Boarding Ladders

[ebb]

Somebody has mentioned it.
Ariels and Commanders probably all have an OB or an inboard.

The issue is: Don't think of mounting the boarding ladder on the stern!
At least don't end there with your thinking.

It'll never happen. But there will come a time when a leg or foot will get chewed up by a propeller.
Of course it won't happen when you're in control.
Tell yourself you're always in charge
and put your soft, or hard, boarding ladder where Scott has it, at the forward end of the cockpit.

Reread Ed's and Bill's original posts here, #9, #10.
A strong stanchion, or two, some kind of strong point always there, a handle above the coaming, will enable the person climbing aboard to haul herself onto the deck.
Ed says, do a MOB practice EVERY SEASON. Practice using the ladder as a safety device. But also to get out of the water.
Make it something you are very familiar with.
On a calm sunny Sunday morning. In the cold dark dead of night.



If you use an auto inflatable PFD as part of your regular sailing gear, simply
JUMP in with ALL your gear on. Shoes/boots, pants, jacket/parka, hat - EVERYTHING.
With that pfd bladder on your chest, inflated in your face.... see how you do....
Getting the ladder deployed , getting into the ladder, hauling yourslf up, grabbing whatever to get a leg on the boat, the whole 900 pounds.
Don't do it alone, you'll probably need help.

Then rearm the PFD with a new CO2 cylinder and seltzer pill. You should rearm the PFD EVERY SEASON, at least once a year.
Yourbody's life depends on it.


MUSTANG PFD RECALL
U.S.Coast Guard issued a recall (11/29/11) for some 22lb Mustang PFDs, look it up! They are MD2010 and MD2012 models that do not have next generation MIT logos on them. The CO2 bottles are not at fault, but the 'inflator assembly', something the factory has to test and fix. The Mustang site says there are no shipping costs there or back again.
It also looks like Mustang was aware of the problem before the USCG got involved and BOTH initiated the recall.

[Commander 147]

I've been thinking for a while now where I will put my boarding ladder. I want a permanently mounted ladder that will allow access to the boat from the water even if it is not deployed prior to getting into the water. On my previous boat I had a line that secured the ladder in the up position that hung low enough that it could be reached from the water. By simply pulling on this line I was able to release the knot that secured it and also pull it down to board. I would like to do something similar on Destiny.

As the saying goes with real estate it's all about "location, location, location" and if I don't want to go on the stern (and I don't) I have very limited choices. I plan on installing a genoa track on the toe rail that goes from just behind the aft lower shroud back approx 9 feet. So this entire area is off limits. So my current thought on location is just forward of the lower forward shroud. As you climb aboard you have the shroud to hang onto to assist in boarding. And on my boat once you get up a ways you will be able to reach my extra long handrail to step aboard.I plan to install a ring in the shroud that the line securing the ladder will be tied to.

So do any of you see any problems with this location that I am not seeing? Or have suggestions for other options?

[ebb]

Jerry,
and others on board with this problem.....there is a great discussion on the thread >Jib Track Placement< which serves to remind us of other stuff like sheet leads, and even track placement, that need to be considered for actual sailing.

One I remembered, when you suggest the MOB ladder HAS to be placed somewhere, somehow
at the shrouds. (where else?) ....on the Ariel for sure the staysail sheet leads between the front and mid shrouds to the cockpit. So there is sheet lead IN the shrouds as well to consider.
On the Jib Track Placement thread, whether track is put on top of the toerail or beside it is also discussed.
The genoa track essentially extends from the aft shrouds back to the sheet winches.

If we are persuaded that placing the boarding ladder on the sides of the boat, that real estate, as you point out, is pretty well spoken for. A pretty crowded street! Even a roll-up attached to the outside of the toerail might get in the way.

The shrouds with some thought could be useful for the grab and haul out feature needed to get the human frame out of the water. This location could be used for casual and MOB use with some clever thinking. Don't want to down play the safety side of this, imco, getting back on board the boat from the water in all conditions is vital. Sail handling equally so.
If the forward and aft shrouds went to the masthead and the center shroud to the spreaders, the upgrade would be a piece of cake.

Slightly taller chafe rollers on all six shrouds might be acceptable AND add some meat to get fingers around, 3/16"/1/4" wire isn't grabbable really, the chafe tubes might be the answer.

Having a fold down tube ladder might also be aestheically OK resting in the shrouds. At the moment I can't 'see' how it's rigged. There are usually no stanchions nearby to lash the fold-down ladder to.
Not so much to lash it but provide a two point aspect to protect it from lines and feet traffic.
At least a formal hard ladder is something to aim for.

If you are installing lifelines, and they become visually part of your presentation, that eye line might make it OK to install extra stanchions just inside of the foward shroud and the after shroud. They might, maybe by also using the mid-shroud as a sort of brace point, be used to mount a strong folding tube ladder. It'll be a busy bunch of stuff, especially on a Commander. And how elaborate and easy to use depends on the ages of your crew. This idea can be developed whether you have lifelines or not, as the extra stanchions would be dedicated only to mount the ladder. Ladders? arguement for both sides?

