New Fangled Hoses & SEACOCKS!

[Scott Galloway]

Anyone had any luck working with the white sanitary waste system reinforced hoses? The white stuff seems to be the only hose stock that marine stores carry these days other than reinforced bilge pump hoses?

The current challenge is trying to replace my clear plastic cockpit and sink lines with reinforced tubing.

I guess that the white stuff is very reliable, but how on earth do you get it to slide onto a pipe or through hull fitting? Soaking in hot water doesn't get enough hose on the pipe for a second hose clamp. The vertical distance between the valve and the downspout is short and the "T" to the sink must fit into that space also.

The white stuff says "1 1/2" but it sure doesn't slide very far onto a one and a half inch cockpit drain fiberglass down spout.

[marymandara]

Silicone spray lube...lots of it...and S-h-o-v-e while it is still wet!

I'm a bit worried, though, about using sanitation hose on those drains. More worried still that there was clear PVC tubing there. Wow.

Usually drains like that use 4-ply marine exhaust hose, which is a real thrill to get on, too. With that stuff, you might want to try clear silicone GREASE on the fitting and a heatgun on the hose before you go a-pushin'. It's a bit awkward, but it goes.

Best,
Dave

[commanderpete]

That white sanitation hose is a nightmare. I tried heating the hose, lubing it, working it. Once you make a connection you can't twist the hose anymore and it becomes a real struggle to connect the other end. Connections with a barb or a ridge were nearly impossible.

I tried a heat gun, and I probably could have softened the hose with enough heat, but I was afraid of leaving the hose weakened.

I just kept trying to force the hose on. The only thing that got the hose on was pure animal aggression.

At one point I started to doubt myself. It must be my fault. Maybe I'm some weak girlie-man who can't get these hoses on.

Whenever a friend stopped by the boat I would have them take a shot. They huffed and they puffed but they couldn't do it either.

After I got most of the connections made I bought some of the other brand of white sanitation hose. Same problem. Then I bought some of the black wire reinforced sanitation hose. This worked a little easier.

Sanitation hose is so stiff and non-pliable because its non-permeable. You don't need that kind of hose on the drains. Other types of hose may be just as strong but easier to use.

[Hull376]

Scott,

I got 1 1/2" multi ply wire reinforced black hose from the local car parts store. Its expensive, but slid on far more easily than that white or vinyl stuff, plus, it takes bends better (for example the sink drain hose). The stuff I used is tougher than "heater" hose, suspect it is used in filler cap to gas tank installations.

[Brendan Watson]

Scott-
It sounds like you allready tried it but, dip the end of the hose
in boiling water untill it is soft enough to easily slip on, about
a minute or so.
Cheers,B.
C-215

[Scott Galloway]

You know, I am actually not doing this job myself.

I have no trailer and no lomng term parking space, and time is of the essence. I will finish the head portion for the job once I am back in the water, and that will mean messing with the white hose. Therefore, I posted the question that began this thread.

I originally began to do what I thought would be the modest job of replacing some hoses, but I ran into a problem with one-and-one-half inch fiberglass cockpit drain pipes, two one-and-one-eighth-inch rubber plug Grocco sea cocks, and one frozen head tapered bronze plug outflow seacock.

A previous owner had installed on and one eighth inch un-reinforced clear plastic line on the cockpit and sink lines, which he stretched to fit on a one an one quarter inch "T" and the one and one half glass cockpit drain pipe. After fooling with this for a few days, I decided to consult with the yard in which my boat is captive.

I am hauled out and paying for yard parking space. The longer I stay the higher the daily rate goes. I am rushing to get to back to the water, so that I can drop the mast and start accident repair to my mast and deck.

While I am hauled, I had hoped to change a few hoses, but I discovered (in the opinion of the yard) that I needed new through-hulls and valves. So this was the hose project that began with a surveyor's recommendation, then moved to a bewlidered owner, whjo sought a yard consultation, and finally contracted for replacement of through hulls and valves by said yard: And alll because of a sticky problem in which I could not locate suitable parts and I needed some advice.

Unfortunately, my littel hose project became an expensive complete plumbing rehabilitation project inclusive of through hulls. When I began this thread by posted my question on that white hose, it was because we were having some problems with the stuff. The silicon grease thing is certainly worth trying. MY Yard folks use the hot water trick. I still have to plumb the rest of my head system, but I wanted the through hulls and valves connected before I launched. Thanks to my yard folks, they are now connected, but I am amazed at how difficult the process of working with the white hose appeared to be.

