Bilge Pump Discussions

[Scott Galloway]

The amazing thing about an Ariel is that it can hold a course on its own with a sheet to tiller arrangement in a moderate swell and in 20 to 25 mph winds with a full main and 90% jib flying. I was sailing that way for about three hours last Thursday, and had plenty to time to leave the tiller to eat lunch, play with my charts and GPS below, and watch the scenery go by. The boat was never over powered, nor with one exception in three hours did we wander off course. Since Augustine wandered to the lee side that time, instead of following her natural inclination to go to weather, I assume that a large swell was responsible for causing us to drift off course.

In answer to your question, my cockpit lockers have a pad eye on the under side of their hatch covers. A length of Dacron line runs forward and through the bulkhead into the cabin, where there is a jam cleat under on the underside of the galley counter on the port side and my chart table on the starboard side (see photo below). I keep the companionway hatch cover shut when underway if there is a possibility of taking on some spray. I have a set of three teak weatherboards that can be slipped into the companionway slot all at once or one at a time as the occasion dictates. I have thus far not had to use them at sea.

I'll tell you one thing: Working with acetone in that cockpit locker is no joy.

I do have one other question on this thread topic, which is supposed to be bilge pumps as siphons. The Association Ariel Manual recommends a bilge pump in the cockpit, and seems to prefer the bridge deck as a location for this pump. My manual pump is inside the cabin mounted to the aft wall of the cabin above the galley shelf (see photo below). I would like to add a second bilge pump. I have looked at various locations in the cockpit. Unless you install one of those flush mounted hand operated bilge pumps, the thing would be in the way. If it wasn't for the necessity of cutting a 3.5 inch hole, I would located a flush mounted pump on the starboard side just forward of the bulkhead that separates the lazarette locker from the rest of the boat. If you do install one of the flush mounted varieties. You have to cut a 3.5 inch hole in one wall of the cockpit. Anyone found a better idea for locating a bilge pump in the cockpit that does not require a 3.5 inch hole?

Other innovative bilge pump ideas will be welcome.

[Scott Galloway]

I have read the posts on bilge pumps on this site and the Ariel Manual on the subject of cockpit-mounted manual bilge pumps.

I have decided to add a second manual bilge pump to my Ariel. I want to add that pump in the cockpit, and I suppose the best place for me will be on one of the sidewalls of the cockpit. It probably makes the most sense to do that reasonably close to the forward part of the cockpit. I have read the Ariel manual, which recommends the bridge deck or bridge deck wall, but that forces me to place the body of the flush-mounted bilge pump and one to one and a half inch tubing in the cabin where it would be in the way and would be unsightly in my opinion. If I understand my boat, there is a double wall there, so the installation would be more complicated than placing a flush mounted pump in a sidewall of the cockpit, which places the body of the pump in the cockpit locker.

I don't relish the idea of chopping a 3.5 inch hole in my boat to accommodate the flush mounted bilge pump.

Now for the questions:

1. Does anyone out there have what you consider to be the ideal, or at least the most pragmatic solution to adding a manual cockpit bilge pump?

2. How have you sealed a flush mounted manual pump to prevent leaks?

3. Does your method actually prevent leaks?

4. If you have a higher volume pump, how many strokes per minute can you handle without fatiguing quickly at that volume?

The choice sees to be the higher volume ~ 20 gallons per minute with a 1.5 inch line, or lower volume ~10 gallons per minute with 1.0 inch line, or forgetting the whole thing and buying the sublimely expensive 30 gallons per minute Edson versatile and portable pump suitable for pumping your bilge, holding tank or washing your anchor or boat down. In the latter case, you would not have to worry about mounting the pump, since it is mounted to a board and is designed to move around the boat.

5. Here is an idea: is it worthy?

The very expensive Edson portable pump model 290017 (see West Marine ecatalog) gave me the idea of buying a much less expensive standard surface mounted 20 GPM bilge pump and mounting it to a board that would slip and clamp into the opening between the cockpit and the lazarette hatch to be used as an emergency bilge pump or wash-down pump, and could also be carried around the boat to be used at other locations. By hooking the pump up with a quick connect/ disconnect fitting to a bilge hose in the lazarette locker, one could have a readily available bilge pump to use in the cockpit when needed without having to chop more holes in the boat, and at the same time one would have a handy pump to use as an anchor wash-down pump on the foredeck. In the bilge pump mode, the outflow pipe could used the OB well as some writers have suggested they are now doing with their fixed mounted bilge pumps, or could have a transom-mounted through hull with a second quick disconnect. I have a one-inch plastic "cistern fitting" designed for a bait tank that has an adapter that reduces to a standard garden hose fitting. This unit is suitable for mounting through the lazarette cockpit bulkhead and connects on the bilge side to one inch bilge tubing. I am already using one of these units on my bilge pump line. That pump is mounted on the aft wall of the cabin above the galley shelf.