I'm just BSing here. Could see if the ladder as a unit could be slid onto the two bare stanchions and somehow stabilized if needed with the center shroud. Could be strong and offset outboard weight lever. Just thinking that if the safety ladder could easily be put on and taken off it would more likely be used when a special occasion needed it. It might just be too buzy for some to always have it there when sailing - but nice when needed.

I'm also putting genoa track on. Not sure if I'm there yet with the ladder gear idea, but it may become the only way to do it. A roll ladder is still viable, more compact and lighter. I think here I half joked that a modified cargo net rolldown would be more suited for an old gent because it would have a hundred and twenty grab and foot holds of life-saving entanglements. I imagined a GI version of Scott's rollup ladder of at least 4' long, and maybe 8' in length unrolled!
Need a long ladder. If the boat is moving, and I"m grabbing, my weight will be pulled sideways and my bulk could very easily wrench a long stainless tube ladder into a difficult to repair pretzel.

Would also mess with the expensive paint job.


How are you going to solve the quandary???

[Commander 147]

You know Ebb I was thinking about my previous post after I posted it and it occured to me that putting the ladder forward of the forward lower shroud would not be a good idea. It would constantly snag the genoa lines and be a real Pita. And I will not have life lines on Destiny so no stantions to mount to.

Your suggestion of tucking the ladder between shrouds currently seems like the only real solution. That would allow the shrouds to keep the lines from snagging the ladder. And if you used a telescoping ladder similar to the first link below it might not look tooooo ugly sitting there. It could be a little awkward coming aboard because the shrouds are so close together. You may need to swing around either forward or aft to board outside of the shrouds.

http://www.meijer.com/s/seasense-tel...der/_/R-192348

Some other ladder sites I've looked at.

http://www.up-n-out.com/boat-ladders/

http://www.boatdepot.com/productdeta...part=SS-008710

http://www.aquaperformance.com/

http://myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=1040

[ebb]

I think the inconvenience of the rigging in your face coming aboard from the ladder
will be offset by the relief of getting there.
There's a couple of stages. You have to do at least a preliminary mock up
to see if you can stand how it looks, or excuse its looks because it's absolutely necessary.
The Mystic Foldaway is probably one you assume will work as designed.
It most certainly is the heaviest, most substantial, and most expensive.
You may have to choose that one because it's the only one that'll be anywhere near complimentary with your work!

I don't know how a vertical fold-up could work without adding the extra stanchions to mount it on. Free-standing - no wire.
The stanchions lining up with the orginal chainplates might put the foldaway inside the beam of the boat. Great for coming along side. Mystic website shows the ladder attached to the genoa track. Extra $$ for the track clips, 316, heavy wall 1"D tube, That's the right stuff - weight unknown. But it's also a lot of shiney metal! There may be other attachment options.

Only when deployed would it be extended over the topsides. Because the Mystic folds hingelike it would be easier to mount then a telescoper which pulls straight down and would need to be mounted outsde the boat's beam. The telescoping Seasense is 18-8 or 304 and surely will rust immediately. China. I'd hold out for a real one, but the design is bad for any stainless.
Though it also - with a custom bracket - could be designed to swing down from vertical hinged on the toerail and then detelescoped from the water to deploy. A four stepper might be all you need to get near two steps in the water. 50#! Cheap.

If you find something that looks OK and fits, the other stuff comes natural, maybe track or a rail to grab on the cabin roof will be the all important third handhold to get safely aboard.

Somebody else has to chime in and suggest using the bow to get onboard!
But until then, Jerry, this Ariel owner thinks you have the best and safest location for lit'lgull MOB ladder(s). Mounting a ladder on the stern means only one, so sides logically requires two. Remember, you'll need it on the side that doesn't have it!

I really like the ingenious UP-N-OUT bent rod ladder. A 316 5 stepper is about half the price of a Mystic 5 step, rod is not hollow but wouldn't surprise me if it was half the weight. Unknown. Still pricey, free shipping, which is a huge cost addon these days.
When I met Dave the UP-N-OUT inventor at the boat show he was a mom-n-pop. Maybe he still actually makes them, as back then. The ladder is customed to the boat, indeed to the spot on the boat you have for it. You'll like the ladder, but may need to see it befor you buy. It definitely stacks different. Don't think it can be mounted in the rigging. Might have a nylon or sunbrella case made for it, open on the bottom from whence it deploys, that would keep lines out it, make it more neat & anonymous or more acceptable like the life ring, or sail bag, or fenders.......and have its own spot just forward or aft of the shrouds. Ormounted on the cabin side. Ariel couldn't do it but maybe Commander could!
(Think I'll wait for the in the water boat show here in April, check to see if he has a booth, and go with options, measurements and questions to see where the bundle will fit.) This up-n-go has all the ear marks for being a rugged, maintenance-free piece of cruising gear - looks righton to me.
imco it will quickly become accepted as one of the crew!

