggest plus for using a rubber polyurethane on a balsa core is absolute waterproofing. Also, mentioned on the site by a user, is that the product produces a non-fatigueing rubberery-ness. Don't know how thick - but a violently heaving surface that has beaucoup traction and give to it is my ideal.
They say that a cosmetic coat can be applied without prep some years down the line. It's more complicated than that on the deck of a sailboat. But the main question is it's durability and UV degrading.

Any thoughts on this type of stuff???

[c_amos]

I do not have any expereince with the coating you posted about. I hope it works out well for you, but I wonder how the rubber would react if some fuel, thinner, or even a strong cocktail were spilled on it?



I have used the paint addiditves made by interlux, and found them to be uneffective. They only slightly slow your sliding off of the deck.... a fact that my dog finds quite frustrating.

The method I have choosen (so far only on the foredeck) with good results is to roll out a thin layer of epoxy on the deck, and then cover that with washed and filtered beach sand..... just as thick as you can get it.

I shake sand on the deck until the epoxy will hold no more, then let it set. The excess is swept off, and a good fresh water wash and scrub later it is painted over.

Holds great, and looks good too. Much cheaper then the fancy 'deck in a bottle' options too.

My thinking on using epoxy for the sand, rather then just mixing it in the paint as has been suggested by others is that the epoxy seems less likely to erode then paint will be.

Let you know how it works out for me in a couple years..

[ebb]

I have no experience with this polyurethane coating.
Whatever actual experience garnered from the googler is of no use.
For Duraback there are thousands of pickup bed liners being BSed about, but really none is able to express themselves or even be experienceably credible.
The Durabak company (and I remember, the Santitred company) develop a kind of HYPE MUSIC in talking about their product. They get into it like a shill with a hook and don't let go! Because the stuff is way over-priced. NONE of it seems to be based on actual applications. There is a paucity of application photos - even those where they are painting concrete intersections or institutional hallways. Their whole sleight of mind is to rig a davit over your checkbook and pluck your bucks, mon.

We may be dealing with a solvent-based company here - in my book they may have lost it due to 'ene chemicals.* Or their product really cannot make the cross over into the reality of the DIY work-a-weekend world. All live experience expressed on the net seems to be reduced to base testosteronic dim boggy wit. Tho I admit when I'm looking for info I have no patience. To be fair, I think Sanitred is water-base. That's good but it's still too picky for a boat yard.

Ah done know, Craig.... Hardass E-poxy and beach sand is the way to go.
It's important WHICH beach you get yer sand from.
Ah ben a lookin for some softer stuff, I figger one day I'll go barefoot til the last breaking wave or the last dead wrong-reckoning, which ever comes first. Looking for soft decks, soft cockpit.
Like Geoff, it's the sand BETWEEN my toes that I ache for.

Polyurethane has a reputation for standing up to chemicals. I've yet to see specifics, altho the manufacturer's BS can get pretty caustic.
Better keep your hydrochloric acid in a safe place along with your dichloromethane. Kidding aside, I think, THINK, that you can spill beer, icecream and gasoline on it without effect.

Any epoxy you use should be coated with something to help preserve it since UV breaks it down. Polyurethane is an excellent choice.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
http://www.cotelind.com/apptips.htm
is 14 pages of 'tips' for simple application of Durabak out of a can. They recommend XYLENE to prep surfaces for coating. Then you read that Metacote might be a good idea to use as a primer on an old frp boat. And here you discover that broadcasting 60 grit SILICONE CARBIDE onto wet Durabak is recommended for wet conditions and extreme slopes, conditions well documented on Ariels and Commanders.

NOWHERE is there a photo accompanied description of a three coat application of the Durabak system to the deck of a sailboat. That could be the answer. It really may be ALL BS
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________-
*xylene/propylene/butudien/benzene/toluene/ethylene

[ebb]

Seek and ye shall find.
Here is a source for much info on this polyurethane barrier product. Not only is everything seemingly laid out it also is a catalog store. Haven't compared prices.
Durabak is a solvent product. The solvent is Xylene. Polyurethanes are hurrying toward 100% solids coatings just like epoxys. 100% solids means no solvents. In the past to my detriment I ignored MSDS's. Now I look! Manufacturers have made MSDS rather uninformative to the casual reader. Might be that goverment requirements are dragonian, tending to make a product seem badder than it is.
To use this product you have to have an organic vapor filter, solvent & chemical resistant gloves (latex, vinyl, nitrile single-use won't work) and plastic eye protection is "required." Whether you do or not, it at least tells you things about the product that a manufacturer may be shy about.