6. Also, has anyone installed and used the Plastmo Cockpit Bilge pump? I am not so sure about the strength of the handle. It looks like a good concept otherwise.

[Scott Galloway]

Here is what West Marine has to say about the Edson portable pump.

[Scott Galloway]

Here is what West Marine has to say about the Plastmo cockpit bilge pump:

[Scott Galloway]

Footnote:

While sailing with crew last weekend, it became apparent that all of the above did not solve the problem. Given that had crew, I took most everything out of the starboard cockpit locker while on a port tack and crawled down into the locker. Imagine my surprise to discover that a fitting in which my Loran antenna wire ran through the bulkhead between the lazarette and starboard cockpit locker was spouting water like a fire hose every time we dipped the starboard rail. This particular fitting predated my ownership. I had looked at it some time ago, and assumed that it was caulked with some sort of marine sealant. When I destroyed the thing by removing it along with the antenna wire, I discovered that it was nothing but a piece of schedule 40 PVC pipe glued in place with an unidentifiable somewhat pliable substance that appeared to be glue. The pipe itself was absolutely hollow with no sealant in it or around the wire. The lazarette end was taped first with white rigging tape, which I originally mistook for sealant while peering through the cockpit locker end. The second layer of tape was duct tape, and the third layer was rigging tape. The final layer was electrical tape. The tape was ancient. There was no fitting on the lazarette end to prevent water intrusion and no sealant, but merely the tape. Since I never had leaks until a week or so ago, I never thought to examine it more closely. The PVC pipe entered the lazarette locker behind the portable six-gallon fuel tank. Apparently while replacing the tank after refueling, I must have nudged the pipe in a manner that broke the seal on the tape, and so the next time I dipped the rail, I had flooding both through the aforementioned two small, unsealed holes and through this PVC pipe. A substantial amount of water was coming through the pipe.

My outboard well has been modified to accommodate an older version of the Honda 7.5 four-stroke OB motor. The added sloped extension on the aft end functions as a scoop at hull speed forcing gallons of water up into the lazarette locker and this fills the downwind side of the locker to a level above this PVC pipe, when the excess water spills back into the well. Every time that water surged upwards, this PVC fitting would squirt water into the cockpit locker.

There is now no longer hole there at all. West Systems epoxy and a few pieces of glass cloth made short work of it. So apparently the bilge pump was not at fault, but it's nice to know that the bilge pump line and pump are newly upgraded. I also now have a loop and backflow prevention valve in the lazarette locker. If that valve jams, it would be a simple thing to remove the hose clamp on the uphill side of the valve and pump bilge water into the lazarette locker (or preferably clear the blockage and reattach the hose.

I ran today offshore close hauled for about an hour on each tack today with full sails in about 20+ knots of wind with a moderate swell. At hull speed + I shipped a fair amount of water into the lazarette through the OB well, but no water entered the cockpit locker or other areas of the boat, so it appears that the leaking PVC pipe was the culprit.

Hopefully sealing the hole where that PVC pipe once ran did solve my leak problem, but my research on bilge pumps will probably take me to a second manual pump in the cockpit.

I have also been reading the very interesting posts on this site related to sealing the well, and I am working on a better mousetrap for that little problem which is the root of many other problems in Ariels in general.

[Theis]

One comment about your bilge pump before giving the possible answer to your problem, which I too experienced. The first time I sailed the boat water was up to the berths and we were headed right in to the beach, wondering if we would make it before our craft went to the bottom.

As for the one way valve in the bilge pump, the word on the street is that a one way valve in a bilge pump line is an absolute, unequivical NO-NO. Translated - serious mistake. You must have a vented loop. The one way valve may or may not work when you most need it.

I have never totally solved the problem of water coming in from the engine lazarette as much as I have tried. My situation also, is that the leakage happens when the boat is healed over. Nothing is wet in either of the bench lockers or anywhere else. The water problem was there before I had bilge pumps (my bilge pump had been a Thirsty Mate).

