jib track placement

[Ted]

Friends,

I am learning a lot from your site!

After repainting inside and out, balancing and building the A4, and stripping a trashed racing hull for hardware, I am refitting Chalupa, #56. This boat is a member of the family that I started sailing on before I was born, so I really want to do everything right, but of course, as a poor professor that means I end up doing most of it myself since I can't afford to hire the best!

I am interested in learning about jib track placement. I noted on the Triton site that someone recommended moving the tracks forward, near the forward of the two main cabin portholes. I was wondering about possibly moving them outside to the toe rail and putting a long track or even a rub rail that would allow placing blocks anywhere along the length. While we had only a working jib, from the racing hull, I now have jibs ranging from a small storm jib to a 150% Genoa. So, from your experience I hope to learn:

1) how much performance will I lose going outside the safetly lines or should I just forget this?
2) what do you think is the best placement
3) what do you think is the best length
4) what is the best brand where both quality and price are considerations

I appreciate the feed back!

Ted

[Theis]

Good questions:

Standard issue is two tracks on either side, as you are aware. I replaced my original ones with Shaeffer tracks, but mounted largely where the old ones were. My only criticism of the original tracks is that they were too short. The forward track I use with the 100% and the storm jib and I would like it to probably be a foot longer in each direction. If you can't find the Shaeffer tracks that I mentioned above, let me know and I'll look them up for you.

The genoa track (and my genoa is a 170%), could be six inches longer in each direction.

I just find myself putting the blocks at the extreme ends too often, which infers that I need a bit longer slider.

I don't know about putting them outside the lifelines. The underside of the gunwale is a terror to work with, and I don't know how you would secure the tracks underneath without a lot of effort. Additionally, I would be concerned that you might pull the deck off the hull where the tracks are mounted, and take in water. If it only cracks that seal (and I have had this problem) the crack becomes a devil to find, is probably not visible, and is always leaking. Perhaps the one major defect in the Ariel that I am familiar with is the bond between the deck and the hull. I would not want to place stress on that bond.

The forces on the tracks can be immense. I have had a track pull through the deck (and now have substantial backing plates).

Hope this helps.

[Bill]

Here is a photo of the jib and Genoa track placement on Pathfinder. The long track takes 120 percent and up.

[Bill]

As for fastening the track, I attach an appropriate sized machine screw at each fastener opening on the track (6-inch intervals). Each nut is backed by a washer. Never had a failure.

[Theis]

Is the outside track a Shaefer? Did you have any trouble bending it? How long is the inside track? Thanks.

[Ed Ekers]

WOW! Much to my surprise I am looking at the Ariel forum this morning and find a picture of our boat. I guess someone has a key to the gate.

The track is Schafer. It is one inch racing track which just means it has more holes to set the leads. The out board track was fairly easy to install. I just drilled through the track for the first three forward holes dropped a couple of screws to hold it and then just worked my way aft. I had a helper hold the aft end of the track as I worked my way back.

The inside track is four feet long. The reason for the length is by design. I don't want to use the very ends. The normal placement is about even with the forward edge of the window. As I mentioned in a previous thread as the wind comes up to the +20 knot range we will move the lead back to open up the top of the sail. The farthest we will move the lead aft is near the aft edge of the window.

But hey how about the great looking wood! Thanks to everyone for giving me the needed advise on how to take it all apart and get it back together again....ed

[Ted]

Bill,

The picture is a big help, as is the description of the use. Is there a reason why you did not follow the line of the cabin rather than having the track veer out into the walk way on deck? I have some very nice stainless tracks, but of course they will *not* bend around the cabin and are only about 2.5' which sounds like I would regret not having longer for use with the storm jib. Lord knows I don't want to put something down and then change my mind!

Ted

[Theis]

Ed: Your vessel does look sharp. I'll give a good reason for having the longer tracks so the slider never goes to the end. When I have had the tracks pull through the deck, the slider was at the end of the run. The deck support is concentrated when the slider is at the end, whereas when the track goes further, there is more support.

