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Thread: Bilge Pump Discussions

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

    I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

    Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

    Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

    There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.
    Scott

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

    I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

    Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

    Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

    There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.
    Scott

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

    I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

    Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

    Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

    There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.
    Scott

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

    I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

    Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

    Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

    There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.
    Scott

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

    I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

    Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

    Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

    There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.
    Scott

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

    I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

    Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

    Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

    There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. However, I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit.
    Scott

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Your concept of placing a vented loop near the centerline of the boat seems like a good idea in either a manual or electric pump. I see no reason why it would not be possible to have both a vented loop and a flapper valve in the lazarette locker, where they would be accessible. It would be a simple matter then to observe just how these devices function under different sea conditions, and to quickly remedy any blockage that might occur in the valve. I would not be enthusiastic about a vented loop in any compartment other than the self-draining lazarette locker.

    Perhaps putting a flapper valve in an electric pump line is a different thing than putting one in a manual pump line, but printed material that came with my new Whale Urchin pump has no warnings against flapper valves in the line. The Whale pump and the Guzzler pump that I already have in my boat both have two flapper valves installed by the factory within the bodies of the pumps. The flapper valves that I purchased for my bilge pump lines were manufactured for that specific purpose by a bilge pump manufacturer.

    I mentioned earlier that I was able to get one of the two flapper valves in my Guzzler pump to fail by blowing it backwards. I did that by shoving a garden hose on full force into the transom outlet and holding it there. The other valve held however. The valve that failed was not damaged. I was in the process of installing a new diaphragm and valves, so I replaced them anyway. I am keeping the old valves as emergency spares.
    Scott

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    Scott: You're more into it than I am so I am - and that means more up to date. I am working from memory and experience. Keep in mind that Saint Murphy is the patron saint of sailors. When you are in trouble - there is likely so much going on that you don't have the hands or stamina to effect repairs. And when fixing a pump hose, the pump can't be working, and worse, it is possible that water is coming in through the hose being repaired.

    My vents are in the motor lazarette.

    One other thought about the electric bilge pump. When, as we have both experienced, there is water above the bilge boards, it is important to get that water out of there ASAP a) to see what might be leaking, b) to make sure the leak is not catastrophic and c) to free your hands so you can fix the leak or do what otherwise has to be done, including manning the second pump. Thus, the battery capacity is irrelevant for the purpose of a "catastrophe" pump. The lower the boat gets in the water the more water it may be shipping.

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    There is great wisdom in your words. A high volume electric pump would be a wonderful addition to any boat with electrical power regardless of battery capacity.

    I think that this thing about the advisability of one-way (flapper) valves in manual bilge pump systems deserves some commentary from the manufacturers and other persons with technical knowledge in the matter. The pump manufacturers also build the valves, and presumably they do so for some reasonably valid purpose. Boat plumbing professionals should also be consulted.

    Although it may be true that about could be lost due to a blocked flapper valve, the lack of working one-way valves could result in a siphoning problem in any system where the exit thru hull is below the water line, as ours might be on some point of sail.

    Although it might be unlikely that both of the flapper valves that are integral to a manual pump might fail simultaneously, a small amount of bilge trash sucked into the line could do that very thing, I suppose. A third flapper installed in he lazarette locker would provide some further protection in that case.

    As you note, a third valve in the lazarette would also increase the risk of complete blockage of the system. So we are into arena of conjecture and opinion on the advisability of adding a one-way flapper valve in a bilge pump line when it comes to manual pumps.

    Now, a flapper valve in an automatic electric pump system might be a completely different matter, because of the possibility of the valve becoming blocked while the boat is unattended. Those folks with inboard engines would need to seriously consider the alternatives and consequences of those alternatives.

    I guess that the problem is that with limited resources, the lack of space for redundant systems, and the inevitable setting of priorities for maintaining a reasonably safe boat, we all must make compromises. Surely, the only safe alternative is never to go to sea. I recall thinking about the alternatives if I were to break a leg in the backcountry during my ski patrol days, and it all came down to that two way radio. A experienced sailor I once knew had a simple answer to questions about whether this or that boat was seaworthy. His answer was, "If you have a good radio."

    Fortunately, we have a basically seaworthy boat in our Ariels, but the failure of a thru hull, or other piece of plumbing on any boat at sea would change your priorities quickly. If you are far enough off shore at the time, you would be well served by two electric bilge pumps installed as per Don Casey's recommendations, with plenty of juice to support them, and a couple of well placed manual pumps just in case.
    Scott

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    For whatever it is worth, I have two separate and independent bilge pump systems. One with the largest Rule pump available ($99.00 in the late 90s.) Initially I installed a check valve, but subsequently removed it, and simply put a hole in the top of the tubing just under the lazarette cover at the top of the loop.

    Then separately I install the Whale with the outlet in the lazarette, well above water level. The output goes into the well and drains from the well - no check valve, and no vent - although there is a loop.

    I haven't come across a better system - and it is not because the system was the result of my conclusions. On the other hand, although I do still take on water, I have never had a near occasion to visit my Maker since these were installed.

    You mentioned space. There is plenty of space. The 1 1/2" hoses pass in the bilge under the floor under the cockpit and up opening adjacent to the rudder post, then up into the bench lazarettes, one on either side. The starboard one for the Rule pump goes through the bulkhead at the top just under the deck. The Whaler one goes to the Whaler mounted at on the side of the bench lazarette at the aft end of the cockput, as high up as I could get it. That output goes through the bulkhead and the output is pointed down. but yes, it does not go through the bottom but just into the well - no siphoning is possible *-unless the boat is in really serious shape with the decks awash. Then I can rely on the check valve in the Whale.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Theis,

    Thank you for all of your thoughts on this topic. I like the idea of locating the manual pump in the aft end of the cockpit, both because of the possibility of running the line up from the bilge next to the tiller post into the cockpit locker and because that makes the pump accessible to me where I usually sit when single handing if I need to close to the tiller, as in sailing on a broad reach or downwind. So it would seem like a good place to be able to pump and steer. Also your recommedations on the electric pump are helpful.