I also had some original tapered plug seacocks with no backing blocks on the head, one of which was frozen. I endeavored to free the valve, but failed. I failed mostly in that I failed to recall that Dan Spurr's "Boat Book" (in which he described his Triton rehabilitation in detail) has a spiffy protocol for freeing stuck tapered plug seacocks that involves a wooden hammer.

Even when I brought my errant seacock home and put it into a vise, a wooden hammer did not work, but a solid swack with a steel hammer loosened the tapered plug and the valve is actually in good shape, even though after being frozen closed for what was probably at least ten years. The seacock was still full of seawater. Of course it was. Where would the water go? If I can ever get the severed shaft of the through-hull out of it, it would be reusable.

My surveyor originally recommended pulling the seacock, cleaning it up and seeing if it was still good, but the seacock wasn't backed by a backing plate, so I asked the yard to loan me an expert, and they did. My local yard recommended that I replace the valves and through hulls, and that's where this project became expensive.

The yard apparently uses two types of hose for non-engine related sailboat hoses.

1. That white stuff. The installation of this white stuff became problematic. But it is now installed for the cockpit drains and head.

2. The clear black spiral reinforced hose sold as "bilge pump" line by West Marine. This connects the sink to a "T" in the port cockpit drain line.

The next task will be for me to install the white lines to the holding tank and through deck pump out.

So what's wrong with the white stuff for the cockpit drains besides the difficulty of installation? The cockpit drains and sink are non- pressurized. The white stuff is reinforced santitation hose. Is their vulnerability in having this stuff on the cockpit drains or sink?

How about that black spiraled bilge pump hose on the sink?

By the way, I found it interesting that the head seacocks, which I assume were original equipment, were not mounted to backing plates, but they had enlarged bronze bases. They were bedded solely with silicon?

My cockpit drain sea cocks were more recent, I think. They were bedded in some hardened cream-colored goop, and also some silicon. I am not a silicon expert, but bedding through hulls below the water line doesn't seem like a terribly good place to use it.

On the other hand forty years with no leaks is a pretty good run!

[Theis]

Use the white stiff drain hose. Soften it by soaking it in BOILING water. A few degrees lower than boiling, as I recall, makes a great deal of difference. When you pull it out of the water, you have to move fast, but the stuff is pliable, can take turns without collapsing, and is solid.

As for the cockpit drains, there is no room for error using hosing having less rigorous standards. From experience, I can tell you that you want no possibility that there will develop a pinhole leak as the plasstic ages - unless you are trying to collect insurance. Watch out for any hosing that has a metal coil inside it (like neoprene) to keep it from collapsing. That stuff, I fear, deteriorates because of a chemical reaction between the steel and the "rubber/plastic/whatever".

[marymandara]

Hmm...
Good rubber 4-ply exhaust hose is a little stiff, but a heat gun eases it...silicone grease helps it..and it is extremely tough. Think about what it is used for! It's also, as far as I know, the standard and ABYC-recommended material for the job you are doing. Comes in lots of sizes...and, in fact, the original Pearson hoses were--guess what?


It is also worth considering in all this...that you don't want to go horsing on the fiberglass tubes harder than needed. Also, for the same reasons that it is important to have hose in there in the first place (production concerns aside)---the flexing of the sole, and the flexing of the hull (both are more than one would likely think)--you do not want an excessively stiff hose in there.

Does this yard do engine work/installations? Then...they should have the proper exhaust hose in inventory.

Not to seem contrary, but it sounds like a lot of wheel reinvention to me.

Dave

[Scott Galloway]

So Dave,

With all that said, what do you think of this installation? (Port cockpit drain with sink connecting in "T")

The wood blocks were preexisting. The faint greenish color on the hull below the block is stain from corrosion from the old bronze seacocks. The wood blocks seem to be attached to the hull with some form of semi-hard tan stuff. I don't know what it is, but the yard drilled the blocks for one and a half inch thru-hulls an reused them, tan stuff and all. The old cockpit drain, through-hulls and seacocks were bedded with silicon and some of this tan stuff. (The head through hulls by-the-way were bedded solely with silicon.)

The white goop in the photo is 3M 4200. The through-hulls was bedded in 4200, and most of the hose connections also use it liberally. The vertical hose is that white santition hose we have been discussing on this thread, and the black striped hose connecting the sink is one and a half inch hose that West Marine sells as bilge pump hose. That is a West Marine nylon "T".