Here is what I have done, with generally good results (Solsken is 1962 version). The bulknead has a joint that corresponds with the floor of the lazarette. I sealed that with every thing, thinking that may have been the cause of the leak (and it may have been one of the sources). I double checked all screw holes into the bulkhead, making sure there was either a screw or it had been sealed. I sealed both sides of the bulkhead, thinking there might be a small leak. Things did improve, and the water stopped coming in from the starboard side, but the port still leaked. Renmember that the plywood used has water paths in the laminations, and water coming in at one point can just follow a lamination joing anc go right out the bottom.

Then, VOILA, I took a garden hose and forced water against the bulkhead top (where it meets the deck - particularly in the area of the scupper). Water poured through, down the back of the bench lazarette and into the bilge (the reason nothing was wet was that the water all stayed at the stern end of the lazarette before going into the bilge at the rudder post).

But I could not see any opening. I took a flashlight and still could not see an opening. Next, came the Dremel tool, and instantly it went through the "seal" between the deck and the bulkhead and I found a sizeable gap between the bulkhead and the deck. When sailing with the boat healed over, water sloshes up against that joint and pours in through unknown pinhead holes in the factory seal. This is an impossible area to get to (both sides of the bulkhear), and I suspect they had the same problem at Pearson.

But, that is where I suggest you look - but you might try the all around the bulkhead as well. In otherwords, don't trust that the bulkhead is indeed waterproof just because it looks like a barrier.

Hope this helps.

[Theis]

What about installing an electric bilge pump in the bilge, and getting some real pumping capacity? That is what I have, and it is great. That way, when the going get tough, you can be working the radio, or the sails, or whatever rather than being thrown around while pumping (Of course a manual pump is also good, but it may not need to be in the cabin)

[ebb]

Theis' commentary on the lazarette bulkhead reminds me of a discovery made about that bulkhead in 338. I couldn't have imagined a more badly fitted piece of work. If I remember, the starboard side looked good with a heavy tab from bulkhead to hull.

But the other side, after a bit grinding revealed a huge gap, at least 2" wide in the turn of the hull, that the tabbing had a difficult time spanning. You could tell something was up after grinding away the spatter paint. It didn't look right, the tabbing, bulging and NOT ATTACHT in one place that allow a wonder bar to be inserted and levered down. Part of the tabbing came loose. The bulging mess was then grinded to the plane of the plywood. It revealed the gap partially stuffed with unsaturated roving cloth. Parts of it still white as the day the farmer jammed it in there!

If the tabbing in the lazarette is not perfect, here, certainly, is a possible leak source. If the lazarette is always wet, it's a certainty.

This reminds me: that when the 'gas can' deck was removed from the ob lazarette in 338, the foam under the what looked like well sealed ply was saturated with water and gas. 'Closed cell' urethane foam is not waterproof

And, if you are wet in the cockpit, here is another possible leak source. The seat scuppers around the side lazarette lids, on 338 are deep triangulat pockets that exit about 6 or 7" above the cockpit sole.
These are 'cold' laminated on to the insides of the cockpit well, which are very thin. One good reason for the design is that the pockets add stiffness to the unit. But by nature or accident could be cracked and leak. Up at the seat along the back under the hinge there is a U-shape scupper that connects the side pockets. On 338 we found that gelcoat was used to glue or caulk this joint. In a couple places in was wide open. Next time you open the lid take a look at the seam.

While not a lot of water would enter these places, it could add up. The cockpit under the stress of sailing could open up joints that appear solid. It's possibe also that water could collect in a corner and be released by heeling the boat when sailing. A mirror and a flashlight.

[Theis]

I hadn't realized the seat scuppers on the Ariel had been a problem. I know they were a problem on the Triton, but I thought that the problem was that when the boat was heeled over more than a certain amount, water splashing over the coaming on to the bench, leaked between the lazarette cover and the bench. Becaus, when the boat is healing, the drain outlet was higher or near the height of the seat scuppers on the leward side, It would fail to drain into the cockpit but instead overflow the and drain into the bilge. That is how, we figured, we almost lost our Triton in "The Race that No One Finished", which I understand is to be published in the Ariel Newsletter this fall.

What I had never looked into, was a "construction flaw". I don't have that problem with my Ariel - or so I believe - but I will look into it - rest assured!

