Bilge Pump Discussions

[Theis]

All good points.

I installed the biggest Rule pump - I believe it is 3600 gph (aka 60 gpm) with a float switch. Water exits through the hull just to port of the motor shaft. My thinking was that if I needed a pump in a bad way, to save a few bucks getting a smaller pump was not a prudent choice. I believe the tube is 1 1/2".

In addition, I installed the Whale Urchin which I can't commend highly enough. Spectacular! Pumped water exits to the motor well. The pump is mounted in the cockpit, on the vertical surface (not the horizontal seat), about in line with the rudder stem. It is very easy to pump, and I don't find the up down action particularly tiring.

The reason I mounted it so far aft is so that someone who was pumping (assuming I was not sailing alone) would not get in the way of steering and navigating, etc. In other words, would be out of the way.

Lastly, I have a Thirsty mate with a hose that can reach from the bilge to the cockpit or the sink (which I also use for the dinghy), and, of course, a bucket WITH A SHORT LINE ATTACHED. The Thristy Mate is a lot of work and pumps a pittance compared with the Whale.

The electric bilge pump I do not leave operative when I leave the boat. If the leakage is that bad, the battery will be drained/dead and the results will be the same. Worse, the boat may be dry, and I won't know that there is a leak and the pump has been clicking on and off. The benefit of the float switch is that it keeps the pump from running when the bilge is dry.

[Janice Collins]

What are those metal eyebolts?? sticking up through the bilge seen on S. Airing's last post?

[S.Airing]

They are were the keel was lowered in place.

[SkipperJer]

I just bought my Commander (hull #270) in July. It has never had a bilge pump. For a number of reasons (not the least of which is the smelly black pool I just discovered in the depths of the bilge) I’m going to install an electric pump before it goes back in the water this Spring as well as carry a hand pump and a bucket.
After reading all the posts in this thread I'd like to ask for collective opinions on the best place and technique to mount the electric pump and direct the outlet.

I’ve been sailing for five years but this is my first boat so it’s OK to assume I don’t have much in the way of boat-smarts. My outboard has a generator and the boat also has a shore powered battery charger both feeding a relatively new battery.
Thanks,
Jerry McCann

[Theis]

Here is what I have done, and it works fine. I have an outboard, and as said earlier, both the Whale and the Rule 3600 ghp pump. As for the electric pump, my figuring was that if I was going to the bother to install one, for the added few bucks, why not put in the largest.

The pump and float switch are in the lowest part of the bilge, approximately alongside the sink counter (but obviously far below below), with the switch facing forward. The 1 1/2" flexible hose (as I recall - it is standard full sized for that pump - no reduction) runs under the floor board going aft, coming up next to the rudder stem, running to the top of the stern lazarette bulkhead on the starboard side, through the bulknead, down the aftside of the bulkhead under the stern lazarette floor and out a through hull fitting. The fitting is a lexan/marelon whatever fitting mounted through the hull bottom just forward of the transom. It is normally a bit above water, but can not be seen (unless you are in the water looking up). The discharge shoots down, rather than out the back which it would do if mounted through the stern.

The pump is fused with a 20 amp fuse (not the 25 recommended - because my electrical panel isn't rated for 25 amps. I have not had any trouble with the fuse failing. Make sure all electrical connectors in the bilge are the waterproof kind.

Anti siphon protection is mandatory. Do not use a check valve. For anti-siphon protection, I have done is to put a 1/8" hole in the top of the discharge tube in the stern lazaterrt at its highest point where the hose runs through the bulkhead into the stern lazarette (it is for the anti-siphon protection that I made the loop to the top of the lazarette bulkhead). When the pump runs, yes some water does come out through the little hole into the lazarette, but that area gets wet anyway. If you want to control the direction of the trickle that comes out, put a 1/8" hose in the hole and direct the water to the side (but do not drop the level of the drain hose or you will lose the anti-siphon capability.

[SkipperJer]

Thanks for the response. Like I said, I'm a boat-rookie so it generated more questions. Be patient with me while conduct a little orientation to what I found.

I have three covers in the cabin floor that access the bilge. Number one is forward of the compression post. I had some deck fitting leaks which led to an occasional puddle in this area. The gear was rebedded before it got too cold here and the leaks have stopped.

Number two is near the sink area. It sounds like your pump is installed here Theis. If the capped thru-hulls for the original head or the sink drain gave way water would head this way so that makes sense to me. But the bilge goes on for a quite a bit beyond that which starts me wondering.

Number three is under the bridgedeck just aft of where the ladder rests on the cabin floor. One can see the keel sloping back into the darkness from here.

Number four is located just aft of the winches and is cut into plywood resting over the aft bilge area. By putting a light there and peering in through panel number three I found the source of the my spouse's dislike of the boat. There is quite a bit of foul-smelling water down there (thirty-six years worth maybe). This space begs for a pump to clear it occasionally although I imagine that most of the water now there came from condensation.

In the event of a major thru-hull failure it seems this area would fill with a considerable amount of water. Landlubber logic would indicate a high-volume pump should go down there in an effort to maintain the boat on its lines as long as possible in the event of a major leak.

However, it's also clear from this discussion group that several people put their pumps under the cabin floor defying landlubber logic. Besides, even an agile small child would have trouble getting down there to put one in.

I have hit submerged objects in sailing club boats in Baltimore's Inner Harbor. No damage was done but the club's J-22's didn't have old thru-hull fittings either. I'd appreciate some input from experienced Commander owners before I start looking for that agile small child.

