Sealing SeaCocks

[elliotr]

I'm in the process of buying a Ariel in Northern Michigan. I'm planning this boat as a live aboard and would like some advice on the best, easyist and quickest way to seal the sea cocks for an Ariel without an inboard. By my count, there are 5 seacocks in the hull of different sizes.

The idea of having holes in my hull is one which will keep me up into the wee hours and I'm simply not interested in the features Seacocks might offer. Is this some thing that absolutely must be done with fiberglass or is there a type of epoxy cock I can use.

I've only located one of the internal inlets inside the boat and am not sure what what internal connections the others have but I've posted photos. I imagine the best course would be to seal the piping it's self from the inside using a marine sealant.

[SkipperJer]

The boats were built with 5 thru-hulls. Two for the toilet (raw water in, waste/water out). They will be the foremost two--one port, one starboard. Since these types of heads are no longer legal, I cut them out and followed the procedure for beveling out the perimeter of the holes and filling with fiberglass and epoxy. Don Casey will tell you how in Good Old Boat or most yards would find this a relatively routine task. I had some experienced folks looking over my shoulder when I did mine and it went fine.

Going further aft there will be one for the sink. In the Commanders its to starboard. I'm not sure where for the Ariel. If you are living aboard you need the sink. There are two more further aft for the cockpit scuppers. Scupper seacocks left closed can unbalance the boat in heavy rain or seas as the cockpit will fill with water. If things get serious enough for water in the cockpit to go over the bridgedeck to the cabin then sinking is not out of the question. You can see a previous post of mine about being swamped by a careless power boater. The scuppers cleared the water quickly. If closed in storage they can also lead to build ups of ice that can damage the boat. I repaired stress cracks in my Commander's cockpit walls that resulted from the previous owner not keeping the scupper lines clear. There were hundreds of pounds of ice in the cockpit for months. Most Ariels and Commanders use straight hose and double clamps from the scupper tubes and sink to the thru-hull tubes.

Here in Baltimore I leave my boat in the water through the winter every other year and have survived well even when the boat was surrounded by ice. I check the hoses at least once a month and replace them every two years. Every time I do it I debate whether or not I should wait another two years since all the gear looks virtually new. So far, I've replaced it every time. There are plenty of other Ariels and Commanders in my area and they all use hose and double clamps. They don't replace as often as I do. None have sunk.

Go sailing.

[ebb]

Read the thread "New fangled hoses and seacocks" on the tech forum here.

However, it can be difficult to locate threads in the Ariel Association Forums that have migrated to the archives.
So, what you do is type
Pearsonariel.org seacocks
into google and that thread will immediately appear at the top of the first page,
and gets you directly in.
Good place to start.

[elliotr]

Thank you both for this information. I had trouble finding in relevant information on Google until your search term guidance so thanks ebb. SkipperJer, I hadn't thought of the back thru-hulls being used to empty the cockpit. I'll definitely be keeping those then.

Where are the cockpit's thru-hull hoses? There is a large cavity below the cock pit of the boat I'm buying where a outboard would go if it was that model of Ariel. Are the hoses for the cockpit down there(if a commander has one too) or are they in the storage seats in the cockpit?

[ebb]

Don't launch that boat until you get the cocpit hose thing worked out.
Pearson had no seacocks for the cockpit drains which are below the bridge deck
in the hull, UNDERWATER.

[elliotr]

Don't launch that boat until you get the cocpit hose thing worked out.
Pearson had no seacocks for the cockpit drains which are below the bridge deck
in the hull, UNDERWATER.

Are you saying the thru-hulls in the back of the boat connect directly to the cavity below the cockpit?

[Bill]

Go to this thread and check post #27 for a photo of the under cockpit layout.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...nk-drain/page2

[ebb]

elliotr, sir,
But maybe the confusion is what you DON'T have in the Cavity under the companionway.

The square opening you go thru to get inside the cabin is the (Companionway.)
The seat in the cockpit that extends across the width of the boat in front of the opening is the (Bridgedeck.)

On the floor of the cockpit in the corners of the bridgedeck and the side seats you'll find two holes
which are the cockpit drains. They are approximately 1½" in diameter.

Climb inside the cabin with a flashlight, squat down facing the back of the boat and look in under the cockpit.
(It sounds like you do not have an engine there?)