If we have a slip in a marina, or anywhere for that matter, and if the ladder is permanently installed - it will get stolen, no ifs.
SO if the ladder is easy to remove (like slipping over two permanent stanchions) it will be unslipped and stored below when nobody's aboard.

Really interested to see what you come up with.

[Full and By]

Hello! Boarding ladders are not an optional piece of gear to be stored in a locker, in my opinion. This is especially true if you do any single handing, even for an hour sail in good weather.

They need to be deployable from the water, and ready at a moment's notice. I have mounted a 4-step telescoping ss ladder on the deck at the transom that straddles the backstay. When sailing, it is in the "stowed" position, vertical, resting against the backstay (not secured!). It is stable there in any weather because it is "over center". I tie a length of light line to the bottom rung..and the line has a practice golf ball on the end that dangles a few inches above the water over the transom. If you stumble overboard, you can swim to the transom and give the golf ball a yank...down comes the ladder.

The companion gear that makes it foolproof is a lifeline running fore and aft in the cockpit 6 " above the cockpit floor, and secured at both ends by a bow eye attached to the bridgedeck bulkhead and the aft cockpit bulkhead. Clip your harness onto that lifeline and you can move forward past the mast (I have a roller furling jib), down below for a cold one, on the afterdeck, etc. If you go over, even with the autopilot humming and you're going 5 knots...the boat passes you by and the tether swings you back right behind the transom....where the ladder is. It works, I've used it underway, and fortunately it was there. The biggest problem I experienced was moving around with my inflated inflatable. I'll try to post pics.

[Full and By]

...and I don't have lifelines or pulpits. They're for sale.

[Full and By]

I'm new here and I'll figure out how to post pics soon...but there are some here...the last ones are of the boarding ladder http://www.facebook.com/bill.mcgraw1?sk=photos

[Full and By]

I't pretty easy to mount but it will require backing blocks underneath the deck and some fitted blocks for the forward bolt on each side as the ladder mounting plates are longer than the elevated portion of the afterdeck. It does not interfere with the lazerett function. Note the ball at the end of the line near the water....

[Full and By]

This ladder is exceedingly stiff in use and it's heavily built. It requires no attachment to or brace against the transom itself but relies on the considerable deck rigidity at the toerail and the beefy brackets. We used it all last summer while swimming (I'm 225lbs) and once when we really had to. It works well.

[Commander 147]

I like the way it does not rest against the transom and scratch it up. It is one of the ladders I looked at but it was only rated at 200 Lbs. and I weigh 212. It is good to hear that it seems plenty strong even with it's rating.

My biggest problem with mounting a ladder on the transom is I did not want to cover any of it up and your solution appers to keep the transom clear. And the back stay gives you something to hold onto when climbing aboard. Thanks for posting the pictures it certainly gives me something to think about.

The way Ebb has done his outboard on his boat this solution would not work for him. But Destiny will have an inboard electric drive and a prop in the aperature at the end of the keel. Quite a bit further away than an outboard prop would be. Hmmmm....

[Full and By]

Jerry,

The line running the length of the cockpit is crucial to the function of the ladder as a "rescue' device. Without the tether to pull you next to the ladder, you won't catch it if you're underway.

The line is fore and aft, about 8 inches from the cockpit floor and about 3 inces from one side or the other. I use a line about the size of a dockline for the boat, pulled tight with a trucker's hitch on one end and an spliced eye on the other. It doesn't get in the way when you're sailing and it seems you never know it's there in good weather.

I also added full length cabintop handrails, replacing the short ones that were original. I don't have lifelines forward so the handrails are welcomed and don't seem obtrusive to my eye.

The original lifelines, forward, terminated at pad eyes on the deck about 30% of the way forward from the fwd lowers to the bow pulpit....meaning that you don't have lifelines forward as a practical matter, even with the boat equipped with them. This free space over the toe rail is so that the genoa can clear the foredeck when tacking.

[Commander 147]

was going to have handrails full length of the cabin top!! I built these a while back.

[Full and By]

Really nice job on the handrails, Jerry! They look easy to make...but it's not at all easy to get them right! and you did. I admit to buying them because I made them once for my Tartan 27.

In this picture, you can see the forward termination of the safety line in the cockpit near the bottom right of the photo. It's like a dog run.... Clip-in with your 6 ft. tether, and you can roam from the mast to the transom, and down below...while the shackle slides fore and aft along the 9 ft cockpit.

I've spent weeks at a time clipped into this type of arrangement in open ocean transits in all kinds of weather and you get accustomed to it; it becomes effortless. It's especially nice in the Commander cockpit...long, unobstructed, and on a small boat. Cheap and easy to install.

[Full and By]

Turned out...the lifeline is in the "top, right"...you get the idea!