Commander 1964 Hull # 38

[joeniver]

I am looking for anyone on Long Island that has an Ariel or a Commander. I just got a Commander (Hull 38) for free--$250.00 to put it in my back yard.
Would love to post some pictures if anyone interested.
joe
Long Island New York (Suffolk County)

[joeniver]

I love this boat!
New to the Forum.

[mbd]

Welcome aboard Joe!

Here is a link to the POs gallery page: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5-Commander-38

I thought #38 sounded familiar...

[joeniver]

Help:
What is the least amount that needs to be done to the hull to be able to sail on April 15, 2017--I get my mooring!
thanks
Let me know if you need recent pictures

[ebb]

All you need is bottom paint and a surface to roll it on.

Depends on your surface and what has been put on there before for your choice of prep and bottom paint.

Imco dry sanding of bottom paint should be avoided. But if all you need is to smooth the surface and create tooth,
That may be your best choice. If you have a rough surface, and must dry sand, rent a Festool
HEPA vac with a Festool sander /grinder and a onepiece eye mask-fine particulate replaceable filter. You must protect
your face and lungs. ...

Find out what brand locals use. You should probably use an ablative, a bottom that wears away over one season or two.

So you won't have to sand that off when or if you decide to barrier coat -- which requires removal of all paint down to
the gel coat. Depending on the condition of your hull, a chemical peel may be the way to go. It is as messy as dry grinding is messy.
You get to choose. Best way is to hire it out!!!

On your mooring you may want to use a hard bottom paint that lasts longer but needs to be removed before the next coat.
Maybe there's one that does both. Some untried green paint that won't kill you, either rolling it on or taking it off, is now available.

Getting hauled here on the West Coast is a budget buster.

[joeniver]

Thank you for your words of wisdom EBB.

I am not sure what was put on before. Will ask Commander # 38 (this forum) if he put anything on or did nothing.

What doe it mean to create tooth?

So if I ask West Marine for an Ablative they will know what to sell me?

I am just concerned with the bottom making it thru the sailing season, April 15 +- to November 15. Then in comes back to the house for more work that i can not do at the mooring.

Getting hauled out is expensive here also. Just to haul from nearby town persons driveway to my driveway was $250.00.

[ebb]

joeniver, If you haven't done so go to your local library and borrow

THIS OLD BOAT by Don Casey
It's sub title is: Turn a rundown fiberglass boat into a firstclass yacht on a shoestring budget.

So I looked into the index and found bottom painting is talked about beginning page 351.
Now bottom painting is advise given by many, it's an ongoing and nowadays a changing subject.
Advice varies and seldom comes with step by step instructions...

This book will give you the vocabulary and warm you up to the basics.
I have an inborne prejudice against asking advise from a chain marine store.
You ought to enter the store with a few prejudices of your own.
So I'd read the few pages in This Old Boat to begin with.

Ask what a fisherman uses on his bass boat, what day racer has on his in the marina, what the former owner
used... they'll all be different. Thinner stuff will use less than thicker stuff, you need to know what kind of
bottom paint, cheap, medium, expensive. Should you go with copper paint, which will soon require a license
to use*, or a more friendly and probably more expensive less toxic stuff.
The DFO (dreaded former owner) knows exactly how much he used to do the bottom, and how long it lasted.
If you are mooring the boat, it has a different bottom than if you are hauling out for the winter.

If you don't have the book, it's a good introduction into small boat ownership...
and old guys like me have plenty of advise even if we don't know.

Of course I was referring to the every other year, or longer if you hire a diver to brush your bottom clean to
make it last another year... HAULOUT. Usually at a marina or close by -- where you are lifted out, put on a
gurney, and rolled aside to put on new bottom on for the day or two -- if you're lucky you can power wash
the bottom by yourself, or hire someone at the yard to do it, who has the equipment.
-- decide what prep is required, whether you need to scour the surface with a certain grit to provide tooth for
the paint you are using because it says so on the label or in the specs(specifications) for application. In Cali-
fornia, because of environmental laws and the toxicity of many bottom paints, you have to hire 'professionals'
to do it.
Almost every one in the Alberg fleet here on SFBay goes to a marina where you can work on your boat yerself.

OK that's enough...don't mean to patronize, the Casey book is a good place to start if you haven't already!!!

Don't know if you are located on Great South Bay, but there must be quidelines for that water if people still
fish there? We used to clam there! I know there's a WM in Babylon on Montauk Hwy, West Islip side.
Maybe they are 'local' enough to share with you, a local, what locally is correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*who's to say? With the new administration, environment is fair game again.

