RUDDER SHOE DISCUSSIONS

[tcoolidge]

I told the artisan that I would put a post here and see what kind of real interest there was and get back to him in a few days to let him know if I can find enough takers to make it worth his while. If I only get one or two I'm seriously thinking about making up the difference myself and holding on to the extras until someone wants them. Be nice if there was one available when needed instead of having to go through all this again. This guy does remarkable work and I'd kind of like for him to do the finish machining. He has a huge shop he putters in with several projects, both wood and metal, going and every one of them is a thing of beauty. I also don't want to find out what a machine shop is going to charge to do the setup and drilling for just one shoe.
Will post an update next week.

[tcoolidge]

The shoe maker is going to be doing more castings, this time in naval silicone bronze. He is also going to do the finish machining. If anyone is interested in acquiring a rudder shoe let me know.

Tom

[Hull376]

Tom,

I'm interested for sure at the price you're estimating. Will need one sooner or later, and it makes sense to take a bird in the hand! After you get the final tally of interested skippers, let us know the cost and if its a go or not.

[Jim Rester]

What's happened since July on Rudder Shoes?

Just hauled the boat and mine is gone.

Any help appreciated

Jim

[Bill]

Fred Pomeranz is the source I used for a replacement shoe. His mailing address is:

FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

I will E-mail you his E-mail address . . .

[tcoolidge]

He's a good guy and makes a great rudder shoe.
Tom

[Jim Rester]

The pic is of a rudder shoe from another Pearson. I never saw the boat so I don't know if the rudder post was stainless or not. Obviously this could be made to work but is it a good idea?

If the stainless was more noble than the rudder post and caused the post to disappear my "free" shoe would be the worst bargain I've ever made. And there is some stiff competition for that title.

Another option would be an insert of some material like teflon that would separate the two metals. If I tied the tiller so the rudder did not swing with every wave it might last awhile but how long?

Any ideas?

Jim

[Bill]

IMHO, don't add ss to the mix! Everything else under the boat is bronze.

[donstier]

Good luck with a rudder shoe- I respond here because I don't yet know how to start my own thread... Here's my sitch- I'm buying (probably) A176 out of Orcas Island , and it needs an outboard. I have a GREAT Honda 7.5 LS from the mid-80's. Will it fit in the well? Am I stuck with using some little chainsaw motor? Can the well be modified to fit my Honda? Thanks in advance, fellas- I'm excited to get this little Alberg going and show her transom to my local Port Townsend buddies with their classic (and very cool) woodies. Don Stier ph.360 301-2924

[Bill]

Don, please use the search button at the top of the page and type in "outboard." You will find extensive discussions on the subject. Bottom line, the 4 cycle 8hp Nissan, Yamaha, Mercury, etc (all built by Tohatsu) seems to be the consensus choice.

Any other questions? Please use the search button first!

[ebb]

Hello Jim,
There are some 400 series stainless steels that don't corrode in salt water. The best of the more common 300s is 316. Even that will corrode when oxygen deprived like under washers or where tight against something like under the keel. Sometimes stress corrosion happens when a fastening or plate is under load, screws or bolts crumble or the fitting will develop cracks where corrosion begins. Only low carbon 316 should be welded, normal 316 will rust immediately at the weld.

Is that cup welded on the skeg in your pic? Whether something stainless will corrode is unpredictable, sometimes it won't, even tho it should. Water running by a rudder shoe provides oxygen which may help the fitting survive longer. Out of the water s.s. creates a thin passive protective film in the presense of oxygen.

Stainless has its own problems under water by itself, unless an electrical contact with an annode is constant it will always corrode. In the presense of bronze (copper doesn't like to change its voltage, so when a current happens to it, it is the likely one to corrode or cause the corrosion depending on what it's coupling with) the galvanic corrosion is again unpredictable.

On 338, which had a brass shoe with a s.s. rudder shaft in it, it was the shoe that experienced the worst of the pitting. One would think the copper alloy more noble, except the brasses called bronzes have a load of zinc and lead alloyed in them. If an alloy is a little bit off, and the electric current is just so, I guess the alloy itself can corrode. The s.s rudder shaft in this case showed no obvious deterioration. It was not zinced - the shoe was.

Two very different alloys: s.s and bronze have absolutely no business together under water. That is asking for trouble.

Maybe to say they will create some bad business together. Since you can't isolate rudder shaft and shoe you have to zinc the separate pieces. But either the zincs wouldn't work or they'ld dissolve so fast the shoe or the rudder would quickly become unprotected. Even similar alloys (two bronzes or or two stainless) are different enough to begin exchanging little particles.

[Jim Rester]

ebb

Thanks for the educated reply. The piece in the pic looks like two different diameters of pipe welded to a piece of flat stock.