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

The electric bildge pump makes me think that perhaps you have an inboard engine in your Ariel I have a single battery that gets charged at the dock. My Nissan 6 hp motor lacks an alternator/reciifier, or whatever.I will probably add an electric bilge pump in time also, but that would be for use in a very short-term emergency in the event of a sizeable leak. It would not take long for a Rule 2000 or 3700 to drain my battery. I have a manual bilge pump in the cabin already. I want to install an additional manual pump in the cockpit.

Although it is sobering to learn that a one inch hole in the hull two feet beneath the waterline will put more water into the boat than any manual pump made can remove, I can pump a half filled bilge in an Ariel completely dry in two minutes. I had to do that recently, so I decided to time myself. It took two minutes. That is using a Guzzler pump with about a 10-gallon per minute advertised capacity and a one-inch line.

I have also been considering a gas powered pump, or perhaps a small gasoline powered generator that can power an electric pump. Honda makes both. The generator is a bit pricey, but small enough to be suitable for an Ariel. The pump that I like unfortunately cannot be used with saltwater. So I am still looking.

I am also considering solar panels, but solar panels are not going to supply enough juice for a mega leak emergency.

Anyway, the presenting problem in this thread is: Where did you install a flush mounted manual bilge pump in your cockpit if not on the bridge deck, and would you do it again. Does the thing leak?

[Scott Galloway]

Actually, I inspected and water tested all of the hull-to-bulkhead and deck-to-bulkhead areas in my lazarette locker. They are tight and well sealed. The locker had been stripped and glass had been added to extend the well before I bought the boat. It was left unpainted. I painted the locker. What took me some time to figure out was that PVC tube through which the loran antenna ran was not sealed, as it appeared to be. The white stuff that I mistook for caulking compound was actually only rigging tape. That unsealed PVC pipe was responsible for my leak. Now that it has been removed, and the hole in the bulkhead has been filled with epoxy, it no longer leaks.

I took the boat offshore again today, and ran with one rail or the other down for hours. There were absolutely no leaks, despite the lazarette locker sloshing full of seawater.

Now as to the bilge pump line. I did add two loops: one in the cockpit locker, which I do not plan to vent, and one in the lazarette locker, which I may vent. Now a word on raised loops: When an Ariel is sailing with the rail down up is not the same as up when the boat is uporight. It is something else. A loop toward the centerline of the boat is actually above the water line when the boat is heeled to 45 degrees, whereas a verticle loop adjacent to the hull is under water. So my loop in the port cockpit locker is horizontal and drains well when the boat is sitting on the level, but it is "up" when the boat is heeled on a port tack. Unfortunately it is "down" when the boat is one a starboard tack. My lazarette locker loop has both horizontal and vertical elements. So it is up when the boat is on the level, and in some regard it is up at any point of sail I guess. That's the loop that I would vent, but the only logical place to vent it would be on the vertical element…Ooops that vertical element could be below sea level on a 45 degree. Then how about the horizontal loop? Oops, again, that would be down on a starboard tack. Am I just not getting it?

Theis, I am also curious as to why you recommend against one-way valves in bilge pump lines. The one-way valve that I used in my new line is identical to the valves in my manual bilge pump. The only difference is that it is in the lazarette locker, where I could quickly disconnect the hose clamps if it became blocked for some reason, and just allow the pump to pump into the lazarette locker. Most of the power boaters on my street to whom I have spoken believe in one way valves.

Now the loop idea makes a lot of sense, but I did test the one-way valves in my bilge pump by pressuring the line from the transom with a garden hose. I blew one of the valves backwards without damaging it permanently, but the system would not permit water to get past the bilge pump, because the second valve held, and the hose that I was using was forcefully ejected from the transom with my rather forceful hand attached. The addition of one more one way valve in my system just ads that much more assurance that the line will not accept seawater if the transom is down. There would have to be enough force coming up that line the wrong way to blow three valves in series. The additional valve in combination with a vented loop in the lazarette aft of the valve makes a lot of sense to me, and that is how I have set mine up. I just have to figure out how and where to vent that loop.

So in summary, if one-way valves in bilge pump lines are a bad idea, why do Bilge pump manufacturers install one-way valves in diaphragm style manual pumps? This is a serious question, because some day our lives might depend on whether we do or do not have one of these valves in your bilge pump lines. Street knowledge is usually a good thing to listen to, but I like to understand the logic, and frankly I don't in this case. I do understand that an object could block a valve, but again this valve is identical to those in my bilge pump.