Thanks,
Jerry McCann

[Bill]

The cabin layout of the Ariel and Commander are qute different. The sink on the Ariel is almost directly over the low point of the bilge. In the Commander, the sink is located further forward. Most everyone locates their electric pumps at the lowest point in the bilge, regardless of the sink's location.

Standing water in the bilge has other than smelly consequences. As noted in the manual, this water can get into the hull laminate. Good idea to keep it dry down there.

[commanderpete]

The lowest part of the bilge on the Commander is reachable from floorboard # 3, right behind where the bilge drops away. Its a little difficult to work there.

Its been suggested that you could mount the bilge pump and float switch next to eachother on a small board, maybe one of those small plastic kitchen cutting boards. That would make installation easier. You could also pull the unit out a bit for cleaning and servicing.

I'm thinking of trying that, but I would want to make sure the whole unit couldn't overturn somehow.

The bilge pump wouldn't be on the very bottom of the bilge. But, bilge pumps aren't effective for getting the very last of the water out of the bilge anyway.

You're taking the right approach by preventing water from leaking into the boat in the first place.

I've never been able to achieve a truly dry and dusty bilge, even after hunting down any deck leaks. A little water will get in through the cowl vent at the bow. Also, a small amount can get in around the hatchboards in a driving rain. I won't be happy until I have cobwebs in my bilge.

A few coats of epoxy or bilgecoat paint on the bottom of the bilge is a good idea too. Whenever I do epoxy work, I prepare a section of bilge so I can smeer the excess epoxy down there.

[commanderpete]

By the way, Jerry,

You mentioned that your Commander has a bridgedeck and ladder leading up to the cockpit. I know that's how Alberg designed it, but I haven't seen any Commanders built that way.

Usually the companionway is cut out at the bottom with only one step down. Makes getting in and out easy, but more worrisome for offshore work.

Take a look at this beat up Commander someone is trying to sell on the internet.

[Bill]

If I'm recalling correctly, there are some Commanders with bridge decks. Maybe some owners will let us know if their Commander is so equipped, and tell us what hull number they have.

[Theis]

If I correctly understood what you wrote, it sounds like the layout is the same/similar to my Ariel. Is it possible that you have an Ariel hull? On the floor underneath the two steps leading up to the cockpit there is an opening, about 8"X8" I would guess (It is covered up when the steps are in place). When that lid is removed, you look right down to the deepest part of the bilge - which is where my electric bilge pump rests (and the inlet for the Whale as well). It is narrow enough there so that the pump can not tip over (the electric pump I mounted on a board per instructions). The second cover you referenced is where I store beer, and that takes priority. Beer I use frequently, the pump only once in a while.

My boat sank in the Chicago Ship and Sanitary Canal, and cleaning the bilge was the last major task. I didn't know what I would find. Ebola? I used a good strong detergent, washed it several times, and coated it with Gluvit, an epoxy that remains flexible and can take pressure from the contact side (like water trying to get in). Then took several Turkish baths.

It sounded like your fourth cover was in the motor well. Right? Wrong? (Is your boat an inboard or an outboard?) Is there any chance that the black stuff is oil from an engine that has collected over the years?

What I don't understand about that fourth cover is that if it is forward of the motor lazarette, any water would run right into the deepest part of the bilge, immediately. I clean out the boat by srpraying water under the cockpit floor and let the water drain right into the bilge, start the pump, and the whole thing is done faster than I can get out of the wet clothes.

The only place junk wouldn't drain immediately would be from the stern lazarette, which is supposed to be sealed from the main hull. It is conceivable that that lazarette has bad stuff in it and is slowly leaking into the main bilge through a leak. Is this a possiblity?

Or is this really a Commander and I'm talking about a different layout?

[Theis]

By the way, Commander Pete, I used green lumber (a 1 X 6" as I recall) for mounting the pumb on the floor of the bilge, and it fits at the bottom very snugly. The electric bilge does not drain out the last little bit. But the Whale does.

Getting all the water out of the bilge is very important. You don't want the dirty bilge sloshing around the tops of the beer cans. Your friends might get ebola (by now, of course, the skipper who has had his beer sloshed for years, is likely immune).

[Mike Goodwin]

He must have a Commander , he mentions a compression post , my Ariel dont have one .

[mrgnstrn]

somewhere along the line here, someone said that the low spot (on the ariel) is directly under the sink. on my boat it isn't there, but further back.

i have a small square hatch behind where the battery would sit, and that lets me see into the real depths of the bilge, which is even futher aft, aft even from the two lead pigs/bricks. i have attached a marked up pic. on the picture, the red line is where i approximate the bottom of the bilge to be. the two black things are the lead bricks. the blue line is where battery platform slopes back and up to the cockpit sole (ie, the floor/surface which has the sqare hatch thru which i can see the depths) the brown parts are all the hatches in my flooring, two cabin and one under/behind the sink.

it is very narrow in the depths back there. it makes me wonder if the limiting factor on electric pump capacity is the width of the pump. i have yet to install any pumps on my little boat, but that will be the first order of business, to pump out the bit of 40-year old stagnant water. (i approximate 4 gallons worth, but given the shape, could be off quite a bit). the current water level only touches the back of the deepest lead brick.

[Mike Goodwin]

I had the same problem in #45 when I got her , plus there was 6" of sludge at the bottom of the sump.Smelled like a skunk had died in there .
1st , get a wet/dry shopvac and suck all the water and crap out ( it will just clog a bilge pump).
2nd , pour in a gal of clean water and some pinesol or Simple Green or whatever and scrub with a toilet brush (long handled).
3rd , vacumn and rinse & repeat 'till she is sweet smelling .

With the vac you can get it completely dry , bilge pump will always leave a quart or 2 down there .