[joeniver]

Got my copy coming from Inter- library loan here in Suffolk County.
This guy is prolific--I especially like the last one (for my wife)--:

This old boat
Don Casey's complete illustrated sailboat maintenance manual
Sailboat hull & deck repair
Canvaswork and sail repair
Sensible cruising : the Thoreau approach; a philosophic and practical approach to cruising
Inspecting the aging sailboat
100 fast & easy boat improvements
Sailboat electrics simplified
Dragged aboard : a cruising guide for the reluctant mate

I am on the North Shore of Long Island in Rocky Point.

You helped the previous owner, Forum->Ariel-> Association->Gallery-> Commander #38
The sloop only moved a few miles.

I will get some pictures of the hull in a day or two.

[ebb]

Ebb is so opinionated he can say: that once you've dipped in, there's a whole world of fantastic

reading in both DIY and adventure... after Casey. As you see, we have here on the pages some,

or maybe we can say ALL, of the amazing Commander owners on the planet, who hopefully

will help with specifics. Know I seem to be an annoying know-it-all, of course I'm not. Not!!

I've just been around a long long time, and want to be helpful. I sometimes make bald-faced

lies just to see if anybody is actually listening, but no one has caught one. Guess I know what

that means. This forum, now that I think about it, is my shoutout window in the neighhood.


Really hope you have a great time playing with your new toy. This is a quality web site here.

Once you dig in you'll find ridiculous treasures of knowledge about your Commander.

[joeniver]

Here are some pictures of the Hull on Commander #38. I would like opinions on what should be done to sail for one season in Long Island New York.

[Bill]

If no holes, put on some bottom paint and go!

[ebb]

Why not sell her at a 100% profit for $500 to someone who wants to fix her up?

[joeniver]

Ebb! You crazy!


First of all, you are moving to Long Island for the summer and living with me. You and I will:


1. Fix up this boat to be mint condition.
2. You will teach me (I have 1 year sailing experience on 15' Chrysler Mutineer--Mutt) to sail in winds from 5 knots to 30 knots.
3. We will leave in the fall of 1917 and sail thru the Panama canal and I will deliver you to Cali-forn-ne-a (aka terminator) safe and sound.
4. And, if your training of me is STELLAR--as everyone says it will be--I will sail back to Long Island solo!


Let me know when your flight is!


joe

[joeniver]

Thanks for the response Bill.


What kind of Bottom Paint should I get. Do I just tell the West Marine salesperson that I want Bottom paint for a fiberglass boat?


thanks
joe

[ebb]

HOMEWORK: READ THE CASEY BOOK
Hey joe, like almost all of us, dive in. Diving in was the hardest thing I ever did when I
started. I'm a classic loner, but also found people to help, even when I had little help, I
found a younger naval architect working on his boat, introduced self. Don't remember
the money exchange, but obviously was reasonable enough for me to forget. He virtually
steered me through my first boat. I've always been a working stiff, so always had some
$$$. I collected books on the subject. Some were helpful in terms of actual step by step
help.... most were not. Made every mistake myself, including not protecting self well
enough from the plastic chemicals I used. As you may have seen in this Forum, I often
go to extreme lengths and huge amount of words to explain stuff, step by step, because
that is often missing from DIY books, specs, and application instructions.
However, this still rates as opinion, what I say is based on a whole older, self-schooled
way of experience, knowledge, shortcuts, and advice which could really be wrong for you.

Anyway, tackling your Commander Project is something you have to figure out. As Bill
suggests: Slap on two or three coats of bottom paint and go sailing FIRST. You know
how to sail, check out your new boat. Make lists, if you don't know something, write
that down also. BE specific. It is good advice to ask locally (someone working on their
boat, or someone in a brick and mortar marine store) what bottom paint working boats
are using in your area. Get into a conversation.
Buying the paint is the easy part.

There are certain things you should do when first working with an unknown surface.
Your Commander hull looks like it's in great shape. The rudder looks like it's been rebuilt.
Doesn't look like original wooden planks are showing. The space between rudder shaft and
keel post looks tight. You may have a rudder encased in fiberglass. Or completely 'new'.
Doesn't matter... Take a (Bahco carbide blade scraper, the large size) scraper and remove
any loose stuff. Don't dig the blade into the hull's surface until you figure out what you got.

Use the carbide to scrape a little deeper in a couple small places to see if there is a thick
white gelcoat on the hull. If there is no white, or if the white layer is very thin, you may
have a new barrier coated bottom on your boat. Don't do anything rash until you've
figured it out! Former owner available?? Original polyester color is dark translucent green.