On the Durabak home page, there is no righteous mention that the coating itself is composed in part of a particularly nasty solvent. Another buzz word not used by Durabak to help describe their product is aromatic or aliphatic. Didn't see it. Aliphatic polyurethane chemistry supposedly produces a much superior barrier. We assume that the qualitys tauted infer an aliphatic - which means higher cost chems resulting in outstanding weathering, good chemical resistance, and UV stability in direct sunlight. The distinctions between the two as end-products are blurring.

Exterior UV Durabak 18 comes in qts from this source. (Qts $34. Gals $126) There seem to be fewer light colors. However this site tells you that you can use a certain brand of tints (Reofos) to get a color - and what NOT to use like 'universal tint' - to make your own. Trouble is you have to tint just befor you apply because it acts as an accelerator. Means you'll have to waste some to find the shades you want. One assumes that since the coating has UV inhibitors it will also slow fading of your custom color.

Durabck 18 Smooth is applied with a 3/16" mohair varnish cover. That tells me it must be fairly paint-like. You need to buy (they say) special stipple roller covers from them for the textured stuff. You need a roller that picks up the granules. The coating can be brushed on - but not brushed - must be laid on.

Anybody interested can go for the whole wad themselves.
(google) NewLineSafety.com-MSDS & Data Sheet
https://www.newlinesafety.com/content/view/75/109/

Also available on this site is this attenuated list: Resistance (7-day immersion test) to Sulfuric Acid, Acetic Acid, Hydrochloric Acid, Phosphoric Acid and Sodium Hydroxide: all excellent.
Resistance to gasoline only Fair - (there is xylene in gasoline)
Acetone, Poor -
Diesel, Good -
Water and Salt Water, Excellent.

LET'S SEE A REAL WORLD PHOTO-SERIES ANTI-SKID APPLICATION ON A PLASTIC CLASSIC!
AND WHAT IS DURABAK'S LIFE EXPECTANCY?

[CupOTea]

I was all set to go with Lewmar's Treadmaster for my anti-skid - (very hard to find - had to go straight to Lewmar in CT). Trouble is, its expensive by the sheet and has to be cut to patterns (three step process) and then laid down with their adhesive. They also sell a "rejuvinator" solution, which makes me think it will need rejuvinating. And, what happens when you want to get rid of it?

Then I saw the anti-skid on Periwinkle (Interlux I believe) and the whole process (or lack of it) appealed mightily. Looks good too. Have read poor reviews on this thread, however.

Sand grit embedded in epoxy sounds rough on the knees and not particularly forgiving flex-wise.

But, Durabak sounds better. A grit coating with some rubbery flex sounds ideal. They say it can be recoated onto itself. My little Commander aint no tugboat. After reading all the info they supply, I'm inclined to go that way. Here are some boys using it on their boats

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic....r=asc&start=15

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=171363

[bill@ariel231]

I've had good luck with the Interlux (both the additive and premix) on my boat and with a friend's boat raced every tuesday&wednesday night. The finish feels like 100grit sand paper and holds up well for 3-4 years at a time. When it gets tired I've sanded the surface a bit and recoated. To my mind it's a lot easier than the stick on systems (and its' cheap). Average 1Qt per coat.

Durabak looks interesting. How does it mix with other types of paint?

[ebb]

CupO,
Think the Lewmar antiskid is that ellusive TBS - which I believe is a french (TBS Industrie) polyurethane sheeting that IS cut to fit and glued on with sikaflex tube urethane. It seems that it is impossible to buy in the States. I was once real interested.

DO YOU KNOW A SOURCE FOR TBS???