    I do have three remaining questions for you before I start the installation fo rmy Whale manual pump, if you would be so kind:

    1. You refer to one and a half inch bilge pump lines. What sort of fitting did you use to get a watertight seal as the one and a half inch line goes through the lazarette bulkhead? I have a fitting for a one-inch line, but can't find one for a one and a half inch line.

    2. My Whale urchin installation instructions are brief. Did you cut a three-inch hole in the cockpit wall for your pump? How did you seal the pump, and does it leak?

    3. My pump has mounting holes on the side that will face the cockpit wall and on the side that will be the bottom. Did you just hang your pump from the cockpit wall, or did you also provide a little shelf for it to sit upon for added security and to protect it from shifting things in the cockpit. I assume that the aft cockpit lid scupper provides a fair amount of protection in that location anyway.

    By the way, when I referred to space, I was referring to space in the lazarette locker, primarily because I store my OB Motor there horizontally in beteeen sails. I lift it with a Garhauer lifting davit, flush it with fresh water, and then store it horizontally. At present its head lies snugly up against the thru hull for the existing bilge pump on the port side, and its lower end just slides in next to the six-gallon plastic gas can on the starboard side. If I do want to run another line to a new thru hull through the transom rather than into the well, it will get a bit crowded in there with the motor in storage mode.
    Scott

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    Answers to the questions first:

    1. I drilled a 1 1/2" hole near the top of the lazarette bulkhead. My recollection is that I sealed the hole with a sulfite sealing compound. I would today probably use 4200. So, there was no fitting used. The flexible hose for the electric pump just continued vertically downward from the top of the bulkhead to the bottom fitting located above the water just to starboard of the aft end of the motor well (so I didn't have the bad visuals of a large fitting sticking out the transom). In the case of the Whale, it too is a continuous flexible hose going through a 1 1/2" hole with sulfite or something sealing it in. The hose bends and points downward.

    2. Yes I did cut a hole in the side of the bench (cutting the glass always hurts - what happens if?). The Whale has a plastic plate as a cover with a rubber-like gasket. I don't recall using any sealer and have had no problems with leakage. I do recall that I had the same question you raised and perhaps had to purchase separately the front plate and gasket for a vertical mount. The plate is very nice, with a flap that covers the whole thing when not in use, and flips up exposing the pump handle connector (The opening is still sealed, however).

    3. The pump is hung from the cockpit wall and is very rigid. There is no shelf. Keep in mind that the mounting is aft of the cockpit scupper, and just under the horizontal bench, so there is lot to hold the vertical wall rigid. All screws are through the vertical wall. The 4 degree scupper drain on the afte end and inside the opening offers protection for the pump body.

    Space: The flexible hoses after they pass through the lazarette bulkhead are cable clamped to the bulkhead so they don't take lazarette space. The electric pump hose goes vertically down into the well, then bends horizontally to where it bends to meet the previously mentioned through hull. All hosing is under the motor well platform.

    One last thing. I mentioned using flexible marine quality (not Ace Hardware) coil type hose rather than the more rigid Shield's hose - that really should be used. I could not figure out a way to do with this with the more rigid hose. I have had no problem with flexible stuff, but recognize that the hose walls are not as heavy. Since the hosing is not exposed to sunlight, I con't imagine having a problem but conceivably there is a weakness there. That is one reason why I have two independent pump exit lines - in case one starts leaking.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    461
    Thanks Theis. That about wraps it up. You answered all of my questions. Now I guess it's me, the hole saw, and a lot of cockpit locker crawling.

    I still need to find a strainer for the bilge end of the new line, and then the rest is all just work. I couldn't bring myself to do that today, so I went sailing instead. It was beautiful out there. A nice steady 10 knots unitl the fog started rolling in when the wind kicked up to about fifteen. I just headed south in one long starboard tack, and then west for a while. Too bad the sun had to do that setting thing. I had to come home.
    Scott

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    Whale makes a couple varieties of strainer. I have the one that lies in the bottom bakd of the bilge - the deepest part - and the hose outlet is in line with the input (not perpendicular) to the part resting on the bottom. The electric centrifugal pump, of course, has a built in strainer.

    And yes we too had beautiful sailing 10 knot of sNE winds, full sun. Wonderful day for the Mackinac and Hook races - but unfortunately they will be tacking the whole way, and it is cold at night.

    But I did note that the outlet for my Whale pump is approximately the level of the flat deck in the motor lazarette - so the output water does not spary everything.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    725

    Mounting a Plastimo 925 in the cockpit

    I have purchased the Plastimo 925 as a back up for the electric pump in my bilge. I intend to mount it in the cockpit, probably in the starboard side up forward. As to the concerns about the handle on this pump, the blue plastic tip in the picture is just a cover for the stainless handle that extends through the body. The unit is pretty stout.

    I know the bridge deck is the recommended location, but my compass is there, and I prefer it on centerline for visibility (and because that is where a compass belongs).



    Do any that have experience with cockpit mounted pumps have thoughts on the merits of placement forward or aft? I am thinking forward would be easier to use, but more likely to hit the back of the legs where as aft might be handily out of the way.....


    ..... ....both in daily use, and when needed.


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

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