Look just inside the opening in the plywood. (Bulkhead)
Looking on either side of the curved cavity: (Bilge.)....
you should see - fairly close to the plywood bulkhead - corresponding holes, holes with thru-hulls installed in them,
or maybe fiberglass tubes, that obviously are a match for the corner openings above in the cockpit deck.
Originally these holes (thru-hulls) had short up-right fiberglass tubes connected to the hull.

Those tubes or thru-hulls, and the similar but shorter tubes underneath the cockpit drain holes
...should be connected together with hose
...as you see in the photos Bill has pointed out.

The seacocks (marine valves) in 'Bill's' photos are installed over holes in the hull that have thru-hull fittings in them.
(You posted a photograph of one on the outside of your hull, called a mushroom head thru-hull.)
This is probably a metal fitting. If you have two of these symetrically placed (across from each iother) in your bilge,
(a second mushroom head thru-hull on the other side of your hull outside)
they have been added later by a former owner.

The fiberglass tubes mentioned in the paragraph above are original installations by the Pearson factory.
These tubes have hoses directly clamped to them. Factory original installation had no seacocks, no shut-off valves.
If you do not have fiberglass tubes fiberglassed to the hull now, then someone attempted, or accomplished, an upgrade.
If you have thru-hull fittings installed on both sides of the bilge (just under the cockpit drains) and no hoses,
then the upgrade is NOT complete.
If you have thru-hulls in the bilge that are not obviously the cockpit drain system described here,
they could be for other uses.
For example, the former owner may have added one dedicated thru-hull, on the port side, for the sink drain, as an upgrade.
There may be another, probably smaller thru-hull as a salt-water source for the sink. BOTH should be protected with seacock valves.

It sounds like, from your descriptions, that there are no hoses connecting cockpit drains to the thru-hulls in the hull..
The seacock in your photo is in a position that is not familiar to me. The cut-out in the access panel, if that is what it is, and the flatness of
the hull are unfamiliar also. That seacock may not be for a cockpit drain.

There is no way around not having cockpit drains. The Pearson factory directed them conventially thru the hull underwater.
ALL parts of the cockpit drain system should be in perfect working order to ensure the boat doesn't sink.
Adding seacocks is often the modern skipper's first priority in safety upgrades. If something happens to the hose, the hole can be shut OFF!

Describe back what you see, OK?.....if you want further tips.
Photos will be extremely helpful!!!
[I apologize if any of this sounds patronizing. Trying to spread out the problem to get a look at it.]

[elliotr]

I'm not insulted by your comments at all. Thank you greatly for the information. I'll report back when I see the boat next.

By the way, the images I included are in the front of the boat to the left of the head. On the starboard side right across from the seacock in the included image is this beauty of a fix. Does this fix look remotely normal to seal a thru-hull hole?

Thanks again.

[elliotr]

here's the image.

[ebb]

Can't say what that is. Like looking at a galaxy, but not knowing what part of the sky it's in!

Most repairs to former holes are made to look as if the holes were never there....almost.
A squared off 'plate' like you have there is unusual.
Most plates are included in a new thru-hull instalation to beef up the immediated area around the hole.
Most back-up plates are circular, because that shape is easiest to fit to the curves of the hull.

What is it doing there? Covering up a circular hole, as a fix? Or covering up some damage of some sort? In terms of fiberglass repair, it is strange.
I would poke it with an icepick to see if it moves! Of course, what I mean is to see what the nebula (thing) is glued on with.
The runny white stuff could be 2-part plastic - either polyester or epoxy. If it's hard, it's plastic, rather than rubber, say. When you abrade the material at the join of the plate and the hull (what the plate seems to be glued on with) and it SMELLS sweet.... it could be polyester.
Polyester is a clue that it could be original. However, some blow-hard experts have been known to advise skippers to repair their boats with polyester....

polyester is not a glue (epoxy is a glue).
Former owner may have attempted a fix with polyester, sure hope not....because you will have to fix the fix!!
Polyester is the material used to construct the hull. At the time of building Pearson was able to glue and encapsulate on to the interior of the hulll various strips of wood (stringers, cleats) to attach furniture and cabinets (settees and lockers) to fresh polyester.
For instance, our Ariel has long pieces of wood attachted to the hull in the cabin that the shelves (shelves) rest on.
This structural member is reinforced with fiberglass, and may not look like a strip of wood anymore. They used fiberglass batting (mat) to build-up, glue and cover (encapsulate) wood to the hull. Plywood bulkheads are Tabbed to the hull with fiberglass cloth or roving.