After I raised the issue of the bent track, it occurred to me that you don't have lifelines and stanchions. That does change things. The stanchions would have to be inside the slider, I guess.

[Ed Ekers]

Theis, Your are correct we don't have life lines. I took them off so long ago I forgot about them. It would be a little more difficult to place the track but I think it still could be done. The nice part about how it went down for me was that I was able to follow the edge of the non skid. This gave a clean line to follow so I didn't end up with any waves.

I too have seen the ends pull up on other boats. So the outer track is set to take loads similar as the inner. For the 125% jib the leads are located three screw heads aft (9"+/-) to start and for the genoa about 18" forward of the aft end.

We also have a car that we will slide on the outer track that sets just aft of the after lower and on it we will attach a block for twingers that are use for the spinnaker.

This whole system went on about three years ago and I love it. With all that extra track we have so many more options in setting up and trimming the sails. I have looked at the Garhauer web page and drooled over their adjustable jib cars. Just can't bring myself to spend the money yet. But I assure you as soon as we go on the next loosing streak the wallet will come out and more go fast toys will be added (<: .........ed

[Bill]

Ted,

#76 uses the 2.5' ss track for its jib, as well as at the aft for a Genoa:

[Ted]

Ed,

Why did you take your safety lines off? I am very anxious to put a set on Chalupa, #56 because a) I have 2 kiddos and b) I am always envious of the people who have them on their sloops with all kind of wonderful gear hanging off of them.

Ted

[Theis]

I agree. On the Lakes here, I wouldn't be caught without lifelines (#82 didn't have them when I first bought them.) But I'd love to figure out a way to use the longer tracks and have stanchions.

[Ed Ekers]

HI Ted,
Why I took off the life lines? There are a number of reasons we don't have life lines but I guess if there needs to be one bottom line it would be to allow our jib to set as clean as possible. With the sail cut that we have it was difficult if not impossible to strap it in when going to weather.

Many if not most the Ariels I see in the San Francisco area do not have life lines. I know there is a number of opinions on the pros and cons of life lines and we have opted to take the con position. Plus to see the sheer line of and Ariel nice and clean, without the stanchions and lines and all that stuff hangin' off them, is a beautiful thing to behold in my opinion...........ed

[commanderpete]

I'm thinking of getting some new genoa tracks. Mine are flat metal bars with a thin strip of pressboard type material underneath to keep the track off the deck a little, so the genoa cars run free.

The pressboard has deteriorated and broken up, and was too thin to begin with. I was getting ready to replicate a spacer somehow.

Maybe I'll save myself some aggravation and buy tracks with the spacer molded in (T-tracks) like these
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...roductId=15525

Ed, your genoa tracks seem to be well forward. If I buy longer tracks, how would I benefit from extending them forward as you have?

[Bogle]

I have had 1" schaeffer tracks installed on the toerail for two seasons now. Much like shown above in a photo and installed as shown at http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/ttrack.htm I used 8' lengths and am very happy with the function, however:

Working jib and smaller sails need sheeting point to be more inboard for pointing close to the wind. I plan on installing 4 - 5' lengths on the cabintop (commander, remember) in line with and in place of the original jib track there.

For the working jib I use the forward end of the track for now, or the original track. My new track ends just behind the lower, aft chainplates. The aft end of the track, with another Garhauer block, is used to lead the sheet to the winches until I build a wooden stand for a cheek block as proposed and shown on my page at http://www.bway.net/~bogle/winch.html

For my 120% the sheeting angle seems suitable for pointing close, but probably could be more inboard (and I will be able to use the cabintop track for this). I considered mounting the track on the deck a few inches from the coaming, but I did not do this because of the fiberglass winch stands given to me by our generous fellow sailor, commanderpete. They extend out onto the deck from the coaming and I need a sheeting point right about there for the 150%.

David