And finally, those deck scuppers that are glassed into the hull in the cockpit lockers must have leaked at one point in my boat, because someone slathered sections of them with some black stuff, which I assume is probably epoxy of some sort. They are not leaking now.

[Theis]

I have an outboard, but it does have a generator - max six amps.

The Rule pump is rated 20 amps ( I don't think it draws that much). With an 80 ampere hour battery, that means the pump could run for four hours, or long enough to drain Lake Mead, if my calculations and understanding of ampere hours is correct. Each spring I fill up the bilge above the floor to clean out the beer from broken cans the previous summer. The pump (with automatic shut off) takes perhaps a minute - at the outside - although I have never timed it (1 1/2" hosing leading ouside through the bottom in the motor well/lazarette.)

My exterior Whale Gusher is flush mounted on the port side of the cockpit bench, aft of the bench cover, on the vertical face, just in front of the back end of the cockpit (about where the tiller post is). It is mounted high on the vertical lazarette wall. I keep the handle just inside the motor lazarette opening panel. The retainer string for the handle is long enough so I can take it out of the brackets in the motor well and insert it into the pump. Hope this all makes sense.

[Theis]

Pleased you solved the leaking problem. That is a real pain. I too had the problem with leaking holes through the bulkhead.

As to the check valves, first I am relying on those that appear to know, and they are as emphatic as I was.

But, based on my eperience with one way valves, they can fail. In non boating experiences, I have had experience with the flapper breaking, and it could get stuck in the line. I have had experience with them not sealing. I have had an experience with them not opening fully and restricting the flow.

Now, as for boating experiences, a bilge pump can pick up garbage (even with a strainer) This is particularly true when the cabin is awash and paper, food, whatever are floating around as a slurry.

If any of that stuff (even a relatively small particle - such as a piece of paper) gets caught in the check valve, good bye check valve.

Perhaps the best reason is that a vent does not have any of those drawbacks.

As to the vented loop, what i did to avoid the problem with the vent being under water when the boat is heeled, is to put the vent as close as possible to the center of the boat. My vent for the electric pump ( have separate lines for each pump) is mounted in the motor well. It is nothing more than a small hole in the highest part of the line (any outflow just goes into the motor well). You can further add protection by having the pump line cross over so it goes from the one side to the vent located on the other side.

The manual pump does have a check valve as a necessary part of the pumping action. It is not an additional element. My recollection is that the Whale manual cautions you about using that check valve as an anti-siphon device - but I may be wrong. My Whale manual pump also goes into the motor well and does not have a vented loop (but it does have a loop) because the outlet is above the cockpit floor draining into the motor well. The loop passes high through the bulkhead through a hole just below the bench.

Whale also provides extra parts in case any of those valves/flappers/whatever fails - so you do know they fail.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit, however.

[Scott Galloway]

Theis,

Thanks, that was very helpful. The whale pump that I am planning to install will take either a one-inch or one and a half inch line. It mounts to a bulkhead by four bolts provided by Whale. It appears that an installer has two options in that there are two sets of our boltholes in the body of the pump.

I am going to assume that you mounted yours on the inside of your cockpit locker so that the bolts for the flush mounting pump go through a backing plate and then through the fiberglass cockpit wall. Did you feel that was sufficient, or did you build a little shelf in the cockpit locker for the pump to sit upon and utilize the other four holes to secure the pump to that shelf?

Secondly, how did you seal the 3.5-inch hole in the cockpit wall? I have now purchased a Whale urchin manual pump, and it comes with a formal looking flip up cover that hides the external mounting ring. I suppose that since the diaphragm is rubber, the best thing would be to bed the ring with silicon. Any thoughts? And does yours leak?

Finally, I selected the Whale Urchin rather than the Whale Titan because the Titan takes a one and a half inch line, and I have not found a secure one and a half inch fitting to go through the watertight bulkhead between the cockpit locker and the lazarette locker. I have a one-inch fitting, and so I selected the lower capacity urchin. By the way with a similar capacity Guzzler manual pump I can pump half a bilge full of water completely dry in two minutes. I am interested in what sort of leak-proof fitting you used to get a one and a half inch line through the bulkhead between the cockpit and lazarette lockers.

There is no question that a Rule 2000 pump would be a great asset. I would still want a manual pump in the cockpit, however.