It came from a very old Pearson someone cut up. I have no idea if it was oringinal or a replacement. If a replacement, of course I don't know how long it spent in the water but it shows no sign of corrosion.

That said, nor have I seen the effect it had on it's partner the rudder post.

Dissimilar metals are always a problem I guess and welds are a problem. I have seen that on the 100% stainless holding tank on my old Cheoy Lee.

It is unlikely that someone is going to say, "Sure! No Problem! Let it rip!" but I thought I'd try.

You mentioned that even different batches of the same alloys can be a problem. Does anyone know how the people who are selling Bronze Silicon shoes are insuring compatibility with the rudder post?

Wow! It's after 5:00 on New Years Eve. The shadow is on the Yard Arm. The heck with cathades and anodes and all their unfaithful little electrons!!

Time to be happy!!!!

Thanks for the advice in this and the other conversations.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

JIm

[ebb]

HNY Jim,
Play around with the Search option on the top of this page. There are shoes being made. (But I must say I disagree completely with the alloy.) I've seen very rare mentions of alloys having to be the same. It is my opinion that the shoe and the shaft MUST be the same alloy. Even so you have to trust the supplier, who I would actually ask for the alloy percentages even where they originate.

Personally I chose what I consider one of the purest Bronzes available, a real bronze, not a brass masquerading as a bronze they sell to the pleasure boat crowd. Everdur 655. Almost pure copper + a pinch of silicon. Manganese bronze is nearly 40% zinc. In the iffy environment of salt water, hot marinas and no positive way to protect metal, that has too much of a spread. For me. It's a fine strong alloy for stem fittings, chain plates and the like.

I would mate the M. bronze shoe with the same in rod for the shaft. But then what will you use to hold the rudder planks? Could thread smaller rod to make the 'bolts.' Could be done avoiding ubiquitous silicon fasteners available almost everywhere. Ah, yer thru hulls are another unrelated brass called bronze. My Everdur cost like gold. Don't think M.B is cheaper, don't know, tho.

[ebb]

HNY Jim,
Play around with the Search option on the top of this page. There are shoes being made. (But I must say I disagree completely with the alloy.) I've seen very rare mentions of alloys having to be the same. It is my opinion that the shoe and the shaft MUST be the same alloy. Even then you have to trust the supplier, who I would actually ask for the alloy percentages and the three digit numeber you can look up. What country the alloy originates may also be a clue as to its purity.

Personally. For 338's rudder and shoe I chose what I consider one of the purest Bronzes available, a real bronze, not a brass masquerading as a bronze they sell to the pleasure boat crowd. Everdur 655. It is a classic marine bronze. Considered propeller shafting. Almost pure copper, a teaspoon of silicon and a pinch of manganese. Manganese bronze is nearly 40% zinc. In the iffy environment of salt water, hot marinas and no positive way to protect metal, that has too much of a spread. It is for me. It's a fine strong alloy for stem fittings, chain plates and the like. I am not a metalurgist or an engineer. There is very good reason to believe that the original Pearson Ariel rudder shoe was/is manganese bronze.

I would mate the M. bronze shoe with the same in rod for the shaft. But then what will you use to hold the rudder planks? Could thread smaller rod to make the 'bolts.' Could be done avoiding ubiquitous silicon fasteners available almost everywhere. Ah, yer thru hulls are another unrelated brass called bronze. My Everdur cost like gold. Don't think 675 is cheaper, don't know, tho.

[Let me add that 655 can be welded. M. Bronze (675), being a brass, can only be brazed. If you are going to make the two-part shaft original rudder with the bent upper portion that goes over the aperture, you can cold bend the 1" silicon bronze ( but it will work harden if you bang it too much) Wouldn't try - I'ld take it to a metal shop with drawings! Really don't know if 675 can be bent or threaded.]

If I became edjercated it was self defense. Too many amateurs and professionals too are influenced by tradition, the marketplace, and experts influenced by tradition, industry brochures & spec sheets, and the mktplace.
But if I get on a cruiser site and the guy is unhappy with some stainless or badmouths some big name bilge pumps - and is specific about it - I'll give it a listen and look for confirmation. Figure their lives depend on their boats and gear. The ONLY metal you should go into the low latitudes with is silicon bronze. Only the very best 316 will last 2, 5, 10 years. None of it under water.

It would be hard to imagine that Pearson skeg you have to be original. Another clue is that the fastenings are not in sheer when attached to the keel. To do that the shoe would have to have sides. like a shoe, and be thru fastened thru the keel molding. I don't trust people like me who talk too much either.

[ebb]

One simple statement.

The reason you have corrosion or dezincification in the shaft or other rudder part, or if you have pitting in the shoe,

is because there is ZINC in your bronze alloy.



Tell me I'm wrong, ok?