In areas of the boat that are out of sight, no paint was used to cover construction by the factory.
While that creature in your photo looks like a former owner's contribution (because it's maybe funkier than what Pearson did), it could possibly be something original with the boat.
My Ariel #338 came with a porto-pottie, Had no hard plumbing for the head.
Don't know the history of our boats like Commador Bill....but some models obviously had wet plumbing, and yours (as evidenced by your thru-hull photo) is one of them. Could still be a former owner's addition.
See if you can find out if that rectangular piece of whatever is covering over something. I don't think so...
Could it just be a piece of wood used to hold something? Like a prop or stand-off for the head's waste holding tank in the V-berth? OR a fresh water tank. Maybe one or both were removed?

50 year old boat...anything is possible.
Back your photos off a bit to give the object in question a bit of reference to what's around it...
Like they say in real estate: location, location, location.

Somebody else here on the board will know for sure.

[elliotr]

I noticed a similar setup on this thread ( http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...riel-97/page10 ) on post 139. On my boat the unidentified galaxy blob would be on the right where the smaller seacock is, the seacock on the left looks similar to my first image.

On this page ( http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...launching+boat ) post number 16 is what I believe you were talking about, thruhull drains for the cockpit?

[ebb]

elliotr,
carbonsoup's Ariel 97.....pg7 Post 139: Forward V-berth (raw water IN/black water OUT) seacocks for head. Illegal, most populated waters.
Post 140: Aft cockpit bulkhead with strange PVC pipe instead of hose connecting to factory fiberglass tube thru-hulls. Not recommended.

Tony G's Fruits...... Post 40: Factory original port fiberglass tube with T for the sink drain. Not recommended.
Post 16: Fiberglass tube thru hull starboard side. Both under the cockpit.
Unbelievable funky Pearson workmanship.


You can see in the photos why Pearson decided to cheat and build-in fiberglass tubes.
The hull where the drain thru-hulls have to be put makes a bad angle to the corner drains overhead... if conventional seacocks are installed.
When glassing the tubes in - they adjusted them to a better angle to make hose bends easier to connect a pair of drains.
Can't do that with seacocks. The system is designed for hose and clamp, but space is very tight. And recommended marine hose very stiff.

Seacock's are always installed flat against the hull. Typical hose connect is straight, connecting hose at 90° to the hull.
Some seacock manufacturers have 45° & 90° right angle tailpipe choices. Choose and buy a single manufacturer's system.
The thru-hull fitting also has to be installed perfectly flat against the hull outside. How the fitting fairs to the hull influences how the valve is positioned inside where its base diameter makes it necessary for a flat back-up plate to spread the fastening load on the hull. The plate is often glued to the hull with thickened epoxy to help position the thru-hull fitting and the seacock into permanent alignment. This aids in sealing the hole in the boat.

If Pearson had put in seacocks - as they should have - under the cockpit,
they probably (with the hose they had available at the time) would not have - and within the tight space - been able to make the torturous twist and turn required to get the hose to slip over both drains. If the hose is unyielding and doesn't connect fairly (is crooked on the fitting), it will create constant stress on fitting and hose that might give, break or crack, leak or pop off at any time.

That is the only good reason for the inferior decision Pearson made... to go with such a dangerous and risky compromise
... to go without seacocks on underwater connections...especially for an Alberg that was sold as a capable off-shore racer-cruiser.
Draining the sink to an under waterline T in a cockpit drain is equally unprofessional - as the bottom of the sink bowl is constantly inches away from the waterline.
And in saltwater, sink fittings will and have corroded dangerously. Can sink the boat.
Have to remember: Drain hoses that lead below the waterline always have water in them, they never empty.
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Imco, seacocks in the Ariel can be installed slightly aft in the same area as the originals
and 45° barb fiitings from the top of the valves used to make a simple sweep of 'constant immersion' marine hose to the cockpit drains.
Factory tubes are removed, the holes in the hull restored in a traditional way with fiberglass and epoxy, described elsewhere in the Forum.
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►For more and fuller discussions on SEACOCKS.....look in the Technical archives for: Sink sinks ship. AND: New Fangled Hoses & Seacocks◄
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just for fun: http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_se...les/5yearplan/ GoodOldBoat Vol 5, #4, July/August 2002
Budget Boating by Bill Sandifer. Here's the five-year plan that rescued a $1,200 boat. A PEARSON ARIEL.