Note that the valve is mounted on the threads of the through-hull stem. It is not a traditional seacock.

After I saw the installation, I was surprised that they had not instaleld seacocks, sicne that si whatthey had removed. I discussed the installation with the yard manager, and he told me that this is their SOP, although they will install the flanged sea cocks if a client specifically requests them to do so. They feel that there is no difference in safety or durability of the through- hull, although they predict a shorter life for the valve than with traditional seacocks. They don't even seem to stock traditional seacocks in their chandlery.

With the exception of the flange and the fact that the sea cocks sold by West Marine have drain plugs, the valve mechanism itself appears to be very similar: Bronze with an electrically isolated stainless steel ball. So the main issue is flange with bolts or screws into the backing plate vs. tightening nut on the through-hull as a means of attachment to the hull.

On the one hand, it seems to me that a through- bolted sea cock adds three more holes to the hull but it is a very secure fitting, Screwing a traditional seacock into a wooden backing plate would prevent the seacock from rotating and there by loosening, but seems less secure than through bolting, and it would be impossible to tighten if the bedding fails below the block, without unscrewing the seacock screws.

Now these older primarily-mechanical systems were developed before 3m 4200 and similar adhesives were invented. With the advent of new adhesive bedding compounds, perhaps a tightening nut on a through hull and inline valves is a satisfactory or even a better approach, since one can tighten the nut if necessary.

However being the kind of guy who like traditional boats, I am the kind of guy who would sleep better with traditional seacocks. Any thoughts?

Absent an existing backing plate in good condition, the yard uses fiberglass backing plates. They did this on my head through hulls.

This installation conforms to nothing that I have seen in any book on the topic that I have read. but then again, I read mostly old books or those by traditionalists. My yard says they do this type of ball valve installation regularly and the installations work just fine, and last for many years.

This isssue alone would make a good topic for a thread. The cockpit drain system is now different than what I had before Before I had traditional sea cocks that were merely screwed into the backing plate with half-inch screws, and not through bolted.

My two head sea cocks were solid bronze tapered plug style valves with an integral flange on the base of each seacock, and no backing plates. They were bedded with nothing but silicon. Once the exterior mushrooms were cut away, they just lifted off the hull. This was probably an original installation folks. Spooky as that seems

[Tony G]

Scott,
I could live with that. Somewhere in the crevices of my mind I keep hearing no, no, not silicon. I honestly can't remember where I read or heard not to use it on boat projects. Maybe it was just one person's opinion I've taken for gospel. I know 113 has silicon on her and my O'day has some on her too!
The other thing I noticed is you have some drain/scupper tails sticking down from you cockpit. When were those replace and what did you use. Yes, of course this is just a cheap ploy to get you to post some more pictures.
Thanks, Tony G

[ebb]

My notes tell me this:

Don't use white corrugated hose for below water hookups. What you want is the most reliable stuff available. Only the best.
Use USCG, SAE J2006 R or R2
The best is silicone blue or, 2nd, EPDM black exhaust hose.
Auto hose has no standards.

Mass marine marketers carry Trident hose. But you probably will have to search for the silicone - which has a 10 year guarantee on it! For the few feet we need, it'll be worth every worry-free cent. Yeah, dollar.
I will use the same heavy smooth wall R hose for the blige pump pickups.
'Soft' refers to (2, 4, 6) multi layer polyester or fiberglass reinforcement - so that it doesn't collapse under pressure or bending. 'Hard' refers to spiral reinforcement of plastic or steel wire.
If you use steel wire reinforced hose on bronze fittings, you are asking for trouble.

You may find cuffs for corrugated hose ends that will allow an easier slip fit over hose connectors.
And for thick hose you may have to use s.s. T-bolt clamps.

[marymandara]

The argument for ball valves, from an installer's perspective, is that they are lots cheaper, you could keep a bunch in inventory for a lot less than flanged seacocks...and they are easier to install.

The still-current argumant against is that all that weight and vibration load is sitting squarely on the threaded neck of the thru-hull. This is really bad if the thruhull meets a hot marina and there is an electrolysis issue, and can be bad if something comes adrift in the boat and goes slamming into the thing. It takes a whole lot to snap off or corrode thru a seacock, even if the thing is very pink and very old. The head discharge seacock in the Triton was both of the above and very stuck, to boot. No thru-bolts, either, just gooped to the glassed-in plywood backer. After I took out the thruhull barb, I still couldn't get it to budge. Had to finally smack it with a BIG hammer to get it free, but it didn't break.