Looks like the boat is supported OK. Just recently went on and on about boat jacks. See
if you can easily get the boat level fore-n-aft, and sideways. See if the partial waterline
showing is level. Maybe you can use the remains of what looks like the bootstripe to find
where the bottom paint ends. You might look VERY carefully for the original factory boot
stripe and waterline in that area. It would be a slightly indented scribe line, an obviously
intended line or maybe two, whose lower line is eyeball straight. They may have long ago
disappeard. Found mine on the Ariel.The top of the bootstripe often rises going forward
to the stem, appearing wider at the bow than midway. The lower line of the remains of
the bootstripe seen in your photo is the dead straight waterline, or should be.
The indent waterline is in the gelcoat. Boats moored or wintered in the water often sink
deeper in the water and eventually have their waterlines moved up. You might say they
get saturated, because that is what polyester does. However getting the water out is an
other kettle of fish, another project requiring the removal of all paint. But not gelcoat!

Once you've gotten the hull cleared of any loose stuff, you will now know if any of the
colored stuff is soft or hard. Imco if it is soft it should be removed. Soft paint is most
likely ABLATIVE bottom paint. It is chemically formulated to slough off as time in the water
progresses, removing itself and any organic growth with it. It is now very compromised.
Remove it -- if the paint can fairly easily be scraped off.

If you are going to sail in 2017, that is the kind of bottom paint you want to use. Cheaper
ablatives last the season. Expensive will last two or more depending on where you are.
Copper bottom paints are beginning to disappear because they are bad bad. But don't
go for an overpriced environmental until you are prepared and ready.

Next you want to degrease the hull where you will paint. Wipe it down with isopropyl
alcohol and lots of terry rags Use the specs on the ablative can or the data sheet you've
found using the web, and prep the hull with UNCOATED ALUMIUM GRIT sandpaper.*
Looking at your photos, it doesn't look like you have to go crazy. Just some scuffing to
provide a surface. If you are actually planning to later work on the hard on the boat,
you shouldn't need a primer. Vac dust off hull. Hose off hull or wash with warm water
and small amount detergent. Water should sheet, not gather in drops, streamlets and
islands like your newly waxed auto.
If you want, tape off the bootstripe first, use an oil enamel paint for the stripe, let dry
completely, then tape it off so you can roll the bottom on . Your top sides won't look
too bad with a nice crisp boot stripe. Or skip that - but don't put bottom there!

The hardest part is leveling the boat. Get a couple friends together,. Use a bottlejack
judicially to gain the few inches you need. Under the keel. And probably scraps of
plywood and large wood shims from the lumber store. (Great for micro adjustments).
Where you lift, the other end wants to go down. Unscrew (lower) jacks there... screw
out jacks where you lift, but block the boat (add shims) under the keel first. Fore-n-aft
first. Then use these main jacks to level port and starboard. I have assumed the boat
hasn't been leveled. Do not move the jacks if the legs have been established, move
jacks up or down by quarter turns of their screws. Do not want to destabilize the boat.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

->Figure out what caused the rust stains. They happened when the boat was out of
the water. Rust appears to be coming from the interior in the bilge area. There should
NOT be any drains in this area. The hole(s), if they are still there, must be repaired.
Something rusting in the bilge probably made the rust, but there is no logical reason
to have drainage there !!!

->The hole in the hull in the third picture should have a seacock behind it. It doesn't,
because there is no thru-hull showing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
*To do any sanding of your own on the boat, you should have a decent oscillating
sander. A 5"D Makita with an 8hole platen that draws the dust in through Bosch brand
8hole disks, might be a good choice. The pricey item to own is a Vacuum with a HEPA
filter. If you have a very fine particulate HEPA, you will be able to work with the vac inside
your boat. You also will be able to sand your boat in a marina yard if you need to. You
will have to research that, because I can only recommend the most expensive one, that
turns the tool in your hand and the vac on at the same time...
The Makita I've used with a Fein $$$ Vacuum, but they are not paired electrically, so you
must separately switch them on, and the two tools are usually widely separated working
on the hull..

Disks and regular sheet sandpapers are very often coated with latex or silicone to
make them no-clog and longer lasting. Use only closed-coat aluminum oxide uncoated or
black silicon carbide wet-or-dry. This silicon is not the silicone rubber/oil that is
anathema for all boat work. Never use clear silicone caulks on your boat!!!
Chesapeake Light Craft, Harris Oct2010
http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boat...r-roundup.html
imco, for hull work you want a sander with a handle (like a grinder). Festool is a very
expensive system, but it is the best. Skip PorterCable and Black&Decker, made in China.
This is all imco, in my considered opinion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Bisquit has good tips below, and agree with him on the ablative for a number of reasons...
but recommend ablative ONLY for joe's 2017 honeymoon with C38. If he's serious about
later bringing the Commander up to date, the bottom paint removes easily.