What is intriquing about this antiskid is that it is SOFT - and that when it gets wet it holds your feet even BETTER. Europeans consider it the best there is in antiskid. Lasts a decade or more, doesn't wear like painted on. Seems finicky in application (I found an english language ap manual on the web) - but maybe no more so than applying a wet one. My guess is that you'd get much cleaner sharper edges. The TBS ap manual also gives instructions on glue/sealing the edges to keep them from rolling up! Another step. Another expense?

The sample of Durabak I got is HARD, not rubber-like at all imco. I also asked Durabak for info on marine applications. Like a sailboat deck. Got one general tradesheet (the tug boat) and 3 sheets on the usual pickup truck stuff. Asked to see some other light color samples and got one business card sized sample of beige on heavy aluminum foil. I don't consider PU truckbed lining as very forgiving and soft.
My feeling is that over time this stuff will weather even harder.

As one guy pointed out on that forum you posted: BLOOD washed off real good, but oil was a problem and DID NOT. Like much anecdotal experience, none on his forum asked him about it in depth. Chewing tobacco might also be a problem.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
"Sani-tred has been creating waves in the basement waterproofing market since 1989." (direct quote) This could be very true. One would think that in twenty years there would be more websites/forums around where the material, if it really was a the miracle product we hope it would be, would have been discussed or cussed more. But the support and evidence for Sani-tred and Durabak is very thin. Hardly a ripple. And both companies are strangely inept at breaking into the marine 'pleasure boat' market. Must be a reason.

[ebb]

The third kid on the block. This is another waterborne polyurethane ( like Sani-tred). Has some interesting preliminary points. Requires a primer, which is a waterborne epoxy. NO VOCs. Color chart shows a more yachtsy group of colors with a choice of lighter ones.

This one has NO POT LIFE. Open-close the can as many times you like. Quick perusal of the manual has no mention of additives and catylists like Sani-tred. Granules are already mixed into the coating, no broadcasting like Santi-tred.

Sani-tred uses ground up rubberbands (have a bag - thta's what it looks and feels like) for the non-skid which by anecdotal evidence makes a softer more skin friendly surface. Ultra-Tuff uses the recycled rubber bits maybe like that Durabak uses and Durabak anti-skid is as close to aluminum oxide 40 grit as rubber can get. If you are a bare foot, bare knee, and bare bunn kind of sailor, or have crew that is, you won't choose these two on granules alone.

If you decided you liked Ulta-Tuff I'd ask their tech if you could mix your own soft granules into their smooth stuff. I guess it depends on how tuff the coating is - that soft granules would not depress, break the skin and roll out. Just guessing. There is no excuse for a polyurethane coating to use petroleum solvents in their formula. I may look into Ultra-Tuff myself. It LOOKS like the easiest of the three to apply.

Interesting how very different the polyurethane coating chemistry is from each other....

How's the durability, how's the UV, how long will it look good, and like someone points out on the following forum: how hard is it to remove?
www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8020
google> deck coating - Boat Design Forums
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Sorry! Led myself and others astray again. It looks like ULTRA-TUFF DOES NOT MAKE A SMOOTH NO-GRANULE COATING. If this is true (I hope I have read their product list wrong) it is a serious omission by the company. Still can't believe it! It's too weird! WHY?
hmmmm... I'll just strain their antiskid out and... put in my own......let's see....
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
UPDATE: Ultra-tuff salesman called in response to a middle of the night email. A smooth, no granule version DOES exist (UT-25) and in all the nice colors. He agreed that their non-skid is pretty agressive and understood my need for a kinder material TO LIVE ON.. Samples on the way. Ultra-tuff seems to be the easiest and safest to apply, no pot life, no VOCs at all, You can get virgin EPDM offwhite granules for about $60 a 50# bag. LATER.

[ebb]

There is a 'Paint it and sail it - Sani-tred' thread in the archive.

And an archived 'deck finish' thread.
Where marymandara describes an epoxy peanut butter / polycarbonate granule method of anti-skid.

[ebb]

Seems to be little follow up on this subject. I would like to full circle and then drop it.