Last summer I replaced all the thruhulls in a 1978 Pearson 30, as well as replacing all the fiberglass tubes with thruhulls. There were an number of simple thruhulls with ball valves in that boat, and using nothing but a pipe wrench I had no less than two of them break right off before the ball valve would turn to come off.

It wasn't THAT big a pipe wrench. I'm not THAT big a guy. I wasn't pulling any too hard, and I wasn't pulling at a goofy angle. There was no pinking that I could see. These things scare me.

Lots of boats have these installations like this, certainly more than have proper seacocks...because it is cheap and fast and there is no regulation that forces the maker/repair facility to do otherwise. I'm sure it works great 90 percent of the time, right? I just don't want to be aboard a boat that becomes the smaller number.

BTW...the one that broke off the fastest...the valve was turning, albeit with difficulty. All of these broke jaggedly (I think there were actually three that did) well below the valve and well above the hull. So...right next to this one...is where the owner kept his toolbox!

That all said, I'm sure what you have there will work...it wouldn't be my preference, but it will work...just treat it tenderly.

Best,
Dave

[ebb]

Dave's right! The yard manager does not have your safety in mind, only his profit margin. It takes more experience to put in a seacock,

It takes more experience to install a flush thruhull than a mushroom.

To get the handle orientation correct on a ball valve, the guy tightens it a little more or a little less. On a seacock you have to trim the tail of the thru hull and you have to think where the small fastenings go in relation to where the handle will end up. You probably have to put it together dry a couple times. The backup pad has to be 90 degrees to the thru hull - you can cheat with a ball cock. On a cramped boat, the handle has one place it can go plus or minus one degree.

The ball cock on a thru hull tail piece is an accident waiting to happen. A proper whack of a "tool box" against it could break it off right there at the exposed threads, which have relatively little meat on them. With a smidgen of dezincing your new sanitation tubes won't mean a thing. Especially if the last time you changed your seacocks was in 1978.

It's a big if, but if you ran the ballcock down to the thru hull backing nut so it would be less likely to "tip" when hit, that you could argue ok. Seacocks with their wide bases were designed for secure installs. Suggested on another post that a first class seacock install would not necessaryly require the flange fasteners go thru the hull. just into the backing block.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks for all of the comments folks.
here are a few answers:

Tony,

Drain/scupper tails sticking down from your cockpit? Shucks, I thought those were original. They seem to be part of the original deck molding on hull 330. They take 1 and 1/2 inch hoses You wanted some more photos. Here is one of the cockpit drain opening before the new fitting. The wood block is evident above the mesuring tape, but the tape measures "glass thickness only" at a little less than one inch. As I recall it measured 7/8 inch.

Ebb,

That isn't white corrugated hose in the photo above. That is Sealand "OdorSafe" sanitation hose with a smooth interior. It is stiff as can be, and hard to fit over the barbed plastic and bronze fittings on my boat. One the other hand I have noted that the stuff seems tight on some plastic Y valves on the West Marine shelves and almost too loose on others, so go figure. It seems strong and yet somewhat flexible. It just doesn't stretch easily. However printed on the outside of the hose are warnings about not exposing it to petrochemicals, solvents etc. So one would have to be careful about spilling solvents in ones cockpit, bit then again wouldn't that apply to most hose?

To all:

I agree with you all about the seacocks. When one you raised the specter of a flying toolbox colliding with an exposed, threaded through-hull stem below the in-line ball valve, I came to better understand the difference.

Frankly when I decided to have the yard remove and replace the through hulls and seacocks, I took it for granted that they would be installing seacocks. The deed was done by the time I comprehended the nature of what had been installed. The next step was to attempt to undertand the difference. Your comments have been most helpful.

The yard tells me, and my surveyor tells me, that installing these in-line valves is SOP these days, but I agree with you all that seacocks would be a far better way to go. I suppose that if of these through hull stems were to break off in a ragged tear below the valve, about the only way to plug the hole would be to go over the side and ram a wooden plug up into the hole: A horrid little thought.

I better add a crew member to my list. We'll call the person who volunteers for that duty a plug monkey. I hope plug monkeys can swim.

[Tony G]

Scott,
Geez, I must be spending too much time on this computin thing...eyes is goin'. In the picture added on the 16th it looks like there is a shiney brass tail hanging down from your cockpit. I had fooled myself into believing that was a different scupper than the original model. Your newer hull must have shinier fiber glass! Thanks for the pic just the same Tony G