Little Gull #338 had very little water intrusion damage to her balsacore deck. Because the deck is for the most part polyester and has been in the weather for 45 years, it certainly needs protection from water thru the laminate. The two leading contenders for long term protection is LPU and polyurethane. I feel that LPU (as a paint) is too thin and too brittle for long term. It is nasty stuff and hard to DIY and hard to repair. My choice, my chase is to find one of the new polyether synthetic rubber urethane coatings which are thicker, more pliable, water based, no sovent, friendly paint. Sani-tred imco requires an engineering degree to use. Ultra-Tuff is a full 180degree opposite. Sani-tred sounds versatile, but Ultra-Tuff's versatility is in its ease of application. I haven't yet tried it.

I received some samples, not all that I requested, of the material without backing. It is extremely flexible. Pulling at the sample shows that it can be deformed and return to its shape. It is not really possible to pull it apart, it is very TUFF. The three samples each have a different texture: smooth to ruff. The ruff sample is close to granola or 16grit belt if you can imagine 16grit as rubber. If I go with this stuff I will get that sack of virgin EPDM and experiment with sieve sizes in the smooth version. The ruff is too much and it is unclear what control the consumer has with the canmixed antiskid he gets. Salesman allowed a DIY could do his own mix but would not actually say so. The lighter color samples: an offwhite and a light grey are nice, but the turquoise blue is imco awful. Matter of opinion. I have been pulling this one apart but it returns to its original shape every time!

The one dealer I found on the net for TBS is Pro-Boat Ltd UK. They do not ship to the US. Without samples it is impossible to access what this material really is. You have what the company says, what a boat builder says. What anybody else says in describing the material may be limited by the observer's experience with other rubber antiskids. Ultra-Tuff in other words might compare well with TBS.

TBS can not have fittings attached thru it. It has to be isolated. I intend and I assume that if I coat the deck and cockpit with smooth Ulta-Tuff I will be able to attach thru it. I then will create islands with the rubber granule layer. Probably will end up having to mount something right on the antiskid and I assume that won't be a problem. Questions for the salesman. For instance: is there a problem bedding a fitting to Ultra-Tuff with a polysulfide?
Generally, I don't trust hightech stuff too much.

This is investigative, I don't recommend Ultra-Tuff or TBS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Way later EDIT: At some point back in '07, got a gallon of no-added-granule rubber paint,
and tried it to line a few out-of-the-way lockers. Tried to sand it as experiment. Difficult, if
not impossible. Can't paint it with enamels -- didn't check that out -- The antiskid quality of
the coating works without granules, so it'd be better for storing loose items. But then asked
self: What about mold, maintenance, what about removal. It's wrong for lockers where
removable shelf liner and a hard smooth easy to clean epoxy coating is better.
Ultimately decided that the rubber thing was too exclusive, and another set of problems.

Guess I'm not the only one, because along comes KIWI-GRIP, which is a waterborne acrylic
yogurt that is applied with a toothed trowel and textured with an open 'plastic-wool' roller to
create the anti-skid surface. A paint that can be sanded, more easily, and recoated, because
it has no added grits, sand, or phenolic, or carbide, to thwart the poor chore slave. Just about
to tape and roll no-skid islands on littlegull! Probably report on the Gallery page.

Read that the texture, while hard, is acceptable to bare feet. Don't know about the cockpit
seats and deck??? Was shown a new Kiwi-Grip deck that the guy was very disappointed with.
He had rolled it on in such a way that the texture was too smooth and, as he showed me,
was slippery. So there is a learning go round.

[CupOTea]

Ebb -

Here's the scoop on Treadmaster:

Lewmar will send you a price list and a brochure which is full of little square samples that say it all. Three weights - 7 colors. Features the adhesive and the rejuvinator. Their e-mail is info@usa.lewmar.com

They will not sell it to you however - I don't think.

Hathaway Resiser & Raymond sailmakers in Stamford CT will. Talk to Bill Chantland at 203-324-9581 or e-mail him at ships.store@hathaways.com. Great guy - knowledgeable. He can get the stuff and will ship it to you. You can tell him Scott Randall (they rigged my boat) sent cha and he'll charge you more :-)

47 3/8" X 35 1/2" sheets are around $130/per.

Hope this helps - still haven't decided which way to go with CupOTea.

[mbd]

I'll second Bill's point above. My new decks were done with Interdeck. It's relatively inexpensive, it looks great, works superbly, and it'll be easy to touch up when needed.